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Opportunity Costs Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.10 18:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 Some day I will be rich Some day I will fly an awesome ship Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP Some day I will forge a powerful empire ... ... ... TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game every once in a while, a new thread is created whose title is like "tell me how to enjoy this game" or so. and frankly, I think most of players have questioned themselves something like that at least twice in their eve-lifes. is EVE a long desired dream that never comes true? like an awesome based game with many possibilites and too much potential, but empty of real enjoyment when translating it into real world playing? Discuss. __________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.12.10 18:58:00 - [2] Enjoyed it from day 1, still do, always have, probably always will. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Laciter	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:00:00 - [3] You can do two of those easily right off the bat. Being rich either takes patience, loose morals, or good market information. "Awesome" is all relative. If you start out wanting a Titan, it will be a long way off. But if you set your sights on a sweet hot rod like a Dramiel, you'll be satisfied much quicker. I don't know a thing about forging an empire, but I have little interest in it.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:02:00 - [4] Why do the two need to be mutually exclusive? I mean if you're not enjoying playing the game without the uber-FOTM ship, why would you necessarily enjoy the game any more with it? Perhaps it's different varieties of players, I don't know. I know I, and a lot of the people I interact with regularly, have fun, regardless of what our long term goals are. My ultimate goal is to get into a carrier, but there are a lot of steps along that path. But that doesn't mean that I am mindlessly grinding away and that I am not having fun right now. Will I enjoy it when I get a carrier? I think so, but maybe not. But one thing is certain, I am definately having a good time right now, even without it. --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
Inertial The Scope	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:06:00 - [5] If you are thinking "some day I will X" then you are thinking wrongly. How about just doing it, instead of thinking about doing it some day.
WhiteSavage Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:17:00 - [6] yeah so you can move to 0.0 and do proper pvp whenever you decide to actually do it. To suggest that EVE is lacking because certain individuals dream of things but don't do anything to actually accomplish those dreams... :\
Neamus	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 Some day I will be rich Some day I will fly an awesome ship Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP Some day I will forge a powerful empire ... EvE succeeds because it doesn't guarantee any of this, how can it when the whole game is essentially player driven? An opening sequence, some intro missions and then... Well, its up to you really isn't it. Enjoyment or lack thereof is purely subjective. Some people prefer linear games with a clearly defined start/middle/end and set of rules to get from one end to the other. Personally I like the challenge of not actually knowing if I'll succeed or not, thats why I play eve. When I'm in the mood for something more linear (but still fkin awesome) I'll go play my current favorite, modern warfare 2.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 Some day I will be rich Some day I will drive an awesome car Some day I will live in a penthouse suite Some day I will marry a kickboxing supermodel Some day I will forge a powerful empire ... ... ... TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this life every once in a while, a new thread is created whose title is like "tell me how to enjoy this life" or so. and frankly, I think most of people have questioned themselves something like that at least twice in their lives. is success a long desired dream that never comes true? like an awesome dream with many possibilities and too much potential, but empty of real enjoyment when translating it into the real world? Discuss. I fixed this for you, to make it more apt. In EVE, what is the difference between you and the players that do become rich, fly awesome ships, live in 0.0, do proper PVP, and forge powerful empires? The answer, nothing.. other than your willingness to go out and do it. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ryhss Caldari Recalled Pleasure-Bots	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Winterblink Enjoyed it from day 1, still do, always have, probably always will. Same.
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:42:00 - [10] I loved this game since I first created my account, it just keeps getting better and better. It's like eve-o-lution and progression day to day. I am always finding new stuff and new ways to do things.
Dante Marduk Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Winterblink Enjoyed it from day 1, still do, always have, probably always will. QUIT POSTING MAKE A NEW WDA that is all
Lord Helghast	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:43:00 - [12] Edited by: Lord Helghast on 10/12/2009 20:43:17 Some day I will be rich - Come now whats "rich", when i hit 100m i thought i was rich when i cud buy 50 frigates, then i hit 1b and thought i was rich its relative Some day I will fly an awesome ship - Also relative, but the fact is the faction ships are awesome and easily obtainable, and battleships are wicked and easily obtainable after even 1 mth. Some day I will live in 0.0 - *Wow this is like saying, some day i'll ask that hot girl out, JUST FCKING GO! That same gate camper that pops u might recruit you. Some day I will get to do proper PVP - Relative, as a t1 alt frigate can proper pvp vs just about any other t1 frigate to an extent, what the fck is proper?* Some day I will forge a powerful empire - This is my idea of fun, especially when you get to do it with friends :D
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:46:00 - [13] You can get a totally awesome ship within the first few weeks...ie. a rifter :P, within the first month and a half, you could have yourself a jaguar or wolf and be even more totally awesome...
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:47:00 - [14] Someday CCP will release a patch that isn't FUBAR ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban
Pater Peccavi Minmatar The Bastards	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:51:00 - [15] I have plenty of fun flying what I can fly today. And then, when I finish training up for something new, it's not "Finally, can't believe how long that took," it's "Ooo! New toys!" Enjoy flying the stuff it's easy to train into, those things can be lots of fun and are generally cheaper to fly around and lose. Oh, and PvP. Nothing keeps EVE exciting like good ol' blood-pumpin, heart-thumpin PvP. _________
Serpent Kamri	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:34:00 - [16] The key to having fun in EVE is... ...wait for it... ...playing with the right people!
