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Why aren't gallente boats more popular for PvP?

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Linna Excel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:28:00 - [1] - Quote I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers.
Bill Serkoff2 Tachyon Technology 15	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote All of the above.
Kasutra Tailor Company IMPERIAL LEGI0N 47	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:54:00 - [3] - Quote Years of Gallente sipping the weaksauce hasn't left very many players with good Gallente skills. Will take a long while for the recent buffs to filter into the PvP population.
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Exhale. 314	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:55:00 - [4] - Quote it's because they are close range ships and most people dont have the balls to commit to a fight these days.
Alara IonStorm 2436	Posted - 2012.06.18 22:56:00 - [5] - Quote Armor Rig Penalties are a huge part of it. Thorax with even an 800mm Plate and 3 Armor Rigs is slower then a Shield Cane without Nano's. This problem gets worse when considering Gallente Armor Battlecruisers. Another thing is that Gallente Cruisers have trouble using their bigger guns because fitting anything less then a 1600mm Plate on a Cruiser is silly. Large Shield Extender II = +2625 Shield HP Meta 4 / T2 800mm Plate = +2100 Armor HP Combine that with the low resists of EANM II's compared to Invuln Field II's and it is 1600mm's all the way. A 15-30% cut in speed and a Battleship sized plate means you are flying a low DPS brick that can't tank a whole lot. So people Shield Tank their Gallente Boats which is something they are not entirely built for. Shield Thorax, Shield Brutix, Shield Talos, it doesn't need to stop but Armor should be a bit more appealing instead of second string. Want Gallente to succeed you gotta put Armor more in the ring. I'm not talkin running down and catching Cynabals in your Thorax's and Diemos's but matching speeds with Minmatar Battlecruisers a class above while being Armor fit and being able to move better between Primaries in small gang fights... absolutely. Gallente got so much better after Crucible (I <3 my Thorax.) but another push is needed and it isn't with ships but the nature of Armor Tanking. 800mm Plates and Rig adjustments are a big step.
Jame Jarl Retief Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 175	Posted - 2012.06.18 23:09:00 - [6] - Quote All of the above. Linna Excel wrote: Is it because drones can get blown up? For this part specifically, I would like to see drone boats have +20% hp boost to drones per level. Might make drones a little bit more viable, along with an across-the-board speed boost and a complete tear-down and redo of Caldari and Amarr drones. And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs.
Alara IonStorm 2437	Posted - 2012.06.18 23:17:00 - [7] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: and a complete tear-down and redo of Caldari and Amarr drones My favorite suggestion to this is to have 2 types of Drones targeting 2 different resist types. EM and Explosive are opposites so Amarr could be modeled after the successful Minmatar drones I.E fast and low damage. Just Targeting Shield Ships instead of Armor. While on the other end Gallente Drones are all about Damage at the cost of speed. Gal drones target Thermal which is a resist weaker in Shields. Giving Caldari the same stats while they target Armor with Kinetic would make a good match up. Therefor you tailor your Drone Bay to what you think you will face while players tailor their tanks to what they think they will face. Drone Boats like Missile Boats can use the extra space to carry multiple types. Then we have 2 Drones, accuracy and and damage. If it ain't broke don't fix it, if it is copy something that works.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant 38	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:11:00 - [8] - Quote Gallente ships are better than most people think, and the proteus is definitely a top pvp ship. That being said, I agree with pretty much everything posted ITT.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 502	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:20:00 - [9] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: ...redo of Caldari and Amarr drones. There is nothing wrong with Caldari drones.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 56	Posted - 2012.06.19 00:56:00 - [10] - Quote The 'most popular ship' chart is a bit misleading because of the way kills are generated. A single drake in a fleet fight might get 2% damage on forty killmails, which counts as 40 kills according to most boards. In answer to your questions. Gallente is the second fastest race in the game and is only slightly slower than minmatar. You can shield tank quite a few gallente ships and the range on neutron blasters (with null) is similar to autocannons. Yes, medium rails do suck. Yes, droneboats can be a pain to fly because your dps can be destroyed. The problem gallente has with the popular ships chart is that they don't have a dps battleship or battlecruiser for fleets.

Large Collidable Object morons. 1573	Posted - 2012.06.19 01:01:00 - [11] - Quote They'd actually do fine compared to Caldari and Amarr after an armor rig fix which is direly needed. Winmatar is the main issue though - they're still better at being blaster boats than blaster boats themselves (not really mentioning rails here because they're more Caldari flavoured anyway thanks to their grid+CPU reqs). You know... morons.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Inglorious Waffles 100	Posted - 2012.06.19 02:01:00 - [12] - Quote They're great for small gang stuff, which largely happens on gates and stations. People don't think to get out of blaster range, a lot of the time. Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwI2oVCkqk Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop.
