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Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8041	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:17:00 - [31] - Quote Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote: I keep hearing all these reasons why Eve is PvP-centric...driven, what have you and whatnot. Of course, all those reasons can easily apply to the majority of other MMO games. No, they really can't. In what other games is the destruction of items the one thing that creates any room for mass production of any and all items? In what other games is everything subject to competition? In what other games is the centre-piece of the game a 100% player-run market? Quote: You CANNOT operate in any of them without butting heads with someone in even the most player friendly PvE type game. Why do you need to butt heads with people in WoW? Why do you need to butt heads with people in TOR? Why do you need to butt heads with people in DDO? Why do you need to butt heads with people in FFXI? Why do you need to butt heads with people in WHO? From what I've seen of them, they all offer you gameplay that can be done without any connection whatsoever to other players. Quote: But just because it isn't game-wide doesn't mean it's any less PvP. Eh. That makes roughly no sense at all. If it's not game wide, then it does indeed mean that it is less than if it were game-wide. That is kind of the point of saying that it is GÇ£not game wideGÇ¥. So yes, that pretty much disqualifies those games from having the same levels of PvP. Ironically, the people over there who complain about a lack of World PvP resist the opportunity to make adjustments on their side, instead feeling entitled to the developer changing the game to suit themselves, instead of changing themselves to suit the game. Quote: I can't speak for many other MMOs, because short of FFXI and Warhammer Online, I really haven't messed with too many other MMOs. Then maybe you shouldn't make such grand proclamations about how all games work, hmmGÇª? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Xavier Bandar Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 20	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:25:00 - [32] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? Depends. If you do it in Somalia, you might get kidnapped and ransomed by some warlord or just get shot in the face with an AK-47.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1971	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:32:00 - [33] - Quote Xavier Bandar wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? Depends. If you do it in Somalia, you might get kidnapped and ransomed by some warlord or just get shot in the face with an AK-47. Luckily, EvE is not nearly so safe as Somalia. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Squrriel Insurgent Kai Family Aperture Science Division T A B O O 8	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:39:00 - [34] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Xavier Bandar wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? Depends. If you do it in Somalia, you might get kidnapped and ransomed by some warlord or just get shot in the face with an AK-47. Luckily, EvE is not nearly so safe as Somalia. If anything Somalia learned from EvE players.
Ituhata Saken Caldari Provisions Caldari State 305	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:53:00 - [35] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? I dunno. If you were reading, can you be sure you didn't lose any fish? My guess is you have pulled your line up a few times and found an empty hook with no bait, which in that case you aren't fishing, you're feeding the fish in a rather unique way. You know what an answer is? It's a terminus -- an end. Answers are fine, but questions are where it's at. Questions bring us closer to understanding, -áthey can start a conversation or spark a revolution. So you might as well start asking... now.-á ~See you on the other side 6/6/12~
ashley Eoner 12	Posted - 2012.06.19 03:35:00 - [36] - Quote Squrriel Insurgent wrote: Makkal Hanaya wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: Question: what other mmo actually allows you to do that? Play while doing homework or housework? Lots of them. Off the top of my head: Guild Wars. World of Warcraft. The Old Republic. All those games r not pushed as open world pvp. People get into those games knowing that there r rules and regulations for pvp, also there pvp systems r structured. Saying when and where a player can or can not pvp. IE.. pve severe and pvp servers. So how do people say they didn't know Eve was open world pvp? Lineage 2 open world pvp people completely afk their way to goals and it was all legit. Terra has pure open world pvp servers and there';s things you can AFK your way to stuff. Aion's end game was pvp and people would AFK their way to stuff there too. Quote: Why do you need to butt heads with people in WoW? Why do you need to butt heads with people in TOR? Why do you need to butt heads with people in DDO? Why do you need to butt heads with people in FFXI? Why do you need to butt heads with people in WHO? From what I've seen of them, they all offer you gameplay that can be done without any connection whatsoever to other players. Well I always played on PVP servers so I always had to butt heads and usually for no real reason other then one of us saw red. I cannot comment on all the games you mentioned but in WoW and SWTOR on a pvp server you wouldn't get above a very low level without being open to being ganked.. As for FFXI people tended to use the environment to kill others..
