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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.17 23:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 17/12/2009 23:29:00 Drones have been broken for YEARS. they simply do not do what they are told. just want a fix. i know I'm wasting effort because hundreds have requested the same thing for years, and people will flame me for bring it up again, but I don't really care. I'm primarily a drone user in everything i do, PVP/PVE whatever. I'm simply tired of them not doing what they are told to do.
-Zoltar
edit: oh yeah, BTW, since I'm already here and wasting effort, I'll toss this in as well..
Quote: A defect that would sometimes keep all anomalies and exploration complexes in a system from despawning has been destroyed with extreme prejudice.
It's broken again.
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Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
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Posted - 2009.12.17 23:44:00 -
[2]
I'll jump on this one. Also, while you are "fixing" drones how about some meta drone modules as well as T2? The one Black Eagle (or whatever) module needs brothers and sisters.
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2009.12.17 23:51:00 -
[3]
Maybe instead of just whining about it you could describe the problem, if only there were a dedicated forum, or some sort of 'petition' system you could use instead of spamming here.
I've been using drone boats for years. I haven't had any problems with them, since I target something, right click my drone group and hit 'engage' and they go fight it. Pretty simple really.
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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zoltar Torzoid on 18/12/2009 00:04:39 ok, fine I'll describe the problem for you.
Lock target, Deploy Drones, engage drones, new (more important) target enters grid, Lock new Target, Engage Drones, observe drones engage new target, then immediately switch back to the previous target, Mash my "All Drones: Engage" hotkey repeatedly to force the drones to remain on new target because they refuse to stay on task.
now that that is done, please accept my sincere thanks for adding something helpful to this thread by calling me a whiner. You sir, are awesome.
-Zoltar
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Aralieus
Amarr Traumark Logistics
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:12:00 -
[5]
/signed
I want a entire new drone interface tbh. I'm tired of calling drones back and the nice tight little configuration I have in my drone panel gets all sloppy because the incoming drones decide to open up there name slot completley when I just had it minimized. Also why do some of them engage random targets when I specifically told them to 'Focus Fire' (did they get high together in drone bay). Also, when 'Aggressive' is selected why do they not agro something that has agressed me before they are dropped?? Bug? Because being aggressive is exactly that, aggressive. Kill anything that shoots at me regardless of when I drop you, and plz for the love of GOD, all shot at one target.
Fortune favors the bold!!! |
Lego Maniac
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:27:00 -
[6]
set your drones to passive and they do exactly what you tell them, no more and no less __________________________________________________________
˄ ____________ ˄ |
Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:35:00 -
[7]
And if you get jammed, they are useless. Why bother deploying them at all?
I know full well what passive does. That doesn't change the fact that they are broken, and have remained broken for years, and probably will remain broken for years more.
-Zoltar
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kukumakaka
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Posted - 2009.12.18 01:04:00 -
[8]
The only problem I have encountered with drones in PVE is that they sometimes split and attack different targets even though "Focus Fire" is selected. I've never noticed them auto-switch target, not sure if that's because I only use light and medium?
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Ryan Starwing
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Posted - 2009.12.18 01:30:00 -
[9]
Ya they did auto swich on me tonight and wont focus fire with focus fire on. Also when I got jammed by npc they didnt aggro with agressive on.
PS:It wasnt this bad before dominion for me.
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Neo Maximus
Gallente Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:00:00 -
[10]
I personally haven't had any major drone issues, and haven't really felt the "need" for higher drone intelligence like the suggestions you've listed.
One thing I think that would make the drone interface a little better is being able to set default groups. You put your drones you want in a folder and then right click it and "set default." You could then have little icons (similar to the "current item" commands) that could control your default group. One icon/button each for: deploy, attack, and return. I think this would be fairly easy to do and would make controlling your drones a bit easier to do.
