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About lasers. What did REALLY change?

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Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.12.08 02:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2009 21:11:33 Originally by: Manu Hermanus but the way resits work in eve it isn't as easy to calculate. ... which makes the seemingly arbitrary 75% and 65% a curious choice. That's why? I picked two arbitrary and obtainable resists. I didn't have any specific fit in mind. Quote: looking at a megathron setup with a corpii c-type and dc II (I remember this setup being popular) base em resist = 50%, with mods + skills 67.5% resist. I remember it being touted a lot on the forums. It was never POPULAR to my knowledge. Quote: ... bunch of math ... Seems like the argument was always Base Resists + 2 EANM + DC - which isn't quite what you're arguing (Mega + Corpii ANP + Navy EANM). Also, they always took things like the Tempest - which would have had 70% base EM resists right? And no matter how you slice it, a 25% damage boost is quite substantial. -Liang obtainable doesn't make it average. 2 EANM II + dc II is very close to corpii c-type + navy EANM + dc II and yes the mega would have gone from 60->50% where the tempest went from 70->60% hah I have an old version of eft (2.4.1) with the old resists. 2 eanm dc II tempest had 85% em resist, currently it has 80%. 33.33% difference You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.12.08 02:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Manu Hermanus hah I have an old version of eft (2.4.1) with the old resists. 2 eanm dc II tempest had 85% em resist, currently it has 80%. 33.33% difference So what you're telling me is that on average lasers got a 22-33% applied damage boost (with a median near 25%). All from a 10% base resistance change. Sounds like a really powerful boost - regardless of the pulse tracking boost and all the changes to other weapons that made them inferior. I also really liked Merin's elaboration on my point of game understanding improving. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Removal Tool Space Jerks	Posted - 2009.12.08 04:07:00 - [33] Psh....someone could suggest that water was wet and Merin would say that it wasn't, just out of habit
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.08 04:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Removal Tool Psh....someone could suggest that water was wet and Merin would say that it wasn't, just out of habit lol, I dont know why but I felt compelled to look up debates on water being wet or not. You'd be surprised but there are alot of very good arguements that say water itself is not wet because to be wet implies being covered in a liquid. Water is a liquid and cannot be covered in itself therefore it is not wet. Water can cause things to be wet, and is characterized as a wetting agent. Being wet is the measure of a liquids ability to adhere to a solid surface. Since water is a liquid, there is no solid surface for it to adhere to itself therefore water is not wet. There ya go. lol
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.12.08 05:11:00 - [35] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader lol, I dont know why but I felt compelled to look up debates on water being wet or not. You'd be surprised but there are alot of very good arguements that say water itself is not wet because to be wet implies being covered in a liquid. Water is a liquid and cannot be covered in itself therefore it is not wet. Water can cause things to be wet, and is characterized as a wetting agent. Being wet is the measure of a liquids ability to adhere to a solid surface. Since water is a liquid, there is no solid surface for it to adhere to itself therefore water is not wet. There ya go. lol Wait, but water has a solid state. Does this mean that you can have wet ice (ice immersed in a liquid)? If so, isn't ice defined as water in the solid state? Does this mean that water can, in fact, be wet? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Drazin DawnTreader Cutthroat Mercenary Corp	Posted - 2009.12.08 06:43:00 - [36] The question then becomes, Is water still water when it is in its solid state or gaseous state? Or is it then classified as Ice and steam? Ice can be wet when immersed in water, that is certainly true. I wonder how much we can derail this thread debating the wetness of water.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.12.08 07:04:00 - [37] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader The question then becomes, Is water still water when it is in its solid state or gaseous state? Well, here's some relevant definitions... Originally by: Google binary compound that occurs at room temperature as a clear colorless odorless tasteless liquid; freezes into ice below 0 degrees centigrade and ... This seems to be more concerned about the substance over the state of matter. Originally by: Wikipedia Water is the chemical substance with chemical formula H2O: one molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom. ... Water appears in nature in all three common states of matter ... Water is a tasteless, odorless liquid at standard temperature and pressure. The color of water and ice is, intrinsically, a very light blue hue, although water appears colorless in small quantities. Ice also appears colorless, and water vapor is essentially invisible as a gas.