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Why aren't gallente boats more popular for PvP?

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Linna Excel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:28:00 - [1] - Quote I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers.
Bill Serkoff2 Tachyon Technology 15	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote All of the above.
Kasutra Tailor Company IMPERIAL LEGI0N 47	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:54:00 - [3] - Quote Years of Gallente sipping the weaksauce hasn't left very many players with good Gallente skills. Will take a long while for the recent buffs to filter into the PvP population.
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Exhale. 314	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:55:00 - [4] - Quote it's because they are close range ships and most people dont have the balls to commit to a fight these days.
Alara IonStorm 2436	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:56:00 - [5] - Quote Armor Rig Penalties are a huge part of it. Thorax with even an 800mm Plate and 3 Armor Rigs is slower then a Shield Cane without Nano's. This problem gets worse when considering Gallente Armor Battlecruisers. Another thing is that Gallente Cruisers have trouble using their bigger guns because fitting anything less then a 1600mm Plate on a Cruiser is silly. Large Shield Extender II = +2625 Shield HP Meta 4 / T2 800mm Plate = +2100 Armor HP Combine that with the low resists of EANM II's compared to Invuln Field II's and it is 1600mm's all the way. A 15-30% cut in speed and a Battleship sized plate means you are flying a low DPS brick that can't tank a whole lot. So people Shield Tank their Gallente Boats which is something they are not entirely built for. Shield Thorax, Shield Brutix, Shield Talos, it doesn't need to stop but Armor should be a bit more appealing instead of second string. Want Gallente to succeed you gotta put Armor more in the ring. I'm not talkin running down and catching Cynabals in your Thorax's and Diemos's but matching speeds with Minmatar Battlecruisers a class above while being Armor fit and being able to move better between Primaries in small gang fights... absolutely. Gallente got so much better after Crucible (I <3 my Thorax.) but another push is needed and it isn't with ships but the nature of Armor Tanking. 800mm Plates and Rig adjustments are a big step.
Jame Jarl Retief Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 175	Posted - 2012.06.18 23:09:00 - [6] - Quote All of the above. Linna Excel wrote: Is it because drones can get blown up? For this part specifically, I would like to see drone boats have +20% hp boost to drones per level. Might make drones a little bit more viable, along with an across-the-board speed boost and a complete tear-down and redo of Caldari and Amarr drones. And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs.
Alara IonStorm 2437	Posted - 2012.06.18 23:17:00 - [7] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: and a complete tear-down and redo of Caldari and Amarr drones My favorite suggestion to this is to have 2 types of Drones targeting 2 different resist types. EM and Explosive are opposites so Amarr could be modeled after the successful Minmatar drones I.E fast and low damage. Just Targeting Shield Ships instead of Armor. While on the other end Gallente Drones are all about Damage at the cost of speed. Gal drones target Thermal which is a resist weaker in Shields. Giving Caldari the same stats while they target Armor with Kinetic would make a good match up. Therefor you tailor your Drone Bay to what you think you will face while players tailor their tanks to what they think they will face. Drone Boats like Missile Boats can use the extra space to carry multiple types. Then we have 2 Drones, accuracy and and damage. If it ain't broke don't fix it, if it is copy something that works.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant 38	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:11:00 - [8] - Quote Gallente ships are better than most people think, and the proteus is definitely a top pvp ship. That being said, I agree with pretty much everything posted ITT.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 502	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:20:00 - [9] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: ...redo of Caldari and Amarr drones. There is nothing wrong with Caldari drones.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 56	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:56:00 - [10] - Quote The 'most popular ship' chart is a bit misleading because of the way kills are generated. A single drake in a fleet fight might get 2% damage on forty killmails, which counts as 40 kills according to most boards. In answer to your questions. Gallente is the second fastest race in the game and is only slightly slower than minmatar. You can shield tank quite a few gallente ships and the range on neutron blasters (with null) is similar to autocannons. Yes, medium rails do suck. Yes, droneboats can be a pain to fly because your dps can be destroyed. The problem gallente has with the popular ships chart is that they don't have a dps battleship or battlecruiser for fleets.

