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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2009.12.05 05:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vigilant on 05/12/2009 05:44:38 Controversal topic...
Is it time for them to be market items like tech 1 ?
or
Should CCP let invented t2 BPCs be researched for ME/PE ?
or
Should CCP let high sec. moon mining occur ?
Just throwing gas into the the fire
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Sicardae Bad'ia
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Posted - 2009.12.05 06:40:00 -
[2]
3 different topics but ok, ill try to untroll you:
1. No, you cant put a worked on BPO or BPC up on market for reasons concerning the way the database treats its itemid. 2. No, you cant research a BPC, your not even trying are you? 3. No, wtf try harder. |
FunzzeR
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.12.05 08:01:00 -
[3]
Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
A number of ways come to mind, that make a better ROI and probably yearly return with the same or less effort--just needs a little more cognition and observation...
I'll leave the topic at that. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!! |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
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Posted - 2009.12.05 08:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
A number of ways come to mind, that make a better ROI and probably yearly return with the same or less effort--just needs a little more cognition and observation...
I'll leave the topic at that.
May have something to do with 60% of the T2 ship market being supplied by BPO owners...
/empties tanker onto fire ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2009.12.05 10:06:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vigilant Edited by: Vigilant on 05/12/2009 05:44:38 Controversal topic...
Is it time for them to be market items like tech 1 ?
or
Should CCP let invented t2 BPCs be researched for ME/PE ?
or
Should CCP let high sec. moon mining occur ?
Just throwing gas into the the fire
Gas? How about wet cow farts? Controversial? Try dumb enough to be elected to the US Senate.
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Dadder
Quantum Revolutions
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Posted - 2009.12.05 10:08:00 -
[6]
1. No, Invention works well enough 2. Possibly... perhaps giving bpcs a bonus to research time (say 50%) could give you the option to raise the profitability of a bpc. The tradeoff of course is time and time = isk. 3. Cant you do that already?
Im for converting all existing T2 BPOs to 10x normal max run BPCs. Eve has progressed to the point where they're no longer necessary because of invention. The only people who disagree with me are the ones who don't want their license to print isk revoked...
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.05 11:16:00 -
[7]
I disagree with you and I am an inventor.
I know it is hard on the interwebz, but sweeping generalisations don't make your arguement more compelling. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.12.05 14:05:00 -
[8]
Easy to answer....
No, maybe and no!
TL;DR version
1. That's make invention worthless.... 2. Maybe, up to ME0/PE0 3. No pain, no gain!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Deyo
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Posted - 2009.12.05 16:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
Your point would be valid if every T2 BPO in game costed 10's of billions. If your investment was 100 mil needed to train research alt it makes much better ROI . And yes, I participated in lottery, haven't won anything and am still bitter about it (and i assume most people who complain about BPO's are for same reason).
D.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.05 17:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/12/2009 17:48:06
Originally by: Vigilant Is it time for them to be market items like tech 1 ?
Only if you balance ther NPC costs with a 3-to-5 year breakeven at current market prices, on top of some minimal requirements. Better still, don't put them on the market at all : have them as LP-shop rewards in R&D corps, with a sizable LP cost, alongside a LOT of datacores cost and a very, very high ISK cost.
Quote: Should CCP let invented t2 BPCs be researched for ME/PE ?
I'd much rather see T1 BPC ME/PE levels affect obtained T2 BPC ME/PE level instead.
Quote: Should CCP let high sec. moon mining occur ?
In highsec, not really. But they SHOULD allow moon-mining in all of lowsec, so 0.4 included, not just 0.3 and below as right now. Also, I would strongly encourage them to introduce new "layers" of minerals on existing 0.3-and-below moons, which would need increasingly specialized/expensive scanning gear to be detected at all in the first place (even if you already have a POS there) AND more expensive/fittings-intensive extractors to extract. That, alongside the introduction of higher-yield extractors for the "first layer" (the only available layer currently).
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We are recruiting | Beginer's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
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Listra Letoille
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Posted - 2009.12.06 00:25:00 -
[11]
On the topic of T2 BPO's. I am inclinced to say something should/could be changed. Great example is the Nighthawk, it's not profitable as an invention item due to the BPO's owners being able to always undercut the invention process prices.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 00:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Akita T on 06/12/2009 00:35:08
Originally by: Listra Letoille On the topic of T2 BPO's. I am inclinced to say something should/could be changed. Great example is the Nighthawk, it's not profitable as an invention item due to the BPO's owners being able to always undercut the invention process prices.
Funny you should mention the Nighthawk, because it is the only one out of 8 command ships where inventing it actually IS profitable (most of the time anyway, right now it's an exception, right now I doubt even building from a BPO would be profitable). Hell, most ships that don't even have a single BPO at all (and never had) aren't profitable to invent. You can't blame BPOs for that.
If you remove EACH AND EVERY T2 BPO from EVE, do you think invention will become more profitable ? Hell no, it won't. It will take longer to oversaturate the market, but oversaturated it will get eventually.