Alexa Coates The Scope Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.06.19 04:59:00 - [37] - Quote pfftttahahahahahhh Is OP serious? he is? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Love my Gallente Federation Navy ships!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8055	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:12:00 - [38] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: Well I always played on PVP servers GÇªaaaaaand that's where the argument dives head-first into a very rocky ditch. If there is a distinction between PvP servers and other servers, then this tells us that the game can be played with no problem without having the PvP parts there. In other words, if you choose to, you do not need to butt heads with anyone. This represents a fundamental difference from EVE. This game cannot be played without the PvP parts because the game would no longer function with that bit removed. Nothing would have any purpose whatsoever any more. There would be no reason to build anything, no reason to do anything that provides ISK, and no reason to collect any resources (because they would have no use). You can get an approximate sense of how a GÇ£PvEGÇ¥ EVE would work by going to sisi, where you'll quickly realise how utterly meaningless everything is GÇö there's a reason why it doesn't get any huge population numbersGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:20:00 - [39] - Quote Squrriel Insurgent wrote: So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again.
Malacath Azaria xX-Crusader-Xx 6	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:21:00 - [40] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again. Strictly PvP is a bad way to put it. Revolves around PvP is pretty accurate though.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8055	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:23:00 - [41] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. GÇªor they'd make the ship creation PvP as well, much like what they did in EVE. Quote: Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again. GÇªexcept, of course, that we haven't concluded that since you haven't really provided an example of something that isn't PvP. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:32:00 - [42] - Quote Tippia wrote: Sisohiv wrote: In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. GÇªor they'd make the ship creation PvP as well, much like what they did in EVE. No This thread is now about Tippia and the bickering title on the forums.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1992	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:35:00 - [43] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again. PvP in EvE is any time player action gets in the way of what someone else wants. Wanna get somewhere, someone blows you up > PvP Wanna get a free ship, someone charges you for it > PvP Wanna get Isk for your mins, someone undercuts you > PvP Etc. Etc. Etc. There is no activity in EvE that doesn't impact another player (beside shipspinning). This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Malacath Azaria xX-Crusader-Xx 6	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:36:00 - [44] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: Tippia wrote: Sisohiv wrote: In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. GÇªor they'd make the ship creation PvP as well, much like what they did in EVE. No Please give us a detailed description on an in-game activity that is PvE only & does not have anything to do with PvP.
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:38:00 - [45] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Sisohiv wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again. PvP in EvE is any time player action gets in the way of what someone else wants. Wanna get somewhere, someone blows you up > PvP Wanna get a free ship, someone charges you for it > PvP Wanna get Isk for your mins, someone undercuts you > PvP Etc. Etc. Etc. There is no activity in EvE that doesn't impact another player (beside shipspinning). PvP provides barriers for the sake of barriers. It doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Industry. That is pure 100% PvE (in a strictly PvP game)
Malacath Azaria xX-Crusader-Xx 6	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:41:00 - [46] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Sisohiv wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? In a strictly PvP game, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no PvE in a strictly PvP game. We would be buying seeded ships that we unlock through PvP. I get 2000 kills I unlock Zealot. I get 5000 kills I unlock Absolution. Now that we have concluded EVE isn't a 'strictly PvP game' you sound like a babbling idiot. Fail troll has failed. Try again. PvP in EvE is any time player action gets in the way of what someone else wants. Wanna get somewhere, someone blows you up > PvP Wanna get a free ship, someone charges you for it > PvP Wanna get Isk for your mins, someone undercuts you > PvP Etc. Etc. Etc. There is no activity in EvE that doesn't impact another player (beside shipspinning). PvP provides barriers for the sake of barriers. It doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Industry. That is pure 100% PvE (in a strictly PvP game) Please explain why you believe that Industry is pure PvE.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8055	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:42:00 - [47] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: PvP provides barriers for the sake of barriers. It doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Industry. That is pure 100% PvE (in a strictly PvP game) SoGÇª what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry, again? Quote: No Sure they could. Not only that GÇö they did do it. Fancy that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2012.06.19 05:53:00 - [48] - Quote Tippia wrote: Sisohiv wrote: PvP provides barriers for the sake of barriers. It doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Industry. That is pure 100% PvE (in a strictly PvP game) SoGÇª what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry, again? What player am I fighting against when I do Industry? Player vs Player? How so? Everything is in the environment from seeded blueprints to spawned materials and they are all infinite. Where is there a demand to compete? What player did I compete with to take a mission? Are we on a limited number? Can an agent only offer 100 missions a day so I have to fight for them?