Large Collidable Object morons. 1573	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:01:00 - [11] - Quote They'd actually do fine compared to Caldari and Amarr after an armor rig fix which is direly needed. Winmatar is the main issue though - they're still better at being blaster boats than blaster boats themselves (not really mentioning rails here because they're more Caldari flavoured anyway thanks to their grid+CPU reqs). You know... morons.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Inglorious Waffles 100	Posted - 2012.06.19 02:01:00 - [12] - Quote They're great for small gang stuff, which largely happens on gates and stations. People don't think to get out of blaster range, a lot of the time. Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwI2oVCkqk Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop.
Noisrevbus 140	Posted - 2012.06.19 03:36:00 - [13] - Quote Linna Excel wrote: I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? The top 20 is entirely dominated by whatever 'doctrine' is trending among the handfull largest alliances in the game. Gallente is unlikely to trend at those fleet-level scales due to the amount of upkeep required flying Gallente ships. Drones are one issue, some ships are drone-ships other are turret platforms with plentiful drones on the side. Not only are AoE effects such as bombs from Stealth bombers more common as scales grow, but tending to your drones also become more difficult as size scales up and TiDi enter into effect (more effects on grid, lower reaction times etc.). The other issue is that most Gallente hulls with an even slot-layout, utility slots and utility drones are better at allround or complicated roles. Large scale combat is usually about simple application and singular roles. Those extra midslots on your armor-tanked ship are not being put to use in a situation that involve sitting still and slamming F1 through F4. At smaller scales when you point, web, move around and deal damage all at once - your ship is more appealing. These issues, as most issues, have nothing to do with the base speed of the hulls, the medium sized rails or wether you are shield or armor tanked; and everything to do with how the game changes at larger scales toward simple use. If you want to involve yourself in fleet-warfare, focus on the Talos, the Recons and various tackle (HIC, Dictor etc.). If you want to fly anything from solo, pair or small to medium gangs Gallente have functional ships in most classes. Essentially, anything you do that don't involve a coalition of multiple alliances, and grids of 100's.
Aurelius Valentius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2012.06.19 04:04:00 - [14] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: it's because they are close range ships and most people dont have the balls to commit to a fight these days. I fly a hulk with 5 Hob IIs on it...MY GAWD my BEEP must be ENORMOUS!!!!...thank god for this robe!!! it's all about the Frame Rate...
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 250	Posted - 2012.06.19 04:05:00 - [15] - Quote Kasutra wrote: Years of Gallente sipping the weaksauce hasn't left very many players with good Gallente skills. Will take a long while for the recent buffs to filter into the PvP population. I think I do have those skills (main char started gallente and fully targeted BS skills directly) however whenever I pick a Brutix on my hangar and undock with, I start thinking about my 80K EHP enough dps Drake perma mwd cap stable or insta lock Cane . brb
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 145	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:11:00 - [16] - Quote I really hope they actually just fix active tanking rather than trying to lump Gallente boats into a high ehp sort of deal. The problem isn't so much that Gallente boats are slow (and close range) as it is that Gallente boats are slow when fit with plates and armor rigs, yet without plates and armor rigs Gallente boats aren't in a very good position to survive long enough to make their high DPS count. Typically, when I fly Gallente, I go for all speed and damage and just leave a very light active armor tank to rep up between fights (and help just a little bit during.) It's a sort of kamikaze tactic, though. High damage, ramming speed, no surviveability. If you ask me, this is the route CCP ought to take when balancing Gallente boats. Just make their high-speed, super-close range style have a little more surviveability (read: speed tank.) Don't try to make them into bricks. EDIT: Basically, I'd like to see them be designed around speed tanking while inside of blaster range (which also means being inside of web range.) This probably means that they won't be going fast enough to dodge all incoming fire (due to webs) while their armor reps should be enough to soak up what does manage to hit them. There'd likely need to be some changes to a lot of mechanics (webs, afterburners, sig radius/resolution, etc) in order to make this work. But the bottom line answer to your question is that Gallente were designed around a high-speed, high-damage skirmishing tactic which CCP's lack of focus on balancing over the past few years has rendered nearly obsolete. Today is the day of high ehp bricks and alpha striking artillery. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Exhale. 317	Posted - 2012.06.19 08:05:00 - [17] - Quote i should add to my comment that i fly gallente almost exclusively cos theyre actually very good ;)
