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Orgell Evaan
Minmatar Tax Avoidance Through Alliterative Syndication
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:22:00 -
[31]
Voting for your favorite sockpuppet on the CSM is like voting in American Idol. A total waste of time.
As it is, I can't play the game because of horrendous CPU & framerate problems, and the bug team evidently took the holidays off. (Note to CCP: DO NOT push major updates right before the holidays.) Basic problems still exist, but the devs are busy adding new shiny instead of repairing base code.
I'd rant more, but TBH, CCP isn't really worth the effort.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.01 18:03:00 -
[32]
What frustrates me most regarding the CSM is what a great idea it is. CCP has created a wonderful tool to facilitate communication between the player base and the devs. Such a pity that they keep this tool on their wall rather than in their toolbox.
I would love to see a list of these 90 issues, particularly the ones that were accepted by CCP. Whatever they were, it wasn't enough to keep Dominion from being a disaster. The new Sov system is barely better than the old and only a threadnaught prevented the new motherships from being lost. While nice to have, are hull rep drones as far as CCP is willing to listen?
Please work with the CSM CCP. Increasingly there seems to be a disconnect between the game the Devs see and the game the players see, especially where 0.0 ships and space are concerned. A lot of nastiness could have been averted had Nozh let the CSM preview his dev blog before throwing it out on the forum.
You need to listen to your players and you need to let the CSM help you do that.
Colonies and Capitals |
Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.01 23:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Future Mutant on 01/01/2010 23:35:13
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Future Mutant
There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community.
While such behavior would be despicable, link or it didn't happen.
Link to where it happened
And this particular case is relatively minor. The forums are full of how csm sold their services, how they represent only themselves and their interests.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.01.02 00:07:00 -
[34]
As has been mentioned the CSM are not Devs (Developers for slow people), they don't work for CCP they hold no real power other than what issues they decide to take to CCP when they speak/meet with them, that is all they can do.
If you spend a week in the Assembly Hall checking out all the issues that are brought up so the CSM can choose to take it to CCP or not you'll quickly see how numerous the ideas and changes players want. Which in itself isn't such a bad thing as many things have been needing fixing or tweaking for years or many months. Add onto those all the 'known' issues CCP is 'working on' or has silently allowed to be 'features' as well as those issues/ideas raised previously by other CSM Councils that are 'in the works'. They can choose to inquire about those past CSM issues and likely be told 'we are working on it' which then opens the choice of pressing the issue further and likely being told the same thing in a less friendly way.
Now recall that supposedly CCP spends half of their development time fixing bugs and issues and the other half adding new content, so that's less than 50% of their resources to fixes, when you consider that the majority of player issues fall into that area do you really think much is getting done on what the playerbase wants just because CCP's pet foucs group that they don't even really use to their fullest says?
Take a look in the suggested features Forum, you can spend several hours or perhaps days reading all the ideas people have had, some have been implemented as the thread is filled with years of requests/ideas.
Finally any representative is that at best a representative of a large population and will always default to their own ideals/opinions or those of a group that has some power over them. There isn't a single player out there that will mirror your view on every issue that can or would come up no matter how close your playstyles are. Anyone that put some effort into understanding what the CSM is and what they do would come to same basic conclusion below and that one of their own members has stated in the blog.
TLDR: CSM have no real power beyond choosing the issue/ideas presented by players to bring to CCP's attention from there it is all on CCP to do something. CCP doesn't take advantage of a dedicated group of players who could provide insight into changes or ideas CCP has about the game.
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Far Wanderer
Gallente Dominium Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:52:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Far Wanderer on 02/01/2010 11:53:48 Based on the relative "youth" of the CSM (that is, how long it's been an active entity) I'm content thus far with what the CSM has done and how it works.
We have a system in place to raise issues, those issues are discussed by the CSM and some of them are submitted to CCP for review (90 such issues were submitted by CSM3, according to Dierdra Vaal).
