EVE Search - New Dev Blog: the CSM- in hindsight and for the future

All Channels

EVE Information Portal

New Dev Blog: the CSM- in hindsight and for the future

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2009.12.28 15:17:00 - [1] Several members of the third Council of Stellar Management share their thoughts on the third Council in CCP Xhagen's newest dev blog. Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

Clone 1 Occision	Posted - 2009.12.28 15:31:00 - [2] Am I out of line thinking that Zastrow's opinion is one that is generally reflective of a lot of the eve community? The other comments I think only plßmßs the CSM idea or CCP. Do you think there is a way to deal with the general apathy that a lot of players feel towards the CSM as the voting % shows. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.12.28 15:50:00 - [3] What Zastrow said. The CSM has not been used as a tool to get feedback on major changes that were neither tested nor thought out well. It's sad, but in its current form, the CSM is nigh useless. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.12.28 16:52:00 - [4] The problem with the CSM is institutional. The various mechanisms imposed upon it limited the ability of the CSM members to engage and keep engaged the players in the process. Despite the democratic marketing blurp offered at the inauguration of the CSM, the process lacks any of the basic democratic mechanisms. There is no incentive, nor imperative for the CSM or CCP, to address any of the issues that live among the players, or for CCP to act upon any of the issues brought forward by the CSM. Both parties are at large to ignore or either censor such proceedings, if necessary by using the non-disclosure agreement as a shield. Neither the players nor subsequently the CSM has any means of exerting any pressure to discuss or act upon any issue at any time. Even when the CSM brings to discussion such issues, which to their credit they appear to do at times, there is no leverage on CCP to actually act, or even respond to them. As such, one can only wonder what possible use the CSM can have. As a communication channel it is limited and selective, and in general a poor substitute for the forum. Although I can see that for CCP is must be useful to externalise reading the forums. As an instrument of change bought forward from the players, it is also limited, but in addition, entirely dependent on CCP's cooperation. And that is, when it is counts, clearly in short supply (there have been several examples of this recently and before). And so, with the fourth iteration around the corner, the CSM remains powerless and ineffective. Despite the over-optimistic words in the dev-blog about process, it looks like it will remain so. A nice marketing ploy to generate headlines and devblogs it may be, but with very little to offer to the players, beyond perhaps a paid holiday trip to Iceland for the winners of the popularity contest that it has devolved to. And that, naturally, is expressed through voter counts. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:05:00 - [5] Zastrow nailed it. Less PR, more development.
Brendana Fortescue	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:09:00 - [6] CSM 3 was a disaster and only few people understood the game mechanic and players needs. Most of them have torpedoed FW proposals when clearly they had no clue. Luckly CCP heard to general eve population.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:11:00 - [7] I think Zastrow hit the nail on the head... it's what I and the rest of us envisioned what the CSM would be like. At the moment the CSM really pretty flacid with regards to 'power' and influence. A fine experiment and a novel idea but not utilised to it's full potential.
Treelox Amarr Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:32:00 - [8] Having known some others very well who were in previous CSM's and talking to them about it, I have to wholeheartedly agree with Zastrow, in his summation of the lack of utilization by CCP of the CSM. Sig Zone Signature picture is inappropriate. Please change. ~Weatherman
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:38:00 - [9] Edited by: Pottsey on 28/12/2009 17:43:48 If CSM are doing their job well how come we have such major issues not fixed some for a year. Massive sound problems, worse now than 2 years ago why has CSM not bought this up? why are CCP not commenting on it? Worse graphics like shadows that have taken a massive step backwards, now worse than when the game first shipped. Then there are new problems like the real bad new storyline missions just added that most players hate and are very unfair to Gallente players. But no CSM or CCP comments? If CSM was just talked to and they had an idea about the players these missions would never have been implanted. Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM. EDIT: Reading Zastrow bit it sounds more like the problem is CCP not the CSM. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Mkah Mvet Chumly Incorporated Beyond-Control	Posted - 2009.12.28 17:43:00 - [10] I feel ripped off that, after promoting as much of my alliance as I could to vote as intelligently as they could, all the bull crap with Dominion happened. I want the option for an 'abstain' vote on the next CSM (if I'm even playing EVE any more by then) so I can register that there isn't voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction.
evemonbase	Posted - 2009.12.28 19:07:00 - [11] Originally by: Mkah Mvet I want the option for an 'abstain' vote on the next CSM (if I'm even playing EVE any more by then) so I can register that there isn't voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction. The option to 'abstain' was there when I voted this time.
