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Dukath	Posted - 2004.11.11 11:57:00 - [1] First of all I post this here and not in the ideas lab simply because its not a 'new' idea. It has been discussed a lot of times with both sides refusing to budge from their standpoint. Pros and cons ahve been discussed (although no input from the devs as far as i know). Because I still believe there is a big problem with logging off in space, it being abused more than used normally I believe I have found a compromise that would mitigate the downsides while having a very positive effect on the game. Lets talk about the current problems now. People mass log off as soon as a hostile gets within a couple of jumps. Some dock but most simply safespot and log off. As soon as the hostile leave they log on again and continue what they were doing. In fact they are abusing a out of game method to hide from their enemies. I think this is the major gripe of having non-persistent ships and not so much the 'login ganks', although they are part of the same problem. The ships hide using out of game mechanics until it is time for action. Having persistent ships would in fact remove the out of game hiding. They could still hide and rely on a hard to find safespot but that would only be a temporarily solution (like when you have a RL emergency you need to take care of, unless its something really serious you would always be back in time before the safespot can be located). On the other hand there are people who do log off in good faith. They move to deep 0.0 space, 10 jumps from the nearest station (although with the player owned stations and POS these systems will become increasingly rare). After playing a bit they log off, no hostiles in sight. With persistent ships there is a possibility that they'll lose their ships to a dedicated safespot buster. Persistent ships in this case would hurt the casual player too much. So how do you allow casual gamers in deep space while not allowing people to abuse logging off as an out of game mechanic to hdie from your opponent. Make ships persistant in systems that are near stations. Any person who logs of within X (lets say 4 as example) systems from the nearest station will have his ship stay persistant in space. This will not affect the small corporations who do deep space mining operations or some lone guy doing some NPC hunting. People who need to log off close and are close to a station have 3 options: 1) go to the station and dock (max 4 jumps¦ 2) log off and take a risk 3) move out away from the station and log off there, your ship will disappear then. (max 4 jumps) If you don't care which it is then you will have to do a maximum of 2 jumps to safely log off (as soon as you stay on the edge of a cluster of conquerable stations) There are of course some catches here. Player conquerable stations: These are stations where you can dock. The proposed scheme would actually give a slight advantage to the defending alliance/corporation since enemies will most likely not be able to dock. So the deeper they penetrate your alliance space the less likely that they can find a system away from stations or find a station where they can dock. Since the hostile people now take a risk when logging off in space they will either have to dock or move out. This will reduce the amount of logged off alt-fleets in alliance space whose sole purpose is to retake stations and annoy the hell out of the established alliances. Of course these fleets will still exist, only the alliance will have a slighty better chance at defending from them. While I would prefer fully persistent ships (at least in 0.0 space) I would accept a compromise and this is why I make this post. To see if people are willing to give up some safety to remove some very bad problems from the game.
Dukath	Posted - 2004.11.11 11:57:00 - [2] First of all I post this here and not in the ideas lab simply because its not a 'new' idea. It has been discussed a lot of times with both sides refusing to budge from their standpoint. Pros and cons ahve been discussed (although no input from the devs as far as i know). Because I still believe there is a big problem with logging off in space, it being abused more than used normally I believe I have found a compromise that would mitigate the downsides while having a very positive effect on the game. Lets talk about the current problems now. People mass log off as soon as a hostile gets within a couple of jumps. Some dock but most simply safespot and log off. As soon as the hostile leave they log on again and continue what they were doing. In fact they are abusing a out of game method to hide from their enemies. I think this is the major gripe of having non-persistent ships and not so much the 'login ganks', although they are part of the same problem. The ships hide using out of game mechanics until it is time for action. Having persistent ships would in fact remove the out of game hiding. They could still hide and rely on a hard to find safespot but that would only be a temporarily solution (like when you have a RL emergency you need to take care of, unless its something really serious you would always be back in time before the safespot can be located). On the other hand there are people who do log off in good faith. They move to deep 0.0 space, 10 jumps from the nearest station (although with the player owned stations and POS these systems will become increasingly rare). After playing a bit they log off, no hostiles in sight. With persistent ships there is a possibility that they'll lose their ships to a dedicated safespot buster. Persistent ships in this case would hurt the casual player too much. So how do you allow casual gamers in deep space while not allowing people to abuse logging off as an out of game mechanic to hdie from your opponent. Make ships persistant in systems that are near stations. Any person who logs of within X (lets say 4 as example) systems from the nearest station will have his ship stay persistant in space. This will not affect the small corporations who do deep space mining operations or some lone guy doing some NPC hunting. People who need to log off close and are close to a station have 3 options: 1) go to the station and dock (max 4 jumps¦ 2) log off and take a risk 3) move out away from the station and log off there, your ship will disappear then. (max 4 jumps) If you don't care which it is then you will have to do a maximum of 2 jumps to safely log off (as soon as you stay on the edge of a cluster of conquerable stations) There are of course some catches here. Player conquerable stations: These are stations where you can dock. The proposed scheme would actually give a slight advantage to the defending alliance/corporation since enemies will most likely not be able to dock. So the deeper they penetrate your alliance space the less likely that they can find a system away from stations or find a station where they can dock. Since the hostile people now take a risk when logging off in space they will either have to dock or move out. This will reduce the amount of logged off alt-fleets in alliance space whose sole purpose is to retake stations and annoy the hell out of the established alliances. Of course these fleets will still exist, only the alliance will have a slighty better chance at defending from them. While I would prefer fully persistent ships (at least in 0.0 space) I would accept a compromise and this is why I make this post. To see if people are willing to give up some safety to remove some very bad problems from the game.
