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Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:56:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Arrador
Originally by: Ap0ll0n
Originally by: Battlingbean
Originally by: VanNostrum if lasers are so good why don't everyone fit tachyons and mega pulses to their gallente/caldari BS?
I haven't tried but considering how hard it is to fit 425mm to Rokh I suspect there would be serious fitting issues.
It¦s not hard to fit 425mm II¦s on a Rokh..
I'm guessing you have a 3% powergrid implant.
No, i fit a T2 RC, then i can comfortably fit 8 T2 425mm¦s, mwd and 2 LSE II¦s.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.08 08:36:00 -
[212]
Oh and dont forget that Tracking Enhancers are Tracking Computers. Why TC needs activations/cap/more cpu if they give less?
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.01.08 09:57:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Thirzarr My biggest gripe at all hybrid turrets is that non of them does a proper amount of DPS at the 25-55 km range. Wich basically eliminates all hybrids from all effective missionrunning. Also making the kronos the worst maraudeur.
My biggest gripe is hybrids cant do proper damage at 10-25KM. Optimal range for medium blasters is 4km with 4km falloff. I have no problem with fighting in scramble range but being forced to fight there is the suck. And the damage advantage for fighting there is pretty meh.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:14:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh and dont forget that Tracking Enhancers are Tracking Computers. Why TC needs activations/cap/more cpu if they give less?
My TCs give me more than TEs, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:21:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Arrador
Originally by: raukosen Edited by: raukosen on 06/01/2010 18:42:22 You need to fix all blaster ammo because it's broken. The optimal bonus does nothing which means that antimatter does as much damage at range as iron. The only two worth using are AM and Null
edit: also, introduce a reload skill to reduce reload time to 5 s or something
That makes no sense what so ever. What range are you talking about? And how is all blaster ammo broken? how does having an increased optimal + damage over Antimatter do nothing?
Are you trying to turn hybrids into projectile & laser turrets?
Tbh I seldom see any use in non AM/Null/Void ammo for blaster setups.
With rails however I frequently use different range modded ammo. Most notably Thorium and Uranium for my ships.
All in all I am not too fond of rails anymore. The main reason I think is teh ships designed to use them and teh fitting req for them.
Mostly caldari ships in other words. Rokh is the only exception, but a Moa or Ferox with a set of highets tier guns is not easy to build into an effective PVP ship usiong range.
I think they need some love, but one must take into account the ships designed to use them as well. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:30:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Naomi Knight Oh and dont forget that Tracking Enhancers are Tracking Computers. Why TC needs activations/cap/more cpu if they give less?
My TCs give me more than TEs, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Yeah , you put optimal range script into the TC then it will have the same optimal/falloff bonuses as TE but no tracking bonus. Thats why TC gives less than TE.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2010.01.08 11:43:00 -
[217]
Rails range is more than fine, when you consider standard +50% bonus. Sure, CCP stadrted to give range bonuses left and right but then you have double range bonused rails to still pull ahead.
What definitely needs attention is hybrid lack of medium range option. Dual rails need some love, they are all but useless to the point where using smaller size guns gives better results (basically +300% tracking for a cost of -25% DPS). They arguably need DPS of largest tier rails and they would still be weak copared to other weapon systems.
Sure, Tachyon Apoc would still beat Rokh but that is more the issue of Tachyons being still too easy to fit. I know the are not easy but they should be crippling nightmare. The comparison should be done against Megabeams.
And then we have the whole issue of lower tier long range guns not being an option. Again, not a rails issue by itself and not one that will get solved with currect game community (remember recent matar whines that they want the lowest tier ACs to suck, people are this stupid).
"Real men play badminton, deep diving is for pussies." PvP 13373P33K unscrambled
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Knorkor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.08 12:13:00 -
[218]
I would like to vote for this. Cannot tell if we just need more damage, more tracking or whatever. But all in all, we need a little bit love. But I would like to see some sort of Tracking-Bonus on our Antimatter. This would solve the problem of tracking in close range combat with large weapons.