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8056	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:01:00 - [49] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: What player am I fighting against when I do Industry? All other industrialists producing the same thing. Quote: Everything is in the environment from seeded blueprints to spawned materials and they are all infinite. GÇªexcept, of course, that the materials are far from infinite GÇö they're limited to their respawn/rebuild rate GÇö and that the blueprints (which are actually given player-influenced prices) require a fair bit of research to become useful (using limited industry slots subject to PvP competition). There is nothing PvE about industry. Nothing in the industrial environment offers any resistance. So I'll ask you again since you couldn't answer the first time: what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry? Quote: What player did I compete with to take a mission? The ones who come and steal your loot and compete for the salvage and mission completion items. Oh, and one more thing: what is the reason for doing industry and missions? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:28:00 - [50] - Quote Tippia wrote: Sisohiv wrote: What player am I fighting against when I do Industry? All other industrialists producing the same thing. Quote: Everything is in the environment from seeded blueprints to spawned materials and they are all infinite. GÇªexcept, of course, that the materials are far from infinite GÇö they're limited to their respawn/rebuild rate GÇö and that the blueprints (which are actually given player-influenced prices) require a fair bit of research to become useful (using limited industry slots subject to PvP competition). There is nothing PvE about industry. Nothing in the industrial environment offers any resistance. So I'll ask you again since you couldn't answer the first time: what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry? Quote: What player did I compete with to take a mission? The ones who come and steal your loot and compete for the salvage and mission completion items. Oh, and one more thing: what is the reason for doing industry and missions? This is your EVE PvP. Bickering and nit picking mundane details. Your ability to nag doesn't make you right but I can't be bothered to argue with you anymore. You win the forum? I guess that makes it PvP somehow because there was more than one person involved? I've never competed for anything in this game. It's that simple. Nobody has ever "stole my loot" or salvaged my wrecks or blew up my Hulk or kept me from running a mission. In 6 years, I have lost 1 ship. A frigate, while doing a level 4 I shouldn't have been doing in a frigate. Done for the lulz.. I've played for 6 years off and on, watched you nit pickers on the forums go on about a game that doesn't exist. Back in EVE the game, its mostly PvE with no motive or purpose other than to bore you out of your mind in hopes you will fight with other people for some reason we invent in our minds. I can and have gone on the test server, built stations, Titans and super carriers, made Corps, alliances and claimed Sov. All with absolutely No PvP because PvP is not an accomplishment in EVE. It's a barrier and not a very good one.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 8056	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:38:00 - [51] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: Your ability to nag doesn't make you right No. What makes me right is the fact that pretty much everything in EVE is PvP by design. In everything you do, you are facing competition from other players. The game is centred around a marketplace where some of the most vicious PvP happens. This marketplace is fed by a competitive (PvP) industry sector where players compete over resources and production facilities. The marketplace, in turn, feeds the continuous (PvP) war where all those products go to get blow up. Conversely, the (PvP) combat generates the demand that keeps the industry going and gives them a reason to provide that constant supply of goods: no combat = no demand = no industry = no market = no game. Quote: I've never competed for anything in this game. Yes you have. You just haven't bothered to try to win any of those engagements, and have just accepted the scraps left for you. Quote: I can and have gone on the test server, built stations, Titans and super carriers, made Corps, alliances and claimed Sov. All with absolutely No PvP becauseGÇª GÇªthe test server is set up to provide all those things that wouldn't exist without PvP (because non-consensual PvP is semi-banned there since it would otherwise interfere with the testing of some mechanics, and that would rather ruin the point of having a test server). The reason it wasn't an accomplishment was because it was on the test server where there was no PvP to stop you (and obviously no PvE either since EVE doesn't offer any obstacles based on PvE). On the real server, PvP isn't a barrier GÇö it's the driving force of the game, without which nothing would ever happen. By the way, you didn't answer the question: what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4083	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:42:00 - [52] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: Tippia wrote: Sisohiv wrote: PvP provides barriers for the sake of barriers. It doesn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Industry. That is pure 100% PvE (in a strictly PvP game) SoGÇª what environment are you fighting against when you're doing industry, again? What player am I fighting against when I do Industry? Do you sell anything you produce? Do you buy any player produced materials? Do you use limited production slots in a station? Do you use limited research slots in a station? Have you claimed one of the limited number of hi-sec moons for a POS? Have you moved valuable materials and items through space? Have you sold BPCs? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Aramatheia European Nuthouse 44	Posted - 2012.06.19 07:17:00 - [53] - Quote Squrriel Insurgent wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Xavier Bandar wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? Depends. If you do it in Somalia, you might get kidnapped and ransomed by some warlord or just get shot in the face with an AK-47. Luckily, EvE is not nearly so safe as Somalia. If anything Somalia learned from EvE players. then the russian navy comes along... lol