Dukath	Posted - 2004.11.11 11:59:00 - [3] I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again.
Dukath	Posted - 2004.11.11 11:59:00 - [4] I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:08:00 - [5] I agree, tho the system of where one could safely log is discutable of course. Personally, I'd say introduce one point per few systems or something where people can safely log. Some kind of natural cloaking device thing should be rp-able. Anyway, the lack of persistence coupled with the easy of logging on and off without repercussions is currently killing alliance warfare. There should be ways to force people form a territory over time. Currently the ways are too limited. However I fear CCP has already chosen against with the new methods/modules that enhance safespotbusting or seem designed to do so. Together with the bug/mechanic that disabled all slots when logging on in space. These ways are flawed imo, and will do nothing to solve the problems presented by the lack of persistence. If you can trace safespots, people will just log off even more. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:08:00 - [6] I agree, tho the system of where one could safely log is discutable of course. Personally, I'd say introduce one point per few systems or something where people can safely log. Some kind of natural cloaking device thing should be rp-able. Anyway, the lack of persistence coupled with the easy of logging on and off without repercussions is currently killing alliance warfare. There should be ways to force people form a territory over time. Currently the ways are too limited. However I fear CCP has already chosen against with the new methods/modules that enhance safespotbusting or seem designed to do so. Together with the bug/mechanic that disabled all slots when logging on in space. These ways are flawed imo, and will do nothing to solve the problems presented by the lack of persistence. If you can trace safespots, people will just log off even more. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
EveJunkie	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:33:00 - [7] Dont want to throw your thread off track Dukath but wouldnt a simpler system just be to just extend the time before the ship disapears. Make it like 30mins to 1 hour after logging off. Folks out solo hunting in deep 0.0 arent likly to be found as theyre so out of the way. On the other hand logging a fleet in a hostile system would be very dangerous with the new scanning probes coming in shiva. Its not full persistance just longer than what we have now. I doubt it would take must coding to just extend the timer that we have already.
EveJunkie	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:33:00 - [8] Dont want to throw your thread off track Dukath but wouldnt a simpler system just be to just extend the time before the ship disapears. Make it like 30mins to 1 hour after logging off. Folks out solo hunting in deep 0.0 arent likly to be found as theyre so out of the way. On the other hand logging a fleet in a hostile system would be very dangerous with the new scanning probes coming in shiva. Its not full persistance just longer than what we have now. I doubt it would take must coding to just extend the timer that we have already.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Joshua Foiritan on 11/11/2004 12:41:31 Yay now i too can lose my ship whenever i dont have time to run to a station if something happens in real life. Youll see corps pop up in time with the sole purpose of up ships that belong to people who are offline. No thanks, i dont play this game just so i can come home and find out ive lost my battleship. Edit: Warp Scrambled ships should stay in space untill theyre unscrambled btw. Watching your target go poof after 2 minutes aint a lot of fun. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:36:00 - [10] Edited by: Joshua Foiritan on 11/11/2004 12:41:31 Yay now i too can lose my ship whenever i dont have time to run to a station if something happens in real life. Youll see corps pop up in time with the sole purpose of up ships that belong to people who are offline. No thanks, i dont play this game just so i can come home and find out ive lost my battleship. Edit: Warp Scrambled ships should stay in space untill theyre unscrambled btw. Watching your target go poof after 2 minutes aint a lot of fun. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Riddari	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:50:00 - [11] It's a game Go to a war country if you want to be a persistent target even while sleeping. ¼©¼ a history
Riddari	Posted - 2004.11.11 12:50:00 - [12] It's a game Go to a war country if you want to be a persistent target even while sleeping. ¼©¼ a history
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Dukath I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again. Half of your modules would be offline if your fitting exceeded basic grid/cpu. Although that wouldn't be so bad either.