Noisrevbus 140	Posted - 2012.06.19 03:36:00 - [13] - Quote Linna Excel wrote: I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? The top 20 is entirely dominated by whatever 'doctrine' is trending among the handfull largest alliances in the game. Gallente is unlikely to trend at those fleet-level scales due to the amount of upkeep required flying Gallente ships. Drones are one issue, some ships are drone-ships other are turret platforms with plentiful drones on the side. Not only are AoE effects such as bombs from Stealth bombers more common as scales grow, but tending to your drones also become more difficult as size scales up and TiDi enter into effect (more effects on grid, lower reaction times etc.). The other issue is that most Gallente hulls with an even slot-layout, utility slots and utility drones are better at allround or complicated roles. Large scale combat is usually about simple application and singular roles. Those extra midslots on your armor-tanked ship are not being put to use in a situation that involve sitting still and slamming F1 through F4. At smaller scales when you point, web, move around and deal damage all at once - your ship is more appealing. These issues, as most issues, have nothing to do with the base speed of the hulls, the medium sized rails or wether you are shield or armor tanked; and everything to do with how the game changes at larger scales toward simple use. If you want to involve yourself in fleet-warfare, focus on the Talos, the Recons and various tackle (HIC, Dictor etc.). If you want to fly anything from solo, pair or small to medium gangs Gallente have functional ships in most classes. Essentially, anything you do that don't involve a coalition of multiple alliances, and grids of 100's.
Aurelius Valentius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 136	Posted - 2012.06.19 04:04:00 - [14] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: it's because they are close range ships and most people dont have the balls to commit to a fight these days. I fly a hulk with 5 Hob IIs on it...MY GAWD my BEEP must be ENORMOUS!!!!...thank god for this robe!!! it's all about the Frame Rate...
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 250	Posted - 2012.06.19 04:05:00 - [15] - Quote Kasutra wrote: Years of Gallente sipping the weaksauce hasn't left very many players with good Gallente skills. Will take a long while for the recent buffs to filter into the PvP population. I think I do have those skills (main char started gallente and fully targeted BS skills directly) however whenever I pick a Brutix on my hangar and undock with, I start thinking about my 80K EHP enough dps Drake perma mwd cap stable or insta lock Cane . brb
Mechael Ouroboros Executor Collective 145	Posted - 2012.06.19 06:11:00 - [16] - Quote I really hope they actually just fix active tanking rather than trying to lump Gallente boats into a high ehp sort of deal. The problem isn't so much that Gallente boats are slow (and close range) as it is that Gallente boats are slow when fit with plates and armor rigs, yet without plates and armor rigs Gallente boats aren't in a very good position to survive long enough to make their high DPS count. Typically, when I fly Gallente, I go for all speed and damage and just leave a very light active armor tank to rep up between fights (and help just a little bit during.) It's a sort of kamikaze tactic, though. High damage, ramming speed, no surviveability. If you ask me, this is the route CCP ought to take when balancing Gallente boats. Just make their high-speed, super-close range style have a little more surviveability (read: speed tank.) Don't try to make them into bricks. EDIT: Basically, I'd like to see them be designed around speed tanking while inside of blaster range (which also means being inside of web range.) This probably means that they won't be going fast enough to dodge all incoming fire (due to webs) while their armor reps should be enough to soak up what does manage to hit them. There'd likely need to be some changes to a lot of mechanics (webs, afterburners, sig radius/resolution, etc) in order to make this work. But the bottom line answer to your question is that Gallente were designed around a high-speed, high-damage skirmishing tactic which CCP's lack of focus on balancing over the past few years has rendered nearly obsolete. Today is the day of high ehp bricks and alpha striking artillery. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it.
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Exhale. 317	Posted - 2012.06.19 08:05:00 - [17] - Quote i should add to my comment that i fly gallente almost exclusively cos theyre actually very good ;)
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 888	Posted - 2012.06.19 08:29:00 - [18] - Quote Gallente boats aren't more popular in PvP because most EVE players are carebears, Drake blobbers or minmatards and couldn't fit a ship unless someone linked them a failfit from Battleclinic. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 36	Posted - 2012.06.19 09:53:00 - [19] - Quote Linna Excel wrote: I've read that the gallente have no ships in the top 20 for pvp but whenever someone brings it up, they fail to mention why. Is it because blaster boats are too slow? Is it because medium rails suck? Is it because drones can get blown up? Is it because they aren't shield tanked? No. No / Kinda. Mostly you use short range gun systems. If it's long range guns then artillery is generally a better choice because of the alpha. Well... drones do have some downsides and that is one but it's not a deal breaker. The versatility and damage application of drones are big upsides imo. A lot of gallente boats actually are nice as shield tanks. Gank Brutix, Gank Rax etc. etc. Mostly what is comes down to is how PVP actually works. A blaster boat is a balls deep kinda proposition. You tackle somebody with hard tackle so they can't escape and apply huge DPS till they explode. At this point: You are in hard tackle range and cannot easily disengage; You are in neut range. There's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong with this approach, usually involving decloaking falcons and local spiking or them being cunningly fit to counter you. You are committed whatever happens though. In a fast kitey autocannon boat that engages from outside hard tackle range you have more options to control the engagement and are not really committed unless they start bringing recons in. Both of these approaches are fun but one of these approaches tends to lead to you exploding a lot.
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords 191	Posted - 2012.06.19 11:05:00 - [20] - Quote It's kuz they look like spoiled meat. Or weird parts of giant monsters. And well....how do i say this....man parts(but not in that good amarian way) I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship..........

