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Rook/Falcon vs Curse/Pilgrim

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Negativestatus Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.12.13 21:54:00 - [1] Who wins that fight 1v1? How would someone counter the Amarr recon ships neuting abilities?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.12.13 22:13:00 - [2] Rook/Falcon have more extended buffer, ECM and more (capless) damage than the Pilgrim/Curse. If you know you are going against an Amarr recon either fit an injector to get a jam streak going or skip ECM entirely and go all buffer/damage for the WTF! effect. Cap warfare is short range and extremely potent when used right, but it is hardly iWinÖ except against cap hungry boats.
Negativestatus Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.12.13 22:21:00 - [3] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Rook/Falcon have more extended buffer, ECM and more (capless) damage than the Pilgrim/Curse. If you know you are going against an Amarr recon either fit an injector to get a jam streak going or skip ECM entirely and go all buffer/damage for the WTF! effect. Cap warfare is short range and extremely potent when used right, but it is hardly iWinÖ except against cap hungry boats. Sorry for the dumb question, but whats an injector?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.12.13 22:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Negativestatus Sorry for the dumb question, but whats an injector? Capacitor Injector .. known on market as Capacitor Boosters, ammo using gizmo's that provide capacitor from cargo eating charges. Pretty much standard on a vast majority of PvP fits for the small skirmishes these days.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.12.13 23:41:00 - [5] Falcon tackles the pilgrim and jams it! The rook jams the curse and throws missiles at it till it gets the point! Caldari Rule Solo PVP!!! [Falcon, Falcon/Blaster] 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 10MN Afterburner II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x2 [Rook, Rook] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Signal Distortion Amplifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Sensor Booster II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II Warrior II x5 The above statements was ment to be a flame...
Terrus Valkin Gallente ArmoredCore Armed Forces	Posted - 2009.12.14 02:03:00 - [6] Depends on how they're fit. Do they know they're going up against each other in advance? Are the falcon/rook specifically set up to have a cap booster and Amarr-specific jammers? Do pilgrim/curse have lots of ECCM? Find out next time, on DRAGON BALL Z!
King Rothgar Imperial Slave Hunter Society	Posted - 2009.12.14 03:12:00 - [7] I have little experience actually doing this in game (and honestly, who does?) but every fight I've had in a curse/pilgrim vs rook/falcon has ended horribly for the rook/falcon. The basic tactic for a curse or pilgrim is to disable the ECM boat by capping it out before he has a chance to jam you. I have yet to see an ECM boat fit a cap injector so this works incredibly well. The trick is not getting permajammed before you can neut him. To accomplish this I drop my TD in favor of an ECCM. Just prior to dropping out of warp on top of the ECM boat I overload my ECCM and keep it overloaded for the duration of the fight. Recons have naturally high sensor strength and this combined with an overloaded ECCM makes you extremely tough to jam even on a 1v1 basis. Neither ship really does a whole lot of damage so the fight will likely last more than 20 seconds, as such, even if you get jammed initially, you can still win if you are luckier on his second cycle. Once the ECM boat is capped out the fight is over for him. Both the curse and pilgrim can be reasonably tanked for EW ships and typically are. Although you can put a very solid tank on the ECM birds too, almost no one does. It is worth noting that I am altering my normal curse and pilgrim setups to do this. This can be considered cheating as it requires me to have a spare ECCM on hand and have the time to dock and change setups. In more generic pvp where you can't prepare in advance, it can still work. But you absolutely must lock him before he locks you. Whoever gets a lock first will probably win if neither ship is refitted to specifically counter the other. -----------------------------------------------------
Arthello Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.12.14 15:34:00 - [8] Edited by: Arthello on 14/12/2009 15:35:12 Fail one ECM-cycle and the Curse/Pilgrim pilot will make sure you won't have cap for another and I've never seen a Rook/Falcon with a cap booster. Second argument is that once the drones are on the trail of something they don't care if it's master has a lock or not. This skirmish isn't as obvious as it first may appear for some. Personal skills + chaotic combat incidents will decide who win the day. edit so say: I concur with King Hrothgar
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.12.14 16:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Arthello Edited by: Arthello on 14/12/2009 15:35:12 Fail one ECM-cycle and the Curse/Pilgrim pilot will make sure you won't have cap for another and I've never seen a Rook/Falcon with a cap booster. Second argument is that once the drones are on the trail of something they don't care if it's master has a lock or not. This skirmish isn't as obvious as it first may appear for some. Personal skills + chaotic combat incidents will decide who win the day. edit so say: I concur with King Hrothgar yes the drones will still pursue hence your own drones and a light buffer. (doesnt completely work though) also once the master is jammed nothing is keeping u in the combat, gives u the gtfo option. weather you count that as a win or not is up to you. but warrior IIs do eat drones fast. but might not be fast enough. id toss it at 50/50 depending on the pilot skills (notsp) and the surroundings. AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!
