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change "abaddon wrecks" in "claim wrecks"

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.21 10:51:00 - [1] invert the logics please. Make wrecks FFA per default and give the wrecker the option to claim them. Current logics arent used by anyone who simply does not care. If one care about wrecks and their content, he/she should claim it actively not by default. Hating flying through belts full of wrecks not being able to tractor them.
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.21 20:25:00 - [2] well in order for this to be "fair" there would need to be one more thing. current options are: abandon wreck, abandon nearby wrecks. options would change to: claim wreck, claim nearby wrecks, and toggle on/off auto-claim. i added the toggle because people are going to be really ****ed if they have to claim each wreck as it is created to prevent some speedy ganker from picking up the loot. if this were the case then i say... /signed "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
Reggie Stoneloader Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.21 22:35:00 - [3] So I can sit cloaked near a field of wrecks, wait for someone to get close to one, and then "claim it" just as they loot? ====================== Crusades: Security Status
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.12.21 23:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Robert Caldera Hating flying through belts full of wrecks not being able to tractor them. Consider that your payment to get the items. You didn't have to shoot and waste ammo or time so why not make you have to actually travel to get the items? ------------------------------------
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.22 00:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader So I can sit cloaked near a field of wrecks, wait for someone to get close to one, and then "claim it" just as they loot? excellent point. i believe Reggie here just pointed out exactly why the system doesn't work the way you want it to: tricking people into becoming red flagged. so instead they should just allow people to have an option in their game settings to auto-abandon wrecks, and upon introduction of this option have it already set to auto-abandon. people who care will go change the option. "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.22 09:54:00 - [6] no, just allow only people to claim the wrecks, who is today their permanent owner. I am against a toggle, because people would always set it to auto-claim due to their lazyness, which would be the same we have today. And no claim all nearby wrecks as well for the same reason.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.12.22 10:08:00 - [7] Edited by: CCP Incognito on 22/12/2009 10:10:00 Originally by: Robert Caldera no, just allow only people to claim the wrecks, who is today their permanent owner. I am against a toggle, because people would always set it to auto-claim due to their lazyness, which would be the same we have today. And no claim all nearby wrecks as well for the same reason. I did the "Abandon Wreck" and as one poster put it the "claim wreck" is to easily exploited to grief players. If there is someone mining in a system ask them to abandon all the wrecks. It is not a crime to talk to other players :) Just because a lot of wrecks are not abandoned doesn't mean the owner isn't off getting his salvage ship. The salvage has always been intended to be a FFA situation, you just can't tractor wrecks you don't own, so you have to work for it. ----- I am a programmer, not a designer, all design comments are just speculation and have no grounding in fact!

Callista Sincera Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.22 10:40:00 - [8] Edited by: Callista Sincera on 22/12/2009 10:41:42 Originally by: Robert Caldera no, just allow only people to claim the wrecks, who is today their permanent owner. I am against a toggle, because people would always set it to auto-claim due to their lazyness, which would be the same we have today. And no claim all nearby wrecks as well for the same reason. So let me get this straight, you want the "lazy" missionrunner to flag every single wreck manually before some salvage guy warps in and loots+salvages them all (possibly while the runner is stilly busy shooting things), when you on the other hand are too lazy to fly to the wrecks to salvage them? Dude, don't use "lazy" when you aren't any different or in this case even worse. What you ask for is a tool to grief specifically missionrunners and I suspect that's exactly what you would want to use it for. I think it would be a far better idea to auto-release wrecks after 2 hours and then give them another hour in FFA mode before they despawn. If the servers can handle that. That last hour could be shortened in missionhubs or maybe dynamically based on the amount of garbage in space. edit: that would also add some risk/reward to salvaging. If you wait a little longer somebody else might salvage the site, but if not, you can use tractors and salvage a lot easier + get the loot :) -
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.12.22 11:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Robert Caldera Hating flying through belts full of wrecks not being able to tractor them. Then ask us to blue them for you. Whilst I generally do batches now and again I'm not sat there blueing each and every wreck the second its popped. If I spot you, I'll do it, but I'm normally doing other stuff whilst the lasers cycle, so a quick mail or poke will often yield results.