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Dukath I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again. Half of your modules would be offline if your fitting exceeded basic grid/cpu. Although that wouldn't be so bad either.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:27:00 - [15] I understand the case against persistence, but there must be a middle way that can solve the problems with logged off fleets that can avoid any resistance by (ab)using the non-persistence of the current universe. Logging off safely should be possible, but limited. The current retribution-free way of logged fleets is a curse imo. As long as this is possible no war for territory can ever be brought to a conclusion. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:27:00 - [16] I understand the case against persistence, but there must be a middle way that can solve the problems with logged off fleets that can avoid any resistance by (ab)using the non-persistence of the current universe. Logging off safely should be possible, but limited. The current retribution-free way of logged fleets is a curse imo. As long as this is possible no war for territory can ever be brought to a conclusion. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Raem Civrie Half of your modules would be offline if your fitting exceeded basic grid/cpu. Although that wouldn't be so bad either. Not really, my fully fitted BS with an rcu II and my vl 5 skills doesnt have anythign going offline when i eject from it. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Raem Civrie Half of your modules would be offline if your fitting exceeded basic grid/cpu. Although that wouldn't be so bad either. Not really, my fully fitted BS with an rcu II and my vl 5 skills doesnt have anythign going offline when i eject from it. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:31:00 - [19] I don't see why they don't just have a timed shutdown of the ship. Keep the attempt to warp away but one minute after you log off your cap and shield drop to zero. If you suffer a dropped connection you can probably get back on within that time. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:31:00 - [20] I don't see why they don't just have a timed shutdown of the ship. Keep the attempt to warp away but one minute after you log off your cap and shield drop to zero. If you suffer a dropped connection you can probably get back on within that time. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Aelius	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Dukath I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again. I like this idea, or you could also create in adiction to that another system. -When the player logs off: pod eject and warps to a X,Y,Z random spot and vanishes -First 15 minuts: ship will remain in the spot. -After 15 minuts: ship will cloak at the same spot (can only be found by a specialized ship/module) -After 1 hour: ship disapears and until player logs on again. -When the player logs on the ship will be at his side on that X,Y,Z randon spot. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Aelius	Posted - 2004.11.11 13:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Dukath I have heard rumours about the devs not willing to do this because of technical difficulties. Ships with pilots inside alledgedly take more resources than simple abandoned ships. There is a very simply technical solution for this though. When those pilots that would remain persistent log off their pod ejects from the ship when logging off. Then the pod can simply disappear like everything else while the ship turns into a normal abandoned ship. At logging in the pod will appear next to the abandoned ship and can simply be boarded again. I like this idea, or you could also create in adiction to that another system. -When the player logs off: pod eject and warps to a X,Y,Z random spot and vanishes -First 15 minuts: ship will remain in the spot. -After 15 minuts: ship will cloak at the same spot (can only be found by a specialized ship/module) -After 1 hour: ship disapears and until player logs on again. -When the player logs on the ship will be at his side on that X,Y,Z randon spot. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Dame Sneakers	Posted - 2004.11.11 14:25:00 - [23] Well, I was having connection problems last night while battling a NPC mission spawn. I am happy with the way it works now, because if it had left my ship there, I most likely would have died because I would have killed the NPCs that I had targeted, but then the rest would have taken me out. Then, to make matters worse, it took me over an hour to jump 4 systems back to my agent, well I did not need that 72k isk time bonus reward anyway. I used to play a game, Space Merchant, which had persistent ships. It was a great game but the whole game revolved around the persistent ships concept. Unless persistent ships are designed in from the start, it is very difficult to add in the concept later. In Space Merchant you could cloak and cloaking stayed active when you logged of. You could be seen only by people higher ranked than you. My strategy was to be the highest ranked player and log off where ever I wanted to. There were other safe places to log off, but I donÆt want to go into that. So, if the idea of persistent ships comes into EVE, why not make it so that if you are cloaked and log off, you stay right were you are and you stay cloaked. Thus, the lone hunter in 0.0 space can equip a cloak and use it to stay safe when he logs off. Hey, maybe this would even make cloaking a little bit more worthwhile. But, unless there is some way to tell if the person is just logging to avoid a battle or if his connection has gone down, persistent ships would be a bad idea. But, there is no way to tell the difference, because even if you could, what is to stop somebody from unplugging there network card in the heat of battle and claiming that their ôconnection went downö? ------------------------------------So many skills, so little time...