Seishi Maru doMAL S.A. 24	Posted - 2012.06.19 13:07:00 - [21] - Quote Blaster boats are not slow. On some cases as in megatron vs tempest they have basically same speed. Main issue with blasters is the change on the typical combat scenario in eve. In past you havd a lot of very small engagements. with 1 or 2 ships on each side. On those scenarios the capability of overhelming the active tank of the enemy with blaster firepower was amazing. With the advancement of time engagement size increased the incomming firepower increased up to the point that any active tank became nearly worthless. Rigs increased the predominancy of buffer tanks and avoiding damage became mostly a factor of trying to keep range and keeping speed up. Typical engagement went away from ships closing on each other and sluging fire to a more compelx dance with ships trying to pursue one another or keep transversal high engugh to avoid massive damage from a fleet. This massive damage is so high that there is not enough time for blaster ships to close on a target to bear their firepower. That is why Pulse lasers and AC with barrage are king on battlefield, they can project their firepower immediately. So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was.
Lunkwill Khashour Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 130	Posted - 2012.06.19 14:08:00 - [22] - Quote Seishi Maru wrote: So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was. Mostly this. The armor slowness isn't helping aswell as even ships with as low as 4 mids will be shield tanked. Long range (including rails) is dead except for artillery and the short range of blasters, while very good, doesn't scale will to big fleets. Active (armor) tanking doesn't scale with bigger fleets aswell, combined with the fact that armor tankers have less overheating possibilities than shield tankers. It's interesting to note that the Merlin (which is a pure hybrid boat aswell) has made its entrance in the top20, while the new Incursus (with a ridiulous active tanking bonus) hasn't.
Renier Gaden Exanimo Inc Hedonistic Imperative 8	Posted - 2012.06.19 18:06:00 - [23] - Quote Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space.
strenif Caldari War Machine STR8NGE BREW 2	Posted - 2012.06.19 18:51:00 - [24] - Quote Renier Gaden wrote: Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space. This.
PinkKnife The Scope Gallente Federation 132	Posted - 2012.06.19 20:54:00 - [25] - Quote Renier Gaden wrote: Quote: And of course the drone control UI needs to be thrown out into the garbage where it belongs. More of a comment on drone usage in general, but this guy is so right. The Drone interface could do with some serious improvement. Just getting my drones into space can require 3 or 4 clicks, and it takes up more screen space than is needed. I envision two rows of buttons. The top row of buttons represent preset groups of drones. You click the button and that group launches into space. The bottom row of buttons are for engage target, defend target, return to orbit, return to drone bay. (Am I missing any?) Below those two rows of buttons you could have a row of Shield/Armour/Structure readouts. (Stack the three bars, or make them round, so they take up the same space as the little buttons.) This would give you an easier drone interface, consisting of three rows of small buttons/icons that would require less clicking (no sub menus while in combat) and would take up far less screen space. It is being worked on already, CCP knows its garbage. Also, buffer tanks have steadily gotten better and better, active tanks are essentially where they still were 5 years ago.
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:05:00 - [26] - Quote Seishi Maru wrote: ... So its not that gallente ships sux, its that EVE evolved in a direction where close range massive firepower is not as useful as once was. Which also lead to the conclusion, as in most threads here lately, that the best way to fix things is to introduce more corporation-level content. This game have gone completely overboard in it's big fleet perspective. I don't mind the existance of large fleet engagements, coalitions, empire building or big politics. It's one side of EVE that has always been there. However, it needs to be balanced, there need to be alternatives and they need to be able to interact with each other - not disconnect or polarize into instanced theme-parks. That's what's gone missing in EVE over the past few years (the task Dominion set out to handle, the daunting task our upcomming winter-expansion still trembles in front of). It doesn't matter if we discuss core game design, grid mechanics, corporate tools or ship balance. Most of these things were not made with current scale in mind. In order to achieve balance and mend the ecosystem all these things need to enter into a circle of life (queue cartoon lion coirs). Instead of making gallente adapt to big fleet, make sure there are tangible lasting goals that involve what Gallente are good at. The amusing thing is that it isn't a very narrow nische they are good at, they are good at what most gangs, corporations and alliances manage on their own. The only thing they're not ideal for is coalition-wide scale, and very few things are ideal for that. If you deal with that you fix not only Gallente, but everything else that is tied to scale - which by relation essentially is, everything. If there are incentives and encouragement for smaller to interact with larger and vice versa, people will begin to do things which will create more content. Spontaneous and emergent content where Gallente have a better place.
pelchan Chaotic Tranquility 2	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:31:00 - [27] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Gypsy words.. I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please...
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:38:00 - [28] - Quote pelchan wrote: Noisrevbus wrote: Gypsy words.. I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please... I'm sorry Pelchan, i assume most people here have reached the age of 13 and passed 6th grade primary- or secondary language classes. In short, like Seishi said, EVE has changed into a larger scale. The best way to fix Gallente is not to adapt them to that scale. It's to make sure all other scales have a place in the world. It's also important they do not get their own isolated place. We don't want to divide the sandbox (which is what CCP is doing). This game is a single-server MMO where everyone are meant to be able to interact with each other. That's how content is created here. Currently, not enough content is being created in EVE-online. It's evident looking at how large alliances attract more and more numbers, leaving fewer alliances in the game. While in those large alliances pilots tend to play other games and wait for something to happen these days. Going out and doing something small-scale and spontaneous have no lasting impact or tangible goals, thus isn't encouraged by the game. When that is fixed, Gallente is fixed. That's the TLDR.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 502	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:42:00 - [29] - Quote pelchan wrote: I never understand a damn thing you write. I don't even bother reading your post because of your strange gypsy language. Keep it short and english please... tl:dr Fewer people use Gallente for PvP because fewer people do solo/small gang PvP. If there were more reasons for solo/small gang warfare in EVE compared to fleet fights, Gallente (in their current iteration) would be used more often.