As far as I know as Producer, it seems that there are 4 Ammotypes which are used very often by the players: - Lead - Antimatter - Iridium - Iron I tried to sell Uranium and other sort of Ammo, it did not sell very good, at least in missionrunner-hubs which are my main audience. We have so much ammotpyes as Gallente, but I only see these 3 types used very often. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me, this just my subjective view. regards --------------------------------------- Sometimes it pays to stay in bed in Monday, rather than spending the rest of the week debugging Monday's code. ~Dan Salomon |
Ray Tucker
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Posted - 2010.01.08 12:41:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Knorkor I would like to vote for this. Cannot tell if we just need more damage, more tracking or whatever. But all in all, we need a little bit love. But I would like to see some sort of Tracking-Bonus on our Antimatter. This would solve the problem of tracking in close range combat with large weapons.
As far as I know as Producer, it seems that there are 4 Ammotypes which are used very often by the players: - Lead - Antimatter - Iridium - Iron I tried to sell Uranium and other sort of Ammo, it did not sell very good, at least in missionrunner-hubs which are my main audience. We have so much ammotpyes as Gallente, but I only see these 3 types used very often. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me, this just my subjective view. regards
Antimatter, iron and lead are obvious choices being highest damage, highest range and lowest cap usage. Iridium, IMO it's for range-bonused caldari railboats - faction iridium is same damage as spike, and with ship's bonus reaches same ranges but 4x tracking
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2010.01.08 13:15:00 -
[220]
Well... this thread is actually pretty amazing!
How often has one seen one where everyone agrees on the topic: Railguns flunk the 'should I fit one' test.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:01:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Thirzarr Well... this thread is actually pretty amazing!
How often has one seen one where everyone agrees on the topic: Railguns flunk the 'should I fit one' test.
I see a lot of people who were formerly fighting to get projectiles balanced. I think we need something new to rally around.
I don't think Hybrids are as busted as projectiles were...but I'd certainly like to see a bit love go to both Blasters and Rails. There have been plenty of good, mostly-realistic ideas floating around too.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:21:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Seriously Bored I see a lot of people who were formerly fighting to get projectiles balanced. I think we need something new to rally around.
Do you remember how much work that was? Seriously... and really the thing that gained projectiles so much traction was being forced (repeatedly) to explain how falloff actually worked. Here, it's just a matter of Caldari hybrid boats being damage anemic, and Gallente hybrid boats just not being worth it over something else you could fly (Lasers/Projectiles/Missiles).
Do hybrids need a boost? Yes: - Blasters need more damage. They don't need more tracking or range... damage. Damage at range (near and far) will proceed naturally. - Rails need more DPS - which probaby means a ROF increase of some variety. - Hybrid ships with range bonuses need a stronger range bonuses (including Diemost, Rokh, Eagle, etc) :)
Meh, I'm done.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:29:00 -
[223]
Just fix my eagle ferox moa rokh vulture raptor and the crappy gall blaster ships.
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Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:33:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Do hybrids need a boost? Yes: - Blasters need more damage. They don't need more tracking or range... damage. Damage at range (near and far) will proceed naturally. - Rails need more DPS - which probaby means a ROF increase of some variety. - Hybrid ships with range bonuses need a stronger range bonuses (including Diemost, Rokh, Eagle, etc) :)
- Blasters do need more Tracking. What's the point of using the close rangiest weapon system in the game if ships your size can evade your turrets not only by flying further away but also by flying closer? - Rails need more Range wich translates into more DPS at a given range
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:55:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Dabljuh
- Blasters do need more Tracking. What's the point of using the close rangiest weapon system in the game if ships your size can evade your turrets not only by flying further away but also by flying closer?
Comments: - Ships your size will not be evading your guns that much by flying close to you. That's just talking nonsense. - It is *not* unreasonable that ships *under* your size evade your guns by coming in closer.... if they can survive the Zone Of Death to get there. - Tracking is really a non issue with multiple webs in gang. Rails, Tachs, and Artillery hit up close, and Pulse ships additionally have no tracking problems. So no, more tracking will not solve the issue. - Conclusion: Blasters need more base damage. Preferably in the form of damage instead of ROF.