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.22 12:35:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Incognito If there is someone mining in a system ask them to abandon all the wrecks. It is not a crime to talk to other players :) no its not, but I think I would get kicked out of alliance for continouos asking for wrecks :) Originally by: Callista Sincera So let me get this straight, you want the "lazy" missionrunner to flag every single wreck manually before some salvage guy warps in and loots+salvages them all (possibly while the runner is stilly busy shooting things) exactly. Well, to prevent ninja looting make wrecks ffa after 10 sek. the ship popped so the mission runner has the time to re-claim it. Originally by: Callista Sincera , when you on the other hand are too lazy to fly to the wrecks to salvage them? Dude, don't use "lazy" when you aren't any different or in this case even worse. i'm not lazy, i am not even allowed to loot auto-claimed wrecks. Originally by: Callista Sincera What you ask for is a tool to grief specifically missionrunners and I suspect that's exactly what you would want to use it for. i dont care about mission runners, i just dont like walls of claimed wrecks in belts from people who actually dont care about them. The logics of taking actions for things, you dont care about, is faulty in its basics. You should only have to do something if you're interested in stuff, not the inverse way. Originally by: Callista Sincera I think it would be a far better idea to auto-release wrecks after 2 hours and then give them another hour in FFA mode before they despawn. 2 hours is too long, after 2h they already despawn. Lets say 10 minutes, I could live with that. After all I have to emphasize my suggestion to change fundamentally bad logics relying on people have actively to do something for things, they actually dont bother about.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.12.22 13:45:00 - [11] Robert Caldera you are missing the point. The Wrecks belong to the person who kill the rat. It is up to them to abandon them or not. If we wanted it so you had to claim them we would not have made it a crime to take from some else can. This feature was added specifically because a lot of people wanted a way to give loot rights to someone else in the case where they did not care who loots the wrecks. All those wrecks belong to the person who killed them, regardless if it is 10 min after they kill it or 2 seconds before the wreck despawns. It is their wreck. If they chose to allow you to loot/ salvage the wreck is there choice. If they are nowhere in sight then steal the stuff and fly away. Just be aware of the consequences stealing from someones wreck. If they are nice enough to abandon the wreck then you can take from it without being flagged a criminal. ----- I am a programmer, not a designer, all design comments are just speculation and have no grounding in fact!

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.22 14:04:00 - [12] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/12/2009 14:04:20 I am not missing the point, I am suggesting a change which would make sense I believe (it is a features and ideas forum, isn't it?). Besides that, in my opinion the ownership change for wrecks is the wrong way anyways since you're always stealing from NPC.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.12.22 15:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Robert Caldera always stealing from NPC. EVE is not a solo game. You're not stealing from an NPC, your stealing from whom ever killed the NPC. With the exception of salvage obviously.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.22 16:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/12/2009 16:09:29 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Robert Caldera always stealing from NPC. EVE is not a solo game. You're not stealing from an NPC, your stealing from whom ever killed the NPC. With the exception of salvage obviously. stealing from NPC is always if you take something out of a NPC wreck. It absolutely does not matter who does this, so its not a problem if someone else than the wrecker of an NPC ship takes the stuff, the NPC is simply robbed by a different player, so nobody should care. But well, its not the topic here actually
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.22 16:34:00 - [15] Just give us option to always abandon wrecks, i dont want killrights on anyone in empire.
Callista Sincera Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.22 17:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Robert Caldera the NPC is simply robbed by a different player, so nobody should care Nice try - lol. Concord gave the guy who shot the ebil pirate a claim to that wrecks' contents as additional reward for shooting the ebil pirate. How about that? Trying to explain things in a game from an in-character perspective doesn't even make sense when it should. In your case it shouldn't even do that. -
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.22 17:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Callista Sincera Nice try - lol. Concord gave the guy who shot the ebil pirate a claim to that wrecks' contents as additional reward for shooting the ebil pirate. How about that? discussed many times and it always failed since the same logics are applied where no concord is.
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:38:00 - [18] Originally by: CCP Incognito The salvage has always been intended to be a FFA situation, you just can't tractor wrecks you don't own, so you have to work for it. i've made this point many times before, but since this thread seems to have your attention... fact 1: Salvage is FFA. fact 2: Empty wrecks have no loot, and are therefore just salvage waiting to happen. Conclusion 1: Empty wrecks should logically be FFA. "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.12.22 18:52:00 - [19] Edited by: WarlockX on 22/12/2009 18:52:12 Dumb idea. Why would anyone have to claim something that's already theirs? In your messed up world I would have to stand beside my car and scream this is mine no one take it. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.12.23 08:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/12/2009 08:44:07 Originally by: WarlockX Edited by: WarlockX on 22/12/2009 18:52:12 Dumb idea. Why would anyone have to claim something that's already theirs? In your messed up world I would have to stand beside my car and scream this is mine no one take it. yes, its currently yours for curious reasons, this is exactly what I am proposing for change. In your messed up world you would expect a car from other people wrecked in an accident yours because you crashed it. The stuff is yours by game rules but it shouldn't by common sense. A property does not change on destruction.