Alara IonStorm 2441	Posted - 2012.06.20 01:52:00 - [30] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: tl:dr Fewer people use Gallente for PvP because fewer people do solo/small gang PvP. If there were more reasons for solo/small gang warfare in EVE compared to fleet fights, Gallente (in their current iteration) would be used more often. Yeah but is that really true. Yes they would be used more often to a degree but it would be the Hurricane that would be used more for the most part. Probably more then the rest of Gallente combined. Noisrevbus wrote: I'm sorry Pelchan, i assume most people here have reached the age of 13 and passed 6th grade primary- or secondary language classes. In short, like Seishi said, EVE has changed into a larger scale. The best way to fix Gallente is not to adapt them to that scale. It's to make sure all other scales have a place in the world. It's also important they do not get their own isolated place. We don't want to divide the sandbox (which is what CCP is doing). This game is a single-server MMO where everyone are meant to be able to interact with each other. That's how content is created here. Currently, not enough content is being created in EVE-online. It's evident looking at how more players gravitate toward larger alliances, leaving fewer alliances in the game. While in those large alliances pilots tend to play other games and wait for something to happen these days. Going out and doing something small-scale and spontaneous have no lasting impact or tangible goals, thus isn't encouraged by the game. When that is fixed, Gallente is fixed. That's the TLDR. Noisrevbus master of the 3 Paragraph TLDR.

Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 502	Posted - 2012.06.20 02:01:00 - [31] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Yes they would be used more often to a degree but it would be the Hurricane that would be used more for the most part. Probably more then the rest of Gallente combined. They are easily countered by Gallente especially since solo or small gang, Talos > Cane.
Alara IonStorm 2441	Posted - 2012.06.20 02:08:00 - [32] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: They are easily countered by Gallente especially since solo or small gang, Talos > Cane. Could not be a better example of what I am talking about bringing up the best Gallente small gang ship currently. The Taloscane. That is what it is, a slightly less accurate Shield Hurricane with a bigger focus on DPS over tank. Not many people are flying them Armor. Its Hurricane like speed and Null range mock every other Gallente ship that can not pull a Talos. In fact I was going to mention that there would be a slight increase of Talos use along with the Cane hampered by the 120mil fully fit out price tag and player nervousness over glass ships but an increase non the less of the Minmatar Talos. The issue isn't the Talos, the issue is that all other Gallente Ships can't and should not be Taloscanes. I want the Talos to be as good as it is now with an Armor tank so it can actually be a Talos and not well you know... A Taloscane.
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 02:44:00 - [33] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Noisrevbus master of the 3 Paragraph TLDR It's down from six, gimme a break . It was shorter to begin with, but after Mfume's reply i wanted to rule out some confusion. Alara IonStorm wrote: Mfume Apocal wrote: tl:dr Fewer people use Gallente for PvP because fewer people do solo/small gang PvP. If there were more reasons for solo/small gang warfare in EVE compared to fleet fights, Gallente (in their current iteration) would be used more often. Yeah but is that really true. Yes they would be used more often to a degree but it would be the Hurricane that would be used more for the most part. Probably more then the rest of Gallente combined. See, one of my main arguments was that i don't see Gallente as limited to solo/small. It's a fair simplification, but it comes with the risk of misunderstanding. Gallente are not only single/small, isolated to lowsec. That's a picture easy for people to pick up. I see 25-man gangs or 50-man gangs as something entirely different. I see those numbers as something most corporations, and even alliances, in EVE have a problem fielding on their own accord. That difference is very important. To me, that's norm - while coalition is excess. In currently trending perspectives both among playerbase and developers, much larger gangs are becomming the norm. CCP Soundwave is going to have ever repeating issues trying to remake the entire game to fit that perspective. He will repetively hit and upset balance-mines. More gypsy drivel... The second argument is interaction. Wormholes are not interactive. FW is not interactive. Incursions are not interactive. The empire wardec merc-market focus is not interactive. Interacting with them from the outside is discouraged. It's scripted and targeted content. The list goes on. They are theme parks. The very thing CCP buzz claim to be against. The buzzwords this game was built around are: sandbox, emergence and single-server. They still spit them out, but in reality most of what they do is the complete opposite. They should spend effort fixing the core sandbox, not creating more advertised rides. I think mercing, as Noir do it, is an awesome ride. It's still a ride. Noir would benefit far more from having their "asset denial operations" truely effectful. Then their services would be more coveted. They and everyone else would benefit so much more from that than they would a hollow merc marketplace, that's taken a full development cycle to introduce. If CCP Unifex truely did live in Syndicate he would know that those once roaming entities now mostly just sit around and poke at each other. They, as much as Noir, would benefit a whole lot more from seeing up-down scale interaction fixed. The merc marketplace have essentially no value to them, though amusingly those corporations have a history of Gallente love. From The Church to Cry Havoc, Rote Kapelle and Agony Unleashed in their respective era; they have all provided examples of making Gallente powerful in more ways than just solo BS blasting lowsec undocks. Gallente are appearantly quite good at denying assets .