If you give T2 BPOs at reasonable prices (or, heck, give it FOR FREE for all I care), do you think manufacturing from a T2 BPO will be profitable ? Again, hell no. Buying a Raven BPO will probably be more profitable in ISK/month than building from a Nighthawk BPO in that case. Actually, scratch the "probably" and read "certainly".
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.06 02:16:00 -
[13]
Ok, so, if I follow Akita correctly, we can re-introduce means to obtain T2 BPO without much of an issue.
Good.
60% of ship production bypassing the prime means of manufacturing them is design failure however I look at it. Either sort it out or acknowledge current situation and make T2 BPO free for grabs again.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 02:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Forge Lag Ok, so, if I follow Akita correctly, we can re-introduce means to obtain T2 BPO without much of an issue.
Yes, you could. But depending on how you do it, you can either have a situation where invention as a whole would eventually become redundant (if you set the prices too low) or nobody would bother buying new T2 BPOs so you might as well not bother doing it (if you set it too high).
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Athar Mu
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.06 03:53:00 -
[15]
To all the people going on about T2 BPO's please can you tell me why its not profitable most of the time to make Golems? Because according to you lot its T2 BPO's that make T2 ships unprofitable...who the hell got the Golem BPO then?!?!
They are relics...leave them be. There is no solution that makes everyone happy. If you are so bothered about them, save up buy one and have your own 'licence to print isk' item. It's like asking for a State Raven or something.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.06 05:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 06/12/2009 05:14:50
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
A number of ways come to mind, that make a better ROI and probably yearly return with the same or less effort--just needs a little more cognition and observation...
I'll leave the topic at that.
May have something to do with 60% of the T2 ship market being supplied by BPO owners...
/empties tanker onto fire
That has something to do with 60% of T2 ships being too **** to have demand in excess of supply.
There are more than 10,000 T2 BPOs out there, many of them make no profit at all (would take a loss to build and you can't refine the built product back to the source components :( ) Even the very most profitable T2 BPOs now make an incredibly small amount compared to other ventures that require a tiny fraction of the capital. Owning a T2 BPO today is like a race to see if you can possibly build enough to match your assets depreciation.
The reality is that the profitability of the invention market is determined by inventors alone, if something becomes more profitable, more people invent it until it isn't. As long as 'some' of the T2 market is supplied by inventors, they're always going to be the price-setters. The only situation where price is set by BPO owners is when the market demand for that 'particular' item is very poor, in which case the BPO itself probably doesn't make any profit since all the BPO owners will be competing against each other to try and shift a huge amount of useless stock to a market that would prefer another product.
By the way, I don't think T2 BPOs should be removed because they're not relevant to anyone other than their owners, given they have no effect what-so-ever on anyone else in terms of profit. However, removing them is BY A HUGE MARGIN the least destructive 'FIX' to this psychological problem people have, all the other 'fixes' have the result of destroying invention for no benefit at all.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.12.06 06:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lord Fitz However, removing them is BY A HUGE MARGIN the least destructive 'FIX' to this psychological problem people have, all the other 'fixes' have the result of destroying invention for no benefit at all.
Actually, having T1 BPC ME/PE levels influence T2 BPC ME/PE levels (and/or heavily improving decryptor benefits) would be an even less destructive fix.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.06 07:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
A number of ways come to mind, that make a better ROI and probably yearly return with the same or less effort--just needs a little more cognition and observation...
I'll leave the topic at that.
May have something to do with 60% of the T2 ship market being supplied by BPO owners...
/empties tanker onto fire
Great way to use only the data you want:
QUEN 2/2009
56% of all T2 ships were made from BPO 75% of all HAC were made from BPC 84% of all interceptors were made by BPO 89% of all hulks were made from BPC
To sum it up: most small ships are made from BPO (simply because using decryptors for them is a losing cause) while cruiser and up are mostly made by BPC.
It is simply a decryptor cost question: the decryptors are priced on the most rewarding job (so large ships). That make not economically feasible to use them for small ships, leaving most of the market to BPO holders.
For the OP: having the T2 BPC ME/PE influenced by the T1 BPC valluse was the original CCP idea. As it was never implemnted I think there are development problems with it, sad as it would be a good thing.
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Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
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Posted - 2009.12.06 09:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Venkul Mul stuff
You forgot:
Datacore costs Interface costs Increased material costs for negative ME values Invention failure rates (which compound the above) Extra skill requirements (time and isk investment) Invention misc costs (need for labs to copy and invent(POSs) above and beyond having a BPO sat in a factory station)
and to factor in trade volumes
I am sure others can add more.... ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.06 11:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 06/12/2009 11:13:55
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Lord Fitz However, removing them is BY A HUGE MARGIN the least destructive 'FIX' to this psychological problem people have, all the other 'fixes' have the result of destroying invention for no benefit at all.
Actually, having T1 BPC ME/PE levels influence T2 BPC ME/PE levels (and/or heavily improving decryptor benefits) would be an even less destructive fix.
