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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.21 07:56:00 -
[1]
My work is my life, and my life is my work. I invented this assault rifle to defend my country. Today, I am proud that it has become for many synonymous with liberty.
~ Mikhail Kalashnikov
Recently Mikhail Kalashnikov, the man who designed the AK-47 (Avtomat Kalashnikova model 1947) assault rifle, celebrated his 90th birthday. Though already feted in his Russian homeland as an officially approved hero at three previous events, President Dmitry Medvedev christened him yet again to honor the occasion, this time as a "Hero of the Russian Federation." That was on November 10, 2009 and America for the most part completely ignored the festivities, as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was released the same day.
Incidentally, the AK-47 is a prominent weapon in that game, just as it is around the world. President Medvedev lauded Mr. KalashnikovÆs AK-47 as "the brand every Russian is proud of" and they should be. Designated the Red ArmyÆs primary infantry weapon in 1949, it has gone on to be mass produced everywhere and anywhere by everybody, the Russian communists not believing in such things as copyrights or patents. So, unlike AmericaÆs Winchester family who became fabulously wealthy (and insane) by inventing the repeating rifle, Mr. Kalashnikov gets a small government pension, the occasional medal, and nothing else for all that his efforts produced.
While the US industrial-military complex may get to play with an annual budget which exceeds the rest of the globe combined, they have yet to create a weapon even near the genius of the AK-47. It is so reliable that you can literally drop it in the mud, step on it, pick it up, and fire at will. (Try that with an M-16.) Drop it into a river, fish it off the bottom, and sheÆll fire just fine. US and British special forces fighting in the inhospitable badlands of Central Asia are big fans. Combine this amazing reliability with its incredibly cheap production costs and you have the Honda of assault rifles; more of the AK-47 variants have been produced than every other assault rifle combined.
Noting studies that found most rifle combat takes place within close proximity, the rifle has a maximum range of about 300 meters, or 3 1/3 football fields, yet when it comes to being able to hit anything 100 yards is more like it. Since the overwhelming majority of humans are poor shots, semiautomatic or automatic variants are available for your consideration. Six hundred rounds a minute can be placed onto target, but youÆd need to be a ridiculously fast loader to reach that number as the curved magazine holds only 30 rounds. 100 to 400 rounds a minute is more realistic, and still plenty. Some versions come with a wooden stock, some with a metal stock which may be folded down for storage; the latter variant is used by mechanized and airborne troops.
Firing a 7.62mm round that can either shred you (if it tumbles when it strikes your body) or leave a nice clean hole (if it passes right through) that can be patched up in a jiffy, the selective fire, gas-operated rifle is so cheap to mass produce and maintain that over 50 armies the world over use it as their chief infantry weapon. Since this leaves a lot of these things laying about, with plenty of ammunition to boot, itÆs the preferred weapon of choice for terrorists, Mafia, drug dealers, assorted dictators, and other unsavory types. This fact gives it a rather negative reputation in American eyes; any Hollywood production with a villain almost invariably arms him with an AK-47, never with the M-16, our militaryÆs preferred rifle.
Read the rest.
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.21 08:55:00 -
[2]
Honestly I'd take an M14 over an AK any day. Had experience with both in Afghanistan and I'd take the harder hitting and more accurate 7.62x51mm over the 7.62x39mm. Reliability is great on the AK but almost all the engagements I was in happened at ranges of over 400 meters.
Originally by: a51 duke1406 The girls just dont understand that sunday is pvp night, not cuddle on the couch watching tv night.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.21 09:24:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 21/12/2009 09:27:06
Originally by: Intense Thinker Honestly I'd take an M14 over an AK any day. Had experience with both in Afghanistan and I'd take the harder hitting and more accurate 7.62x51mm over the 7.62x39mm. Reliability is great on the AK but almost all the engagements I was in happened at ranges of over 400 meters.
Indeed that sounds like Afghanistan. I heard that early on the soldiers there were begging for the M14/M1A platform as the M4 was kind of falling short (no pun intended). Once an Army guy was at the rifle range I train at and told us about how he was trying to get permission to attain his own M1A, a Springfield, but had to get permission from the Captain. The Captain was from New Jersey, one of those "peoples republic" states where all guns are bad and nobody is allowed to have them. The Captain said "those are illegal!". What a dipwad.
On the flip side I trained with a fellow who was in Afghanistan in the 80s and he will tell you that the SKS/AK platform can be as effective as an M1 Garand in the MOUT environment. The calibers being close and the ballistics at closer ranges are comparable.