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Zoltar Torzoid
Gallente Mercurialis Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:05:00 -
[11]
I don't want more advanced drone AI, I just want drone AI that works. lol If something shoots me, I want them to shoot back, if I tell them to shoot something else, I want them to shoot at what I say, if I'm jammed and can't give further orders, I want them to select targets on their own, it can be random, I don't care, they don't have to be smart, just obedient and hard working.
In my experience, sentry drones are worse than regular drones for swapping to whatever target they fancy at any given moment.
-Zoltar
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Lirielee
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:15:00 -
[12]
about interface it could be nice if when you expand a drone selection group that would be applied sepperatly from those in flight and those in bay.
Say i have 2 flight of drones(lets just say light and medium), really to not fill to much on my UI i'd preffer if i could have both light and medium "closed" when they are in bay, and expanded when they are out, instead of constantly having to swap it around whenever i change my drones around
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kukumakaka
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Neo Maximus You could then have little icons (similar to the "current item" commands) that could control your default group. One icon/button each for: deploy, attack, and return. I think this would be fairly easy to do and would make controlling your drones a bit easier to do.
I'm not sure if this will fit your play style, but I suggest you hot key attack/return and orbit/scope to drone bay, makes drone control a lot easier/faster in combat. I don't think it is possible to hot key deploy though, I realize that would be a little complex due to multiple drone group, but I think it's doable and definitely very useful.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:27:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Trader20 on 18/12/2009 02:32:09
Maybe a new Drone Module:
Drone Logic Module (Hi Slot) Ability to preset drone attack sequences.
Example that could be preset:
The drones would only attack hostiles.
Ogres II's BS are primary BC are secondary HAC are tertiary
Warrior II's Cepters are primary Assualt Ships are secondary T1 Frgis are tertiary
Also maybe the ability to make drones primary a certain ship (example domi) before it attacks any other ships. May seem overpowered so maybe make module have a really high cpu fitting and give drone boats a bonus to fit them. Bring on the age of AFK PvP
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Birdman Ravo
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Posted - 2009.12.18 02:43:00 -
[15]
/signed
Drone logic has always been really screwey, but tolerable given they followed your explicit instructions. This bug breaks the simple logic of drones following your explicit instructions.
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Karasuman
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Posted - 2009.12.18 04:35:00 -
[16]
It would also be REALLY nice to have an option to assign priority targets to your drones. Nothing makes me more then when my drones fly 30km out of their way to attack a frig after destroying 1 cruiser out of half a dozen.
For example, a simple list that you can manually arrange:
[Drone Priority Targeting] 1. Defense Tower 2. Cruiser 3. Battleship 4. Frig
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.18 04:38:00 -
[17]
It looks like the drones need another stern talking to...
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Cambarus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.18 05:43:00 -
[18]
There used to be a bug where drones would attack your gangmates. I also used to have a problem wherein I would be ratting/missioning/whatever (never happened in pvp since I paid closer attention to my drones) and I would, after a few minutes of droning down some NPCs, find that my drones had decided to shoot each other instead of what was shooting me.
You don't know how good you have it :P |
Chajitsoyo
Gallente Sanford Space Salvage
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Posted - 2009.12.18 05:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lego Maniac set your drones to passive and they do exactly what you tell them, no more and no less
Abra Cadabra, peanut butter and jelly SANDWITCHES!!
your drones are fixed!
The other problems mentioned regarding the drone interface fall into the category of: the UI for eve is garbage. ---------------------------------
Everything in moderation, including moderation. |
Jin Jemai
Tripod Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.12.18 06:02:00 -
[20]
Be glad they aren't as buggy as they were back during RMR. Any fiddling with them that CCP would do would probably just break them again considering CCP's recent track record.
If it's only somewhat broken, don't fix it?
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2009.12.18 07:03:00 -
[21]
I think I have a new prayer for GOD ^^
honestly, after 6 years I just see it as one of the added challenges that comes with being a drone user All the above is prolly crap
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Studley Goodfk
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Posted - 2009.12.18 10:17:00 -
[22]
Any chance of having repping drones that rep yourself?