Quote: - Rails need more Range wich translates into more DPS at a given range
No, Caldari railships need more range, which translates into more DPS at a given range. Gallente railships just need more DPS (note this would also affect the above Caldari ships). Unless you're really asking for a *base* rail boost so strong that the Mega can use CN Iridium at 180km? At that point, though, I think we'd find that optimal bonused ships would be effectively useless.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Tray LiSans
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Posted - 2010.01.08 20:50:00 -
[226]
Range bonus and ROF for rails seems like a sensible option to give them a place without destroying the place of other long range platforms. However, if we give rails a ROF bonus, they must have a cap use reduction to match, or we'll have yet another problem on our hands. We also might have to reduce the size of some large ammo as well. If you fill a Rokh with nothing but ammo, it will empty it's hold in a bit over 2 hours, which isn't unmanageable at the moment. But a further ROF increase will probably make it so.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.08 21:34:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Do you remember how much work that was? Seriously...
Oh my god yes. And I came to the rally when it was half-way through. I don't really envy anyone who's mission is to buff hybrids...but I have to admit I kind of miss the threadnaughts full of anecdotes, graphs, and thesis-length balance proposals.
Oh wait. That's right...I'm a masochist and a dork.
Quote: Do hybrids need a boost? Yes: - Blasters need more damage. They don't need more tracking or range... damage. Damage at range (near and far) will proceed naturally. - Rails need more DPS - which probaby means a ROF increase of some variety. - Hybrid ships with range bonuses need a stronger range bonuses (including Diemost, Rokh, Eagle, etc) :)
Sign me up!
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.01.08 21:58:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Baneken Actually I like the idea of lowering sig radius from hybrid this would allow greater damage potential for hybrids against smaller targets while still keeping the current balance with Bs vs Bs engagements. So in conclusion lower the sig radius of large and medium hybrids and give over all tracking boost for hybrids, after that evaluate the need for an actual dps boost.
Other thing to look at are the hybrid ammo in general because about everyone uses only one kind of ammo and that's antimatter, something should be done to make other ammo worth using.
With current hit formula for turrets , turret tracking/turret signature what matters , lowering the sign radius is the same as increasing their tracking, there is no reason to lower the sign radius while you can just increase the tracking.
Is this true? That way I've always thought Eve determined hit/miss and damage dealt via hits was:
*Gun Fires* 1.) Check target distance from ship. If in optimal, go to 2.) If in falloff, roll dice: 1a.) Dice comes up miss. No Damage. or 1b.) Dice comes up hit. Go to 2.)
2.) Check target transversal velocity against turret tracking. 2a.) Tracking < transversal. No Damage. 2b.) Transversal < tracking. Go to 3.)
3.) Check target sig radius against turret sig resolution. 3a.) Sig res < sig radius. Full turret damage. 3b.) Sig radius < sig res. Percent turrent damage based on (sig resolution)/(sig radius)
Thus, lowering the sig resolution of rails would NOT be equivalent to increasing turret tracking. Of course, I could be wrong, and if so can someone enlighten me?
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.08 22:05:00 -
[229]
Originally by: grapez Of course, I could be wrong, and if so can someone enlighten me?
You're wrong.