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Serpent Kamri The key to having fun in EVE is... ...wait for it... ...playing with the right people! So true, I was in a corp where the CEO gave half truths based on knee jerk reactions and liked to only take risks on the test server. We broke away and now have more fun then we ever had.
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Serpent Kamri The key to having fun in EVE is... ...wait for it... ...playing with the right people! /thread.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Dante Marduk Originally by: Winterblink Enjoyed it from day 1, still do, always have, probably always will. QUIT POSTING MAKE A NEW WDA that is all If I didn't have to work late this week I would have had another one out, dammit :P warp drive active \| nature vraie
Kelshall Gallente The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:42:00 - [20] ITT: Someone works out that the main 'hook' in MMOs for many, many people is the sense of always having something to aim at. More at 11.
Caroll Yanaki Gallente Stir Crazy Research and Manufacturing Wicked Nation	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:45:00 - [21] Edited by: Caroll Yanaki on 11/12/2009 16:45:34 I had the extreme luck to find some awesome folks in this game just three weeks since I've started it. The game still has tons of issues, but I must admit that it is unique. The uniquest of all other uniques, if I may. This game gave me new friends from all across the world, It's been two years already and I still fly with them. This game gave me a new, deeper prospective about "playing an MMORPG". This game gave me the feeling that I'm a part of something and that I can work for and help my buddies. And this fact makes me deeply immersed and entertained. I agree, it's the people that count.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Hoo Is Someday CCP will release a patch that isn't FUBAR They only do it because they know it makes you emorage. The rest of us flip skills for the patch week blues and enjoy ourselves catching up on real life or whooring the forums. Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:56:00 - [23] I have many long term plans and I very much look forwards to eventualy getting them done. There are currently no other MMOs that offer me long term goals.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 Some day I will be rich Some day I will fly an awesome ship Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP Some day I will forge a powerful empire ... ... ... TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game every once in a while, a new thread is created whose title is like "tell me how to enjoy this game" or so. and frankly, I think most of players have questioned themselves something like that at least twice in their eve-lifes. is EVE a long desired dream that never comes true? like an awesome based game with many possibilites and too much potential, but empty of real enjoyment when translating it into real world playing? Discuss. Why don't you just get an awesome ship? Whay don't you just get inot 0.0? Why don't you do proper PVP? These things are ther, go and do them. The only limits are artifical limits that people impose on themseld due to their wierd mentality. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Winters Chill Amarr Shadow Legion.	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:13:00 - [25] Its called goal oriented gameplay. Your supposed to enjoy the ride as you go. If you can't your probably playing the wrong game. Eves not for everyone, if you want to like it but can't maybe try jump-gate evolution when its out. Or perhaps unsubscribe for abit and wait for an expansion that has features you like. If you don't vote with your wallet how is a producer meant to know anything is wrong?
Psiri	Posted - 2009.12.11 17:35:00 - [26] After the first year, you really have no excuse not to be playing the game actively. If you haven't settled down for a ship or field that you like already, it shouldn't take you much longer than 3 months at most to do so. If you still find yourself not playing, quit.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 Some day I will be rich Some day I will fly an awesome ship Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP Some day I will forge a powerful empire ... ... ... TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game every once in a while, a new thread is created whose title is like "tell me how to enjoy this game" or so. and frankly, I think most of players have questioned themselves something like that at least twice in their eve-lifes. is EVE a long desired dream that never comes true? like an awesome based game with many possibilites and too much potential, but empty of real enjoyment when translating it into real world playing? Discuss. Once you free yourself of the idea that you you have to be the awesomest bestest MAX LEVEL END-GAME dude to have fun, then you will.
Ryhss Caldari Recalled Pleasure-Bots Sanctimony of Bellum	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Hoo Is Someday CCP will release a patch that isn't FUBAR They only do it because they know it makes you emorage. The rest of us flip skills for the patch week blues and enjoy ourselves catching up on real life or whooring the forums. QFT. I concur wholeheartedly.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Some day I will be rich Some day I will fly an awesome ship Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP Some day I will forge a powerful empire Who's making these promises? EVE sure isn't. At best, EVE promises that you'll lose your money, your awesome ship, get kicked out of 0.0, get ganked and see your plans get ground to dust. The promises you're talking about are ones you make. So the only one who can fulfil them is you – the game sure won't do it for you. Quote: is EVE a long desired dream that never comes true? Depends what kind of goals and desires you set up for yourself – EVE offers neither. Yes, there are oodles of potential and possibilities, but you're the one who has to realise them Quote: TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game Why not start now? Nothing is stopping you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mydrial Jacor Amarr SniggWaffe Greater Pathetic Community	Posted - 2009.12.11 20:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Winterblink Enjoyed it from day 1, still do, always have, probably always will. Same. You get out of your game what you put in.