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.18 10:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid
ok, fine I'll describe the problem for you.
Lock target, Deploy Drones, engage drones, new (more important) target enters grid, Lock new Target, Engage Drones, observe drones engage new target, then immediately switch back to the previous target, Mash my "All Drones: Engage" hotkey repeatedly to force the drones to remain on new target because they refuse to stay on task.
now that that is done, please accept my sincere thanks for adding something helpful to this thread by calling me a whiner. You sir, are awesome.
-Zoltar
To be fair, you are whining without explaining what problem you are experiencing. It's fairly ironic that you then offer a sarcastic criticism for the lack of his input to your thread compared to the detail you provided in your OP.
That aside, yes when drones are set to Agressive, they will sometimes go after the target of their choice even after you specify one. However controlling this is easy... if they switch to another target, order them to attack the desired target again.
Sometimes the drones will switch back to their preferred target after about 2-3 seconds. All you need to do is simply order them to attack your target again and they stick. It's not hard unless you are afk *cough*
Alternatively, set them to passive... but then I guess that means you cannot afk the mission in your Domi or Ishtar eh? Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Kaian Voskhod
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Posted - 2009.12.18 11:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kaian Voskhod on 18/12/2009 11:35:11 Ability to create a drone icon in my module activation bar.
-> press F1 or click on the "fake" module = deploy drones and engage target
Just like a turret...
Righ clicking on the "fake" module, like a missile launcher (again =), allow you to -> Change the drone type. If drones are already in space, they return to your drone bay, drones are changed and ready to be launched. -> deploy drones -> order the drones to return and orbit -> order the drones to return to drone bay -> and the standard options (behaviour, focus fire etc.)
Well, i would like to use my drones as if it was a high slot weapon... No game balance changes, no-non sense... just UI improvement.
Well, i would like to see some drone upgrades mod... But i fear it would be unbalanced.
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Loxatl Deathsquad
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Posted - 2009.12.18 12:03:00 -
[25]
Dont know dude, im not having any drone control issues in my Gallente ships! They are always attacking what i want them to attack, and moving how i want them to.
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Lady Australia
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Posted - 2009.12.18 12:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Lady Australia on 18/12/2009 12:17:17
Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid I don't want more advanced drone AI, I just want drone AI that works. lol If something shoots me, I want them to shoot back, if I tell them to shoot something else, I want them to shoot at what I say, if I'm jammed and can't give further orders, I want them to select targets on their own, it can be random, I don't care, they don't have to be smart, just obedient and hard working.
In my experience, sentry drones are worse than regular drones for swapping to whatever target they fancy at any given moment.
-Zoltar
I dont agree with this. What your essentially saying (typical scenerio) is that if you are in pvp combat in an ishtar or a domi and you are jammed by a falcon that your primary weapon system should be able to continue on in the fight? that sounds a bit unbalanced for me, considering that you are really talking about ratting in guristas space where the npc's jam you. amarr space have to deal with neuting, gallente space with tracking disrupt/damp etc. ecm is useless enough without making it useless against gallente droneboats altogether
the interface does suck and really the "engage" "return" etc commands should have a specific button similar to the broadcast window of a fleet rather than setting hotkeys or right clicking the drone window all the time.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid
Lock target, Deploy Drones, engage drones, new (more important) target enters grid, Lock new Target, Engage Drones, observe drones engage new target, then immediately switch back to the previous target, Mash my "All Drones: Engage" hotkey repeatedly to force the drones to remain on new target because they refuse to stay on task.
Hmm, I dont have that problem here, maybe its an issue with your drone settings?
I usually dont even need to set drones on a new target once the current one is destroyed, since they seem to attack whatever I'm shooting with my guns, unless I've specifically set them to a different target.
Switching targets works fine for me as well, maybe settings error or you are fighting in very laggy environment?