Alara IonStorm 2441	Posted - 2012.06.20 02:59:00 - [34] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Noir would benefit far more from having their "asset denial operations" truely effectful This is where you lost me. What is or has been making it ineffective and what do you think will fix it? Noisrevbus wrote: If CCP Unifex truely did live in Syndicate he would know that those once roaming entities now mostly just sit around and poke at each other. They, as much as Noir, would benefit a whole lot more from seeing up-down scale interaction fixed What has caused them to slow there roam and what do you mean up-down scale interaction?
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 03:27:00 - [35] - Quote As for the Taloscane, the issue is that it's a Tier 3 BC - putting all other ships to shame. Nothing else. If you look at all other Gallente ships the balance between shield and armor is actually quite good. Shield fits provide adaptive and niched options (extreme damage, high speeds; yet flimsy) while armor is generally better in a racially proned situation (ie., when you fly setups or gangs that specificly draw on the racial advantages). The Thorax as well as the Deimos is swift and ganky in shields. Not a Taloscane, but definately a chip off the Minmatar block with it's own quirks. In an armor setup, wether it's active or plated, they can really shine though; once you've aquired the taste and realized that being slowed down is not the same as being slow, and when you stand to draw on all available slots. Effective use of webs for example, is something very undervalued in the game atm., while at the same time blapping is considered overpowered. Quite the paradox. The Deimos is considered worthless and the Tengu is considered overpowered, yet there are few ships better equipped for killing Tengus than Deimoses. Another paradox. It has the tank, the resist profile, the mids to tackle and-or dualprop, breakthrough damage, utility drones and can hurt a sensitive cap. What arguments does it face? The only thing you see repeated is comments about how it "Dies most" despite having an equal or better tank to many other HACs (and a resist profile that make "overpowered" HML cry). "It's slow" even though you can break 3km/s with it 1600 plated, and run your cap down low. "It's tank denies damage mods" even though it breaks general 400-500 dps averages and have drones to apply at discretion on the side. Most Gallente ships have that balance between armor and shield. Ishtar and Domi, both competent in shields, active armor and plated. Though i agree Alara, it's a shame that the Talos break that racial trait. It's just that it's a class that supercedes race. Those BC are much more alike each other than they are their respective race. It's the same as Stealth bombers, Interdictors and other specialist ships. Ships that fit into the common singular large fleet role. They were afterall made to overtake SHAC, in a fit of thinking SHAC grew out of popularity because they were ineffective. While in reality, they grew out of popularity because they were cost-ineffective. You could halve their damage output and they would still be used. Doing that would maybe create some leeway to arrange the slots in some other way. It would also recreate a reasonable balance to SHAC - letting you pay twice the price for better sensors and potential tracking. On the other hand, i'd be equally happy to see that tier/class removed .
Noisrevbus 142	Posted - 2012.06.20 03:46:00 - [36] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: This is where you lost me. What is or has been making it ineffective and what do you think will fix it? What has caused them to slow there roam and what do you mean up-down scale interaction? As everything else, it's all related. up-down scale interaction simply means "smaller and larger groups, gangs or shiptypes etc. interacting". Today they don't interact very much because there are no tangible goals or reasons to interact. I use the collective term 'scale' because it's not just "blame Goons and their politics", as some people tend to croak. Some of this has been aknowledged. The CSM had their "farms and fields" discussions which is essentially one side of the larger discussion revolving around hitpoint-based infrastructure (and multiple-day timers). There need to be alternatives to those, that appeal to smaller groups, smaller gangs, smaller shiptypes etc. Another example is the "ring mining" idea. Made to put player action in space back on the map. When you do that you simultanously put player inter-action back on the map (interacting a Mackinaw is obviously better balanced between scales than a moon-tower; both in terms of shooting it, capitalizing from that, affording it or using it). Besides Moros and Nyx, Gallente also have much more appealing options interacting with a Mackinaw than a tower. It's different for other races as the common fleet comps of today still interact quite well with towers. It's quite akin to a large fleet grid. It's just as easy bombing a mass of drones off a stationary structure as it is on a clumped static grid. It's a sluggish Gallente-example, but it's on topic nontheless. Both of them good ideas, and i know they are said to be slated for upcomming release. I'm just continously toting that horn to point out how it relates to "Ships and modules", and because i'm sceptical. It's long overdue, it's been talked about for ages. Like Seleene has said on numerous occasions: "There were so many things in Dominion that was postponed, to the point that what was rolled out wasn't really Dominion anymore" (loosely cited). I'm also sceptical because they keep pushing back things, they keep introducing peripheral things and they keep discussing other, contradicting, changes (such as ship rebalancing, that will be completely superfluous and possibly even imbalancing if they fix 'scales'). That's how that discussion relates to this forum - because ship balancing is still being done without attention to 'scales'. That's why i keep defending the Drake because they are trying to slay the image of the 'Drake' (the Drake-blob) without any good ideas for the actual ship and they risk just enforcing that image. Thus reinforcing the problem of the Drake-blob. If there are alternative ways for large and small to interact and grief each other you will see groups of players interacting both up and down, both undermanned and overmanned. We need that, because it will make us less hesitent to interact, more entities will likely pop up and contribute to what will become more (player-) action.
