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Bhaalgorn vs. Macharial vs. Vindicator

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 08:37:00 - [1] I own all three. I'm max skilled with max implants for all three. No, I don't have any bias for or against any of them. But flying them on TQ has made me look at little closer at each of them. The results were a little surprising. The Bhaalgorn- [Bhaalgorn, New Setup 1] Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Core A-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Domination Warp Disruptor Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Insane performance. 200 scan res, 185K EHP, 700+ GUN DPS, and three heavy neuts out to 28k+ crushing your cap for over 130 cap/sec. Let's not forget the 28km web. This thing is a monster. The Machariel- [Machariel, New Setup 2] Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Core A-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Domination Warp Disruptor Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I This thing is AMAZING! 170K EHP, 930+ GUN DPS, 3km optimal with 36(!!!)km falloff. Top speed of over 1300m/sec! Compare that to the Vindi doing about 900m/sec. That's almost a 50% increase! 300mm scan res! That's a 50% increase over either the Bhaal or the Vindi. This is super important when you're the one trying to get a target tackled. And the Mach can fit a heavy neut, plus the fact that the guns still shoot even with no cap. The Mach also does more DPS after 10km than the Vindi does, and inside 10km only does 10% less peak DPS. Exceptional performance. <more> -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 08:57:00 - [2] <continued> The Vindicator- [Vindicator, New Setup 1] Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gist A-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I The best feature of this ship is it's peak DPS at 1093, and it's 90% web bonus. Other than that you're looking at 200mm scan res, which isn't bad but not as good as the Mach. It has very high cap use for it's 8 guns, suffers from overheating problems (compared to the 4 guns of the Bhaal) and doesn't have any sort of heavy neutralizer to defend itself when compared to the other two. It does have the largest drone bay of the three (the standard 125m3), but I find that drones are rarely the deciding factor in a fight. It's the shortest ranged of all three ships, while only doing marginally more DPS than the Mach, and what the Bhaal lacks in peak DPS it more than makes up for in cap warfare and massive range of it's guns, web and neuts. Did I mention that the Vindicator has the least amount of EHP of any of the three above setups? 159K EHP. That's 11K less than the Mach and a whopping 26K less than the Bhaal. Not a small number indeed. The Vindi is sort of the odd man out. The Mach does everything better than the Vindi, except for peak DPS, and it comes within 5-10% of that figure. The Mach trounces the Vindi in every other category. The Bhaal is so unique and special with it's massive cap warfare capability and it's amazing cooperation of bonuses with respect to it's standoff range that there is really no other ship like it in the entirety of Eve. The Bhaal still shows itself to be superior to the Vindi in almost every respect, particularly considering the force multiplier that the cap warfare provides. The Vindicator needs to be vindicated. It needs that little something extra that will make it stand out and opponents sit up and take notice. Any suggestions? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Niraia Gallente Starcakes WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:02:00 - [3] Yeah, boost blasters :)
swedepicker	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:03:00 - [4] 50% more dps
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:05:00 - [5] I don't fly blaster BS so I can't actually answer your question, but I was curious as to what you thought of fitting the Machariel like a super Vagabond? Even without any implants it'll push 1900 m/s on just 3 nanos and almost 2700 m/s overloaded, with the agility of a (fast) cruiser. Or is that a recipe for failure? ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Terianna Eri I don't fly blaster BS so I can't actually answer your question, but I was curious as to what you thought of fitting the Machariel like a super Vagabond? Even without any implants it'll push 1900 m/s on just 3 nanos and almost 2700 m/s overloaded, with the agility of a (fast) cruiser. Or is that a recipe for failure? It's a great fit, but I was simply demonstrating the differences in performance of the ships with fits that were as similar as possible. The "Super Vaga" concept is indeed not only viable but highly recommended. For what I do (tackling and killing ships on gates under sentry fire) that particular setup isn't that useful for me personally. But yes, it's a very competitive direction to take the ship. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:45:00 - [7] Please note I know nothing about blaster boats as I've never flown one... only race I don't fly. but I had a random crazy idea for a boost to blasters so I thought I'd post it here see what you think. All numbers are just rough stabs in the dark 1st change - Decrease range of blasters by 50% both optimal and falloffof the turrets. - Increase base damage of blasters by aproximately 50% - Increase tracking of blasters by 50-100%. 