CCP, like any company, takes time to implement changes and make sure "everything works" (more or less) before releasing them in expansions. That 19 such CSM-sponsored changes were including in Dominion is a noteworthy number. As players we should appreciate that this happened.
Note this isn't the same as saying that's all we should hope for. On the contrary, like many players I expect CCP (and the CSM) to further streamline this process and set a goal to both submit and implement changes more rapidly.
I appreciate John Zastrow's position that CCP should communicate more with the CSM, but I don't believe a weekly or biweekly meeting is smart or even practical. As John himself stated, CSM members are not Devs.
Devs need time to do their work just as the CSM needs time to collect player feedback and write smart, articulately worded and convincing arguments to CCP about why the issues CSM have chosen to focus on and ultimately submit are important and require CCPs utmost attention to fix. I can't see biweekly/weekly meetings as doing anything more than slowing the whole process down.
I don't know that I care for the idea of the CSM being a sounding board. I'd rather CCP put new ideas out through the information portal and let the player base debate it out in response threads. CSM can watch/participate/lead in these threads and do their job from there.
My 2 ISK, at any rate.
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Ottman
Amarr LoneWolf Mining
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Posted - 2010.01.03 04:20:00 -
[36]
well one thing to think about, there was already a scandal with csm misusing knowledge gained at ccp, so do you really think anyone will tell ccp a upcoming fleet fight ? nope of course not, just to ensure no one of csm can get knowledge and maybe give the information to someone else outside csm. the best way is that ccp try to make kind of automatic adjustment about bandwith etc. to improve gameplay about fleet fights.
MfG ottman
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.01.03 06:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: el caido Zastrow nailed it.
Less PR, more development.
+1 -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2010.01.03 11:45:00 -
[38]
I liked Zastrow's feedback and guessed as much that would be the case.
The CSM, as some of the most enthusiastic players of the game would always want more time to "brainstorm" with the devs discussing possibilities and improvements to the game they love. But whats the point of that if the majority of improvements aren't deemed important or (more importantly) saleable enough to make them profitable changes for CCP to implement.
The PR of saying the CSM players are elected to help manage and govern the game sounds great, but the reality of that was always going to conflict with the working CCP business model.
Its admirable they try to involve the players more, but until CCP can commit proper resource to improving the worst parts of the game they probably know fully well about already : then "brainstorming" new ideas and such is a luxury of time most of their devs can ill afford.
So, keep up the good work CSM, but expect to be talking amoungst yourselves until your ideas align with something saleable and profitable for CCP to implement. Oh and the serious problems you raise will remain ignored because unless its a quick fix - they dont have the resource. Happy days!
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MILK Monk
Knights of the Silver Dawn Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.04 14:36:00 -
[39]
it was mentioned many times here that CSM has little power. It is not good to hear this because CSM are representatives of paying customers.
The "problem" here is that when you have company then you have small customers and big customers. When big customer have issues with your company then you do your best to manage it to make them happy. However there is no such thing as big customer in EVE. We all pay same and even if you pay for 10 accounts you are still little drop in the sea of all customers.
But CSM are elected by hundreds or thousands of paying customer thus they definitelly should have mandate to press on CCP... in ideal world maybe... __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.01.04 16:33:00 -
[40]
It is very disappointing to hear how little direct contact the CSM has with CCP. Granted, the CSM can't provide anything the forums don't, but at least it can be a way to discuss issues without all the trolling. In some ways, it is also disappointing that the CSM has no direct effect on the game, but in much the same way, that is also a blessing. Having worked on large projects before, "Design By Committee" is a terrible way to operate. It's a death knell.
Best to find one person with vision, and follow that vision to the end. When the product arrives, it will be edgy and pure, perhaps appeal to a smaller audience but that appeal will resonate strongly - instead of something diluted and trying to please everyone all the time, and only half-succeeding in doing so anyways.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.05 22:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44 You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
Kim Wilde
Gallente Covenant
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Posted - 2010.01.05 23:01:00 -
[42]
even more telling is the lack of communication with ccp even if ccp lets the csm have limited power and whatnot then lack of comments and approval or even a discussion shows that the commitement at ccp runs just skin deep atleast thats how i read the end results of the csm logs
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Jelzid
Caldari GSZ Magnum Opus.