Dethis Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.06.20 07:50:00 - [37] - Quote So (I just re subbed after 3 years) essentially I should start retraining minmitar for PvP? I am fully invested in blasters and drones from back then. 18m SP with 4m in drones 5m in SC and 4.5 in gunnery all towards gallente stuff with a little minmitar stuff
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 896	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:05:00 - [38] - Quote Dethis wrote: So (I just re subbed after 3 years) essentially I should start retraining minmitar for PvP? I am fully invested in blasters and drones from back then. 18m SP with 4m in drones 5m in SC and 4.5 in gunnery all towards gallente stuff with a little minmitar stuff Why should you? Gallente is just as great as any race. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Alara IonStorm 2443	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:17:00 - [39] - Quote Dethis wrote: So (I just re subbed after 3 years) essentially I should start retraining minmitar for PvP? I am fully invested in blasters and drones from back then. 18m SP with 4m in drones 5m in SC and 4.5 in gunnery all towards gallente stuff with a little minmitar stuff That really depends on what scale of Warfare you are in. Sometimes bare bones diversity is enough in a lot of ways. If you are looking to widen the scope of what you can do in the game it takes less time and skill points then you think once you have the core skills. I went Hurricane early on and it was the best SP I ever spent followed quickly by the Drake then all the core skills to go with them. When Crucible hit it took me a month to get Medium Blasters and another month to get large because I had the skill backing it. By the sounds of it in 2 Months you could have the Cane and Drake with all the skills necessary which opens a lot of doors without diversifying to far from your goal. I find Gallente useful for a lot of the small stuff, Shield or Active Brutix is an okay ship for most small gangs same with the Thorax. Myrmidon is niche but powerful, I have faced some pretty deadly Myrmidon pilots. When jumping into a hostile small gate camp a Megathron or Neut Dominix are the ships to fear. Talos's are pretty deadly when flown correctly in the right circumstances, I just finished the skill for mine a week ago. (Been dragging my heals on large blasters for Pulse Lasers) The Gallente Frigate lineup is plain out deadly as well. The current scope of Gallente warfare is small. If you are looking for a fleet boat Drakes are the fastest way since 90% of fleet doctrine uses them and Alpha Maels with Minmatar BS 3-4 and Large Arty 3-4 are a quick side train. Naga you pretty much get for free at Cal Cruiser 3 with your Hybrid Skill. But that is fleet stuff. In the right environment Gallente will serve you well but cross training the basics is easy at this stage. So it depends on what you want to do. I would highly recommend Drake and Cane though for the time involved.
Dethis Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:30:00 - [40] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Dethis wrote: So (I just re subbed after 3 years) essentially I should start retraining minmitar for PvP? I am fully invested in blasters and drones from back then. 18m SP with 4m in drones 5m in SC and 4.5 in gunnery all towards gallente stuff with a little minmitar stuff That really depends on what scale of Warfare you are in. Sometimes bare bones diversity is enough in a lot of ways. If you are looking to widen the scope of what you can do in the game it takes less time and skill points then you think once you have the core skills. I went Hurricane early on and it was the best SP I ever spent followed quickly by the Drake then all the core skills to go with them. When Crucible hit it took me a month to get Medium Blasters and another month to get large because I had the skill backing it. By the sounds of it in 2 Months you could have the Cane and Drake with all the skills necessary which opens a lot of doors without diversifying to far from your goal. I find Gallente useful for a lot of the small stuff, Shield or Active Brutix is an okay ship for most small gangs same with the Thorax. Myrmidon is niche but powerful, I have faced some pretty deadly Myrmidon pilots. When jumping into a hostile small gate camp a Megathron or Neut Dominix are the ships to fear. Talos's are pretty deadly when flown correctly in the right circumstances, I just finished the skill for mine a week ago. (Been dragging my heals on large blasters for Pulse Lasers) The Gallente Frigate lineup is plain out deadly as well. The current scope of Gallente warfare is small. If you are looking for a fleet boat Drakes are the fastest way since 90% of fleet doctrine uses them and Alpha Maels with Minmatar BS 3-4 and Large Arty 3-4 are a quick side train. Naga you pretty much get for free at Cal Cruiser 3 with your Hybrid Skill. But that is fleet stuff. In the right environment Gallente will serve you well but cross training the basics is easy at this stage. So it depends on what you want to do. I would highly recommend Drake and Cane though for the time involved. I have no real interest in blobby fleet stuff just roaming gangs and smaller engagements. I prefer cruiser class sized ships and interceptors. Time to start cross training minimitar anyway so I have something if I stumble my way into a big corp at some point, still getting my feet wet.