No it wouldn't, as the reason they went with -ve ME for invention wasn't to differentiate them from BPOs (an added bonus), but to make decryptor choice actually matter. As it stands choosing the right decryptor is one of very few elements of skill in the process, and allows some inventors to profit over others. Removing -ME effect (which is what you would essentially be doing by allowing an improvement above current) is going to leave just runs and chance as the two factors in decryptor choice, which makes it simpler and thus less profitable.
T1 BPC ME/PE effecting the T2 would very quickly have no effect at all as everyone would just research up the T1 prints (if they hadn't already) and we'd hit the same problems we already have anyway.
All the 'fixes' I've seen suggested are destructive to invention as a whole. Invention was probably the best idea CCP has had for a while, it fixed the silly profits T2 BPOs made (now they make silly small profits), and it's infinitely expandable. If they'd done the same for Alchemy (which was quite possible but has instead been a disaster that anyone could have seen coming), then we'd be all much better off.
Quote: You forgot:
Datacore costs Interface costs Increased material costs for negative ME values Invention failure rates (which compound the above) Extra skill requirements (time and isk investment) Invention misc costs (need for labs to copy and invent(POSs) above and beyond having a BPO sat in a factory station)
and to factor in trade volumes
I am sure others can add more....
If T2 BPOs are so good, go buy one ! Anyone can do it ! Oh wait, are you saying they have one gigantic downside that doesn't come close to making up for all those 'postitives' you listed?
Never mind that you'd be stuck with that one product (with potentially massive capital cost), which at any whim could be nerfed so your asset is worthless, or removed? Most of which make less profit than inventing something else anyway, despite everything you list above?
The reality is none of that makes any difference, the only thing that makes any sustained difference to any profitable activity in this game is the number of other people doing the same thing, vs the number that need to do it to fill the demand. As you'll find, no matter WHAT you do, people get good at doing anything with incredible efficiency, so that a few percent profit on a large scale, is enough, and they'll undercut YOU until you stop, or go to the forums to whine about it some more.
Want to beef up profits for an activity? There's a secret. Make it harder and riskier. That is the ONLY thing that boosts profits, if you make it easier or safer the reverse happens. Invention is actually 0 risk. If you do it as a profession you can ride out all of the success rate variation, so it becomes a statistical reality rather than a risk.
The great thing people forget about T2 ship production is that not all that long ago, 100% of them were made from BPOs. Remember that? Then people really had something to complain about, there was no market forces at work, T2 BPOs for any item that saw use were actually worthy of the comments here.
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2009.12.06 12:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
The great thing people forget about T2 ship production is that not all that long ago, 100% of them were made from BPOs. Remember that? Then people really had something to complain about, there was no market forces at work, T2 BPOs for any item that saw use were actually worthy of the comments here.
Thats actually 3 years ago, so no, many wont be able to remmeber... You have been playing to long.
While you could argue that the investment cost of T2 BPO balance the bonus, that only goes for resold BPO's. Some of the people who got Hulk BPO's for free and have keot them prudcing since without reselling have been playing EvE on uber easy mode for 4-5 years wiht no downside.
That said, I am ok with the exixstance of T2 BPO's even though i dont have any. They add spice. Its about time to loose the -4/-4 penalty on invented bpc's though...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.06 12:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lord Fitz If T2 BPOs are so good, go buy one ! Anyone can do it !
I have RP stockpiled, still no BPO, not even a slim chance.
Yeah, we no longer have 100% of ships manufactured from BPOs, now we have 84%, for all I am concerned. Such progress in only a few years.
Either invention is good and then scrap the zombie that takes 84% of the cake - or BPOs are good and then give us some to help new players to cheaper ships. Make up your mind, you and CCP.
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Mr Material
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:21:00 -
[23]
The problem with bpo's is that its way more profitable to produce from it because of the research you can do, for example, orge ii build cost from a bpo is about 50-100k p/u, from a invention bpc around 250-300k, this still leaves wiggle room for invention but bpos are making 200% more than the invention, so instead of building 100 units at 300k p/u your builing at 100k p/u, do you want to spend 10 mil on components and make 45-50 mil off sell orders or spend 30mil and sell at the same price, but i guess its worth the 25bil to get the bpo apperently.
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Ki Shodan
Gallente deep blue
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vigilant Is it time for them to be market items like tech 1 ?
or
Should CCP let invented t2 BPCs be researched for ME/PE ?
or
Should CCP let high sec. moon mining occur ?
1. They already are, but no one is using the feature to sell Tech II BPO's via the market. 2. No, why? Would be pointless and make the labslot situation worse. 3. NO! Let the poor low sec and 0.0 industrialist have some meaning in their life! --
Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor! |
Yarinor
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.07 04:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mr Material The problem with bpo's is that its way more profitable to produce from it because of the research you can do, for example, orge ii build cost from a bpo is about 50-100k p/u, from a invention bpc around 250-300k, this still leaves wiggle room for invention but bpos are making 200% more than the invention, so instead of building 100 units at 300k p/u your builing at 100k p/u, do you want to spend 10 mil on components and make 45-50 mil off sell orders or spend 30mil and sell at the same price, but i guess its worth the 25bil to get the bpo apperently.