Gottii Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 20:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Malcanis Once you free yourself of the idea that you you have to be the awesomest bestest MAX LEVEL END-GAME dude to have fun, then you will. This. Theyre not kidding when they say you can do "proper" pvp as a day 1 pilot.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.11 20:59:00 - [32] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs o TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game WHAT THE **!??! WHAT THE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! The reason I don't understand is this. You remember (well maybe not) like the first time you loaded, say DOOM up, and you were this dude with a tiny pistol. Did you not enjoy the game until you got the BFG 9000? Or say, fallout 3, when you were a poxy dude and had none of the cool weapons and skills you do towards the end. Did you not enjoy the game like, when you started playing it and only enjoyed the end? Is it not the experience of actually making your character better, richer, wiser and more connected enough for you?!?! Is the experience of flying around in a spaceship, slowly upgrading it and making it better not what you wanted? Is the satisfaction of finally getting enough money to buy your first BC not satisfying enough. Is the experience of making friends, forming corporations or trying to do something like start a manufacturing industry not enough? Is the trading system not complex enough to tax your mind? Is the PVP not intricate enough for you? Is the massive adrenaline surge not enough in PVP for you? Is the grin from ear to ear as you blast another ship out of the sky knowing you outsmarted another player not enough? Is beating that level 4 you couldn't beat before because you bought that better module or trained that skill finally to lvl 5 not enough for you? Is finally getting all that ore mined and refined to build and undock your first BS not enough? You little **. I hope you get banned and you never play another game as long as you live.
Alaura Aquila Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:06:00 - [33] Edited by: Alaura Aquila on 11/12/2009 21:06:37 Originally by: Hannibal Ord Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs o TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game WHAT THE **!??! WHAT THE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! The reason I don't understand is this. You remember (well maybe not) like the first time you loaded, say DOOM up, and you were this dude with a tiny pistol. Did you not enjoy the game until you got the BFG 9000? Or say, fallout 3, when you were a poxy dude and had none of the cool weapons and skills you do towards the end. Did you not enjoy the game like, when you started playing it and only enjoyed the end? Is it not the experience of actually making your character better, richer, wiser and more connected enough for you?!?! Is the experience of flying around in a spaceship, slowly upgrading it and making it better not what you wanted? Is the satisfaction of finally getting enough money to buy your first BC not satisfying enough. Is the experience of making friends, forming corporations or trying to do something like start a manufacturing industry not enough? Is the trading system not complex enough to tax your mind? Is the PVP not intricate enough for you? Is the massive adrenaline surge not enough in PVP for you? Is the grin from ear to ear as you blast another ship out of the sky knowing you outsmarted another player not enough? Is beating that level 4 you couldn't beat before because you bought that better module or trained that skill finally to lvl 5 not enough for you? Is finally getting all that ore mined and refined to build and undock your first BS not enough? You little *. I hope you get banned and you never play another game as long as you live. Even though your post is right on, the use of italics to encapsulate your response makes it look like one giant quote.*
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:11:00 - [34] Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 11/12/2009 21:12:16 Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 11/12/2009 21:11:16 Originally by: Alaura Aquila Edited by: Alaura Aquila on 11/12/2009 21:08:29 Originally by: Hannibal Ord Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs o TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game WHAT THE **!??! WHAT THE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! The reason I don't understand is this. You remember (well maybe not) like the first time you loaded, say DOOM up, and you were this dude with a tiny pistol. Did you not enjoy the game until you got the BFG 9000? Or say, fallout 3, when you were a poxy dude and had none of the cool weapons and skills you do towards the end. Did you not enjoy the game like, when you started playing it and only enjoyed the end? Is it not the experience of actually making your character better, richer, wiser and more connected enough for you?!?! Is the experience of flying around in a spaceship, slowly upgrading it and making it better not what you wanted? Is the satisfaction of finally getting enough money to buy your first BC not satisfying enough. Is the experience of making friends, forming corporations or trying to do something like start a manufacturing industry not enough? Is the trading system not complex enough to tax your mind? Is the PVP not intricate enough for you? Is the massive adrenaline surge not enough in PVP for you? Is the grin from ear to ear as you blast another ship out of the sky knowing you outsmarted another player not enough? Is beating that level 4 you couldn't beat before because you bought that better module or trained that skill finally to lvl 5 not enough for you? Is finally getting all that ore mined and refined to build and undock your first BS not enough? You little **. I hope you get banned and you never play another game as long as you live. Even though your post is right on, the use of italics to encapsulate your response makes it look like one giant quote. edit: weird, it's making mine that way too It certainly was not my intention of doing that. I'm assuming it's a bug and I'm putting in my petition now. Maybe I have done something to the whole of this thread.