2nd change rework the ammo change it so that instead of between -50% and +60% it is between -75% and +90%. Damage will increase in scale as well so the shorter range will have more damage than current antimatter and the longer range will have less damage than current longest range. ------------------------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 09:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Typhado3 Please note I know nothing about blaster boats as I've never flown one... only race I don't fly. but I had a random crazy idea for a boost to blasters so I thought I'd post it here see what you think. All numbers are just rough stabs in the dark 1st change - Decrease range of blasters by 50% both optimal and falloffof the turrets. - Increase base damage of blasters by aproximately 50% - Increase tracking of blasters by 50-100%. 2nd change rework the ammo change it so that instead of between -50% and +60% it is between -75% and +90%. Damage will increase in scale as well so the shorter range will have more damage than current antimatter and the longer range will have less damage than current longest range. Blaster range is already microscopic, relatively speaking. I think the increased damage and tracking would be just fine without the range and falloff decrease, and the ammo should go from -50% to +100% range variation. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 10:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Terianna Eri I don't fly blaster BS so I can't actually answer your question, but I was curious as to what you thought of fitting the Machariel like a super Vagabond? Even without any implants it'll push 1900 m/s on just 3 nanos and almost 2700 m/s overloaded, with the agility of a (fast) cruiser. Or is that a recipe for failure? Had one on Sisi with two nanos and shield buffer fit - can't quite remember if anything got changed since - worked out pretty well. New dronebay is nice :)
NightmareX Infinitus Odium Scum Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:08:00 - [10] Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise

Atsuko Yamamoto The Nietzian Way	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:11:00 - [11] Originally the Vindi had great capacitor potential, reaching over 11k cap with the right imps and mods. That allowed for a 80% across the board active dual rep tank with about 152k EHP. The almost doubled capacitor on the active tank setup made it a beast to tap out. Now it's in the same low cap range, though still better, as its variants. Active tanking is out of style with a lot of folks but the best Vindicators I have seen flown were high resist and dual rep, maybe going back to the cap boost? I know people say "but look, a hyperion!" but with the stasis web boost and 8th gun; Kronos? So shrug I guess it'll still take after some form of the lower BS types.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:17:00 - [12] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. 100% actually. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Vanthropy on 11/12/2009 11:19:43 i think projectiles and lazors are now balanced well to each other but yes, bellum, that leaves blasters. I appreciate ccp keeping all the weapon types separate because that's f'ing awesome, I love doing different things. But if blaster dps were boosted by even a small margin they would retain an appeal over the other weapon types, which are, as of now significantly overpowering compared to blasters. I just feel like it's hard for me to justify flying a blastership now when i can just fly an autocannon ship that is faster and does almost as much dps as a blastership with massively better range options. I fly minmatar and Gallente and that is my accessment. 10% dps increase for blasters, keep the rest of their stats the same. and I'll be happy to fly them. then ever weapon group would feel wild-card balanced to me "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
achoura	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:38:00 - [14] Nice posts Two questions. 1. Why no rattle? It got buffed too, does virtually the vindis dps at greater range while tanking insane amounts of damage. True, it lacks the vindis agility, but for a BS agility doesn't really compensate for tank these days. 2. What is the purpose of this thread? (serious question) There's already one in the GD forum several pages in length. I'm probably posting too early before coffee, but I've missed the point of this entirely... *The EVE servers and their patches*
fivetide humidyear Gallente Fool Mental Junket	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:48:00 - [15] It's nice to see the other faction battleships on a par with the nightmare, and nice to see nightmare prices dropping. It's been said beofre but the best way to buff blasters is probably a 5-10% damage boost on the ammo and a tracking buff to the 3 tiers of guns. To give the vindi that vavavoom, a slight increase to gun damage bonus would be nice or a optimal boost such as the deimos / astarte?