Did you do the math how long it will take to pay off the T2 bpo? Invention is profitable pretty quick, however a T2 bpo takes years to earn it self back.
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Spatiopathe
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Posted - 2009.12.07 06:33:00 -
[26]
Few players keep religously the relic of the past of Eve, the Tech II BPO. These items were, but arent avaible for player, these relic are located into the secured chest of the wealthiest corporations, who are ofc in nullsec.
Thats a great inequality that few corporation produce cheaper than 95% of all other players....its create a de facto monopoly The nullsec owners of t2 bpo earn billion of isk without concurrence, its a huge rent incoming, i'v heard about 100b/month for some bpo.
Thats afflict the market mecanism, and give to nullsec guy too much income in comparaison to their work, they just collect money of all buyers without any concurrence. That influence also war and souvereignty meanism, how a challenger can attack an empire sit on a gold mountain ?
One time, a stealer capture a bpo, his corporation was war-dec several month by entire powerblock, and the ceo was forced surrender and give the bpo.
Men !!!!! BPO T2 arent a detail!! ITS ONE OF THE MAINLY INCOMING OF NULLSEC ALLIANCE and give them infinite incoming for infinte war to the detriment of all other player.
Rare Moon also give isk, but they are conquerable... bpo t2 are not !! its really unfair that the relic of a CCP patch continue to deeply influence the game mecanism. I dont think that most part of empire know the truth about this. I've seen that the most part of the CSM candidate were against the bpo t2 withdraw, and ofc they have an interest into that because their alliance are owners of bpo t2.. they arent honest.
I hope that the election verdict can shred the light on this shamefully bpo.
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Aurorae Andromedae
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Posted - 2009.12.07 08:43:00 -
[27]
You have a Hulk BPO.
You produce one Hulk at the time.
I produce 22 Hulks at the same time.
Your profit per Hulk is larger than mine.
But since I make 22 Hulks at the same time, I win.
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Jarinak
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Posted - 2009.12.07 08:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Spatiopathe its a huge rent incoming, i'v heard about 100b/month for some bpo.
omg this 0.0 Alliances are so evil, they really can make more then 3b a day from a mystical bpo
Better for you to fly some L4 or so, but please do not prod anything, its really not yours to handle the math
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.12.07 09:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae You have a Hulk BPO.
You produce one Hulk at the time.
I produce 22 Hulks at the same time.
Your profit per Hulk is larger than mine.
But since I make 22 Hulks at the same time, I win.
More like he makes same 22 hulks from invention plus the one for bpo and he wins if only slightly. Remember he can put in the same effort as you plus have the bonus of the bpo. Plus if the person is planning to be inactive for a bit he can literaly just print bpcs from the bpo with the nice ME and when comes back he gets a nice pile of bpc's.
Personally I think that not the ships are the biggest moneymakers but modules namely most popular small medium guns or similar modules that all the setups are using DCU II EAN II Invul II BCU II. There you can talk about real priniting machines for isk.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.07 11:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T have them as LP-shop rewards in R&D corps, with a sizable LP cost, alongside a LOT of datacores cost and a very, very high ISK cost.
I quite like this actually... have certain t2 BPO's unique to certain R&D corps to encourage the user of different stores.
They'd have to go for a price tag of billions plus a LOT of datacores though... but I do like it! Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.12.07 11:09:00 -
[31]
Very good idea.
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Carniflex
Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.12.07 13:36:00 -
[32]
YESSSSS. It's that time of year again. *goes for pitchfork and tortch*
Actually I do think current situation with T2 BPO's is damaging to the game and they should be either removed from the game (with some compensation handed out to the owners) or (less preferred version) introduce some way for others to get one also (it should not be easy, but it should be possible in a way that does not involve buying one of the present ones from another player).
Failing 2 previous ones ME and PE numbers of the BPC you use for invention should affect the end result ME and PE levels (but that would make good part of the exploration loot crap).
Then again anyone who reads the forums is aware of my standpoint and arguments I present to support it as well as arguments that those who are opposed to the idea use to support their standpoint.
Now where was I. Ah yes. Burn em, burn em all !!!!
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:39:00 -
[33]
Look I'm sick of these posts so I am now going to break my own rule. I am going to divulge the evil super overpoweredness of tech two bpo's. I own seven mid range level bpo's that cost roughly twenty billion each. My grosse profit, per month, is nine billion. I let friends sell my production and after taking their fees and production cost into concern I net four-five bil a month or roughly 130-150 million a day. That's probably a bit better than a seriously dedicated level four runner.
That means it will take me, assuming I bought all of them today, about three years of manufacturing to replace those investments.