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 888	Posted - 2012.06.19 08:29:00 - [18] - Quote Gallente boats aren't more popular in PvP because most EVE players are carebears, Drake blobbers or minmatards and couldn't fit a ship unless someone linked them a failfit from Battleclinic. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 36	Posted - 2012.06.19 09:53:00 - [19] - Quote Linna Excel wrote: I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? No. No / Kinda. Mostly you use short range gun systems. If it's long range guns then artillery is generally a better choice because of the alpha. Well... drones do have some downsides and that is one but it's not a deal breaker. The versatility and damage application of drones are big upsides imo. A lot of gallente boats actually are nice as shield tanks. Gank Brutix, Gank Rax etc. etc. Mostly what is comes down to is how PVP actually works. A blaster boat is a balls deep kinda proposition. You tackle somebody with hard tackle so they can't escape and apply huge DPS till they explode. At this point: You are in hard tackle range and cannot easily disengage; You are in neut range. There's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong with this approach, usually involving decloaking falcons and local spiking or them being cunningly fit to counter you. You are committed whatever happens though. In a fast kitey autocannon boat that engages from outside hard tackle range you have more options to control the engagement and are not really committed unless they start bringing recons in. Both of these approaches are fun but one of these approaches tends to lead to you exploding a lot.
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords 191	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:05:00 - [20] - Quote It's kuz they look like spoiled meat. Or weird parts of giant monsters. And well....how do i say this....man parts(but not in that good amarian way) I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship..........

Seishi Maru doMAL S.A. 24	Posted - 2012.06.19 13:07:00 - [21] - Quote Blaster boats are not slow. On some cases as in megatron vs tempest they have basically same speed. Main issue with blasters is the change on the typical combat scenario in eve. In past you havd a lot of very small engagements. with 1 or 2 ships on each side. On those scenarios the capability of overhelming the active tank of the enemy with blaster firepower was amazing. With the advancement of time engagement size increased the incomming firepower increased up to the point that any active tank became nearly worthless. Rigs increased the predominancy of buffer tanks and avoiding damage became mostly a factor of trying to keep range and keeping speed up. Typical engagement went away from ships closing on each other and sluging fire to a more compelx dance with ships trying to pursue one another or keep transversal high engugh to avoid massive damage from a fleet. This massive damage is so high that there is not enough time for blaster ships to close on a target to bear their firepower. That is why Pulse lasers and AC with barrage are king on battlefield, they can project their firepower immediately. So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was.
Lunkwill Khashour Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 130	Posted - 2012.06.19 14:08:00 - [22] - Quote Seishi Maru wrote: So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was. Mostly this. The armor slowness isn't helping aswell as even ships with as low as 4 mids will be shield tanked. Long range (including rails) is dead except for artillery and the short range of blasters, while very good, doesn't scale will to big fleets. Active (armor) tanking doesn't scale with bigger fleets aswell, combined with the fact that armor tankers have less overheating possibilities than shield tankers. It's interesting to note that the Merlin (which is a pure hybrid boat aswell) has made its entrance in the top20, while the new Incursus (with a ridiulous active tanking bonus) hasn't.
Renier Gaden Exanimo Inc Hedonistic Imperative 8	Posted - 2012.06.19 18:06:00 - [23] - Quote Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space.
strenif Caldari War Machine STR8NGE BREW 2	Posted - 2012.06.19 18:51:00 - [24] - Quote Renier Gaden wrote: Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space. This.
PinkKnife The Scope Gallente Federation 132	Posted - 2012.06.19 20:54:00 - [25] - Quote Renier Gaden wrote: Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space. It is being worked on already, CCP knows its garbage. Also, buffer tanks have steadily gotten better and better, active tanks are essentially where they still were 5 years ago.