Ipsis Carr	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:16:00 - [35] This just in. Hannibal Ord breaks the internet. More as this situation develops.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Hannibal Ord Originally by: Alaura Aquila Even though your post is right on, the use of italics to encapsulate your response makes it look like one giant quote. edit: weird, it's making mine that way too It certainly was not my intention of doing that. I'm assuming it's a bug and I'm putting in my petition now. Maybe I have done something to the whole of this thread. It's because he didn't fully remove OC's edit tag and left it open. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hannibal Ord Originally by: Alaura Aquila Even though your post is right on, the use of italics to encapsulate your response makes it look like one giant quote. edit: weird, it's making mine that way too It certainly was not my intention of doing that. I'm assuming it's a bug and I'm putting in my petition now. Maybe I have done something to the whole of this thread. It's because he didn't fully remove OC's edit tag and left it open. I fail at the forums.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:22:00 - [38] I think I should stop waiting for ccp to change the game-mechanics beyond having it set up for a neverending "balancing" fest. I dislike how sniping ships are so easy to probe down. Having a sniping ship at a greater range is vulnerable to being probed down in no time. Tactical options like distance, and positioning is basicly nullified by the threat of scan probing. I worry that ccp have no vision for game mechanics other than "balancing" issues.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:26:00 - [39] Just because I read some curious sequences... Quote: The reason I don't understand is this. You remember (well maybe not) like the first time you loaded, say DOOM up, and you were this dude with a tiny pistol. Did you not enjoy the game until you got the BFG 9000? You know that the difficulty was progressive, so you can enjoy killing small monsters with small guns, and with time you encounter big monsters, but also big guns. Also in Fallout, at least there is an history (well, the 1st and 2nd...) ^^ In EVE, at beginning, you can't be competitive against players who have high skill in industry, until you get yourself the same skills & stuff, etc... Yesterday, a miner of my Corp tried to do PVP. Will is important, but as he don't pilot big ships, he came with a frigate. He felt he was useless, and indeed, a frigate is nearly useless today in big fights. If he want enjoy it, he has to skill Intys or BC at minimum, who requires time... But the time required to get an "awesome" ship, you have to do something with the small ship you have, in a world of skilled players... Difficult. It is more harder to enjoy the game in his actual state, than some years ago. So it is more harder & longer for new players to enjoy the game. Also : Quote: Is it not the experience of actually making your character better, richer, wiser and more connected enough for you?!?! You really don't need much to be happy, don't you ? It is not a Tamagotchi... Quote: Is the satisfaction of finally getting enough money to buy your first BC not satisfying enough. Is beating that level 4 you couldn't beat before because you bought that better module or trained that skill finally to lvl 5 not enough for you? This contentate everyone only... 5 minutes. Quote: Is the grin from ear to ear as you blast another ship out of the sky knowing you outsmarted another player not enough? I guess you speak about the rare solo fights. In alliance wars, kill someone is just a formality. Quote: Is finally getting all that ore mined and refined to build and undock your first BS not enough? Funny, I did that. That was just annoying at hell... Quote: You little ***. I hope you get banned and you never play another game as long as you live. I hope you will learn one day that everyone is different and so that they don't have the same definition of fun than you. You have your fun in a way, and this is a good news, but everyone don't have yours. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have.* - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.11 23:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Sky Marshal Just because I read some curious sequences... Quote: The reason I don't understand is this. You remember (well maybe not) like the first time you loaded, say DOOM up, and you were this dude with a tiny pistol. Did you not enjoy the game until you got the BFG 9000? You know that the difficulty was progressive, so you can enjoy killing small monsters with small guns, and with time you encounter big monsters, but also big guns. Also in Fallout, at least there is an history (well, the 1st and 2nd...) ^^ In EVE, at beginning, you can't be competitive against players who have high skill in industry, until you get yourself the same skills & stuff, etc... Yesterday, a miner of my Corp tried to do PVP. Will is important, but as he don't pilot big ships, he came with a frigate. He felt he was useless, and indeed, a frigate is nearly useless today in big fights. If he want enjoy it, he has to skill Intys or BC at minimum, who requires time... But the time required to get an "awesome" ship, you have to do something with the small ship you have, in a world of skilled players... Difficult. It is more harder to enjoy the game in his actual state, than some years ago. So it is more harder & longer for new players to enjoy the game. Also : Quote: Is it not the experience of actually making your character better, richer, wiser and more connected enough for you?!?! You really don't need much to be happy, don't you ? It is not a Tamagotchi... Quote: Is the satisfaction of finally getting enough money to buy your first BC not satisfying enough. Is beating that level 4 you couldn't beat before because you bought that better module or trained that skill finally to lvl 5 not enough for you? This contentate everyone only... 5 minutes. Quote: Is the grin from ear to ear as you blast another ship out of the sky knowing you outsmarted another player not enough? I guess you speak about the rare solo fights. In alliance wars, kill someone is just a formality. Quote: Is finally getting all that ore mined and refined to build and undock your first BS not enough? Funny, I did that. That was just annoying at hell... Quote: You little **. I hope you get banned and you never play another game as long as you live. I hope you will learn one day that everyone is different and so that they don't have the same definition of fun than you. You have your fun in a way, and this is a good news, but everyone don't have yours. EvE is basically a Tamagotchi. Most if not all RPG games are. Just a more complicated one where I can interfere with other peoples Tamagotchi in our spaceship Tamagotchi Society. Regarding your friend the miner and