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1527	Posted - 2012.06.19 07:52:00 - [54] - Quote Sisohiv wrote: I've never competed for anything in this game. Have you never mined? Have you never built items for sale on the market? Have you never engaged in market speculation? Even if you are not actively mining rocks out from under other miners, you are still engaged in PVP. The rocks have a respawn rate: their supply is only infinite if you have infinite time. If you mine a belt out this hour, the miners who come to that belt next hour will have nothing to mine. You are always competing for limited resources, except when running missions (though I could conceivably probe you down and run your mission for you, claiming all your bounties, loot and salvage). As for miners complaining about PvP: the main complaint I have seen is not that Hulks are getting blown up, it is that it is too easy to blow hulks up when they are being used for their intended purpose. That can be resolved with higher agility and about 10MW more PG. No doubling of EHP, just the ability to fit a reasonable tank without resorting to an MAPC when the pilot has all-5s, and the ability to get out of the belt quickly when danger approaches. Yes, there are folks who want to be perfectly safe in hisec, just as there are people who think it is possible to force players to take their characters into lowsec. There are fools all around us. Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 3770	Posted - 2012.06.19 10:04:00 - [55] - Quote THE L0CK wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: I have heard a lot of pve miners who say to leave them alone in mining in high sec. Stating that mining in high sec is a easy to to play without playing. Having heard someone once state " mining in high sec is the easiest way for me to play while doing homework".I have read many statements just like that. Where people want to have an area where they can afk or not have to pay little attention to there game while they progress at the task at hand. Here's another mind bender. If you are afk mining, are you really playing the game? If a Hulk dies in Ammatar space, does CONCORD hear the death knell? ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.
RAP ACTION HERO 95	Posted - 2012.06.19 10:32:00 - [56] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Squrriel Insurgent wrote: .......... So please help me understand, in short you came to a strictly pvp driven game and ask to make it safe for you to pve mine with no worries of any negative repercussions? Please state your source for Eve being a strictly pvp game. Edit: If you set a fishing pole and then sit beside it and read, are you really fishing? it's not a pvp game but you can't escape surprise pvp deal with it.
Josef Djugashvilis The Scope Gallente Federation 323	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:02:00 - [57] - Quote I should like to take this opportunity to thank the op for starting this startlingly original thread. Why has no one else ever brought this mind-numbingly boring topic up before? You want fries with that?
Solstice Project I'm So Meta Even This Acronym 1556	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:04:00 - [58] - Quote Just wanted to say that i've noticed that people seem to believe that: What i'm not doing intentionally, i'm not doing. There are no side effects. There's no subconscious thought driving me (ever), and there's nothing meta about anything i do, ever. TL;DR: I'm ignorant about my influence on my environment. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1342	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:12:00 - [59] - Quote Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote: I can't speak for many other MMOs, because short of FFXI and Warhammer Online, I really haven't messed with too many other MMOs. I do know two things though...1) Eve is the ONLY MMO I have played where it is possible to play AFK legitimately (or at least mine, I have no idea how anyone can do anything else AFK and get anything accomplished), and 2) Every MMO I have played has a sect of players who want the E-Z Mode, as in wanting other players handed to them with a minimum of work performed. You can AFK level up in Warhammer Online just fine. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Ituhata Saken Caldari Provisions Caldari State 306	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:14:00 - [60] - Quote Solstice Project wrote: Just wanted to say that i've noticed that people seem to believe that: What i'm not doing intentionally, i'm not doing. There are no side effects. There's no subconscious thought driving me (ever), and there's nothing meta about anything i do, ever. TL;DR: I'm ignorant about my influence on my environment. I believe a rock is also ignorant of its influence on its environment.....oh god, you know what a rock is? An environment! Guys, guys! I found the environment everyone is competing against! You know what an answer is? It's a terminus -- an end. Answers are fine, but questions are where it's at. Questions bring us closer to understanding, -áthey can start a conversation or spark a revolution. So you might as well start asking... now.-á ~See you on the other side 6/6/12~

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