Wanting to nerf my investments is just fine as long as you plan to compensate me for my loss. Otherwise bite the bullet and either spend five years either accumulating like I did or wait for the market to stabilize like a good boy and save us holders alot of typing. |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:15:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jovialmadness That means it will take me, assuming I bought all of them today, about three years of manufacturing to replace those investments.
Unless you bought them stupidly expensive, you can replace this investment in no time by selling the BPOs. Duh.
Also, do you know of comparable investment opportunity, counting in the risk (or total lack of in case of T2 BPOs) and the liquidity and the volume of ISK?
T2 BPOs are abomination in more than one way and dicontinuing them only made it worse.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:22:00 -
[35]
Well selling them I can get my money back sure. One thing that we holders also risk that is a major concern that most of the "nerf techtwo bpo" crowd doesn't care about Is we have to carry the concern everytime ccp comes out with a patch that their value will decrease. This goes in hand with say ccp caving to the tech two bpo haters.
We invest more than just isk into these prints...we speculate on them as well. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.09 07:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Qual That said, I am ok with the exixstance of T2 BPO's even though i dont have any. They add spice. Its about time to loose the -4/-4 penalty on invented bpc's though...
The -4/-4 penalty isn't to balance them against BPOs, it's to balance the decryptors. If the base ME was higher there wouldn't really be much of a point in most of the decryptors. Since inventors are the only competition that causes invention to be profitable, making invention easier would reduce the profit. You could sooner give the BPO's a fixed -1 ME than you could change the invented BPCs to ME0.
For the consumers, the lowest cost is always the best, for producers the cost is irrelevant, it only matters how much more efficiently you can do it than the next guy. If you make something riskier or harder it allows the possibility for an advantage, if anyone could make their own ammo instantly there wouldn't be a market for it. That's one of the reasons they doubled ammo build time, the longer and more difficult something is the more market for it there is.
It doesn't matter how the BPO was acquired, if someone paid 100b for a BPO, or someone went and refused an offer of 100b to give up their BPO, it still cost them 100b to retain it. If you change it now all you do is punish the poor bastard that bought his yesterday, while giving a huge reward to the people that were given them in the lottery and have sold theirs. There is no magic 'undo' button, the damage is done, anything else just causes further damage. The most profitable T2 BPOs out there make far far less than the better moons or capital production lines that cost a fraction as much to acquire. Their profit is pretty small for their capital cost, with most taking 4-5 years to break even. There are plenty of other assets you could buy and break even sooner and resell THOSE without fear they will decrease in value (a fear which is already realised on many T2 BPOs).
Originally by: Forge Lag Unless you bought them stupidly expensive, you can replace this investment in no time by selling the BPOs. Duh.
Also, do you know of comparable investment opportunity, counting in the risk (or total lack of in case of T2 BPOs) and the liquidity and the volume of ISK?
T2 BPOs are abomination in more than one way and dicontinuing them only made it worse.
That's quite simply untrue, many T2 BPOs have more than halved in value in the last two years. In some cases if you sold your BPO two years ago, the person that bought it would have to build off it continuously for about 60 years before they break even.
T2 BPOs are among the more risky investments, good researched T1 BPOs can always be resold for a profit, are easier to sell, and can make many many times the return on investment.
If you think there's no risk to owning a T2 BPO, GO AND BUY ONE WITH ISK, NOW ! (the same way most people got theirs).
Oh wait, you don't really believe that, because you are continuing to make two mutually exclusive arguments.
One of the following is true: - T2 BPOs are overpowered and good value for the ISK investment, you should buy one. - T2 BPOs are an underpowered waste of ISK that will never payback, or payback more slowly than other investments. You have nothing to be jealous of, feel free to point and laugh.
You have to pick one, there isn't a third option, they're both mutually exclusive arguments.
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Ehbdfgf Intaki
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Posted - 2009.12.09 14:15:00 -
[37]
haha - all these talks about T2 BPO - T2 BPC - wanting this wanting that - you forget the obvious, anything that help build more or cheaper will benefit the customer, no way it means more profit for builder/Inventor.
Ehb
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Mr Mordan
Focused Fire Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2009.12.09 20:02:00 -
[38]
I was lucky enough to be one of the first to be awarded a Zealot BPO back in the days.. Other than some research on it, it's been in the oven non-stop for years. I also do Zealot invention, so I know the difference in overall profit margins very well. I can definitely say that while my margins are far higher on the BPO, and it's less work for me too, I still make a healthy profit on the invented ones as well. I think if one wanted to do invention on a somewhat larger scale, one could make as much isk overall per week as a BPO owner. My overall profits are the same between the bpo and invention on the same item, but I have a fairly significant assembly line going on invention to support that. It's more work but not a whole lot more to be blunt. Very doable..