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fogbird
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:54:00 -
[28]
no argument here, the opposite in fact:
drones not switching targets, when i tell them to, is driving me up the walls! sitting in front of the pc, screaming and calling the little f***ers names always makes me feel strange for even talking to them.
and yes, "FOCUS YOUR FIRE YOU DANM LITTLE CRITTERS!"
uhh, who am i talking to?
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Kenz Rider
Tesserae
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:13:00 -
[29]
How about a drone damage mod?!
And more hit points while they are at it.
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Sarcozi
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:59:00 -
[30]
I just wish that when you do deploy drones that the GUI would expand properly so you could see any damage happening, the amount of times I've lost drones from not watching their damage begs belief
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Tama Kulai
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Posted - 2009.12.18 22:55:00 -
[31]
As a newer pilot who is skilling heavily in drones I thought that I would make some suggestions; from my humble viewpoint, of course.
1. I like the idea of a new interface. Something small which can sit in the corner of the screen would be great. It could have command keys similar to the new scanning interface. For example, button a) Deploys (pre-selected) drones. b) Engage current target c) Recall active Drones etc.
The current system is, in my opinion, somewhat long winded. Those little boxes to click through, with the chance of minimizing the blasted thing in the heat of the moment, can be frustrating. Like the OP, my goal is to use drones as a primary weapon. I would hope that, in time, attacking with drones would become as fast as my enemy can fire his lasers, missiles, etc.
I am not asking for them to be buffed, as I am a young capsuleer, and I would like to find out their strengths and weaknesses in my own time. I hope the time I invest in drones is well spent down the line.
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Excessum Addo
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.19 00:17:00 -
[32]
This has been a problem with drones for a long while, I remembered a thread I read a while ago, someone called it an ode to joe, I think this sums it up lol
Joe the drone
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.19 08:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Seriously Bored It looks like the drones need another stern talking to...
I cannot teach these kiiiiidddddddddddddddssssssssssss!!
Yeah they always go buggy after a patch, the logic data is clearly not segregated or polished[see my Assembly Hall post on Drones fixes, UI, logic, Modules missing]
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Alina Zalo
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Posted - 2009.12.19 09:51:00 -
[34]
Well i havn't had a chance to sit down and play since the patch. but mostly i never have problems with them, but yes they doesn't always focus, and sometimes they do switch, mainly sentrys do it
But what REALLY bugs me. is that the Graphics and sounds for them dont always work.
Every tried to see the shot from a Garde II ??? i mean most of the sentries dont have effects you can see.
the sound cuts in and out in most missions...
and what kills me about all this... is the fact, that before, sounds used to work great (years ago) drone effects were very visible and nice looking.
what broke all the sounds i dont know... but i miss being able to hear what was going on without sudden silince, or sudden super loud turrets
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.12.19 09:55:00 -
[35]
Smartbomb the little bastards. It won't help the situation. It won't fix anything. But watching the diobdient little fecks explode always lifts the mood they've put me in.
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its seriousbusiness
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Posted - 2009.12.19 14:38:00 -
[36]
While you're at it. Please include Damage done by your drones to the combat log. Many thanks.
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Dschay
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Posted - 2009.12.19 15:36:00 -
[37]
Another really annoying "feature" is when you recall your drones and one of them, most of the time the one which is under attack, decides that it's much cooler to slowboat back to ship instead of using it's MWD.
It would be also incredibly excellent to be able to reconnect the drones after a disconnect. It's so great to be warped back into the combat zone just to watch your primary weapons being killed without a chance to help them. OR if this is an intended feature, normal ships should lose a turret or launcher each time they disconnect. ;)
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.12.19 16:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Lusulpher
Originally by: Seriously Bored It looks like the drones need another stern talking to...
I cannot teach these kiiiiidddddddddddddddssssssssssss!!
Yeah they always go buggy after a patch, the logic data is clearly not segregated or polished[see my Assembly Hall post on Drones fixes, UI, logic, Modules missing]
Space ritalin?