getting the awesome ship. THere is no such thing. There is a right ship or a wrong ship for any given situation. If we are talking combat PVP, there are plenty of solo and group kills in tech I frigates. He might have been useless to YOUR gang and the fight you were about to have. It doesn't make that ship useless for other things at all, and other PVP situations. If EvE is so boring and tedious, why play it then? There must be something you find interesting about it that makes you play it? And if you don't like it, then why would you or anyone else make a post saying it's a game that never meets expectations, when for most people, it clearly does tick quiet a few boxes. What are they hoping to achieve by this? Are they hoping we will all just blink and go "You know what, yeah. This is a ing ** game why am I playing it and it's so boring." To say you cannot achieve anything in EvE online is utterly ridiculous, mindless and complete crap. If anything, it is the ONLY MMORPG in the world that actually, you can achieve something that has a lasting imprint on the game, if you really wanted to, and has more professions/trades and playstyles than any game I have ever known.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:01:00 - [41] I pay yearly subscriptions because I know I'll just be playing eve lol. This last patch made flying minmatar really fun, hopefully it lasts. Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Pesets The Hunt Club	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:39:00 - [42] Originally by: Ranger 1 In EVE, what is the difference between you and the players that do become rich, fly awesome ships, live in 0.0, do proper PVP, and forge powerful empires? The answer, nothing.. other than your willingness to go out and do it in game, when you could be going out and doing it in real life. Fixed that for you :p ____________________________________________________________________ Pesets - Russian for 'polar wolf'. Pronounced like 'presets' without the 'r'.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 00:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Hannibal Ord If EvE is so boring and tedious, why play it then? There must be something you find interesting about it that makes you play it? And if you don't like it, then why would you or anyone else make a post saying it's a game that never meets expectations, when for most people, it clearly does tick quiet a few boxes. Whell, I think you'll find that dreams, wishes and concerns for the future is a common human predicament. I'd say that a persistence to treat the human project as self-enjoyment is unfair, given that eve-online now has been an online game for a long time. In other words, it makes sense to have expectations and winning isn't everything, being apart of it all is what makes it worth it while imo. "EvE is basically a Tamagotchi." Not really, it's an MMO with real people in it. If eve really was like a Tamagotchi, I wouldn't be playing it not even with other people. So I don't play AoC, Lotr or so far any other mmo.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.12.12 03:21:00 - [44] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 12/12/2009 03:22:27 Originally by: Hannibal Ord EvE is basically a Tamagotchi. Most if not all RPG games are. Just a more complicated one where I can interfere with other peoples Tamagotchi in our spaceship Tamagotchi Society. Regarding your friend the miner and getting the awesome ship. THere is no such thing. There is a right ship or a wrong ship for any given situation. If we are talking combat PVP, there are plenty of solo and group kills in tech I frigates. He might have been useless to YOUR gang and the fight you were about to have. It doesn't make that ship useless for other things at all, and other PVP situations. If EvE is so boring and tedious, why play it then? There must be something you find interesting about it that makes you play it? And if you don't like it, then why would you or anyone else make a post saying it's a game that never meets expectations, when for most people, it clearly does tick quiet a few boxes. What are they hoping to achieve by this? Are they hoping we will all just blink and go "You know what, yeah. This is a **ing game why am I playing it and it's so boring." To say you cannot achieve anything in EvE online is utterly ridiculous, mindless and complete crap. If anything, it is the ONLY MMORPG in the world that actually, you can achieve something that has a lasting imprint on the game, if you really wanted to, and has more professions/trades and playstyles than any game I have ever known. I see EVE more like a big MSN with some small complex games (PVP, Mining, Mission, etc...). Everyone has his view of the game ^^ Nevertheless, I said ½ a frigate is nearly useless today in big fights. +. I didn't say ½ a frigate is nearly useless today + [Period here]. So your lesson about the frigate is meaningless. Why play EVE if it is boring ? Well, the fact is that apart EVE, there is nearly zero games in a modern or futuristic era... I am tired of the overused fantasy one, so I do with EVE... Ok more seriously (well, I was a few... ^^), EVE is a game where expectations are high, as you have to wait weeks to get access to some stuffs. During this time, you have to wait or do with your actual low level... So yes, it is boring, but we hope that the new ship or job will correct that... And sometimes realized that it didn't ^^ It took nearly a year for me to find fun in EVE, by virtually removing the skill limitation. Also, hopefully I found 0.0 interresting (!= fun, but this helps), or I would leave. But it is possible that some players don't find it, and so ask for tips here. Originally by:** Gottii This. Theyre not kidding when they say you can do "proper" pvp as a day 1 pilot. Yeah... "Proper" PVP in a frigate with no damage control or some other modules or weapons against what ? A badger ? _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Jas Dor Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 04:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Sky Marshal Just because I read some curious sequences... In EVE, at beginning, you can't be competitive against players who have high skill in industry, until you get yourself the same skills & stuff, etc... Yesterday, a miner of my Corp tried to do PVP. Will is important, but as he don't pilot big ships, he came with a frigate. He felt he was useless, and indeed, a frigate is nearly useless today in big fights. If he want enjoy it, he has to skill Intys or BC at minimum, who requires time... But the time required to get an "awesome" ship, you have to do something with the small ship you have, in a world of skilled players... Difficult. I don't know about that, being able to grab a tackle in a big fight can be pretty important. Sure he was only in a frig but how many of the other guys had frigs removed from overview? Did he get onto any killmails?