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.11 11:53:00 - [16] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 11/12/2009 11:52:58 Originally by: fivetide humidyear It's nice to see the other faction battleships on a par with the nightmare, and nice to see nightmare prices dropping. It's been said beofre but the best way to buff blasters is probably a 5-10% damage boost on the ammo and a tracking buff to the 3 tiers of guns. To give the vindi that vavavoom, a slight increase to gun damage bonus would be nice or a optimal boost such as the deimos / astarte? Well, Vindi got a nice tracking bonus, and web bonus, so it should **** smaller classes of ship easily enough, while being able to deal full damage to BSs at close range as well. Its a good ship, but Bhaal really overshines them all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Typhado3 Please note I know nothing about blaster boats as I've never flown one... only race I don't fly. but I had a random crazy idea for a boost to blasters so I thought I'd post it here see what you think. All numbers are just rough stabs in the dark 1st change - Decrease range of blasters by 50% both optimal and falloffof the turrets. - Increase base damage of blasters by aproximately 50% - Increase tracking of blasters by 50-100%. 2nd change rework the ammo change it so that instead of between -50% and +60% it is between -75% and +90%. Damage will increase in scale as well so the shorter range will have more damage than current antimatter and the longer range will have less damage than current longest range. Blaster range is already microscopic, relatively speaking. I think the increased damage and tracking would be just fine without the range and falloff decrease, and the ammo should go from -50% to +100% range variation. The idea was to give blasters a unique option of point blank complete damage superiority, pushing blasters range down to nothing was kinda intentional. Also having ammo go down to -75% was to make bigger steps so there would be more of a reason to choose between ammo, ideally their would still be a ammo with same range and damage as ammo so it's more options. Another idea I pulles out of my arse. Blasters have 3 types can't remember their names but how bout: light: longest range, lowest damage and tracking. med: mid range, mid damage and tracking. heavy: Shortest range, super high damage, super tracking. Just an idea, maybe I should probably retreat to the f&i forum and stay away from gallente balance threads. ------------------------------
Eli Porter	Posted - 2009.12.11 12:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Typhado3 Edited by: Typhado3 on 11/12/2009 12:42:09 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Typhado3 Please note I know nothing about blaster boats as I've never flown one... only race I don't fly. but I had a random crazy idea for a boost to blasters so I thought I'd post it here see what you think. All numbers are just rough stabs in the dark 1st change - Decrease range of blasters by 50% both optimal and falloffof the turrets. - Increase base damage of blasters by aproximately 50% - Increase tracking of blasters by 50-100%. 2nd change rework the ammo change it so that instead of between -50% and +60% it is between -75% and +90%. Damage will increase in scale as well so the shorter range will have more damage than current antimatter and the longer range will have less damage than current longest range. Blaster range is already microscopic, relatively speaking. I think the increased damage and tracking would be just fine without the range and falloff decrease, and the ammo should go from -50% to +100% range variation. The idea was to give blasters a unique option of point blank complete damage superiority, pushing blasters range down to nothing was kinda intentional. Also having ammo go down to -75% was to make bigger steps so there would be more of a reason to choose between ammo, ideally their would still be a ammo with same range and damage as antimatter so it's more and more extreme options. Another idea I pulles out of my arse. Blasters have 3 types can't remember their names but how bout: light: longest range, lowest damage and tracking. med: mid range, mid damage and tracking. heavy: Shortest range, super high damage, super tracking. Just an idea, maybe I should probably retreat to the f&i forum and stay away from gallente balance threads. People still use Null L for gatecamps. Crippling its range would butcher fleet CR Blaster BS's. What I would like is the reload halved on Blasters and Railguns, so switching ammo from Null to AM wouldn't take ages and Rails would receive a well needed slight boost to contend with Arties and Beams a little better.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Typhado3 Blasters have 3 types can't remember their names but how bout: light: longest range, lowest damage and tracking. med: mid range, mid damage and tracking. heavy: Shortest range, super high damage, super tracking. nah... would go for increase damage tbh. blaster is supposed to be the equivalent of shooting severa sawed-off shotguns at point blank range. Atm they don't have a relevant damage output vs the other short range weapons, that can compensate their stupidly low operability range. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.12.11 13:09:00 - [20] Originally by: Grimpak blaster is supposed to be the equivalent of shooting severa sawed-off shotguns at point blank range. Atm they don't have a relevant damage output vs the other short range weapons, that can compensate their stupidly low operability range. Current blasters in a nut shell tbfh. Need either more range and nothing else, or a lot more damage.

Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:23:00 - [21] Whaaat, Mach got 100mbits now? NERF IT! Back to 75mibts with you, you bastard son of junkheaps!
Arrador	Posted - 2009.12.11 14:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Typhado3 Please note I know nothing about blaster boats as I've never flown one... only race I don't fly. but I had a random crazy idea for a boost to blasters so I thought I'd post it here see what you think. All numbers are just rough stabs in the dark 1st change - Decrease range of blasters by 50% both optimal and falloffof the turrets. - Increase base damage of blasters by aproximately 50% - Increase tracking of blasters by 50-100%. 2nd change rework the ammo change it so that instead of between -50% and +60% it is between -75% and +90%. Damage will increase in scale as well so the shorter range will have more damage than current antimatter and the longer range will have less damage than current longest range. Holy Hell, thats no boost. That is a mother-****ing castration of blasters! I've bolded the part that is your mistake.
Sonreir Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:12:00 - [23] When I started playing EVE about 5 years ago, people used to **** themselved if a Megathron jumped in on top of them because the fight was going to be over in just a few seconds. I would really like to see that feeling recaptured. The nerf to webs, boost to EHP of ships, and other such changes have altered one of the scariest situations in EVE to become just another day at the office. Blasters are supposed to be THE short-range, high-damage weapons system. IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a blasterboat tearing through another ship in 30 seconds flat (so long as said target is under 10km). I think CCP has it mostly right with the Taranis. If a blasterboat can get in range of a ship of equal size and then control the range, you're dead. End of.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:14:00 - [24] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. The amount of sense you make these days just drops my jaw to the floor NMX. Good ideas! (Though I'd be cool with a slightly larger DPS increase.)
Meatypopsicle	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Sonreir When I started playing EVE about 5 years ago, people used to **** themselved if a Megathron jumped in on top of them because the fight was going to be over in just a few seconds. I would really like to see that feeling recaptured. The nerf to webs, boost to EHP of ships, and other such changes have altered one of the scariest situations in EVE to become just another day at the office. Blasters are supposed to be THE short-range, high-damage weapons system. IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a blasterboat tearing through another ship in 30 seconds flat (so long as said target is under 10km). I think CCP has it mostly right with the Taranis. If a blasterboat can get in range of a ship of equal size and then control the range, you're dead. End of. This. When you have to get right in someones face in order to hit them it ought to be a hit unlike anything else in the game.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Meatypopsicle Originally by: Sonreir When I started playing EVE about 5 years ago, people used to **** themselved if a Megathron jumped in on top of them because the fight was going to be over in just a few seconds. I would really like to see that feeling recaptured. The nerf to webs, boost to EHP of ships, and other such changes have altered one of the scariest situations in EVE to become just another day at the office. Blasters are supposed to be THE short-range, high-damage weapons system. IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a blasterboat tearing through another ship in 30 seconds flat (so long as said target is under 10km). I think CCP has it mostly right with the Taranis. If a blasterboat can get in range of a ship of equal size and then control the range, you're dead. End of. This. When you have to get right in someones face in order to hit them it ought to be a hit unlike anything else in the game. yeah with enough hp to get into that range without being half BBQed before you start shooting. OMG: give inactive blasters a bonus to armor HP and speed!!!