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:05:00 - [26] - Quote Seishi Maru wrote: ... So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was. Which also lead to the conclusion, as in most threads here lately, that the best way to fix things is to introduce more corporation-level content. This game have gone completely overboard in it's big fleet perspective. I don't mind the existance of large fleet engagements, coalitions, empire building or big politics. It's one side of EVE that has always been there. However, it needs to be balanced, there need to be alternatives and they need to be able to interact with each other - not disconnect or polarize into instanced theme-parks. That's what's gone missing in EVE over the past few years (the task Dominion set out to handle, the daunting task our upcomming winter-expansion still trembles in front of). It doesn't matter if we discuss core game design, grid mechanics, corporate tools or ship balance. Most of these things were not made with current scale in mind. In order to achieve balance and mend the ecosystem all these things need to enter into a circle of life (queue cartoon lion coirs). Instead of making gallente adapt to big fleet, make sure there are tangible lasting goals that involve what Gallente are good at. The amusing thing is that it isn't a very narrow nische they are good at, they are good at what most gangs, corporations and alliances manage on their own. The only thing they're not ideal for is coalition-wide scale, and very few things are ideal for that. If you deal with that you fix not only Gallente, but everything else that is tied to scale - which by relation essentially is, everything. If there are incentives and encouragement for smaller to interact with larger and vice versa, people will begin to do things which will create more content. Spontaneous and emergent content where Gallente have a better place.
pelchan Chaotic Tranquility 2	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:31:00 - [27] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Gypsy words.. I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please...
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:38:00 - [28] - Quote pelchan wrote: Noisrevbus wrote: Gypsy words.. I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please... I'm sorry Pelchan, i assume most people here have reached the age of 13 and passed 6th grade primary- or secondary language classes. In short, like Seishi said, EVE has changed into a larger scale. The best way to fix Gallente is not to adapt them to that scale. It's to make sure all other scales have a place in the world. It's also important they do not get their own isolated place. We don't want to divide the sandbox (which is what CCP is doing). This game is a single-server MMO where everyone are meant to be able to interact with each other. That's how content is created here. Currently, not enough content is being created in EVE-online. It's evident looking at how large alliances attract more and more numbers, leaving fewer alliances in the game. While in those large alliances pilots tend to play other games and wait for something to happen these days. Going out and doing something small-scale and spontaneous have no lasting impact or tangible goals, thus isn't encouraged by the game. When that is fixed, Gallente is fixed. That's the TLDR.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 502	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:42:00 - [29] - Quote pelchan wrote: I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please... tl:dr Fewer people use Gallente for PvP because fewer people do solo/small gang PvP. If there were more reasons for solo/small gang warfare in EVE compared to fleet fights, Gallente (in their current iteration) would be used more often.
Alara IonStorm 2441	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:52:00 - [30] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: tl:dr Fewer people use Gallente for PvP because fewer people do solo/small gang PvP. If there were more reasons for solo/small gang warfare in EVE compared to fleet fights, Gallente (in their current iteration) would be used more often. Yeah but is that really true. Yes they would be used more often to a degree but it would be the Hurricane that would be used more for the most part. Probably more then the rest of Gallente combined. Noisrevbus wrote: I'm sorry Pelchan, i assume most people here have reached the age of 13 and passed 6th grade primary- or secondary language classes. In short, like Seishi said, EVE has changed into a larger scale. The best way to fix Gallente is not to adapt them to that scale. It's to make sure all other scales have a place in the world. It's also important they do not get their own isolated place. We don't want to divide the sandbox (which is what CCP is doing). This game is a single-server MMO where everyone are meant to be able to interact with each other. That's how content is created here. Currently, not enough content is being created in EVE-online. It's evident looking at how more players gravitate toward larger alliances, leaving fewer alliances in the game. While in those large alliances pilots tend to play other games and wait for something to happen these days. Going out and doing something small-scale and spontaneous have no lasting impact or tangible goals, thus isn't encouraged by the game. When that is fixed, Gallente is fixed. That's the TLDR. Noisrevbus master of the 3 Paragraph TLDR.



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