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Posted - 2010.01.06 15:28:00 -
[43]
I think my hopes for the CSM were not very extravagant, so I'm happy to see that the efforts of the council members and those involved from CCP's end are yielding some positive results.
On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
Just a suggestion.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.06 18:31:00 -
[44]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44 You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
YES... someone finally remembered!
The CSM is broken in 2 different areas
1: Lack of true communication from CCP. 2: Lack of accountability on the part of CSM Council members.
"I Got's Boobs" and "I Don't give a #### about NDA's" should have been tarred/feathered/banned/and thrown out on there asses for what they pulled....
Sorry... but that's how I feel about it. It's what I would expect to happen to me as well if I did said actions!
If it wasn't for my real life situation at the moment.... id be working hard to prepare for CSM 5 myself... but in all honesty I find trouble just getting the driving force to lift a finger because when it gets right down to it.... how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public. Top that off with the reason WHY they are waiting.... fan fest of course! Is this what the true intention and point of CSM? Some stupid contest?
Granted... the issue/idea "bypassed up by Mazz" was likely trashed by CCP for obvious reasons... and the public outcry was furiously loud... and flatly ignored by the overall CSM with prissy excuses and claims that CCP told them to do it while CCP was silent... which is not unusal considering. Not to mention the canned response of "you don't know what its like", "why don't you run for CSM and try better yourself?"
The point is not so much about the proposal... but that it was a precedent set forth that made everyone scream that the CSM is a waste of time even louder than before.
Think about it... how does this look to people when you decide to ignore them? How would you feel??
Therein lies the main problem of the anti-CSM party. You can make all the claims you want... zero confidence strikes like what Mazz instigated.... or Lark for that matter... will ruin your reputation in a heartbeat. No ones going to vote for that kind of BS political crap when you pull stunts like that.
All that's left are fan clubs and alliances with internal agendas who have vested interests in pushing there ideas hard.
I for one agree with De... I just can't scream as loudly because its just not worth it anymore.
But I will make damn sure people remember what happened... Funny enough I have a feeling I won't need to. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
ForumAltPost
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Posted - 2010.01.06 21:46:00 -
[45]
In the end, does it honestly matter? CSM? I am unsure what was done in the past and I don't know what happened, then again, does it really matter? The fact that it -is- a joke, CCP doesn't give -real- feedback to the players and instead have mock poster children 'elected' to bring our views and concerns to them when they have plenty upon plenty of posts telling these selectively going deaf people what is wrong and what isn't liked. Much less the horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible (and I couldn't put that word enough even if it took up 4 pages of the forum) response/feedback/replying to players who what is it, have a 61 page thread going on? And, when some of them do reply its full of misinformation (target painting dreadnoughts), vague information, and half hung promises. This is a great game with major dynamics and a wonderful opportunity to make friends (And enemies) around the world, but when it comes down to it. Its the players that make this game, the politics, the drama, the excitement of you and many other people around the world cheering together as you wipe out a fleet.
Then on the other end, you have the what seems to be currently bumbling dev team and this CSM council. I get better information from other players then I do from a Dev team that gives the wrong information altogether and end up wasting player's time on the test server. Oh... and maybe CCP responding to the playerbase should be on the top of the CSM agenda but I'm pretty sure its going end up being some sickening self-serving BS.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2010.01.07 12:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Drake Draconis how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public.
Not voting at all doesn't prevent them. It only creates the illusion that the majority of the players voted for these people.
The CSM vote even has an abstain option - so if you don't like any candidates, you can at least vote without voting. The abstained votes are counted as well, so they may eventually have some impact, if enough people vote but don't elect anyone. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Drake Draconis how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public.
Not voting at all doesn't prevent them. It only creates the illusion that the majority of the players voted for these people.