There is a rifle that takes the best of the AK and the accuracy and magazines of the AR/M4 system and combines them. The Sig 556 and variants. I took one apart a while ago and it has a gas system like an AK as expected but the bolt carrier and bolt are almost identical to an AK. Yet it shoots the 556 and uses the AR magazines. It can shoot a 62gr good to 900 meters (I have yet to actually see that).
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.21 09:33:00 -
[4]
Don't get me wrong, the AK is the perfect warrior's weapon and is the world's most produced rifle for that reason but when it comes down to "the best" you really can't name 1 rifle. On paper and in the field are too far apart
That being said, the best rifle is the main gun on a tank
Originally by: a51 duke1406 The girls just dont understand that sunday is pvp night, not cuddle on the couch watching tv night.
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2009.12.21 09:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sazkyen on 21/12/2009 09:43:14
Everyone knows the best assault weapon is the SA80.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.12.21 10:27:00 -
[6]
Quote: Noting studies that found most rifle combat takes place within close proximity, the rifle has a maximum range of about 300 meters, or 3 1/3 football fields, yet when it comes to being able to hit anything 100 yards is more like it. Since the overwhelming majority of humans are poor shots, semiautomatic or automatic variants are available for your consideration. Six hundred rounds a minute can be placed onto target, but youÆd need to be a ridiculously fast loader to reach that number as the curved magazine holds only 30 rounds. 100 to 400 rounds a minute is more realistic, and still plenty.
Maybe they're such poor shots because they use auto-fire
Honestly, above 5m, okay okay, maybe 15-25m, auto fire on an AK is useless, unless you just want to hear the bangs, or others to hear them .
Granted my experience is with the Finnish variants (Rk 62 and 95), but they're certainly not of worse quality then others, those in the know tend to say the opposite in fact.
Easy to hit moving targets at 150m imo, with good ol' iron sights , and not too difficult to get a decent amount of hits at 300m either. Even for a conscript "playing at soldier" like I was. It's been a while, but I don't think we ever tried longer range targets with assault rifles.
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victortwosix
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Posted - 2009.12.21 10:45:00 -
[7]
I personally would never brag about the Honda of rifles as you say. But before you judge the american industrial complex you have to consider which rifle is so mass produced and used by insurgents, pirates, gang members, etc. All the people who are dropping a proverbial duece on the idea of peace and equality.
And as for the effectiveness of an american weapon, look up the AA12 Hammer or the Barret 50 on youtube and tell me how inferior the great american devil is then.
I agree that Mikhail Kalishnikov deserves his dues, but dont hold it against all of america because they dont share that same point of view!
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Haxfar Portlaind
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Posted - 2009.12.21 10:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 21/12/2009 09:27:06
On the flip side I trained with a fellow who was in Afghanistan in the 80s and he will tell you that the SKS/AK platform can be as effective as an M1 Garand in the MOUT environment. The calibers being close and the ballistics at closer ranges are comparable.
Arghh! that's awful to hear The M1 Garand fires a 30.06 springfield, the Ak-47 a 7.62x39mm. While the bullet itself might have the same diameter, the cartridge of the 30.06 is 63mm, meaning that it can hold much more gunpowder, which again, means it can pack a bigger punch and shoot further, at the expense of higher recoil.
And now some fun facts: Both the 5.56x45mm NATO and the .50 BMG (not to be confused with the russian .50) have the same proportion as the 30.06.
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Rolk Anderson
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Posted - 2009.12.21 10:57:00 -
[9]
Its amazing just how many people can be killed on a shoe string budget
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.21 11:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rolk Anderson Its amazing just how many people can be killed on a shoe string budget
And if you run out of budget you can still kill people with the shoe string
Originally by: a51 duke1406 The girls just dont understand that sunday is pvp night, not cuddle on the couch watching tv night.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2009.12.21 12:35:00 -
[11]
Well I'm glad Mikhail is still alive. Stoner apparently is not.
I've used an M-1 Garand, M-14, and an M-16.
For semi auto fire I prefer the M-1. The damn thing will shoot a mile with no problem.
Between the 14 and the 16 I liked the 14 a lot better but it was a lot heavier. The thing is ... it was heavier because it was a more substantial weapon. The magazines on the M-16 were made of aluminum and weren't all the same size ... so it has a magazine adjustment to let you fit in the different sizes. I remember once I had a fat magazine and a thin one, though I didn't know I had the thin one yet ... I couldn't get the fat magazine in so I had to adjust the size outward. Then when I put the thin one in and let go the bolt it knocked that thin magazine right out of the weapon ... I was not happy. Fortunately that was in training, not combat ...