[9] ... This also seems to be more concerned about the substance instead of state. It additionally notes in common usage it is considered a liquid (but only in common usage - given that their definition specifically allows for any state of matter!). I also underlined the interesting part for the next definition. Originally by: Answers.com A clear, colorless, odorless, and tasteless liquid, H2O, essential for most plant and animal life and the most widely used of all solvents. Freezing point 0¦C (32¦F); boiling point 100¦C (212¦F); specific gravity (4¦C) 1.0000; weight per gallon (15¦C) 8.338 pounds (3.782 kilograms). Using the common definition, but throwing in a bit of spice for the sciency types amongst us. Obviously, the substance is more important, consisting of the bulk of the definition. Additionally, I note the peculiar mixing of metric and imperial units of measurement. NASA (one of our premier scientific institutions in the US!) seems to claim that ice is in fact water... http://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/features/moon20090924.html I'd say we can conclude fairly safely that water is in fact water when solid and gaseous. Which, given your very specific definition of "wet", means that water can be wet. Quote: Or is it then classified as Ice and steam? Of course it can be classified as such. That does not mean that it is not water as well. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares and all that jazz ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Redora Gallente Universal Exports	Posted - 2009.12.08 07:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader The question then becomes, Is water still water when it is in its solid state or gaseous state? Or is it then classified as Ice and steam? Ice can be wet when immersed in water, that is certainly true. I wonder how much we can derail this thread debating the wetness of water. Dead on. Dihydrogen Monoxide in it's crystalline solid state is classified as "Ice" and is solid. Therefore, it can be wet. However, when liquid, it is "water" and as has been pointed out cannot be wet for want of a solid surface. When a gas, or "steam" it again suffers the lack of a solid surface, and thereby cannot be wet. "WATER" therefore cannot be wet, nor can steam, but Ice can.
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.12.08 07:29:00 - [39] Posting in best thread derailment ever. Continue...
Grarr Wrexx	Posted - 2009.12.08 07:34:00 - [40] Is anything solid ever really solid? Maybe it's just... a hardened liquid. If you see what you can do with ferrofluid nowadays, anything's possible!
Lusian	Posted - 2009.12.08 11:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Grarr Wrexx Is anything solid ever really solid? Maybe it's just... a hardened liquid. If you see what you can do with ferrofluid nowadays, anything's possible! There is no actual true liquid state. But individual compounds brought together can make a liquid/solid form. Typically at the atomic level, Nothing ever actually really touches anything. Magnetic fields prevent anything from ever actually 100% contact. I would have to say that nothing is permanent. There for all statements about water is true from the above. This is not a safe statement by any means. If you want to give meaning to something like water being in a solid state. Gas is solid. It is not as solid as you or I. So there is no absolute solid state. Just the density of particals makeing it harder for a nouther mass of particles to pass through. There is no individual actual form of anything. Just formlesness.
Cleron	Posted - 2009.12.08 11:31:00 - [42] A lot. ECM nerf NOS nerf DAMP nerf SPEED nerf Pulse Tracking Buff Harbinger arrived Abaddon arrived Resistance "balance" Riggs arrived MWD counter (Scram) Passive Tank Buff Faction Ammo Omen/Zealot buff Sacrilege Changes (Khanid MKII) Apocalypse Changes (Buff) Tech 2 for all (Invention) "Heat" arrived Exodus: Red Moon Rising (Major introduction of Tech2 ships) It's been a long hard road full of change that have taken place over many years. The end result is a more flexible Amarr that is not as hampered by speed, or the various forms of ECM that plagued the game at varying stages. We have new ships & mods that offer far more flexibility then anything we have seen in the past, and over all the race has seen many buffs, be it first hand changes, or side effects of larger EVE wide game play changes.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2009.12.08 12:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Lili Lu Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/12/2009 19:44:56 A 10% drop in resists is a REALLY BIG DEAL. Consider: 100 damage thrown at a ship with 75% resists. 25 damage gets through 100 damage thrown at a ship with 65% resists. 35 damage gets through 35 / 25 = 40% more applied damage There were other differences too: - The advent of nano shield tanking (lasers have good damage at range, and that's where these ships have traditionally stayed) - The pulse laser tracking boost - Extra turrets on the Zealot and Omen - The HUGE boost to the Apoc (making it hands down the best fleet BS) - Better ship theory - The debunking of "Minmatar are awesome - I mean LOOK AT ALL THAT FALLOFF WOOOO!" - The speed/agility nerfs -Liang I would say of all those the armor em resist change is the biggest, and is most responsible for beam zealots and apocs topping killmails. I thought at the time that a 10% drop on armor resists was too much, and I was an Amarr boost advocate at the time. 5% would have been fine and consequently I sort of hope that what CCP does, if they are going to do any nerfing to Amarr, is that it be an increase of the present 50% base armor em resist to 55%. I always hope for small steps in balancing, but we will probably get some massive re-nerf on Amarr because of all the fotm chasing and whines from those who aren't. This agreed 100% all it's really needed is that 5 %

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