James'Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2009.12.12 06:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi Originally by: Hannibal Ord If EvE is so boring and tedious, why play it then? There must be something you find interesting about it that makes you play it? And if you don't like it, then why would you or anyone else make a post saying it's a game that never meets expectations, when for most people, it clearly does tick quiet a few boxes. Whell, I think you'll find that dreams, wishes and concerns for the future is a common human predicament. I'd say that a persistence to treat the human project as self-enjoyment is unfair, given that eve-online now has been an online game for a long time. In other words, it makes sense to have expectations and winning isn't everything, being apart of it all is what makes it worth it while imo. "EvE is basically a Tamagotchi." Not really, it's an MMO with real people in it. If eve really was like a Tamagotchi, I wouldn't be playing it not even with other people. So I don't play AoC, Lotr or so far any other mmo. LOL. Yes it is a Tamagotchi. It's not the game per say but the character you build up. Let's face it we are all looking after little avatars. The difference as he said was that the little avatars play together and are controlled by other people.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.12 06:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 12/12/2009 03:22:27 Originally by: Hannibal Ord EvE is basically a Tamagotchi. Most if not all RPG games are. Just a more complicated one where I can interfere with other peoples Tamagotchi in our spaceship Tamagotchi Society. Regarding your friend the miner and getting the awesome ship. THere is no such thing. There is a right ship or a wrong ship for any given situation. If we are talking combat PVP, there are plenty of solo and group kills in tech I frigates. He might have been useless to YOUR gang and the fight you were about to have. It doesn't make that ship useless for other things at all, and other PVP situations. If EvE is so boring and tedious, why play it then? There must be something you find interesting about it that makes you play it? And if you don't like it, then why would you or anyone else make a post saying it's a game that never meets expectations, when for most people, it clearly does tick quiet a few boxes. What are they hoping to achieve by this? Are they hoping we will all just blink and go "You know what, yeah. This is a **ing game why am I playing it and it's so boring." To say you cannot achieve anything in EvE online is utterly ridiculous, mindless and complete crap. If anything, it is the ONLY MMORPG in the world that actually, you can achieve something that has a lasting imprint on the game, if you really wanted to, and has more professions/trades and playstyles than any game I have ever known. I see EVE more like a big MSN with some small complex games (PVP, Mining, Mission, etc...). Everyone has his view of the game ^^ Nevertheless, I said ½ a frigate is nearly useless today in big fights. +. I didn't say ½ a frigate is nearly useless today + [Period here]. So your lesson about the frigate is meaningless. Why play EVE if it is boring ? Well, the fact is that apart EVE, there is nearly zero games in a modern or futuristic era... I am tired of the overused fantasy one, so I do with EVE... Ok more seriously (well, I was a few... ^^), EVE is a game where expectations are high, as you have to wait weeks to get access to some stuffs. During this time, you have to wait or do with your actual low level... So yes, it is boring, but we hope that the new ship or job will correct that... And sometimes realized that it didn't ^^ It took nearly a year for me to find fun in EVE, by virtually removing the skill limitation. Also, hopefully I found 0.0 interresting (!= fun, but this helps), or I would leave. But it is possible that some players don't find it, and so ask for tips here. Originally by:** Gottii This. Theyre not kidding when they say you can do "proper" pvp as a day 1 pilot. Yeah... "Proper" PVP in a frigate with no damage control or some other modules or weapons against what ? A badger ? Well I disagree that it is boring. You get out of a game what you put in I think. I disagree that young characters with frigates are not useful. I feel very sorry for you that you are bored in a game that has quiet a massive scope. I'm going to put it down to being limited by the people you have interacted with in EvE and I suggest really that you stop paying to play a game which you don't enjoy. EvE Online will always get better and better and has changed a lot with many more aspects than it had at launch. But it does not instantly gratify. You have the make the stuff happen I guess. There are a few Sci Fi games out there, one of them is even a single sharded one like EvE. But I certainly ain't going to tell you what that is (that would ruin the fun).
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.12 08:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Megan Maynard I pay yearly subscriptions because I know I'll just be playing eve lol. This last patch made flying minmatar really fun, hopefully it lasts. I hope it lasts longer than the Nag fix
Bruno George	Posted - 2009.12.12 09:34:00 - [49] hmmm, I wonder if the OP is talking about our hopes and escapism. To be an actual immortal pod pilot flying expensive ships light years away in another galaxy. Eve is set 21000 years in the future, can you imagine where the human race will be in 21000 years, Dinosaurs where around for millions of years, so I think we have a chance if we dont slaughter each other in the names of gods and politics on Earth when we could do it in space!
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2009.12.12 09:59:00 - [50] Still enjoy this game. The key for me is taking breaks. Just got back after 9 months and flying around looking at all the new pretty planets. Probably going to give FW a go this time, maybe some cheap lulz in there. ________ My views represent the views of my corporation, deal with it.
TechDealer Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:07:00 - [51] Edited by: TechDealer on 12/12/2009 10:08:09 3 months in the game i feel i spend more time looking in the forum compared to the game. because i have never seen so much question similiar to this thread appearing in the newbie and general forums. but for sure i feel eve is really like a msn with mini games. not sure if it is worth the 15 bucks subscription.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:43:00 - [52] Originally by: James'Tiberius Kirk LOL. Yes it is a Tamagotchi. It's not the game per say but the character you build up. Let's face it we are all looking after little avatars. The difference as he said was that the little avatars play together and are controlled by other people. I am not my car, nor my parents, nor my pc game. I can't deny that to some degree, by playing with an avatar the avatar is playing me, but I am interacting with a game that has a fantasy setting. Would you compare a future wife of yours to be basiclly a Tamagotchi? I don't see much of a point in your analogy, comparing an MMO to a Tamagotchi. If ccp thinks our accounts is a tamagotchi for us, then I would like to have it confirmed by them. Afaik a Tamagotchi does not interact that much with other people's Tamagotchi. I think this solve the problem at hand here, if the avatar is assumed to be a game in itself.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.12 10:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi Originally by: James'Tiberius Kirk LOL. Yes it is a Tamagotchi. It's not the game per say but the character you build up. Let's face it we are all looking after little avatars. The difference as he said was that the little avatars play together and are controlled by other people. I am not my car, nor my parents, nor my pc game. I can't deny that to some degree, by playing with an avatar the avatar is playing me, but I am interacting with a game that has a fantasy setting. Would you compare a future wife of yours to be basiclly a Tamagotchi? I don't see much of a point in your analogy, comparing an MMO to a Tamagotchi. If ccp thinks our accounts is a tamagotchi for us, then I would like to have it confirmed by them. Afaik a Tamagotchi does not interact that much with other people's Tamagotchi. I think this solve the problem at hand here, if the avatar is assumed to be a game in itself. Oh who cares. EvE is great. I'm sad you guys don't enjoy playing it for all the money spent and time invested. I still enjoy the adventure and the constant learning after 4 years about all the aspects of this game. It promises much and delivers much. It will continue to do so and will get better at every expansion.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 11:06:00 - [54] Originally by: Hannibal Ord It will continue to do so and will get better at every expansion. Any predictions? Let me guess, they will balance it? Is balancing what you had in mind when you wrote about getting better at every expansion?