With regards to just making T2 prints go away, I think that would really screw a lot of people who've heavily invested in them. They are an investment for many and they expect to get a return on it after a year or so depending on the print. You can't just make that hard work disappear. However, if some form of suitable and might I say "realistic" compensation were there, I'd turn in my BPO.. It just needs to be fair compensation for the value it presents to someone for an investment that may very well yield profits for many years.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.12.09 21:13:00 -
[39]
Well the thing about removing T2 BPOs is that:
1. Low demand T2 items, aka those who by a vast margin are produced by BPOs, will shoot up dramatically.
2. If people have to rely 100% on invention to make things, more T2 components will be consumed than a comparable mix of BPO and BPC production, making T2 component prices even higher, and indeed making the ending cost of goods sold higher.
3.A reliable baseline source of T2 is removed, increasing prices and...
and...
Goddang it I can't do this anymore. This same conversation year in and year out. I am so tired of arguing these points I could cry tears of blood. Just accept the fact that T2 BPOs are good for the average eve consumer. I'll grant you they should either boost invention or find some new way to add T2 BPOs to the game semi-fairly, but for god's sakes this argument is just so overdone. Ugh. -----------
Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
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TigerXtrm
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.09 22:18:00 -
[40]
To me it makes no sense that there are open ways to produce T1 (infinite BPO's on the market) and T3 (reverse engineering, no BPO's available) but for T2 there is a small share of players who own items that provide a distinct advantage over the inventors.
Inventors have to deal with a chance base, higher mineral waste, higher base cost. There is no way an inventor can produce their goods at the same cost a T2 BPO owner can.
The T2 BPO's give an unfair monopoly to the ones holding them. And yes, that's how it goes in the real world, but this is a game. A game should be balanced, that's what we're all whining about all the time, right? PVPers have no problem complaining when something is out of balance but when the carebears do it we get laughed at?
What would be my suggestion when it comes to the complete removal of T2 BPO's (thus creating a system like T3, where the tech can only be produced by invention/reverse engineering), is to just find the price the BPO was sold for at the time to the current owner, give that amount back and be done with it. There really is no other solution. Compensating the owners any more would pump to much ISK into the game at once.
Remember we're talking billions upon billions for a lot of BPO's, almost all T2 items in the game, if not all. Do the math and ask yourself if you really want to pump trillions of ISK into the game at once. That would create more **** than T2 BPO's would ever bring on their own.
It's a complicated subject and I can see why CCP would hold off dealing with it until someone comes up with a decent solution. Maybe introducing more T2 BPO's is a solution, so they don't become so rare and all end up in the hands off big alliances. Thus driving prices down, balancing out the market. And should CCP still decide to pull the BPO's out, at least it won't create a thunder cloud of ISK.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.10 04:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: TigerXtrm To me it makes no sense that there are open ways to produce T1 (infinite BPO's on the market) and T3 (reverse engineering, no BPO's available) but for T2 there is a small share of players who own items that provide a distinct advantage over the inventors.
You're missing a couple of points a) There are over 10,000 T2 BPOs b) ANYONE may purchase one.
Thus the statement that a small group of players have items that provide an advantage is wrong on both counts, it's not a small group and it's not an advantage unless you forget that they cost anything. Uniquely in Eve you can produce exactly the same item identical in every way to the BPO made item. You also have no influence WHAT SO EVER on your profit as an inventor due to BPOs, in fact in many cases it's actually significantly MORE profitable to invent items that HAVE a BPO because people believe that the profit will be less so in reality there is less competition, while items without the BPOs often end up sold under cost, because people assume everyone else did the calculations for them.
Quote: Inventors have to deal with a chance base, higher mineral waste, higher base cost. There is no way an inventor can produce their goods at the same cost a T2 BPO owner can.
Yes right, you TOO can not deal with that if you buy a BPO. You're still not getting it. Invention profit has NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to do with the cost of producing the items. The profit is merely the lowest possible profit people are willing to accept to invent that item. If you remove BPOs, or add ten million of them, the profit from building T2 will be exactly the same, the lowest possible profit people are willing to accept for the effort.
Quote: The T2 BPO's give an unfair monopoly to the ones holding them. And yes, that's how it goes in the real world, but this is a game. A game should be balanced, that's what we're all whining about all the time, right? PVPers have no problem complaining when something is out of balance but when the carebears do it we get laughed at?
I'm not aware of any monopoly in the world where a competitor can produce the exact same product without significant investment in infrastructure. The real world is significantly LESS fair, and Eve isn't SUPPOSED to be fair (if you think it is you really need to play another game, Eve has never been and never will be fair). You have exactly the same opportunity as anyone else to purchase a T2 BPO. Because someone saved up and bought one, and you basically can't be arsed to put in the same effort as they did, you want to remove what they worked for. THAT is imbalanced.
Quote: What would be my suggestion when it comes to the complete removal of T2 BPO's (thus creating a system like T3, where the tech can only be produced by invention/reverse engineering), is to just find the price the BPO was sold for at the time to the current owner, give that amount back and be done with it. There really is no other solution. Compensating the owners any more would pump to much ISK into the game at once.
You realise this would be impossible to do, there are over 10,000 T2 BPOs, many of which changed hands without any easy way to trace the amount paid. It's like unscrambling an egg.