The change from having an automatic selection to 3 shot burst was asinine. Yes, you are supposed to fire in three round bursts - but that's a training issue. Typically for the American Army (I was a Marine) they dumbed down the weapon to make up for **** poor training. The end result? When some soldier has the weapon set on 3 round burst and wants to spray a lot of lead (figuratively ... the lead being gone now ...) he jerks the hell out of the weapon trying to shoot as fast as he can ... so his accuracy goes straight to hell ...
Eh ... the American Military has had a long tradition of saddling their soldiers with inferior weaponry because some bean counter was making the decisions ...
That said, the latest version of the M-16, is a lot better than it was. Better barrel for one thing. Better bullet too. It's also adopted a modular approach that lets you really customize the weapon.
Over all, the current M-16 is probably a better weapon than the most widely distributed versions of the AK-47. The bit about working when it's been dropped in mud is over done. If you get mud down the barrel - you're going to blow up the weapon when you fire it no matter which one it is. Which is one of the reasons you try and keep your weapon clean. At least the current version of the M-16 will function as intended when it's user has maintained it as they were trained ...
If you have properly trained personnel - then they know how to keep their weapons clean. If you have untrained personnel - then yeah a weapon that requires less attention could be beneficial.
As to the ammunition - the 7.62 Warsaw Pact round is heavier than the 5.56 NATO so you can carry more of them - which was a lot more important back when the M-16 had a fully automatic mode ...
The M-16 because of it's flimsier construction - is a lighter weapon. So that's just that much more ammo you can haul around and it makes the weapon easier to manage.
Both are also very popular through out the world. Due to it's rugged reputation and cheap manufacture the AK is more popular with people who have less money but there's a hell of a lot of both of them out there.
All in all, the AK probably isn't as good as it's cracked up to be and the M-16 isn't as bad. The training of the person using it counts for a lot more. Both function effectively in their designed roles. Both are assault rifles so both lack range but I wouldn't want to be shot with either one of them.
Between the two of them - I'd rather have an M-14. And ... OBTW ... like the AK being dropped in mud ... the difficulty of firing an M-14 on full auto (which the M-14 at least still has ...) is exaggerated.
Yes. I'd want my M-14 and my M1911A1 Colt .45 as well!
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.12.21 13:31:00 -
[12]
You forgot to add that the AK-47 made it onto Mozambiques flag.
Delenda est achura. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente Honour Before Death Nominis Expers
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Posted - 2009.12.21 13:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sazkyen Edited by: Sazkyen on 21/12/2009 09:43:14
Everyone knows the best assault weapon is the SA80.
Which is why we gave it to the Germans to let them fix it.
Originally by: Wendat Huron You forgot to add that the AK-47 made it onto Mozambiques flag.
Hezbollah too, and the Zimbabwean Coat of Arms.
Welcome to the AK-101 & 105 as standard service too.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.12.21 13:45:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Grimpak on 21/12/2009 13:47:29 ooohhh... this is turning into an AKvsAR argument.
let me add fire to it:
best rifle in the world is the Mosin-Nagant.
end of.
edit: here's something for ye:
Mosin-Nagant vs AK vs AR ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.12.21 13:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Grimpak ooohhh... this is turning into an AKvsAR argument.
let me add fire to it:
best rifle in the world is the Mosin-Nagant.
end of.
I thought it was the rifle the janissaries used to kill off the Byzantine Empire with, if we're going into the arcane.
Delenda est achura. |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.12.21 13:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: Grimpak ooohhh... this is turning into an AKvsAR argument.
let me add fire to it:
best rifle in the world is the Mosin-Nagant.
end of.
I thought it was the rifle the janissaries used to kill off the Byzantine Empire with, if we're going into the arcane.
yes it was.
and it was used in WW1 and 2 and cold war and vietnam and afganistan and desert storm and afganistan and iraq invasion, yet again.
as it is on the URL I posted, the Mosin has a service life of over 100 years and counting.
and if fought against itself and won every time. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
The Wicked1
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Posted - 2009.12.21 14:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: victortwosix .....All the people who are dropping a proverbial duece on the idea of peace and equality.....
And America is all about peace and equality? Believe the media much?
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MaxxOmega
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2009.12.21 14:59:00 -
[18]
All those weapons sound cool...
But I can really shoot my mouth off if I have to...
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Crimsonjade
Phantom Squad Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.21 15:00:00 -
[19]
tbh the rifle's usefulness is determined by the Soldier who is using it. You can argue over stats all day. and class room stats matter little in the field. its why the Ak is well loved all over the world. its simple design that is truly able to live with dirt and grime. AR is much improved overs its life, its a more complex weapon for a more complex military. The AK on the other hand can be used by anyone with very little arms training.