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.12.12 11:23:00 - [55] Originally by: Jas Dor I don't know about that, being able to grab a tackle in a big fight can be pretty important. Sure he was only in a frig but how many of the other guys had frigs removed from overview? Did he get onto any killmails? As the server was so laggy that a part of the fleet had to delog because desynched after a jump, I doubt that he got any killmails. Originally by: Hannibal Ord Well I disagree that it is boring. You get out of a game what you put in I think. I disagree that young characters with frigates are not useful. I feel very sorry for you that you are bored in a game that has quiet a massive scope. I'm going to put it down to being limited by the people you have interacted with in EvE and I suggest really that you stop paying to play a game which you don't enjoy. EvE Online will always get better and better and has changed a lot with many more aspects than it had at launch. But it does not instantly gratify. You have the make the stuff happen I guess. There are a few Sci Fi games out there, one of them is even a single sharded one like EvE. But I certainly ain't going to tell you what that is (that would ruin the fun). I think you over-estimate a few the "massive scope". Some scandals demotivated people to try and impact the EvE reputation, but hopefully, there is still new people to come. I will agree about what Admiral Pelleon just said few posts ago : ½ The key for me is taking breaks. + I do that sometimes, and two times within the first year of EvE. Hopefully, there was also the Ghost Training feature at this time, who motivated me to return to discover what I just finished. Today it is not the case but the needs are not the same, I have enough skills to play... but it was still a bad idea to remove it. EvE Online get better ? IMO, EvE become more and more "Tank Online" as nerfs removes diversity from the game (Nosferatus useless, RSD nearly useless, Tracking Disrupt useless, Nano is out, MS is out, etc...), but this is not the topic to speak about it :D Everyone has his view of the game. I am happy that you find fun since nearly day 1, but you have to understand that it is not so easy for everyone. And leaving because few days are boring is not a solution, or I guess that 0.0 would be empty (the over-boring logistic time ^^, etc...). _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.12 11:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi Originally by: Hannibal Ord It will continue to do so and will get better at every expansion. Any predictions? Let me guess, they will balance it? Is balancing what you had in mind when you wrote about getting better at every expansion? LOL. That. And everything else.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 13:11:00 - [57] What else?
Puppy UK	Posted - 2009.12.12 16:07:00 - [58] I am rich, i fly an awesome ship, i live in 0.0, i do proper PVP, and i am part of a powerful empire. I enjoy this game, and have done since i started playing. Some people are just not cut out for eve.. go play wow :D I FC Bestest Drunkies
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2009.12.12 16:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Some day I will fly an awesome ship When I started back in 109 I wished that some day I would fly an awesome ship. For two years now I have been flying my favorite ship class, the frigate. So I am not only able to fly ONE awesome ship, but 70 awesome ships (give or take). In EVE, you are what you make of yourself. That could be a pilot satisfied with the ship he flies, his abilities and the game in general, or it could be a sad panda that never reaches his goals because his goals are not well defined. If you want to fly a ship, fly it. If you want to PVP, do it. Of course, if you want to be one of those people that aren't satisfied with the way the game works, FID is that way ---> Have a nice day.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar ORE Holdings	Posted - 2009.12.12 23:08:00 - [60] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi What else? Guess you aren't a beta player.
Skoot Dracula Order Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.12.12 23:30:00 - [61] best way to get rich is to trick people into trusting you then rip them off. Start with your friends.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.12 23:31:00 - [62] Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 12/12/2009 23:31:57 Originally by: Hannibal Ord Guess you aren't a beta player. The problem I have with Eve, is that even if some things are getting better, or even if new elements are added, I suspect that CCP is too set in their ways with their game-design and are either stubbornly holding onto concepts with strict plans to keep it that way, or they simply find it unappealing to make certain changes due to either userbase or lack of interest. So if I could try another question with you, it would be; Do you suppose that there are things that you think cannot be changed, even when 3 years+ into the future? I think they are locked in a balancing hell with little or no incentive to re-invent game mechanics.
Skoot Dracula Order Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.12.12 23:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 12/12/2009 23:31:57 Originally by: Hannibal Ord Guess you aren't a beta player. The problem I have with Eve, is that even if some things are getting better, or even if new elements are added, I suspect that CCP is too set in their ways with their game-design and are either stubbornly holding onto concepts with strict plans to keep it that way, or they simply find it unappealing to make certain changes due to either userbase or lack of interest. So if I could try another question with you, it would be; Do you suppose that there are things that you think cannot be changed, even when 3 years+ into the future? I think they are locked in a balancing hell with little or no incentive to re-invent game mechanics. They just removed the doomsday, what the hell are you talking about.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.13 02:13:00 - [64] Please concider a radical idea of pacing like this idea I came up with just now LINKY. No way they would come up with something like this on their own. And perhaps it would be dismissed outright because people seem to want to pew pew in a chaotic and same same way, where "fun" and "reward" are either killmails or loot, and not so much the buildup and escalation of combat.