# Original Formula by Naughty Boy # ((1.0/2.0) ** ((((Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad)) ** 2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff) ** 2))
# Original hit quality formula by KzIg (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333) # Expected damage per shot = normal damage * [min(chance to hit, 1%)*3 + max(0,chance to hit - 1%)*(0.99+chance to hit)/2]
The implications here: - You will *hit* 50% of the time at optimal + falloff, but due to the "falloff penalty" you will only deal ~40.5% of your EFT DPS (assuming a stopped target) - You will deal ~80% of your DPS at optimal + 1/2 falloff - You will deal 103% of your EFT DPS due to wrecking hits if you are inside optimal - There's a "tracking modifier" Transv/(Range*Tracking) -- which is to say that your 'effective tracking at range' is important. - Sig Res/Sig Radius is your 'sig modifier' -- so 25m (frig) / 400 (BS gun) is quite the penalty to hit! - Your modifiers are *multiplied* ... so small fast things are much harder to hit than just something fast or just something small.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Fearless M0F0
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.08 22:25:00 -
[230]
/signed
Rails are so much fail you are better off fitting lasers. I tested running the same L2 mission in a Vexor with both T2 rails and pulse lasers. With the lasers I was one-shooting all frigs that got close while with rails it would take 5-8 shots
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.01.08 22:30:00 -
[231]
Fascinating. That seems like a really computationally complex exercise that CCP has to do serverside every time someone activates a turret, unless there's some huge lookup table. Do you have that formula in any other manner? I think I might be reading it wrong, because as I'm reading it, as [sig_res/sig_rad] increases, damage becomes less =/
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2010.01.09 03:31:00 -
[232]
computers do math really fast
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Dr Cedric
Caldari The Nietzian Way Vanguard.
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Posted - 2010.01.09 05:45:00 -
[233]
I'm curious when we're going to start seeing some graphs and extensive damage/balancing calculations...
C'mon guys, get to work so I can start using my Rokh for missions!!
Seriously though, I did do some very primitive graphs on EFT, and all things equal (biggest T2 guns on tier 3 BS with similar damage/tracking mods) Rails have basically no place in the game. Tachyons by far have the best versatility from 0 to 250 km, w/ a very decent DPS at all ranges. 1400 Howy II's don't look too good on paper, but thats because EFT only shows DPS, not alpha on the graph. Rails do basically half the damage over the same range as the Tach's, but don't get any advantage w/ either tracking or DPS, and thats throughout the range.
So, long story short...rails are teh suck! Fix em! Dr Cedric
CEO Orbital Industry and Research -OIR- |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.09 06:28:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Dr Cedric I'm curious when we're going to start seeing some graphs and extensive damage/balancing calculations...
C'mon guys, get to work so I can start using my Rokh for missions!!
Seriously though, I did do some very primitive graphs on EFT, and all things equal (biggest T2 guns on tier 3 BS with similar damage/tracking mods) Rails have basically no place in the game. Tachyons by far have the best versatility from 0 to 250 km, w/ a very decent DPS at all ranges. 1400 Howy II's don't look too good on paper, but thats because EFT only shows DPS, not alpha on the graph. Rails do basically half the damage over the same range as the Tach's, but don't get any advantage w/ either tracking or DPS, and thats throughout the range.
So, long story short...rails are teh suck! Fix em!
Your numerical analysis stuns me with its accuracy. Comments: - Alpha is useful only in limited circumstances. Its a damn site better than it used to be (because its actually significant), but its still not fantastic. - Your comparison with Rails-Tachs is of limited use because you aren't considering all variables (such as fitting space, weapon "size", etc) - You should convince some old hats with some skill at numerical analysis to take up your cause. I would be willing to take it up for 250M ISK/wk to pay for replacing my in game PVE time (I have already stated that some boost is appropriate - convincing me to evangelize it and spend my time proving it to a thousand knuckleheads is quite another thing).
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Dr Cedric
Caldari The Nietzian Way Vanguard.
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Posted - 2010.01.09 06:40:00 -
[235]
To Liang:
Dunno if you were trying to be funny or an A-hole, use more icons
Also, if you'd like to spare me 250M isk/wk, please give me a quick run down of what guns I should use to make a better comparison.
I looked at longest range weapon, longest range T2 ammo and compared ships fit w/ similar damage mods. I'd like to get a hybrid boost, and if it means that I need to do a bit of work, please fill me in as to how I could do a better job. Thanks Dr Cedric
CEO Orbital Industry and Research -OIR- |
Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.01.09 06:49:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Dabljuh on 09/01/2010 06:50:23
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Ships your size will not be evading your guns that much by flying close to you. That's just talking nonsense.
No sensible competent player tries to evade a blaster boat of the same size by going closer. However, if *you* are in a blaster bloat, you want to hug those suckers. Hugging means: overshooting on approach, means bumping into them etc. Your *own* transversal that you will necessarily cause just by trying to get close to your intended target destroys any dps advantage of blasters. IF you control transversal by carefully / luckily not overshooting and bumping, you get destroyed by pulses and ACs who have been firing at and hitting you for a long time already due to longer range, and at the point where you consolidate, they have essentially the same or more tracking.