Dierdra Vaal Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.12.28 21:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Pottsey Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM. Sound was brought up, in fact after discussing this with one of the main sound guys a second document was sent detailing wishes and complaints. However, the sound engine is a complex thing and it cant be fixed easily. Luckily, unlike a year ago, CCP now have a few dedicated sound devs on staff :) Director of Education :: EVE University
Louis deGuerre Gallente VA Holding Void Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.28 23:59:00 - [13] After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes. I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances. Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie ROTDK is recruiting
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.29 01:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Louis deGuerre After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes. I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances. Which FW topics were blown off? Some were rejected because the wording was vague and the explanation and arguements for them were pretty off key (you FW kids can blame yourselves for that your elected rep, Erik Finnigan, although a thouroughly decent guy and pleasure to work with, was hardly the pinnacle of FW experience) but a good deal got pushed through. Hull Rep Drones. Raised, voted on, done. Took about 30 seconds all in all, if only all of our issues had been like that. Once again there's lots of whining about the CSM but not a lot of doing. If you want to change things then run yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then contact a few of the delegates and ask them to champion some proposals. They aren't plugged into the forums 24/7 and some good topics slip through. There's plenty of room for improvement within the CSM but it needs more support from the Devs and more importantly more support from the players.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.12.29 02:38:00 - [15] Edited by: rgreat on 29/12/2009 02:43:48 First, CSM members must have direct close to realtime communication access to developers. MSN, ICQ, etc... or at least e-mail. Also, allow CSM members to give out sizable salary bonuses (CCP Funded) to selected DEV's for the job well done. That will give developers some motivation to actually listen to CSM... . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.12.29 03:21:00 - [16] o// I applaud CCP for the Zastrow comment being included. But I am concerned about all these proposals being NDA'd all the time. If a fix is supposed to be put in as soon as discovered, like say missing Hull Rep Drones,[not T2 Medium/Heavy/Fighter Mining Drones], or MSs not being a Logistic Ship class anymore[crappy Clone Vats anyway], is that fix supposed to be compiled for an expansion or should it be given a scrum team and done in a month, fortnight, week? They mentioned Industrial changes, I have not seen many. I've seen tweaks, but not actually improving Mining as a profession. Missions in highsec still unbalance all the region markets, and Sov changes had major bugs that were ignored. What is the deal? The game is growing bigger, faster, but I don't see dedicated polish. WoW does not[and should not] win game innovation awards, they have Blizzard's attention to detail on the polish. Cannot believe I'm congratulating WoW. 7
Hura Achurai	Posted - 2009.12.29 06:33:00 - [17] I no longer read the cms forums, nor vote. Why? the cms is a fraud, they do nothing. A shield for ccp to hide behind while pretending to care - nothing more nothing less. If you are not a large alliance with CCP members your needs will not be heard, not cared about and never addressed. Whatever lie CCP wants told the CMS will tell, gladly. I personally know the CMS to misrepresent their effectiveness and responsibilities. Ours is a history negating my participation ever again in any sham called the CMS and all the blogs claiming otherwise is a repeat of the original misrepresentation of truth. On these very forums, CCP admits this! so - Why vote?