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Aionstar
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Posted - 2009.12.19 17:01:00 -
[39]
drones = gallente (already boosted by NewShineFunnyShuttle) ...so no, no fix for drones
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.20 17:48:00 -
[40]
Put drone, attack, redock, and orbit on hotkeys. I use cntrl F9-F12.
Hit the button repeatedly to do anything.
Problem solved. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.12.20 23:48:00 -
[41]
The docked/launched drone interface could use some work. Generally I always want to see the drones that are launched and I almost never want to see the drone groups expanded that aren't launched. This is partially because the un-launched drones give you almost no information. You can't tell which ones are injured, you can't rely on the drone order as it appears to randomly change (i.e. launching the first half of a group, recalling, then the second half you can end up with the same drones out in space each time.)
The drones splitting their aggro is annoying too, it'd be nice if they got a talking to about that.
Drones flying off and attacking ships that aren't aggroed to you rather than the ones that are shooting you is a bit annoying. How about if you have ships targeted then they pick one of those as their new target?
I appreciate that drones like to pick space daisies but when they're launched and set to aggressive could they stop their horticultural passtime and shoot back at what is actually blowing me up?
Lack of drone modules is a bit sad too, and the determination of CCP to keep introducing new, much more expensive, drones that don't do more damage is a little sad. It's not like drone boats are topping the damage meters. And let's not even talk about sleeper AI loving to hug drones.
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MoeJoe Green
Gallente The Black Legionnares Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.21 00:29:00 -
[42]
Also the extremely annoying two things about drones:
1: target 1 is getting engaged target 2 is 55km away, target is 2 km away. Drones go for target 2 once target 1 is dead :/
2: Hammerhead II's reach the target then switch off the MWD to orbit, but the target is still burning away, so they turn on the MWD again to reach the target, then start to orbit and turn it off. rinse and repeat.
Your nerfed my Myrm CCP, can You atleast fix my little ******ed babies?
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Msgerbs
Gallente Imperial Assualt Guild Raikiri Assasins
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Posted - 2009.12.21 05:38:00 -
[43]
I once went AFK for a few minutes in my exequror providing mining bonus and remote reps to a retreiver in my corp with drones out for defense, come back to find another corp mate shooting my drones because SOMEHOW my drones decided to attack the target I was repping and the target had left rep range (fail on his part tbh). This left much head-scratching around the ops table for days.
TL;DR: Drones = lolwut PS: This is not part of my signature
------ C&P wannabe
WTB 5 minutes |
Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.12.21 12:59:00 -
[44]
Drones are fine, sort of. At least since I hotkeyed the most important commands. I'm used to spam ctrl-s anyway :p
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Triss S'Jet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.21 14:13:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Triss S''Jet on 21/12/2009 14:14:26 To the op... get over it and buy yourself this: Linkage With "Engage motherf*****s engage!" on the button.
Should help.
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Binding Dark
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Posted - 2009.12.21 20:45:00 -
[46]
Me just signed this thread in the futile hope that ccp might one day pay attention to the actual wishes of thos of us who pay to play the game !
Bring on some long overdue Drone mods !
Come on ccp , if you put this game out there for people to pay to play then the least you might be able to do is at least aknowledge the wishes of the poeple even if you dont impliment them !
ps , sorry for the SP , the damn whisky kicking in as I be a miner !!
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Binding Dark
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Posted - 2009.12.21 20:51:00 -
[47]
Also , i wish to propose a new button to the drone UI :
sort of self destruct for all your drones that are getting on your ti/ts
"I've had it with these Mother**cking Dones on this Mother**cking Ship !!!!"
Bit of a lol , but with a undercurrent of Grrr towards the AI of drones at times !
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2009.12.22 16:02:00 -
[48]
I like the idea of a drone logic module - or even better allowing us to create simple attack programs for drones to make them more useful.