Quote: It's a complicated subject and I can see why CCP would hold off dealing with it until someone comes up with a decent solution. Maybe introducing more T2 BPO's is a solution, so they don't become so rare and all end up in the hands off big alliances. Thus driving prices down, balancing out the market. And should CCP still decide to pull the BPO's out, at least it won't create a thunder cloud of ISK.
The most decent solution so far is: do nothing, by a very significant margin. More T2 BPOs is one of the worst ideas, removing them is terrible, but introducing more or making invention easier is far far far worse, it negatively effects far more people who derive an income from invention.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.10 04:15:00 -
[42]
If you want something to compare it to, the ridiculously high dysprosium / promethium prices were at least as game breaking as T2 BPOs ever were, they allowed easy, significant concentrations of ISK far in advance of what all the T2 BPOs were making in profit. But CCP can hardly go and remove everyone's Titans that they built with the ISK now can they. Regardless of how 'unfair' the method of acquisition was originally, once it's done, it's done. Their existence itself is no longer 'unfair' because anyone can buy them.
It's definitely something that proves that a reaction time of several years to a game imbalance problem is not good enough, because the damage done is permanent. Attempts to fix the damage only cause more damage. The best you can do is stop more damage from happening.
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Emmon
Caldari GTE Corp
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Posted - 2009.12.10 04:20:00 -
[43]
allow ME research on BPC's. Problem solved
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.10 04:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Emmon allow ME research on BPC's. Problem solved
Again, not listening. There isn't a 'problem' that this solves. This actually causes a problem.
Currently invention profit is determined by other inventors. The best way to make good profit is to find an item with demand outstripping invention supply, and also to invent the most profitable way (which means careful decryptor selection). Many people whinge about items not being profitable to invent, but never bother to check how decryptors change that. If you remove the ME component of decryptors (which is what you do effectively by allowing research), you end up with a few very useless decryptors, which means less decisions need to be made when inventing, and thus it becomes less complex, and so as a result, this always means less profit.
Solving a psychological problem by creating a real one is a terrible terrible idea.
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Dadder
Quantum Revolutions
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Posted - 2009.12.10 11:24:00 -
[45]
Convert all existing T2 BPOs to 10x normal max run BPCs.
Problem solved. People who bought their bpo recently may lose some isk, but ALL bpo owners would at least get some isk out of the prints they have. Considering how much people have made off them already i consider this fair.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.10 13:16:00 -
[46]
I don't. What about The guys that just bought them neverminding the instantaneous drop in their value. Let's not also forget invention has the same potential as the bpo's did back in the day of causing temporary cartels where small numbers of people invent specific stuff raising the prices until others jump in to lower them again.
With bpo's specific product lines can be held in check. The mods and ships without bpo's constantly fluctuate as people enter and leave invention for those items. Whenever i see a high priced item that I have a tech two bpo for I usually transfer some of my product there to get a piece of the action. Could this guy have been an inventor? Possibly. Either way the competition benefits you the consumer. |
Mac Maniac
Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.12.10 18:31:00 -
[47]
If OP would have spent a little more time and bothered watching the videos from fanfest... This was firmly addressed.. In essence .. NO CHANGE is going to be made to T2 bpo's. Period. HTFU I drop a link but I'm at work atm... It's the one about the economy
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The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
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Posted - 2009.12.11 18:48:00 -
[48]
Ahh... the great T2 BPO debate, must be nearly Xmas.
I always find myself on the remove them side of the fence, until i go through the alternatives. And there simply is no way of removing them from the game at this stage without breaking another part of the game.
Sure, the lottery should never have happened, but it did.
Invention does work and for large sectors of the T2 market competes very well with the BPO holders.
I think the current plan of do nothing is really the only long term solution. By the time we get to T5/6/7 or whatever CCP decide to do in a few years time, hopefully T2 will become redundant, and the T2 BPO's will die off through natural wastage, with the holders of those BPO's having had enough time to recoup their investments.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.11 21:41:00 -
[49]
That may be true but that is assuming ccp totally removes tech 2 from the game or alters them drastically. Historically when ccp adds a new element that can compete with other elements such as ship classes, they tend to try their best to make them unique and have a niche. They will probably, even around tech 5 time, simply make them a totally unique produced/flown/marketable form of ship sorta like tech 3. |
Yalluto
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Posted - 2010.02.01 03:31:00 -
[50]
How about making ownership of T2 BPOs public information. This would then allow for some interesting pvp among the rich corps that sit in empire all day trying to enforce their monopoly on everyone.
I don't know much about t2 invention and the blueprints, so that's my one thought. I'm sure though that a lot can be built on top of that.
Oh yeah, think about it... In the real world, we all know who makes what (minus secret military (and other) projects). Just like we fight for oil (yes/no), we could fight for industrial rights in eve.
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Sjarana
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Posted - 2010.02.01 11:34:00 -
[51]
BPO's are a pain in the *** for inventors. They do form an unfair advantage to the T2 BPO owners, inventors cannot compete with. And the excuse that their owners have paid a lot for them does not improve the mess we are in.