Sola Veritas Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.13 05:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Opportunity Costs Edited by: Opportunity Costs on 10/12/2009 18:53:55 TLDR: Some day I will enjoy this game every once in a while, a new thread is created whose title is like "tell me how to enjoy this game" or so. and frankly, I think most of players have questioned themselves something like that at least twice in their eve-lifes. is EVE a long desired dream that never comes true? like an awesome based game with many possibilites and too much potential, but empty of real enjoyment when translating it into real world playing? Eventually I realized this fact: If I put half the amount of effort I did in Eve into my real-life, I would not only get twice the amount done, but it would directly affect my real life (duh) and the lives of those around me. Needless to say what would happen if I put in as much effort or more into real life. The possibilities were staggering. Eve is a great training ground. But it should be a means to and end, a sort of training ground for learning economics, politics, leadership, or business management. Anyone that pursues it as an end to itself will be sorely disappointed when they realize their alarm clocking was all just to move a few ones and zeros on some server in Iceland. It was fun while it lasted, but it is ultimately "just a game". I don't need to feed my avatar like the identity fetish that it isùit is a cypher for learning things to be applied elsewhere. When I do that, then the game suddenly becomes "fun" again.
Dramund	Posted - 2009.12.13 06:12:00 - [66] Originally by: Sola Veritas Eventually I realized this fact: If I put half the amount of effort I did in Eve into my real-life, I would not only get twice the amount done, but it would directly affect my real life (duh) and the lives of those around me. Needless to say what would happen if I put in as much effort or more into real life. The possibilities were staggering. Eve is a great training ground. But it should be a means to and end, a sort of training ground for learning economics, politics, leadership, or business management. Anyone that pursues it as an end to itself will be sorely disappointed when they realize their alarm clocking was all just to move a few ones and zeros on some server in Iceland. It was fun while it lasted, but it is ultimately "just a game". I don't need to feed my avatar like the identity fetish that it isùit is a cypher for learning things to be applied elsewhere. When I do that, then the game suddenly becomes "fun" again. I found my attitude quite the opposite. When I tried to approach Eve with the idea of learning something, I got frustrated with the sheer amount of esoteric game mechanics I need to know. Instead, why not split your time between efficient learning and completely screwing around in Eve? I found Eve to be a rather energizing experience when I devoted an off-night to drinking beer and failing miserably in PvP.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.13 06:29:00 - [67] Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 13/12/2009 06:30:51 Originally by: Opportunity Costs Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP ... There is no reason why you should not be able to do both of these on day 1. Though I can not say how the character creation process currently works, I had no trouble at all going around and killing people in a frig on a 1 or 2 day old alt a year or so ago. All you need to do be able to live in 0.0 and do "proper 'PVP'" is to be able to fly a frig and fit a warp disruptor. Originally by: Sola Veritas server in Iceland. The servers are in the UK.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.13 09:49:00 - [68] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 13/12/2009 06:30:51 Originally by: Opportunity Costs Some day I will live in 0.0 Some day I will get to do proper PVP ... There is no reason why you should not be able to do both of these on day 1. Though I can not say how the character creation process currently works, I had no trouble at all going around and killing people in a frig on a 1 or 2 day old alt a year or so ago. All you need to do be able to live in 0.0 and do "proper 'PVP'" is to be able to fly a frig and fit a warp disruptor. Originally by: Sola Veritas server in Iceland. The servers are in the UK. It probably takes a little longer these days as new players are back to ~50k SP at the start. But by the time they've done the tutorial arcs - which they should - they're probably quite a bit better off in terms of useful SP, ISK and ships. Heading up to 0.0 at that point should be doable.
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2009.12.13 10:17:00 - [69] No doubt it's possible to move to 0.0 promptly after your main sends you a billion ISK and inducts you into an 0.0 Corp. Just as it's possible to function as a tackler if you happen to join a suitable Corp 5 minutes after you actvate a new character. Now lets have the truth: what can a typical rookie expect? Hint: no 0.0 Corp will accept an unknown 1-day character, because they are (rightly) concerned about spies.
Dillon Arklight Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.13 11:05:00 - [70] Originally by: Serpent Kamri The key to having fun in EVE is... ...wait for it... ...playing with the right people! Couldn't agree more. Sometimes you get lucky and fall into the right corp or sometimes it can be months before you truly feel home. Co-host of PODDED Podcast http://podded.libsyn.com/
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.13 11:06:00 - [71] Originally by: Elena Laskova No doubt it's possible to move to 0.0 promptly after your main sends you a billion ISK and inducts you into an 0.0 Corp. Just as it's possible to function as a tackler if you happen to join a suitable Corp 5 minutes after you actvate a new character. Now lets have the truth: what can a typical rookie expect? Hint: no 0.0 Corp will accept an unknown 1-day character, because they are (rightly) concerned about spies. No corp should ever accept a player who has not at least subscribed. I wouldn't recommend going to 0.0 on day 1. I would recommend doing the tutorial mission arcs, which will take a while. And then it will take some time to find a corp who will accept very young players - some will, many wont. Meanwhile you can get some PvP experience in Red vs Blue. You don't need 1 billion ISK or 50 million SP to go to 0.0. 10-15 mill ISK, an ISK-making ship (salvage frigate with cloak!) and 1M SP in non-learning skills, carefully chosen, will do if you're going to a reasonably supportive corp.

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