Louis deGuerre Gallente VA Holding Void Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:17:00 - [18] Oh, gimme a break. I can't be bothered to look up the minutes but I think all FW proposals were nuked except some very general 'please look more at FW'-one or something. And if my feeble memory serves the exact same thing happened in the CSM before that. It was obvious from the minutes that most CSM members had zero interest in non-0.0 stuff and nuked the proposals solely on that basis. Two years down the road, and FW is still as broken as ever. I haven't followed CSM closely since then, but of course your contribution to the credibility of the CSM (i.e. insider trading) goes a long way to help players take the CSM serously. As you are obviously proud of your actions I won't discuss that further with you but my opinion that you should have been permabanned from eve and your character should have been incinerated in the deepest pits of hell are on record. Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Louis deGuerre After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes. I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances. Which FW topics were blown off? Some were rejected because the wording was vague and the explanation and arguements for them were pretty off key (you FW kids can blame yourselves for that your elected rep, Erik Finnigan, although a thouroughly decent guy and pleasure to work with, was hardly the pinnacle of FW experience) but a good deal got pushed through. Hull Rep Drones. Raised, voted on, done. Took about 30 seconds all in all, if only all of our issues had been like that. Once again there's lots of whining about the CSM but not a lot of doing. If you want to change things then run yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then contact a few of the delegates and ask them to champion some proposals. They aren't plugged into the forums 24/7 and some good topics slip through. There's plenty of room for improvement within the CSM but it needs more support from the Devs and more importantly more support from the players. Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie ROTDK is recruiting
Halycon Gamma Caldari The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.12.30 02:40:00 - [19] And in the end the thing that says the most about this Devblog, and the CSM in general, is how few replies there are on this thread. Congrats to all involved. A game defining feature, one talked up to the press and put forward as a poster-child for how Eve is different, better, than the other MMOs out there. And no one cares. Its like almost every other new feature added to the game; great on paper, it never works as advertised, and even though we're promised they designed it with the idea of continually adding to it as time went forward... it just stagnates and stays broken and incomplete for 1, 2, 3, 4 years later.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2009.12.30 08:44:00 - [20] Eve is an incredibly buggy piece of software full of issues. Since the playerbase has been screaming for years, it seems CCP has long become numb to the requests. At the same time, a large portion of the devs don't even play the game anymore. To put it negatively, the CSM was created to serve as a meatshield for CCP from those pesky players and turn down their volume. While the CSM has proven to be useful to get bigger and more complex changes done, the fact that the playerbase has to raise an issue with the CSM and take multiple hurdles to get obvious bugs fixed shows that there is a serious feedback problem and that CCP has QA issues, but that is hardly news. So hereby I thank the CSM for their efforts and criticize CCP for valiantly ignoring issues and becoming more and more detached from the playerbase, essentially agreeing with Zastrow.
El Covah LOCKDOWN.	Posted - 2009.12.30 09:01:00 - [21] Zastrow pretty much described it. For the CSM to work as some kind of filter or utility for player communication CCP must communicate more with the CSM which should be easy to implement with all the manpower CCP has e.g. just put one person in charge for doing it. The invested ISK (RL-ISK this time) should be a very good investement. Otherwise it is utilized far under its possibilities and in the end voting turnout will get lower and lower. Player input is vital fpr the game we all love, and something like the elected CSM could is a real improvement to divide between the usual "whining" (which is really common here) and real issues - it just has to be used by CCP.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2009.12.30 09:55:00 - [22] Adding to my previous post: Other companies spend fortunes to analyze the profile and demands of the customer base. CCP is in the lucky position of having many customers actively trying to convey their wishes and the problems they are experiencing. Yet there seems to be internal resistance to listening to that. You can speculate as to why: - devs think we are bat**** crazy or lack the technical competence (tho there is an incredibly large portion of IT professionals in the player base) - devs fear a loss of control over their baby, dev ego etc. - the development method/habit/company culture does not envision outside feedback - devs are under too much time pressure - CCP has grown too big, issues get hampered by organizational matters and no one feels responsible for a specific issue - the CSM is not taken seriously by CCP/inside groups/specific devs In any case, this matter can only be solved by CCP itself. Players are pretty much powerless (except for canceling subscriptions as protest). The company is essentially a service provider and as such must make listening to customers part of the its culture. The development process must be changed to include CSM for feedback (yeah I hear the planners groaning). Tho this will consume more time and money, it more then makes up for that through increased product quality (all QA guys know this). I wonder if CCP is capable of such changes... If eve wasn't such a great game concept, it would have been killed a long time ago by all the issues it had/has and by how CCP deals with the player base.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2009.12.31 11:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Louis deGuerre After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes. I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances. This made me laugh well the part with the hull repair drones
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2009.12.31 11:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Aineko Macx Adding to my previous post: Other companies spend fortunes to analyze the profile and demands of the customer base. CCP is in the lucky position of having many customers actively trying to convey their wishes and the problems they are experiencing. Yet there seems to be internal resistance to listening to that. You can speculate as to why: - devs think we are bat**** crazy or lack the technical competence (tho there is an incredibly large portion of IT professionals in the player base) - devs fear a loss of control over their baby, dev ego etc. - the development method/habit/company culture does not envision outside feedback - devs are under too much time pressure - CCP has grown too big, issues get hampered by organizational matters and no one feels responsible for a specific issue - the CSM is not taken seriously by CCP/inside groups/specific devs In any case, this matter can only be solved by CCP itself. Players are pretty much powerless (except for canceling subscriptions as protest). The company is essentially a service provider and as such must make listening to customers part of the its culture. The development process must be changed to include CSM for feedback (yeah I hear the planners groaning). Tho this will consume more time and money, it more then makes up for that through increased product quality (all QA guys know this). I wonder if CCP is capable of such changes... If eve wasn't such a great game concept, it would have been killed a long time ago by all the issues it had/has and by how CCP deals with the player base. Very well written. I wish to add only one thing CSM selection process needs to change to prevent the 0.0 issues overule all other concerns. So we dont get in situation where ppl have to vote on changes in the part of the game they never played. I think it would have to be some sort of qualifying round or spearate elections for spearate areas of interest like only ppl that are enganged and active in FW can A be a candidate and B can vote for the FW delegate. That would make the CSM more competent. As it is now I fully understand the smiles on the devs faces. Half the candidates have no fuking clue wth they voting for.