You want a really good rifle the mosin -nagant is great. The Swedish Mauser is a Real nice one too. My Favorite as a collector is my SVT-40, The Ak's predessor, kicks like a mule to and just a pretty well made rifle.
FREE MONGO PECK CCP |
Cikulisuy
Amarr The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.21 15:26:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cikulisuy on 21/12/2009 15:27:36 Edited by: Cikulisuy on 21/12/2009 15:26:45
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: Grimpak ooohhh... this is turning into an AKvsAR argument.
let me add fire to it:
best rifle in the world is the Mosin-Nagant.
end of.
I thought it was the rifle the janissaries used to kill off the Byzantine Empire with, if we're going into the arcane.
and it was used in WW1 and 2 and cold war and vietnam and afganistan and desert storm and afganistan and iraq invasion, yet again.
as it is on the URL I posted, the Mosin has a service life of over 100 years and counting.
and if fought against itself and won every time.
i have one sitting next to me, beautiful thing, if a bit worn. its as old as WWII and was probably actually used and then put in a crate after the war. me and my brother take it down to the local range. it knocks the targets off the stands even if it misses :P i keep worrying the barrel is going to explode, but it hasn't (yet)
edit: jesus christ i am terrible at posting nub> you cant mine so you kill. |
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.12.21 15:46:00 -
[21]
+1 for Mosin Nagant _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Lt Forge
Pilots From Honour Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.12.21 16:39:00 -
[22]
GN P90
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.12.21 16:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cikulisuy i keep worrying the barrel is going to explode, but it hasn't (yet)
you'll need a shoulder reconstruction faster than a face reconstruction tbh ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Zeredek
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Posted - 2009.12.21 16:50:00 -
[24]
Best gun _________________ rawr |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.22 08:26:00 -
[25]
If I see one more AK versus AR debate I am going to be using a shovel.
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The Wicked1
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Posted - 2009.12.22 08:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer If I see one more AK versus AR debate I am going to be using a shovel.
How about an Equalizer?
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.22 11:37:00 -
[27]
Everyone who plays terrorist on CS:S will ditch their AK for an M4 the first chance they get.
In all seriousness though, it isn't all that good at all. Not nearly as reliable as people make out (I certainly wouldn't want to curl one out in the breech, give it a quick shake and take it on the range, one way or two way). Innaccurate, really not that good of a round... What it is though is a sort of grown up Fisher Price 'My First Rifle' which people with little training/intelligence/discipline can get to grips with and use reasonably well reasonably quickly. They did the whole AR vs AK debate on some docu a few years ago and some ex Green Beret type summed it up best. 'If I had a day to train someone on any rifle it would be the AK. If I had a week to train someone on any rifle it would be an AR.'
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.12.22 13:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Everyone who plays terrorist on CS:S will ditch their AK for an M4 the first chance they get.
In all seriousness though, it isn't all that good at all. Not nearly as reliable as people make out (I certainly wouldn't want to curl one out in the breech, give it a quick shake and take it on the range, one way or two way). Innaccurate, really not that good of a round... What it is though is a sort of grown up Fisher Price 'My First Rifle' which people with little training/intelligence/discipline can get to grips with and use reasonably well reasonably quickly. They did the whole AR vs AK debate on some docu a few years ago and some ex Green Beret type summed it up best. 'If I had a day to train someone on any rifle it would be the AK. If I had a week to train someone on any rifle it would be an AR.'
and then I would snipe them from 2 countries over with my Mosin.
with a single bullet.
the second guy would die due to the shockwave of the bullet hitting the first one.
nah not really ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente Honour Before Death Nominis Expers
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Posted - 2009.12.22 14:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Everyone who plays terrorist on CS:S will ditch their AK for an M4 the first chance they get.
In all seriousness though, it isn't all that good at all. Not nearly as reliable as people make out (I certainly wouldn't want to curl one out in the breech, give it a quick shake and take it on the range, one way or two way). Innaccurate, really not that good of a round... What it is though is a sort of grown up Fisher Price 'My First Rifle' which people with little training/intelligence/discipline can get to grips with and use reasonably well reasonably quickly. They did the whole AR vs AK debate on some docu a few years ago and some ex Green Beret type summed it up best. 'If I had a day to train someone on any rifle it would be the AK. If I had a week to train someone on any rifle it would be an AR.'
One was designed in 1946, the other '57. So yeah, only 11 years of a gap between them.
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nahtoh
Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Antaeus Combine
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Posted - 2009.12.22 15:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sazkyen Edited by: Sazkyen on 21/12/2009 09:43:14
Everyone knows the best assault weapon is the SA80.
Hated that fecking thing...What nimrod thought a button on the base of the mag was a good idea? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
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