Callista Sincera Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.23 09:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Callista Sincera Nice try - lol. Concord gave the guy who shot the ebil pirate a claim to that wrecks' contents as additional reward for shooting the ebil pirate. How about that? discussed many times and it always failed since the same logics are applied where no concord is. My point was that you cannot argue from an ingame perspective. But if you really must (again): Just because there is no police doesn't mean there is no law, dude. You may chose to ignore it, your ship however doesn't. It's like those cars they build these days that don't go past 250 even though they could. Happy now? Fact really is, you want missionrunners to do tons of additional stuff while they already have their hands full when you yourself are to lazy to salvage with a nice and fast frig - like every other salvage guy does. No matter what kind of argument you make, this fact will always remain. You lack objectivity and your only goal here is to move the work from you to somebody else while at the same time also profiting from his. You're not going to convince a developer like that :) -
Marcus Gideon Gallente Federal Defense Operations	Posted - 2009.12.23 16:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 23/12/2009 16:16:07 Originally by: CCP Incognito Robert Caldera you are missing the point. The Wrecks belong to the person who kill the rat. It is up to them to abandon them or not. If we wanted it so you had to claim them we would not have made it a crime to take from some else can. This feature was added specifically because a lot of people wanted a way to give loot rights to someone else in the case where they did not care who loots the wrecks. All those wrecks belong to the person who killed them, regardless if it is 10 min after they kill it or 2 seconds before the wreck despawns. It is their wreck. If they chose to allow you to loot/ salvage the wreck is there choice. If they are nowhere in sight then steal the stuff and fly away. Just be aware of the consequences stealing from someones wreck. If they are nice enough to abandon the wreck then you can take from it without being flagged a criminal. I'm totally saving this post for posterity. It goes completely against everything ever said about Salvage and Wrecks before. Salvaging is supposed to be a profession, like mining or exploration. And yet, there is every form of safeguard in place to make sure a professional can't do their job. So apparently CCO Incognito has come forward and admitted that Salvage was never meant to be a profession. Wrecks (loot and salvage) are intended for the victor only... and should he choose to share, that is his right. Of course, this could all be easily corrected once again... Wrecks belong to the victor, because they serve as the container for the loot. Once that loot is collected, or if there is no loot to begin with, the wrecks should become public property. The simplest solution is to have kills spawn a labeled Jet Can, and a completely neutral FFA wreck. Then anyone can tractor and salvage, while only the victor can claim the loot.
Callista Sincera Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.23 16:58:00 - [23] Yes Marcus, absolutely right, it's a conspiracy. On a related note: The world will end in 2012. -
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.23 18:11:00 - [24] marcus, i don't think ccp will ever have kills generate both a wreck and a loot can. it's more data on the server and potentially more lag. "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
Marcus Gideon Gallente Federal Defense Operations	Posted - 2009.12.24 02:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Kruulus marcus, i don't think ccp will ever have kills generate both a wreck and a loot can. it's more data on the server and potentially more lag. More lag? Wrecks and Jet Cans both time out after 2 hrs. And that's only if you run WC a few times and leave it all behind. Otherwise there won't be that much more "space trash" than usual. Except this space trash is easier to deal with. Runners can claim their loot, and salvagers can collect the wreckage.