Certain items are sold in huge quatities under the cost of producing it through invention, no matter how you tweak your invention and production. It is most certainly a BPO owner because an inventor would already have gone broke.
I like a square playing field, and T2 is not a square playingfield. And I don't like being locked out of a market because I don't have the advantage off having won a lottery years before I started playing. And I sure as hell am not gonna pay absurd amounts of ISK for a BPO that will not repay itself within the next 50 years. But that does not mean we cannot whine about the situation as it is. Because there are BPO owners out there that have paid absurd amounts of ISK and the only way to generate income at a high pace is quantity. So they sell at prices only other BPO owners can compete with.
Aside, a lot of the mega alliances seem to own a ton of T2 BPO's. I don't know the truth of it, but I think it is a reasonable assumption. They do have a ISK coming from moon goo to buy them for a long time. So they not only have access to the BPO's but also to cheap moon goo. How can any inventor compete against that?
I hate the excistence of T2 BPO's but I concede to not being sure wether the game will be harmed more by their disappearance or by letting this go on like this. But I prefer to think that if the T2 BPO's will diasppear, the market will do it's work. Goods that are wanted will appear on the market.
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Wu Marusyn
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Posted - 2010.02.01 12:24:00 -
[52]
Tech II BPO's provide an advantage to their owners. Surely, all T2 BPO's are not of the same value, but some of them are quite valuable. I am an almost full time T2 inventor and so far I have invested several months of science skill training, doing missions for standings (R&D agents and a high sec POS) and isk (Tech 1 BPO's, high sec POS - infrastructure and maintenance and I dont even want to get into the Datacore and failed invention jobs issue). A T2 BPO owner on the contrary does not have to grind standings, does not need a POS for a constant supply of copies and definitely does not need the 20+ million sp in since that I've had to train. This produces an unfair advantage. Even if he bought the tech 2 BPO paying a considerable amount of ISK he may always sell it back to get a refund. I bet that the majority of people in this thread that are against removing them or giving access to everyone to them are indeed T2 BPO's owners.
In order to be constructive, I will agree that one of the best ideas would be to influence the ME/PE of the invented T2 BPC by the ME/PE characteristics of the T1 BPC used for the invention job. The other idea that I liked is making the T2 BPO's obtainable again through R/D agents with the price of LP+Datacores+Isk or whatever. Definitely T2 BPO should not be put on the market like the T1 BPO's and the T2 copies should not be researched.
Finally, I am more than certain that CCP will discard all these suggestions as always. I dont know how many industrial people would agree with me that the industrial part of the game needs changes.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2010.02.01 12:46:00 -
[53]
To be honest I think Invention is in need of "fixing" more than BPOs.
I run 8 invention jobs about every two hours and am suffering massive repetative strain injury. So I'd like:
(i) The ability to obtain and use a module specific decryptor that could pehaps give me a 100 or 200 run print (even at -4ME) would be very easily implemented and appreciated.
(ii) A science job allowing ME (perhaps using those otherwise useless R.DB) of that longer run BPC to be improved upto 0ME (This could be a longer job ie days/week rather than hours) it would mean my science jobs are not needing to be checked every 2 hours and sales would be more competitive with BPO owners.
This second part BADLY needs to be implemented for Ships especially given 2/3 of ships are still built from T2 BPOS according to Dr.Enyo's blog on T2 market analysis. That kind of market domination by a limited issue item IS bad for the game in an area that effects eveyone who flies a T2 ship (so practically everyone in game at some point).
As for the BPOs themselves I see their value in terms of "guaranteed" production available, but I think they have had their dominance for far too long (after being handed out in what CCP admits was a broken system), and it is time they simply got flooded out/devalued by improved competition from a more competitive and less time intensive invention system.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Revelation Space
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Posted - 2010.02.01 14:12:00 -
[54]
1: No 2: No 3: yes as long as CCP will only allow a small pos to be anchored in Empire ()
the one thing I'd like to see change is the output BPC stats. We already get a random "ooh it was easy" or "wow you failed", so how about linking these messgaes to the BPC stats. A "ooh it was easy" could result in a ME/PE of 0/0 before decryptors. A "Gosh that was hard" could result in the current ME/PE or -4/-4. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:35:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 05/12/2009 08:01:12 Honestly I don't understand why people get hung up on t2 bpos, and either wanting to eliminate them, nerf them, or make them available to everyone. Especially given the horrible ROI most of them have...
A number of ways come to mind, that make a better ROI and probably yearly return with the same or less effort--just needs a little more cognition and observation...
I'll leave the topic at that.
May have something to do with 60% of the T2 ship market being supplied by BPO owners...
/empties tanker onto fire
I would just get rid of them replace them with stack I duno 100-500 max run perfect me pe bpc's and be done with that.
Also include additional invention (mean multipliers of 12 or above) that will push the invention me pe higher
Done
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Kirsi Kirjasto
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:00:00 -
[56]
To the OP:
Good ideas, all: CCP make it so!
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