Terrus Valkin Gallente ArmoredCore Armed Forces	Posted - 2009.12.14 16:38:00 - [10] Once the opponent is jammed or neuted, either pilot could possess the GTFO option. And at that point there'd be no reason to run anyway. I wouldn't list that as a huge positive unless the guy was taking drone aggro and didn't have the buffer to deal with it.

Zaq Phelps Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.15 20:37:00 - [11] The standard curse/pilgrim will win over the standard falcon/rook for two reasons: -Recons have naturally high sensor strength, meaning that unless the falcon/rook is specifically fit for Amarr jamming, he will miss a lot of cycles (and then fail cascade to neuts). The ECM boat could fit cap boosters, but it cuts into the already delegated mids and tight fitting. -Curses/pilgrims have better drones than their caldari counterparts which will bypass their master being jammed. The rook might have a chance if he has enough buffer to kill the drones or the curse/pilgrim before he pops, but the falcon would be royally screwed in a 1v1. I've been through it before, falcons and rooks should stay away from other recons. Thus is why I ignore the guns on the falcon and put Neuts/NOS/Smartbomb in the highs with a buffer in the mids/lows when flying with a fleet so I have a chance to GTFO.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.12.15 22:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Zaq Phelps The standard curse/pilgrim will win over the standard falcon/rook for two reasons: -Recons have naturally high sensor strength, meaning that unless the falcon/rook is specifically fit for Amarr jamming, he will miss a lot of cycles (and then fail cascade to neuts). The ECM boat could fit cap boosters, but it cuts into the already delegated mids and tight fitting. -Curses/pilgrims have better drones than their caldari counterparts which will bypass their master being jammed. This. The Curse will launch drones and auto-aggro the Rook/Falcon. With the high sensor strength of a Curse (even without ECCM), eventually the Rook/Falcon will fail to jam, and will no longer have any cap to try again. Meanwhile the worst possible outcome for the Curse pilot is a draw, as a nano Curse is much faster than a Rook or Falcon and can easily disengage if it takes too much damage. The best possible outcome for the Rook/Falcon that gets caught by a Curse is a lucky jam cycle that allows an immediate warp out. Don't even bother trying to fight the Curse, you will not win. ----------- FREE ABATHUR - HAVING GOOD 0.0 IDEAS IS NOT A CRIME.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.12.16 02:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Zaq Phelps The standard curse/pilgrim will win over the standard falcon/rook for two reasons: -Recons have naturally high sensor strength, meaning that unless the falcon/rook is specifically fit for Amarr jamming, he will miss a lot of cycles (and then fail cascade to neuts). The ECM boat could fit cap boosters, but it cuts into the already delegated mids and tight fitting. -Curses/pilgrims have better drones than their caldari counterparts which will bypass their master being jammed. This. The Curse will launch drones and auto-aggro the Rook/Falcon. With the high sensor strength of a Curse (even without ECCM), eventually the Rook/Falcon will fail to jam, and will no longer have any cap to try again. Meanwhile the worst possible outcome for the Curse pilot is a draw, as a nano Curse is much faster than a Rook or Falcon and can easily disengage if it takes too much damage. The best possible outcome for the Rook/Falcon that gets caught by a Curse is a lucky jam cycle that allows an immediate warp out. Don't even bother trying to fight the Curse, you will not win. Well the above is a challenge! In the future i will revisit this suject with the required amount of kills to prove the falcon/rook are the best recons ingame period.
Aralieus Amarr Traumark Logistics	Posted - 2009.12.16 02:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Terrus Valkin Depends on how they're fit. Do they know they're going up against each other in advance? Are the falcon/rook specifically set up to have a cap booster and Amarr-specific jammers? Do pilgrim/curse have lots of ECCM? Find out next time, on DRAGON BALL Z! LoL at the DBZ, however would it really matter if all the Curse/Pilgrim had to do is launch drones set on aggressive? Regardless if its jammed or not the damage will still continue. Curse/Pilgrim wouldnt be able to hold point thus forcing Rook/Falcon to warp off. If drones get shot at, just recall and release again. Fortune favors the bold!!!
Von diux Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.12.16 02:22:00 - [15] curse/pilgrim win... falcon/rook cant kill ****, thus need to escape, thus loosing
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.16 14:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Proxyyyy Falcon tackles the pilgrim and jams it! The rook jams the curse and throws missiles at it till it gets the point! Caldari Rule Solo PVP!!! [Falcon, Falcon/Blaster] 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 10MN Afterburner II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x2 [Rook, Rook] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Signal Distortion Amplifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II ECM - White Noise Generator II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Sensor Booster II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II Warrior II x5 The above statements was ment to be a flame... Have you actually looked at Recon sensor strength, then made a guesstimate on the chance of getting a jam off while realising that both amarr recons are dronebased? ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.12.16 17:26:00 - [17] I have alot of confidence in myslef and my knowledge of game mechanics not to mention experience! Obviously the person who engages first will win in most cases. The pilgrim and curse would have to be able to cap me before i could activate my mods. Since i know that drones do not agro something that has agreesed before they are dropped! A curse and a pilgrim being drone boats doesnt mean much to me due to that fact. If recalled they wont be able to agro me, if not recalled it will be destroyed. If i didnt believe the falcon more than the rook could own a pilgrim and curse everytime i wouldnt make the above statments. But this is all talk untill i do it! So ill leave the speculation and or general belief that it "can never happen" to others! My goal will be 10 combine pilgrim and curse kills in a falcon. With a minimum of 5 losses to achieve the goal. I will have a better understanding of its viability by throwning it in other situitions that a blaster/falcon may or may not excel in...