The CSM vote even has an abstain option - so if you don't like any candidates, you can at least vote without voting. The abstained votes are counted as well, so they may eventually have some impact, if enough people vote but don't elect anyone.
The problem still remains... no one will vote for a system that's broken. They would rather go make ISK. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2010.01.08 07:48:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Drake Draconis The problem still remains... no one will vote for a system that's broken. They would rather go make ISK.
But the only way to ever get it fixed is by using the system, not ignoring it. It doesn't take that long to vote. |
Far Wanderer
Gallente Dominium Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.01.09 06:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jelzid On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
That's a pretty good idea if you ask me.
If you post this on the Assembly Hall I'll sure vote for it. :)
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2010.01.09 11:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Far Wanderer
Originally by: Jelzid On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
That's a pretty good idea if you ask me.
If you post this on the Assembly Hall I'll sure vote for it. :)
You do know this could backfire, it could end up making the CSM look worse than it actually is very easily as well. I'm not certain how that is possible, but I have it on reasonably good authority that anything is.
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CommmanderInChief
Unorganised Crime
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Posted - 2010.01.11 12:59:00 -
[51]
Quote: John Zastrow (Zastrow):
I am frankly, disappointed in the CSM. I think the idea of a focus group of players is great, and many games and MMORPGs have done similar things in the past. Some other MMOs I remember would have players elected to be their in-game profession's "champion" and talk to devs about their issues, and that was very effective at getting player concerns communicated. The CSM is an idea with huge potential to be exploited, I just don't think it's been done with EVE yet. Our contact with CCP is hilariously limited. The only time we ever had real back-and-forth talks with devs was at the summit. That's it. A single weekend for feedback. The CSM are among the most dedicated of players. We all worked and strove to make this game a better place but I feel we were and are woefully underutilized. I have no idea why this is. I do know that there are some devs who are very receptive to the CSM's thoughts, yet others gave me the impression they think we're bat**** insane, and others still who act like a father humoring his child, patiently smiling as we talk without actually listening to us.
I know what the CSM is and what it isn't. We're not devs. We're not here to make decisions about the future of the game. But We SHOULD be the dev's focus group. I envision the Devs having their internal brainstorming sessions then afterwards coming to us: "Ok CSMs, what would the player base think of x" .. but that's not what happens. The CSM works independently. We talk to players, we argue amongst ourselves, and just a couple times in our six-month term are we graced with the attention of a dev to hear our collected thoughts. This system is just not effective. With a weekly or biweekly meeting with CCP we could tell Nozh that the players hate his capship changes but like Abathur's, or we could tell Chronotis how awful his Dominion devblog reads before he dumps it into the laps of a confused and angry player base. We should be half approaching CCP with player concerns, and half CCP coming to *US* for feedback. I enjoyed being a CSM, obviously, as I ran for a second term. I made good friends, I had a great time in Iceland, but I will not let these good experiences distract me from the reality: the CSM is nowhere near as effective as it could be and SHOULD be.
If this is true then this goes completely against what CCPs commitment said it was going to be and the whole point of the CSM. But to be honest the CSM is a shambles and a joke..sorry but it is. It just goes to prove that CCP dont, and never have given a toss about their own player base. I mean for example they go hold interviews with lots of other companies say about expansions, whilst they stayed tight lipped when their own community are screaming for info (dominion was a fine example) This CSM was created after people complained CCP never listen - errrm whats changed? nothing..
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Eternal Bellend
L33T Death's Head Carebear K1LL3R5
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Posted - 2010.01.12 23:21:00 -
[52]
I agree with Zastrow, CCP do not use the CSM enough and they now look too tokenistic. The lasy elections have not been well promoted or supported and interest is dying as people see they have become more of a barrier between the player base and CCP rather than a communication channel.