Blasters need a whole massive lot more tracking, extensive calculations have been done on that subject that show this very clearly. Any straight DPS increase would only increase blaster damage fractionally because of the tracking issues.
Quote: - Tracking is really a non issue with multiple webs in gang. [...]
Tracking is never an issue in situations where everyone is immobile to begin with. But you are using blasters, hence 99.9% of the time you'll be charging the target, and usually at an angle. No matter how many webs you put on a guy, if you're approaching at high speed and an angle, your blasters will miss due to a lack of tracking.
Quote:
Quote: - Rails need more Range wich translates into more DPS at a given range
No, Caldari railships need more range, which translates into more DPS at a given range. Gallente railships just need more DPS (note this would also affect the above Caldari ships). Unless you're really asking for a *base* rail boost so strong that the Mega can use CN Iridium at 180km? At that point, though, I think we'd find that optimal bonused ships would be effectively useless.
Yes, that's exactly what I am suggesting - a base range buff for all hybrids of about 30%, accompanied by a 25% tracking reduction. A Moa firing Lead at 100km is useless? (50% moa bonus +30% railgun buff +3 tracking enhancers) No, especially railships with range bonuses would profit immensely from a base range buff on railguns - because that gives these optimal bonuses so much more power.
It would give Hybrids a theme - Extreme ranges. Hybrids as a whole would also suffer very much from having no medium range system - complementing the alternatives of drones and missiles.
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2010.01.09 11:03:00 -
[237]
I hate when this happens... :P but I'll have to agree with liangs approach on this:
Damage for blasters to offset their well deserved drawbacks. RoF to increase DPS on rails. Probably would have to be lowered in cap usage.
I personally feel the amunition bein somewhat... unrewarding. I'd hate to see the diversity of the charges go, but maybe the proposed solutions could be ammunition based? *ponders*
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.09 19:54:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Dr Cedric Dunno if you were trying to be funny or an A-hole, use more icons
I was trying to be helpful, believe it or not. TBH, if that post bothered you, you aren't really cut out for forum warrioring.
Quote: If you'd like to spare me 250M isk/wk, please give me a quick run down of what guns I should use to make a better comparison.
I've said it before - even in this thread. You cannot take just guns and compare them. You have to compare entire fittings.... and I mean the entire thing not just the DPS. Additionally, you're going to have to contend with competing philosophies about how to boost hybrids. You're going to have to recognize boosts that not only break the game, but also those which are effectively not going to fix what they are purported to fix. Like the one I address in the rest of this post. :)
Also, I would not care to spare you 250M ISK/wk... but nobody said it had to be just you who paid me.
Originally by: Dabljuh Your *own* transversal that you will necessarily cause just by trying to get close to your intended target destroys any dps advantage of blasters. ... Tracking is never an issue in situations where everyone is immobile to begin with. But you are using blasters, hence 99.9% of the time you'll be charging the target, and usually at an angle. No matter how many webs you put on a guy, if you're approaching at high speed and an angle, your blasters will miss due to a lack of tracking.
So basically you just admitted that blasters don't have tracking problems against ships their own size with the single caveat that when you charge someone it wrecks your DPS while you're inbound. But speaking from experience, its more likely to be range that wrecks your damage on approach (at least for the majority of the time your damage is wrecked). Also, transversal is a two way street - if you have a high transversal, so do they. Thus, your damage advantage is maintained.
Quote: Blasters need a whole massive lot more tracking, extensive calculations have been done on that subject that show this very clearly. Any straight DPS increase would only increase blaster damage at best fractionally because of the tracking issues.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the whole "blaster whine" for very long. The blaster community is roughly evenly split over whether it needs more damage or more tracking. And truthfully, there's good arguments on both sides. However, ultimately the question comes down to the role that you see blasters being used in.