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.12.11 15:52:00 - [27] Quote: Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. Hahaha No.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Sonreir When I started playing EVE about 5 years ago, people used to ** themselved if a Megathron jumped in on top of them because the fight was going to be over in just a few seconds. I would really like to see that feeling recaptured. The nerf to webs, boost to EHP of ships, and other such changes have altered one of the scariest situations in EVE to become just another day at the office. Blasters are supposed to be THE short-range, high-damage weapons system. IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a blasterboat tearing through another ship in 30 seconds flat (so long as said target is under 10km). I think CCP has it mostly right with the Taranis. If a blasterboat can get in range of a ship of equal size and then control the range, you're dead. End of. indeed, blaster ships should feel like bricks hitting you. 10kg bricks on fire, shot point-blank by a gauss gun. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.12.11 16:38:00 - [29] Edited by: Omarvelous on 11/12/2009 16:43:59 I don't understand why you're fitting a self-repper on these battleships. I would go with full buffer and rely on my gang's logistics/RR-BS to help out. Is the idea to solo pirate in them? If so, they will get blobbed and the single repper will do nothing. Is it to 1v1 pilots in duals? If so I'd run 2-reppers. Also complaining about not being able to fit a neut on the vindicator is silly, you can drop a gun and fit one. Which brings me to the next point: That fact that it barely does more dps with 8 guns than a mach with 7 guns, while using cap, and while not being able to compete with range, is a blasters problem more so than a Vindicator problem. You might have maxed out skills in all the racial BS, but I remember your posts from back in the day, and admit it, deep-down you're a blaster fan. Blaster boats were damage kings in 2006- early 2007, and that's no longer the case. If this is an attempt to boost them back to their status as the best weapon choice within web range, I support this. Right now: - Torps do more damage than blasters, while choosing damage type, and using no cap and hitting from 2x as far out. - Projectiles on ships with double damage bonus do more damage than gallente boats armed with blasters. - While using no cap. - Not being limited to what damage type is dealt. - 2x the engagement range of blasters. - Lasers do 90% of blaster damage while having 2-3 times the effective combat range. - Without the need to reload - AND they can instantly switch ammo (instant switch from Multifrequency to scorch depending on target range - no need to worry about Amarr BS slowness). Where's the advantage of blasters? - They are NOT cap-less like projectiles (and now projectiles do nearly the same dps with 2x the range), and they DON'T instantly switch ammo to fit a tactical situation like lasers (which also have a lot more range). If I have to dive into every target, then make the damage increase over the other weapons noticeable enough to make it worth it! If I can't choose what damage type to shoot at someone (stuck with kinetic/thermal) then make the damage increase over other weapon platforms that can choose their damage type - worth it damnit! Hybrids get all the other weapon platform negatives: - Cap-use like lasers. - 10-second wait to switch ammo like missiles and projectiles. - Stuck with a dual-damage type - like lasers. What sets them apart?! What do blasters have as a UNIQUE advantage?!?! There, I added my 2-cents to your stealthy blaster whine. NEED HELP SHOOTING SOMEONE?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 19:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Omarvelous <stuff snipped for space> Why did I stick with a hybrid rep/plate setup? It's what I've found convenient and effective for me personally for the niche fighting I do. How the ships are fit in the lows is really less of an issue here as they all have the same equivalent tank, no? Yes, I agree that for an RR gang an all plate setup would be superior, but I'm not operating in an RR gang most of the time. I do a lot of solo stuff on gates. Second, yes, I get blobbed a lot, but that just goes with the territory. Third, the Vindi only has a very very small damage advantage over the others and if you remove one turret for a neut then that damage advantage evaporates, making it totally worthless compared to the other two ships. Not an option in my book. 1v1 duels? Not set up for that either. While I agree with you that blasters have a base problem when compared to projectiles and lasers, I also think that the Vindicator lacks a significant performance bonus over and above any sort of blaster fixing. Personally I think a very (very) large damage bonus would be worthwhile (say, 50%), to give the ship some real bite. Yes, I've always been a blaster fan, but these days killing stuff with Gallente ships is the minority of ship kills for me. I fly just about everything except Gallente at the moment. Sad but true. The fact that the Mach is almost 50% faster than the Vindi, it has 50% better lock speed, much more DPS over 10km away and even more EHP than the Vindi was just a little startling when I actually looked at how the ships stacked up in my hangar. And the Bhaal, well, it's just a three headed monster with ten foot fangs and poison dripping off of them. Also, to address some other people's comments about not including the Rattlesnake or the Nightmare: they're shield tanked ships and as such are completely different animals. Are they insanely awesome? Yes, I think so. I just used the Vindi, Mach and Bhaal as easy examples because the slot layout and fitting ability are almost identical. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships

NightmareX Infinitus Odium Scum Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 20:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Jovialmadness Quote: Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. Hahaha No. Can i ask why?. Not that the projectiles will suffer from more DPS on Blasters now when they have this huge falloff. And on some of the t1 med range projectiles ammos you get like 20% tracking bonus on the ammos. So letting Blasters have a little more tracking doesn't hurt. And about the Vindicator, i can be pretty honest and say that the damage bonus on the Vindicator SHOULD be 37.5%. Even look here, where a dev even admitted it should have 37.5% damage bonus. Originally by: Seriously Bored The amount of sense you make these days just drops my jaw to the floor NMX. Good ideas! (Though I'd be cool with a slightly larger DPS increase.) Hehe, you know, my Advanced Sense Posting skill is now at level 4. It was on level 2 not so long time ago. Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.12.11 20:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Omarvelous <stuff snipped for space> Why did I stick with a hybrid rep/plate setup? It's what I've found convenient and effective for me personally for the niche fighting I do. How the ships are fit in the lows is really less of an issue here as they all have the same equivalent tank, no? for lowsec piracy tis the best imo. and isn't your overall assessment of the vindi pretty much the same as what people were saying in the changes thread a while back? You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:09:00 - [33] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 11/12/2009 21:14:49 Quote: Originally by: Jovialmadness Quote: Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 11/12/2009 11:09:38 This is how i think it should be. 1. First of all, boost Blaster DPS in general by 5 - 7.5%. I wont go any higher than that atm, simply because CCP just boosted Projectiles, so i don't really want to screw Projectiles over again lol. 2. Then change the damage bonus on the Vindicator from 25% to 37.5%. 3. Give Blasters 5 - 7.5% more tracking, just because projectiles gets some nice tracking bonuses on some of the ammos. 4. Leave the range alone now. After this, i think some things might be much better. Doesn't you agree Bellum?. Hahaha No. Can i ask why?. Not that the projectiles will suffer from more DPS on Blasters now when they have this huge falloff. And on some of the t1 med range projectiles ammos you get like 20% tracking bonus on the ammos. So letting Blasters have a little more tracking doesn't hurt. And about the Vindicator, i can be pretty honest and say that the damage bonus on the Vindicator SHOULD be 37.5%. Even look here, where a dev even admitted it should have 37.5% damage bonus. Originally by: Seriously Bored The amount of sense you make these days just drops my jaw to the floor NMX. Good ideas! (Though I'd be cool with a slightly larger DPS increase.) Hehe, you know, my Advanced Sense Posting skill is now at level 4. It was on level 2 not so long time ago. Absolutely you may. Short and sweet answer is you already have a pretty "decent" boat in the vindicator. Two aspects of dps are important in game, hitting power and the ability to traverse and score a hit i.e. Tracking. Increasing dps through two damage bonuses and increasing your ability to actually land the shots is just wishful thinking. That damn boat would be an abomination. Jovial Edit. I might could see some of those bonuses and not necessarily those numbers but good grief not all.
JingJangJung	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:28:00 - [34] Mach: double LAR tank with dual 650mm ACs and mwd is awesome too! With rep rigs ofc.. Bhaal: i would go pure buffer, i get around 300k EHP with full buffer and LG slaves.. Vindi: it sucks, thats why i dont own it yet
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.12.11 21:33:00 - [35] Originally by: Bellum Eternus No, I don't have any bias for or against any of them. Stop posting.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.11 22:25:00 - [36] Originally by: el caido Originally by: Bellum Eternus No, I don't have any bias for or against any of them. Stop posting. Stop hiding behind a nameless alt you gutless coward. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
NightmareX Infinitus Odium Scum Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.11 22:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Jovialmadness Absolutely you may. Short and sweet answer is you already have a pretty "decent" boat in the vindicator. Two aspects of dps are important in game, hitting power and the ability to traverse and score a hit i.e. Tracking. Increasing dps through two damage bonuses and increasing your ability to actually land the shots is just wishful thinking. That damn boat would be an abomination. Jovial Edit. I might could see some of those bonuses and not necessarily those numbers but good grief not all. Well if you read what the dev said in the link i gave you earlier, then you will understand why the Vindicator deserve a 37.5% Damage bonus instead of a 25%. So even when 37.5% damage bonus on the Vindi, you still have to get really close to the targets your shooting. But the thing is, if you get into web range, there is a hard way out of that. It should be like that. Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise
Solo Quest Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.12 02:00:00 - [38] The Machariel is a beast!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.12 09:20:00 - [39] After flying the Mach a bit more, I just can't see going back to the Vindi unless it gets some insane damage boost or something. It's just so amazing at catching ships- I can catch plated cruisers with it, something that is impossible with just about any other BS. The DPS is just incredible. I can two volley most cruisers with autocannons. It's silly. And the Bhaalgorn's cap warfare has to be seen to be believed. With 3x IN large neuts I'm killing over 130 cap/sec at 28+km. Really impressive. CCP did a really great job with the faction ship redesign. The Vindi simply needs to be improved as much as the other ships have been. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.12.12 17:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Bellum Eternus After flying the Mach a bit more, I just can't see going back to the Vindi unless it gets some insane damage boost or something. It's just so amazing at catching ships- I can catch plated cruisers with it, something that is impossible with just about any other BS. The DPS is just incredible. I can two volley most cruisers with autocannons. It's silly. And the Bhaalgorn's cap warfare has to be seen to be believed. With 3x IN large neuts I'm killing over 130 cap/sec at 28+km. Really impressive. CCP did a really great job with the faction ship redesign. The Vindi simply needs to be improved as much as the other ships have been. Bellum Eternus once agian makes perfect sense. I have these 3 ships, and when i need high damage and nimble, im taking the mach over the vindi too. Theres nothing that the vindi is really offering, and as the ship reqs are the same youd be MAD not to go with the cheap, stupidly fast Mach over the vindi every time. Also considering the vindi MUST get so close and with an active tank, mwd and cap using wepaons, just a nuet or two will have your gasping for cap in no time, whil the machs sitting pretty at 15kms doing 90% of its damage potential even with zero cap remaining, seksy. The bhaals in a league really, with 1050 cap nuetted every 8 seconds (3150/24 sec) the only thing this cant kill super fast solo is somthing totally passive, but with the webs and faction piont (@upto30km+) a target isnt going anywhere fast!

Nova Satar Heroes. Primary.	Posted - 2009.12.13 14:15:00 - [41] what the hell is this thread all about. "The mach does xxxx dps so the vindi HAS to do more becuase the mach has 60km falloff" For starters, 60km falloff means **** all, nobody is going to be shooting from any further than 30km anyway. Do you realise that the DPS is reduced when fighting in fall off? So in reality "the mach only does xxxx dps" ...at about 5km...
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.12.13 18:24:00 - [42] All the fits look like gatecamping fits, solo gatecamping fits. All of them are fitted according to the same mentality, the same purpose. Could it be that perhaps the ships themselves have been designed with different purposes in mind ? Why must all of them be held up to the same standard and not have some diversity ? --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.12.13 19:22:00 - [43] i think nightmare has pretty much the correct point. Although i think a bit tooo much. Would make the damage bonus 30% not 37%. 37.5% sided with blasters boost could result in some really silly numbers on an overheating ship. But maybe what is needed is not changes to ship or weapons now. Maybe the deal now is CCP think on adjusting some mechanics to increase the value of short range combat. HOw? Have no idea.. but i think if that was possible would be a much better change.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.14 08:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Nova Satar what the hell is this thread all about. "The mach does xxxx dps so the vindi HAS to do more becuase the mach has 60km falloff" For starters, 60km falloff means **** all, nobody is going to be shooting from any further than 30km anyway. Do you realise that the DPS is reduced when fighting in fall off? So in reality "the mach only does xxxx dps" ...at about 5km... Once again someone completely misses the point on purpose. I don't care about falloff. Yes, I'm well aware that DPS is reduced in falloff. The reality is that the Mach does 95% of the Vindi's DPS in the same operating range as the Vindi, it does MORE DPS than the Vindi outside of 10km, uses no cap for it's guns, has a heavy neut where the Vindi doesn't, goes almost 50% faster than the Vindi and has 11K more EHP with a similar armor tank. Oh, and it now has truely selectable damage types with it's guns thanks to CCP's latest changes (which is totally awesome). Only an idiot would read my OP and get this out of it: "The mach does xxxx dps so the vindi HAS to do more becuase the mach has 60km falloff". And you're not an idiot, right? The Vindi needs something like a 50% damage bonus if it's to be worth choosing over the Mach. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.14 08:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Muad' Dib All the fits look like gatecamping fits, solo gatecamping fits. All of them are fitted according to the same mentality, the same purpose. Could it be that perhaps the ships themselves have been designed with different purposes in mind ? Why must all of them be held up to the same standard and not have some diversity ? They don't. I'm simply demonstrating the vast performance differences of the three ships with almost the exact same fit. If I were to make wildly different setups with each then it could be argued that each setup can't be fairly compared, which would be correct. Quite frankly, the Mach and Bhaal have options with respect to fittings and roles, but the Vindi does not. It's pretty much a one trick pony and that's it. I don't see any Nano Vindis around, or Neut Vindis, do you? A shield tanked Vindi works in some situations, but that's very rare, and a speed fit Vindi (similar to what you can do with the Mach) is a joke. The Vindi needs to be better at what it's supposed to do best: be in your face with overwhelming DPS. Right now it's a joke. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Menzies Campbell	Posted - 2009.12.14 08:22:00 - [46] I reckon the sensor boosters are a waste of a med slot. If you want a cheap belt gank, sure, they're useful, but if you are actually out for a fight, you won't have to worry about locking stuff before it warps. Better options: 2x webs, especially on Bhaal and vindi. It seems like a no brainer to me: 2x 90% webs or 2x 28km webs = brutal. ECCM is always helpful too.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.12.14 09:23:00 - [47] Originally by: Menzies Campbell I reckon the sensor boosters are a waste of a med slot. If you want a cheap belt gank, sure, they're useful, but if you are actually out for a fight, you won't have to worry about locking stuff before it warps. Better options: 2x webs, especially on Bhaal and vindi. It seems like a no brainer to me: 2x 90% webs or 2x 28km webs = brutal. ECCM is always helpful too. The entire point of the thread isn't to debate what setups are the best or what I should or shouldn't have fit. The fits are simply demo fits to keep everything as even as possible. Yes, I regularly fit dual webs. Yes, you're right- -99% velocity from a Vindi is great, and dual webs on the Bhaal and Mach are awesome as well. Please stop getting distracted by all the small shiny objects and focus on the big picture. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.12.17 14:50:00 - [48] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 17/12/2009 14:52:50 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Muad' Dib All the fits look like gatecamping fits, solo gatecamping fits. All of them are fitted according to the same mentality, the same purpose. Could it be that perhaps the ships themselves have been designed with different purposes in mind ? Why must all of them be held up to the same standard and not have some diversity ? They don't. I'm simply demonstrating the vast performance differences of the three ships with almost the exact same fit. If I were to make wildly different setups with each then it could be argued that each setup can't be fairly compared, which would be correct. Quite frankly, the Mach and Bhaal have options with respect to fittings and roles, but the Vindi does not. It's pretty much a one trick pony and that's it. I don't see any Nano Vindis around, or Neut Vindis, do you? A shield tanked Vindi works in some situations, but that's very rare, and a speed fit Vindi (similar to what you can do with the Mach) is a joke. The Vindi needs to be better at what it's supposed to do best: be in your face with overwhelming DPS. Right now it's a joke. So your whining that your 3 pirate faction completely different ships which are there to provide diversity have different performances at completing a specific task ? Damn dude, whine about blasters and Vindi more directly than this. PS: Think about whining with a different char, your threads about gallente have started to remind ppl of the 'boy that cried wolf'. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.17 15:53:00 - [49] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 17/12/2009 15:55:43 Originally by: Muad' Dib So your whining that your 3 pirate faction completely different ships which are there to provide diversity have different performances at completing a specific task ? He's saying that when these three completely different ships are fit similarly and used the same (that is, in the situation that the Vindicator should theoretically be best at), the Vindy isn't clearly on top. 37.5% damage for the Vindicator sounds perfectly fine to me. There should be no face left unmelted within 10KM of the thing.
Siddy Minmatar Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Sonreir When I started playing EVE about 5 years ago, people used to ** themselved if a Megathron jumped in on top of them because the fight was going to be over in just a few seconds. HAHA NO people used to ** themselfs if raven warpped on top of them. 400k missile SP, BS lvl 4 raven outdamaged lvl 5 12m SP gunnery blaster tron "back in the days" Raven also out tankked tron that was back in the days. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint



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