Alekseyev Karrde	Posted - 2009.12.31 16:59:00 - [25] Somewhat predictable because i'm a sitting delegate but I think the CSM is doing some valuable stuff and the candidates elected are pretty strong. The voting system isnt perfect but of those people with the dedication to run and serve the best of the pool do tend to rise above, even with the low interest from the player base (from a participation % perspective). Would i like to see more voter participation? Of course i would. More opportunities to interact with and advise CCP? Naturally. But I dont think either concern is a reason the CSM should be scrapped or maligned. My prediction is that as it evolves, it will get better. Stay tuned. ---
Ban Doga	Posted - 2009.12.31 18:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 28/12/2009 17:43:48 If CSM are doing their job well how come we have such major issues not fixed some for a year. Massive sound problems, worse now than 2 years ago why has CSM not bought this up? why are CCP not commenting on it? Worse graphics like shadows that have taken a massive step backwards, now worse than when the game first shipped. Then there are new problems like the real bad new storyline missions just added that most players hate and are very unfair to Gallente players. But no CSM or CCP comments? If CSM was just talked to and they had an idea about the players these missions would never have been implanted. Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM. EDIT: Reading Zastrow bit it sounds more like the problem is CCP not the CSM. IMO, the sad truth is that the CSM cannot really do much. As Zastrow said: they got to talk to CCP once and that did not feel very good either. So it's little more than a pre-screening of forum and in-game opinions from players and communicating them to CCP again. Nothing that could make a noticeable change anyway. If CCP decides to scrap changes they started to implement they will do so. If they decide to postpone improvements on the sound engine they will do so. If they decide performance tests can be done after pusblishing a release they will do so. Seeing the first month of Dominion really makes me wonder how well the CSM process (not the people involved!!) really works. CCP Xhagens conclusion in this devlog sounds not very convincing to me...
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.12.31 22:02:00 - [27] You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs.", CCP didn't take the CSM seriously??? Who could have predicted this... Maybe when the players make take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.12.31 23:15:00 - [28] Edited by: Future Mutant on 31/12/2009 23:15:59 the csm is a joke. They do nothing but propose nerfs to hisec and buffs to null. There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community. The csm represents their master null corp. As a side bonus they get to use insider information to skew the markets. None of them should be taken seriously and judging by the vote turnout last time they arent. Next csm- if you vote, vote to abstain. At least then your not supporting a corrupt organization who doesnt want your feedback and is only looking out for themselves.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.01.01 08:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Marlona Sky Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too. Then we have a chicken and egg problem. Originally by: Future Mutant Edited by: Future Mutant on 31/12/2009 23:15:59They do nothing but propose nerfs to hisec and buffs to null. This is ofc not true. Dominion was the first "buff" (if you even want to call it that) to 0.0 in a long time. Normally it's carebears who get the love. If you look at the issues raised by CSM you'll see that the vast majority benefits all player groups. Quote: There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community. While such behavior would be despicable, link or it didn't happen.
Intangible Mirage	Posted - 2010.01.01 14:12:00 - [30] Edited by: Intangible Mirage on 01/01/2010 14:12:08 Zastrow hit it right on. As other people have said CSM is a meat shield for CCP instead of an organization to propose game changing changes.

Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.