Something like a little AI flow chart with various nodes, target types and decision nodes, the ability to load and save attack programs (like the fitting window)
It's probably all in there already, it would just take a bit of UI work to expose it.
.. or maybe a complete rewrite. who knows.
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Joe Astor
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Posted - 2009.12.25 07:33:00 -
[49]
I find that sometimes if I have them on Aggressive, and I come under fire from NPC rats, the drones just idle until I command them to attack.
Sometimes they attack on their own, sometimes I need to tell them to attack
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its seriousbusiness
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Posted - 2009.12.25 15:47:00 -
[50]
seriously.. does anybody knows why dronedamage doesn't show up on the combat log? Is there a reason? Or is it possible that i just missed a settings option?
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HIghlord Diamond
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:05:00 -
[51]
You people don't get it. The drones just want to go rogue!
On a more serious note, I'm in for the Drone UI revamp. Can I get a button that says : Deploy 'Insert drone model of your choice'?
Example : Your are fitting some rat frigs with your scout drones, a player battleship warps in and you know you could blast him to pieces with your heavies so you recall the scouts, then SELECT HEAVIES ONE BY ONE WITH CONTROL + LEFT CLICK deploy and attack. Why not simply have something like " Right click drone bay, deploy Wasps II and then you deploy as many Wasp II as your skills and modules and various bonuses allow up to all the wasp II you actually have in there. take only a second for someone with a little practice to do this and let's you some time to monitor and control your tank, the distance from the enemy, possible ways of escape etc. Drone users have this increased difficulty of having to deal with bad controls, while managing lasers is as simple as maintaining a good range and pressing a F key and switching crystals (which is even simpler than other weapons like projectile and hybrids because you don't waste 10 secs reloading and switching ammo)
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its seriousbusiness
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Posted - 2009.12.26 08:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: HIghlord Diamond You people don't get it. The drones just want to go rogue!
On a more serious note, I'm in for the Drone UI revamp. Can I get a button that says : Deploy 'Insert drone model of your choice'?
Example : Your are fitting some rat frigs with your scout drones, a player battleship warps in and you know you could blast him to pieces with your heavies so you recall the scouts, then SELECT HEAVIES ONE BY ONE WITH CONTROL + LEFT CLICK deploy and attack. Why not simply have something like " Right click drone bay, deploy Wasps II and then you deploy as many Wasp II as your skills and modules and various bonuses allow up to all the wasp II you actually have in there.
Dude.. That is already implemented.. Just move all your drones to respective groups. Mark all your heavy wasps and rightclick on them - then make new group - namme it - than you can deploy the whole group instead....
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.26 09:49:00 -
[53]
Drones are broken as intended. Drones are working as intended.
Before Focus Fire, Aggressive and Passive settings were available drones worked. They fired in focused fashion unless told to do otherwise. They were always on agressive and did not stray from one target to the next. You didn't need to be locked on the target because the drones had/have their own lock mechanism and must be jammed independent of each other and their mother ship. Lose lock? The drones didn't. If you didn't have a lock and your drones were out and you were attacked......drones responded. They still do under the aggressive setting, but then you have the noted problems. Drones also had their shields fully replenished by a quick dip inside the mother ship, much as ships do when going inside a station. Additionally, bandwidth came to town and ruined a number of drone boats when it did.
CCP changed the drones. Broke them. Indications are this was done intentionally and thus there is no intent to "fix" them. CCP just hasn't gotten around to telling the subscribers in plain english. As far as CCP responding to the people that pay them? The subscribers? They are. Just not the drone users.
Windjammer
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Xiang Jiao
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Posted - 2009.12.26 10:10:00 -
[54]
I'm all for a simpler, more intuitive drone interface, and more drone modules, especially damage modules.
Has any one else noticed a return of the disappearing drone window? Every once in a while after session change, the drone bay jumps underneath the selected items, which for me hides it under the overview. It does this even though my windows are pinned. It's not as bad as it was before (post Trinity?), but still makes me growl in contempt.
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