If you see blasters as a solo only weapons system, you're going to ask for more tracking so that you can reasonably engage targets smaller than you. If you see blasters as being lacking in gangs, you're going to ask for more DPS so that it becomes worthwhile to MWD over or even use Null and pelt them from range. Remember that even lasers have pretty passable tracking when you get right down to it (with and without a gang) - so a tracking boost will be of strictly limited utility.
The rest of your post is about rails, and I don't believe it will fit in this particular post. I'll address it momentarily.
Also, bump.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.09 20:26:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Dabljuh Yes, that's exactly what I am suggesting - a base range buff for all hybrids of about 30%, accompanied by a 25% tracking reduction. A Moa firing Lead at 100km is useless? (50% moa bonus +30% railgun buff +3 tracking enhancers) No, especially railships with range bonuses would profit immensely from a base range buff on railguns - because that gives these optimal bonuses so much more power.
I wish you would have stopped to read what I'd actually said. Just to be clear, what you're suggesting is a 30% optimal boost - which would yield a 160km Mega with CN Iridium. What I actually said was that unless the MEGA is able to use CN Iridium @ 180km (Iridium, because its the "Spike" equivalent with more tracking) that boosting base rail range would be wasted on the Mega since you'll still have to use Spike.
Thus, I said that Gallente need more DPS, and Caldari rail boats need more range (to simultaneously take advantage of the Gallente DPS boost and also use higher damage ammo).
However, lets take a look at your suggestion. This will be with 3 damage mods and 3 optimal mods: The 100km Game Apoc, 8 Tach (IN Xray) = 577 DPS @ 100km Your Rokh, CN Antimatter (50802 * 1.3 * 1.5) = 553 DPS @ 100km Your Mega, CN Uranium (76203 * 1.3) = 504 DPS @ 100km
The 180km Game Apoc, Aurora = 401 DPS @ 231 Your Rokh, CN Thorium (133356 * 1.3) = 369 DPS @ 198km (Yes, you'll be using Lead because Thorium doesn't quite get the range you need) Your Mega, Spike (182888 * 1.3) = 351 DPS @ 237 (Yes, you'll be using Spike at 180km because CN Iridium isn't strong enough to get you there)
Conclusion: You slightly boosted the Rokh and nerfed the Rail Megathron for no reason. Which is exactly what I said would happen.
Quote: It would give Hybrids a theme - Extreme ranges. Hybrids as a whole would also suffer very much from having no medium range system - complementing the alternatives of drones and missiles.
In one sentence you say that Hybrids would become the weapons of Extreme Ranges - and in the next you say that hybrids suffer from not having enough mid range. It seems like you'd be aiming to improve the hybrid mid range instead of extreme ranges if you truly believed that.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Dabljuh
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Posted - 2010.01.09 20:34:00 -
[240]
I'm not going to argue with you about blasters. Blasters have less relative tracking than the other two weapon systems, anyone can see that.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Conclusion: You slightly boosted the Rokh and nerfed the Rail Megathron for no reason. Which is exactly what I said would happen.
I remember you saying the exact opposite:
Originally by: Liang Nuren No, Caldari railships need more range, which translates into more DPS at a given range. Gallente railships just need more DPS (note this would also affect the above Caldari ships). Unless you're really asking for a *base* rail boost so strong that the Mega can use CN Iridium at 180km? At that point, though, I think we'd find that optimal bonused ships would be effectively useless.
-Liang
If that's not what you meant to say, then, well, learn to #+@! express yourself clearly.
Quote: In one sentence you say that Hybrids would become the weapons of Extreme Ranges - and in the next you say that hybrids suffer from not having enough mid range. It seems like you'd be aiming to improve the hybrid mid range instead of extreme ranges if you truly believed that.
-Liang
I'm going to restate what I said, very slowly for you special people:
1. Rails would be very very long range and Blaster would be very very short range 2. Therefore, Caldari and Gallente ships would have a bigger "hole" in the middle 3. But this doesn't matter, they've had a hole in the middle all along, that's why they have missiles and drones which deal out a flat dps courve throughout all ranges. 4. Your Momma.
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