Zaknussem Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.12.24 03:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Kruulus Fact 1: Salvage is FFA (free for all). Fact 2: Empty wrecks have no loot, and are therefore just salvage waiting to happen. Conclusion 1: Empty wrecks should logically be considered FFA. Fact 3: A pilot's tractor beams work on the wrecks they generated and on FFA(blue) wrecks. Conclusion 2: Tractor beams should work on ALL empty wrecks. You're wrong. As is, empty wrecks are not FFA. They belong to whomever "created" the wreck, it just so happens that you aren't criminally flagged for salvaging them. It's legal theft. Quote: also on a related note, which can have separate consideration from the one above, i think a certain part of the tractor mechanic needs to be changed. instead of simply blocking tractor beams on any yellow wreck... tractor beaming a wreck owned by someone else should be a criminal(kill right) offense instead of simply impossible. i see no reason why i shouldn't be allowed to tractor someone else's wreck in low/null sec. this also might partially appease the ninja salvage whiners since salvagers can either salvage slowly and safely without using tractor beams, or quickly using tractor beams with the risk of getting attacked. The reason that you either can't see or won't see is griefing. Let's say you're running a mission where the mission objective is to reclaim something from a wreck. What's to stop someone else from then just tractoring the wreck away from you, denying you the mission item? CCP just gave low-sec and null-sec players a tool to allow people to loot and salvage wrecks freely with Dominion. The only problem (whichs seems to be insurmountable to some players, hence this thread) is that you have to talk to other players and ask them to make the wreck(s) FFA.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Federal Defense Operations	Posted - 2009.12.24 04:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Zaknussem The reason that you either can't see or won't see is griefing. Let's say you're running a mission where the mission objective is to reclaim something from a wreck. What's to stop someone else from then just tractoring the wreck away from you, denying you the mission item? Which is where my suggestion comes in. Your mission says "Go hunt down Jim Bob, kill him, and recover XYZ from his ship". So you shoot Jim Bob, he kersplodes... and what remains is a neutral FFA wreck which anyone can tractor and salvage, and a Jet Can with XYZ inside, which is tagged for your corp so that only you can tractor and claim it. If someone wants to steal the XYZ, they have to approach and steal it, flagging them for the theft. But they can stay 20km away and drag off the wreckage freely.
Rupicolous Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.24 05:43:00 - [28] . 'Tis an interesting discussion that I couldn't keep myself from joining. . I now mission lvl 4's in a Kronos and find myself using one of the high slots for a tractor beam. . I used to leave all the wrecks and fly back with a different ship to loot/salvage but now handle it during the mission itself. . I used to take so long to finish a mission that the wrecks in the first room would despawn before I was able to get back to them. . Now that was a bummer but to think I'd be in a mission taking on 30+ ships at once only to see some other player legally tractoring one of my large wrecks from 20km+ away would be very discouraging. . Sure if I had time to claim it before you got to it - it would be mine but i'll be damned if you've ever taken on a lvl 4 high quality mission and found yourself with that much extra time to immediatly claim the wrecks of the ships you or your drones just popped. . Just sayin ......... I likes my loots and would prefers ats leasts 10 minutes befores its was mades FFA bys defaults -p .
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.24 17:06:00 - [29] Zaknussem, you need to learn how to read and how to talk. for your first reaction, notice that my "conclusion 1" says that empty wrecks SHOULD be considered ffa. i understand that they are not currently ffa and my argument was to have that changed. also, it is not legal theft... because it is not theft at all. the salvage belongs to nobody until a salvager puts it into a cargo hold. and for your second reaction, did you not notice that i said tractoring a non-ffa wreck would give kill rights the same as stealing? that has exactly the same potential for griefing as can currently happen if somebody stole the mission item. then you go on to say that ccp just gave low-sec and null-sec players this new tool to loot others' wrecks freely. low sec and null sec players already could loot wrecks freely, this new tool was given to hi-sec players. learn how to actually read other people's comments and how to proof-read your post before posting. "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
Luaren Avidius	Posted - 2009.12.24 17:31:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Incognito Robert Caldera you are missing the point. The Wrecks belong to the person who kill the rat. It is up to them to abandon them or not. If we wanted it so you had to claim them we would not have made it a crime to take from some else can. This feature was added specifically because a lot of people wanted a way to give loot rights to someone else in the case where they did not care who loots the wrecks. All those wrecks belong to the person who killed them, regardless if it is 10 min after they kill it or 2 seconds before the wreck despawns. It is their wreck. If they chose to allow you to loot/ salvage the wreck is there choice. If they are nowhere in sight then steal the stuff and fly away. Just be aware of the consequences stealing from someones wreck. If they are nice enough to abandon the wreck then you can take from it without being flagged a criminal. What about extending the life of a wreck/can to 4 hours and after two hours have elapsed force the wreck abandoned? If it hasn't been looted/salvaged by then it's likely it isn't wanted anyway. Rather than have it blow up in space, give people a chance to grab it. Oh, and make abandoned wrecks scan-able. Scavengers could probably make a killing in mission hubs off the missioners who just speed-run bounties and never loot/salvage.

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