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4088	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:44:00 - [41] - Quote Dethis wrote: So (I just re subbed after 3 years) essentially I should start retraining minmitar for PvP? I am fully invested in blasters and drones from back then. 18m SP with 4m in drones 5m in SC and 4.5 in gunnery all towards gallente stuff with a little minmitar stuff Versatility is always in style. Adding Minmatar skills to your repetoire will also open up the Serpentis and Angel ships to you, which is well worthwhile. Gallente and Minmatar have a very good cross-train synergy IMO. Incidentally, if you already have large hybrids trained up, then it wouldn't be a bad idea to quickly train Caldari Cruiser 3 before you start on Minmatar, to get access to the Naga as well. If you like small ships then take note that the Hybrid AFs (specifically including the Harpy) are pretty awesome right now as well. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Alara IonStorm 2443	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:44:00 - [42] - Quote Dethis wrote: I have no real interest in blobby fleet stuff just roaming gangs and smaller engagements. I prefer cruiser class sized ships and interceptors. Gallente should serve you well then. If I were you I would consider getting medium Autocannons for the Hurricane and Rupture. Getting them also gets you the Rifter, Cyclone and Thrasher as well. Also the new Slasher designs are not looking bad. A months training to pull several good fast ships that are very fun. There isn't really a rush since small and mixed gangs are a good home for Gallente Ships now days. A lot of people tend to pull out their Radar Guns to measure speed but in most cases it isn't as big a factor as people think. There are those rare times when you do get kited but in a gang with tackle even Drones / Range it is rarer that it out and out kills you. Overheat MWD burn in melt face. There Agility is also a bit better as well helping to get out of tough spots. Crucible did a lot of good for Gallente.
Bouh Revetoile The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva 25	Posted - 2012.06.20 08:59:00 - [43] - Quote For small gang, gallente are very effective and versatile. If you like frigates, gallente ones are almighty and deadly. For super large fleet, they have the Lachesis/Arazu/Proteus which are very wanted by every FC for long range tackle. No need for minmatar flying garbages.
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 896	Posted - 2012.06.20 09:18:00 - [44] - Quote Dethis wrote: I have no real interest in blobby fleet stuff just roaming gangs and smaller engagements. I prefer cruiser class sized ships and interceptors. Time to start cross training minimitar anyway so I have something if I stumble my way into a big corp at some point, still getting my feet wet. Quote: Why should you? Gallente is just as great as any race. So I can breath a sigh of relief? I can still fly my blaster/drone boats? Yes you can :) I don't fly anything else, small gang warfare in wormholes and low. The effect of race is minimal compared to your own (and gangs) combat skills and tactical excellence, choose your engagements so they favor your ship/gang comp and you can succeed with any ship. That said, Gallente today has several ships that rank very highly, starting with frigates (AFs and ceptors included) to the deadly cloaky Proteus and the almost-OP Talos. I regard Talos as a game changer for Gallente, it offers a very powerful option for nano-gangs, something we didn't have before. It's faster and lays a lot more hurt at superior range to a nano-Cane, for example. T1 cruisers are not common in w-space, but post-Crucible Vexor compares very favorably to a Rupture, and Thorax is a classic. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Songbird 57	Posted - 2012.06.20 09:39:00 - [45] - Quote Have you seen the scene in Indiana Jones where a local swings wildly his sword showing off and looking really dangerous, u canlok at it on youtube. Gal are a lot like that swordsman
Rashmika Clavain Revelation Space 8	Posted - 2012.06.20 09:54:00 - [46] - Quote Songbird wrote: Have you seen the scene in Indiana Jones where a local swings wildly his sword showing off and looking really dangerous, you can see it at youtube. Gal are a lot like that swordsman Failtfit to be honest. He should've had some propulsions mods fit, mebbe a T1 Horse.
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 896	Posted - 2012.06.20 09:57:00 - [47] - Quote Songbird wrote: Have you seen the scene in Indiana Jones where a local swings wildly his sword showing off and looking really dangerous, you can see it at youtube. Gal are a lot like that swordsman That's the Minmatar fantasy. On Tranquility, however, the situation is more like a riot. Gallente, the riot police advancing relentlessly while Minmatar hippies pitifully plink them with little stones. In the end the hippies either run away, or get beaten to a bloody pulp. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman
Songbird 57	Posted - 2012.06.20 10:20:00 - [48] - Quote Rashmika Clavain wrote: Songbird wrote: Have you seen the scene in Indiana Jones where a local swings wildly his sword showing off and looking really dangerous, you can see it at youtube. Gal are a lot like that swordsman Failtfit to be honest. He should've had some propulsions mods fit, mebbe a T1 Horse. Tbh cavalry has been redundant since they improved the guns
shortattenionsp Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.06.20 12:28:00 - [49] - Quote Imo they are (a bit) underused because most Gal ships are armour tankers and with this + short ranged weapons they are forced to commit to fights rather than kite / skirt around a fight with the option of breaking off. With other races I can stay aligned or out of scram range meaning I can GTFO if I think things are going against me or more people turn up etc. With Gallente you are chargeing into scram/web range and praying nothing else turns up. Blaster DPS and Gal ship EHP really isn't hugely higher than other races frankly. Unless you can get within scram range really fast it's often not enough to kill your opponent before you pop if you've taken damage on the way in. Shield tanking is a bit better for most situations imo. Shield ships ends up faster and with higher DPS and range. Less tackle but you don't need it as badly because you're faster and can keep up with more things and have range so you don't have to stay really close to your target.