Dame Sneakers	Posted - 2004.11.11 14:25:00 - [24] Well, I was having connection problems last night while battling a NPC mission spawn. I am happy with the way it works now, because if it had left my ship there, I most likely would have died because I would have killed the NPCs that I had targeted, but then the rest would have taken me out. Then, to make matters worse, it took me over an hour to jump 4 systems back to my agent, well I did not need that 72k isk time bonus reward anyway. I used to play a game, Space Merchant, which had persistent ships. It was a great game but the whole game revolved around the persistent ships concept. Unless persistent ships are designed in from the start, it is very difficult to add in the concept later. In Space Merchant you could cloak and cloaking stayed active when you logged of. You could be seen only by people higher ranked than you. My strategy was to be the highest ranked player and log off where ever I wanted to. There were other safe places to log off, but I donÆt want to go into that. So, if the idea of persistent ships comes into EVE, why not make it so that if you are cloaked and log off, you stay right were you are and you stay cloaked. Thus, the lone hunter in 0.0 space can equip a cloak and use it to stay safe when he logs off. Hey, maybe this would even make cloaking a little bit more worthwhile. But, unless there is some way to tell if the person is just logging to avoid a battle or if his connection has gone down, persistent ships would be a bad idea. But, there is no way to tell the difference, because even if you could, what is to stop somebody from unplugging there network card in the heat of battle and claiming that their ôconnection went downö? ------------------------------------So many skills, so little time...
Thanit	Posted - 2004.11.11 19:12:00 - [25] Raise the time-out timer to 1 hour. Ships stay in space for that long untill they dissapear. Of course cloaks shoudl stay active during that hour if active when logging. Adds no risk to out-of-the-way solo hunters in deep space that log at safespots cause noone os gonna find em anyway, but logging off a fleet at a safe in a disputed system will result in someone trying to trace that safe, and sooner or later he will succeed and your fleet gets killed.
Thanit	Posted - 2004.11.11 19:12:00 - [26] Raise the time-out timer to 1 hour. Ships stay in space for that long untill they dissapear. Of course cloaks shoudl stay active during that hour if active when logging. Adds no risk to out-of-the-way solo hunters in deep space that log at safespots cause noone os gonna find em anyway, but logging off a fleet at a safe in a disputed system will result in someone trying to trace that safe, and sooner or later he will succeed and your fleet gets killed.
Moridan	Posted - 2004.11.11 19:55:00 - [27] A slightly less drastic system would be giving people a timer of 15 mins that they cannot log off normally after being in a pvp conflict where they targeted someone. Of course if they reset/disconnect their ship would remain in space for the same time and they can be killed. "Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
Moridan	Posted - 2004.11.11 19:55:00 - [28] A slightly less drastic system would be giving people a timer of 15 mins that they cannot log off normally after being in a pvp conflict where they targeted someone. Of course if they reset/disconnect their ship would remain in space for the same time and they can be killed. "Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
Thanit	Posted - 2004.11.11 21:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Moridan A slightly less drastic system would be giving people a timer of 15 mins that they cannot log off normally after being in a pvp conflict where they targeted someone. Of course if they reset/disconnect their ship would remain in space for the same time and they can be killed. Only solves log-off tactics. Doesnt solve logged off fleets at safespots.
Thanit	Posted - 2004.11.11 21:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Moridan A slightly less drastic system would be giving people a timer of 15 mins that they cannot log off normally after being in a pvp conflict where they targeted someone. Of course if they reset/disconnect their ship would remain in space for the same time and they can be killed. Only solves log-off tactics. Doesnt solve logged off fleets at safespots.

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