A prime example of how they could be used more is for stuff like the Gallenete experimental storyline missions which:
a) Force you to go many jumps into low sec (yep PVE ship through PVP pirate space) b) Are FW warfare linked so take you to systems with FW pilots waiting for you to (so if the pirates miss they won't!) c) Take people to the same few systems (because of the FW storyline link) so those gates are player pirate camped as they wait for the missions runners to appear to give easy targets d) Are way above the agent level you are running for e.g. the level 2 storylines are harder than level 4 missions e) Give a crappy reward of an implant that is worth about 100k ISK
These experimental missions were introduced as a surprise in Dominion, with it appears little thought or understanding of the mission runner player base by the moron EVE Storyline Board in Atlanta with NO TESTING on Singularity. In the Dev Blog words they were really excited about these missions which shows what idiots some of the CCP developers and PVE content writers have become and how little they understand or care about the PVE player base.
My hope would be that prior brainstorming and focus grouping with the CSM would show:
1) How bad an idea these missions are to inflict on PVE mission runners 2) Would may be get them at least tested on the TEST server first
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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.01.14 02:12:00 -
[53]
I think the only way to be fair is to include CSM's who are neither alliance or nul-sec corp affiliated. The current setup is 0.0 biased in the extreme and the low sec and high sec people loose out.
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Clone 1
Ministry of Mojo
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Posted - 2010.01.15 11:22:00 -
[54]
Yep, looks like Zastrow got it right in this 'post and forget' devblog.
-------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
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Posted - 2010.01.15 12:50:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sedilis on 15/01/2010 12:51:37 It saddens me to think the CMS is not taken seriously by CCP but looking at some of the minutes it is hardly surprising
Quoting from the May 16th meeting:
Quote: Oz interjected mid rant and pointed out that FW backlog resource allocation was not on the agenda. Ankhe also demanded that CCP deal with the exploit and proclaimed that no one at CCP had a clue. CCP Xhagen thought Ankhe had made her point and should stick to the agenda.
I don't know about you guys but that is not how people conduct themselves in meetings I attend. The fact it happens is laughable. The fact it was written up as such in minutes make the CSM look like an utter joke.
Try acting with a bit of professionalism guys and you might be taken more seriously.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.16 05:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44 You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
free publicity \o/
be sure to tell them i am a girl when you campaign against me, and give them the voting link to make sure they know what not to click on <3
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.01.16 10:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44 You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
free publicity \o/
be sure to tell them i am a girl when you campaign against me, and give them the voting link to make sure they know what not to click on <3
I don't know who you are, but that came across as an A/S/L joke. In the CSM discussion Devblog thread...
Being as goodnatured as I can right now, for I want to shake you. I'm going to give you some intel on this game and community. Memo: "This is serious business."/"Srs Bsznss"/"Internet Spaceships is serious business."
Don't run for CSM if you don't understand that we are trying to solve EVE's issues so we can actually play the game to the fullest. And not ever have to hear about bugs, lag, and WoW.
7 |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.16 20:40:00 -
[58]
i do say there's no such thing as bad publicity!
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet
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Posted - 2010.01.17 12:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: mazzilliu i do say there's no such thing as bad publicity!
Shut up.
CSM is not about publicity and "look at me, look at me," it's about telling CCP that we have matters we want to see answers/solutions to.
I care about this game. I want people representing the community to CCP, not themselves.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
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Posted - 2010.01.17 23:17:00 -
[60]
Good Summary by Valentijn (Diedra Vaal). IME it's an accurate summary, and does really highlight what needs to be improved by all parties (CCP/CSM). Zastrow's comment is also a good reminder that there is no room for complacency if the players are to get the maximum benefit out of the opportunity of the CSM.
It's never an easy ride to be the CSM, however if each council only strives to incrementally improve upon the last, it will be 10 years of eve (only 5 councils remaining until them) when we see awesome impact and the realization of the potential.
I hope the current CSM can make a big jump in performance and commitment (particularly in the area of communication). Now the end of year Holiday period is over, hopefully there is nothing stopping them making the leap!
Buy ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in the Eve-Online Store |
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