Bomberlocks Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.16 18:06:00 - [18] The Rook will keep on firing HMs weather its capped out or not, and while 5xHMs don't do all that much damage to a fast moving Curse/Pilgrim they can't be stopped and if the curse has little tank then it could have to GTFO, but, as people have said here, that is better than getting pinned down and losing your wonderfully expensive ship.
Arthello Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.12.16 20:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Bomberlocks The Rook will keep on firing HMs weather its capped out or not, and while 5xHMs don't do all that much damage to a fast moving Curse/Pilgrim they can't be stopped and if the curse has little tank then it could have to GTFO, but, as people have said here, that is better than getting pinned down and losing your wonderfully expensive ship. Any sensible curse fit has in the area of plus/minus 25k eft hp shield buffer and goes anywhere between 1500-1900m/s. That's a lot of heavy missiles.
Aerin Cloudfayr the evil ones	Posted - 2009.12.17 06:55:00 - [20] 75km neut with double damp, double eccm and double drone control range mods, etc etc, your rook/falcon won't stick around. BOO! But if you actually want to fight it, have fun with a more vanilla setup dropping TDs for ECCMs, you're looking at a sensor strength of over 100 points lol... Not to mention staggered neuts plus some small neuts whittling down your cap down :)

Bablu Hassan Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.12.19 04:51:00 - [21] Multispecs??? really???????
Tagami Wasp Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.19 21:35:00 - [22] Rook does over 400 dps with capless weapons (HAMs), and has 20K EHP. Curse does 300 dps max (2x HMLs in high slots, 2x med neuts, 1x med NOS, cap injected) and has around 20K EHP as well. I would not stick around a Rook in a Curse with this in mind. Actually best thing about Curse, it can disengage easier than the Rook, because of higher speed it can reach. Kiting the Rook with drones and HMLS needs you to stay at 30+ KMs, meaning a faction point and hoping that the Rook pilot did not bring Javs (350+ dps out to 45 Km), he doesn't pay attention to his drones and fails to jam you (very probable because of sensor str). Btw, a set of Warrior IIs will chew up a Hammerhead II in no time.
Hoodat Bee	Posted - 2009.12.20 03:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Proxyyyy Falcon tackles the pilgrim and jams it! The rook jams the curse and throws missiles at it till it gets the point! Caldari Rule Solo PVP!!! [sni[] The above statements was ment to be a flame... Have you actually looked at Recon sensor strength, then made a guesstimate on the chance of getting a jam off while realising that both amarr recons are dronebased? Bolded the key element.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.20 03:26:00 - [24] Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 20/12/2009 03:27:39 It comes down to starting ranges - if its under 40km, the curse has every chance once the drones are out and the neuts are on. But if you see a curse within neut range its either run or die imo. As for counters, stay out of 40km range. ----
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.12.21 06:59:00 - [25] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/12/2009 06:59:46 If you are talking about regular fittings, the amarr recons will absolutely wipe the floor with the caldari ones in a 1v1 engagement, due to the fact their source of dps doesnt care about jams, a capdead falcon will not jam anything and so on. Everything else is pretty much academic, as for every Rook fit you make, someone will come by and say "but I fit this exact counter to your fit on my Curse and pwn you", useless discussion.
Aralieus Amarr Traumark Logistics H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.12.21 07:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/12/2009 06:59:46 If you are talking about regular fittings, the amarr recons will absolutely wipe the floor with the caldari ones in a 1v1 engagement, due to the fact their source of dps doesnt care about jams, a capdead falcon will not jam anything and so on. Everything else is pretty much academic, as for every Rook fit you make, someone will come by and say "but I fit this exact counter to your fit on my Curse and pwn you", useless discussion. I was under the impression thats what the OP was pertaining too, cookie cutter fit vs cookie cutter fit. The Pilgrim/Curse would win if thats the case. If thats not the case and both ships were explicitly set forth to engage one another then it still stands, Pilgrim/Curse would be the victor(s) just based of off the ability's of the ships. ECCM would nullify Rook/Falcon bonus with a already high sensor strenth. Just my 2 ISK Fortune favors the bold!!!
Cosmic Rainbow	Posted - 2009.12.22 22:02:00 - [27] Very simple answer to this question: Pick your targets wisely. its foolish to attack a Curse/Pilgrim with a Rook/Flacon, just as its silly to attack a Drake or similar passive tanked ship in a Curse. In a Recon its always important to pick your targets wisely, otherwise you end up in a pod. I would argue however that a Rook/Falcon has a wider range of application than a Curse/Pilgrim.


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