Roime Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance 899	Posted - 2012.06.20 12:39:00 - [50] - Quote shortattenionsp wrote: Talos is awesome and if you want to have speed, dps and range, you should fly Gallente. FYP For other Gal ships, toss the opponent with ECM drones and warp away. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman

shortattenionsp Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.06.20 15:24:00 - [51] - Quote Roime wrote: shortattenionsp wrote: Talos is awesome and if you want to have speed, dps and range, you should fly Gallente. FYP For other Gal ships, toss the opponent with ECM drones and warp away. Yup the Talos is awesome. Dishonour drones work well enough but I hate using them frankly as I hate it when other people use them!
Metal Icarus xHELLonEARTHx LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 217	Posted - 2012.06.20 15:40:00 - [52] - Quote If medium rails didnt suck so hard, they would be way better at being aHACs.
Lunkwill Khashour Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 131	Posted - 2012.06.20 18:53:00 - [53] - Quote Sentry Ishtar can do the aHAC thing aswell but you need a fleet of people organized and skilled/sp'ed enough for sentry drones.
Linna Excel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2012.06.20 23:26:00 - [54] - Quote Thank you for your responses guys. So it seems that the main problems summed up are: 1. They are fine solo and in small gangs, so in a number of cases there are no glaring problems. 2. Rig penalties hurt them, aside from that their speed is fine 3a. Blasters don't have good damage projection in large gangs 3b. The fact that eve has trended towards large gangs kind of hurts them 4. Drones could be easier to use 5. Aside from the Talos, they lack a good DPS ship for larger fleets. Some of these fixes seem self evident. As an aside, the talk about damage projection made me think. Gallente EW is based on hampering sensor range, which would be fine in small gangs to reduce the damage projection of other races, but not in larger ones for evening out the odds. The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 161	Posted - 2012.06.21 00:18:00 - [55] - Quote Brutix
Armeggeda iscariah Ganja Labs Exodus. 7	Posted - 2012.06.21 00:40:00 - [56] - Quote Gallente boats are used quite a bit for pvp. No one ever see's them because 90% of eve is stuck on Maelstrom/drake blobs. (Yay for gankbears everywhere.) Or aren't skilled for the damn blasters. As with every other race in eve most ships are used situationaly. I can name off a couple gallente ships that are used quite a bit. Lachesis/Arazu: Good long range tackle for small gangs all the way up to the big blobs Talos: Probably the most powerfull mix of glass cannon/nano faggotry ship in the game Brutix: Good solo boat Proteus: Best Tank/dps ratio for any subcap in game and probably the best heavy tackle for armor fleets. Ares: One of the best interceptors in game Ishkur/enyo: Extremely durable solo frigs that can dish out good applied dps. Megathron: Still the coolest and best bang for your buck close range battleship in game. Myrm: extremely durable solo ship that can tank quite a bit. Deimos: Suprisingly still a good ship despite its Die most reputation. Probably the best ship to fight drakes with and ive seen Ahac blobs of deimos's as well. Vindicater: (i know its a pirate BS , it still uses blasters so shut your face) The most DPS out of any subcap in game and a nasty web bonus to make anyone who looks at it funny die in a fire. Super nasty if used for hotdrops with triage support. All in all , you have to look in the right places to find them being used. just because the big Gankbear nullsec blobs don't use them all the time doesn't mean they aren't popular. --------------------------------------He who dares , wins.
Alara IonStorm 2456	Posted - 2012.06.21 00:43:00 - [57] - Quote Linna Excel wrote: 5. Aside from the Talos, they lack a good DPS ship for larger fleets. Talos isn't a fleet ship it is a small gang ship through and through. Mid Range it is out preformed by the Oracle and in Sniping it is out preformed by all three other ships in different areas. Nado/Volley, Naga/Range, Oracle DPS. It isn't DPS they lack. It is a bunch of different things. Tank / DPS / Accuracy and so forth. Would a fleet of 50 Rail Megathrons with tackle and support be a dangerous force. Absolutely but the Abbadon has more resists, better EHP and is more accurate with Scorch in mid range. Drake has the EHP, good range with low DPS at a 3rd the cost. Rokh does slightly less damage at a greater range. I could go on. When you talk fleets it has less to do about what works but a lot of factors are taken into account. * Cost. * Average pilot Training Lvl. * Ease of use. * Range. * Accuracy. * Speed. * DPS. * Ect. It is a Crap Shoot what people pick for there gang. People figure other ships have it 5-25% better so they go with them instead. Linna Excel wrote: As an aside, the talk about damage projection made me think. Gallente EW is based on hampering sensor range, which would be fine in small gangs to reduce the damage projection of other races, but not in larger ones for evening out the odds. Yes but it got nerfed pretty bad I hear. It isn't very effective overall with Gal Ships. Often times it doesn't shrink target range far enough to get people into scram range and when it does they run rather then dumbly run into the grinder. So you are in the same position you were in as before where they don't close range. There are Long Range Niche Gang setups I've heard of that use but nothing like ECM or TD's which are very effective.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 161	Posted - 2012.06.21 00:47:00 - [58] - Quote Brutix is basically a cheaper slightly less powerful talos.


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