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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.12.28 15:17:00 -
[1]
Several members of the third Council of Stellar Management share their thoughts on the third Council in CCP Xhagen's newest dev blog.
Fallout
Associate Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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Clone 1
Occision
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Posted - 2009.12.28 15:31:00 -
[2]
Am I out of line thinking that Zastrow's opinion is one that is generally reflective of a lot of the eve community? The other comments I think only plßmßs the CSM idea or CCP.
Do you think there is a way to deal with the general apathy that a lot of players feel towards the CSM as the voting % shows.
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The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.12.28 15:50:00 -
[3]
What Zastrow said.
The CSM has not been used as a tool to get feedback on major changes that were neither tested nor thought out well. It's sad, but in its current form, the CSM is nigh useless.
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 Originally by: CCP Prism X
In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.12.28 16:52:00 -
[4]
The problem with the CSM is institutional. The various mechanisms imposed upon it limited the ability of the CSM members to engage and keep engaged the players in the process.
Despite the democratic marketing blurp offered at the inauguration of the CSM, the process lacks any of the basic democratic mechanisms. There is no incentive, nor imperative for the CSM or CCP, to address any of the issues that live among the players, or for CCP to act upon any of the issues brought forward by the CSM. Both parties are at large to ignore or either censor such proceedings, if necessary by using the non-disclosure agreement as a shield. Neither the players nor subsequently the CSM has any means of exerting any pressure to discuss or act upon any issue at any time. Even when the CSM brings to discussion such issues, which to their credit they appear to do at times, there is no leverage on CCP to actually act, or even respond to them.
As such, one can only wonder what possible use the CSM can have. As a communication channel it is limited and selective, and in general a poor substitute for the forum. Although I can see that for CCP is must be useful to externalise reading the forums. As an instrument of change bought forward from the players, it is also limited, but in addition, entirely dependent on CCP's cooperation. And that is, when it is counts, clearly in short supply (there have been several examples of this recently and before).
And so, with the fourth iteration around the corner, the CSM remains powerless and ineffective. Despite the over-optimistic words in the dev-blog about process, it looks like it will remain so. A nice marketing ploy to generate headlines and devblogs it may be, but with very little to offer to the players, beyond perhaps a paid holiday trip to Iceland for the winners of the popularity contest that it has devolved to. And that, naturally, is expressed through voter counts.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:05:00 -
[5]
Zastrow nailed it.
Less PR, more development.
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Brendana Fortescue
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:09:00 -
[6]
CSM 3 was a disaster and only few people understood the game mechanic and players needs.
Most of them have torpedoed FW proposals when clearly they had no clue. Luckly CCP heard to general eve population. |
Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:11:00 -
[7]
I think Zastrow hit the nail on the head... it's what I and the rest of us envisioned what the CSM would be like. At the moment the CSM really pretty flacid with regards to 'power' and influence. A fine experiment and a novel idea but not utilised to it's full potential.
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Treelox
Amarr
Evolution
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:32:00 -
[8]
Having known some others very well who were in previous CSM's and talking to them about it, I have to wholeheartedly agree with Zastrow, in his summation of the lack of utilization by CCP of the CSM.
Sig Zone
Signature picture is inappropriate. Please change. ~Weatherman
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pottsey on 28/12/2009 17:43:48
If CSM are doing their job well how come we have such major issues not fixed some for a year. Massive sound problems, worse now than 2 years ago why has CSM not bought this up? why are CCP not commenting on it? Worse graphics like shadows that have taken a massive step backwards, now worse than when the game first shipped. Then there are new problems like the real bad new storyline missions just added that most players hate and are very unfair to Gallente players. But no CSM or CCP comments? If CSM was just talked to and they had an idea about the players these missions would never have been implanted.
Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM.
EDIT: Reading Zastrow bit it sounds more like the problem is CCP not the CSM.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Mkah Mvet
Chumly Incorporated
Beyond-Control
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:43:00 -
[10]
I feel ripped off that, after promoting as much of my alliance as I could to vote as intelligently as they could, all the bull crap with Dominion happened. I want the option for an 'abstain' vote on the next CSM (if I'm even playing EVE any more by then) so I can register that there isn't voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction.
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evemonbase
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Posted - 2009.12.28 19:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mkah Mvet
I want the option for an 'abstain' vote on the next CSM (if I'm even playing EVE any more by then) so I can register that there isn't voter apathy, but voter dissatisfaction.
The option to 'abstain' was there when I voted this time.
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.12.28 21:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pottsey
Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM.
Sound was brought up, in fact after discussing this with one of the main sound guys a second document was sent detailing wishes and complaints. However, the sound engine is a complex thing and it cant be fixed easily. Luckily, unlike a year ago, CCP now have a few dedicated sound devs on staff :)
Director of Education :: EVE University
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente
VA Holding
Void Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.28 23:59:00 -
[13]
After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones ( ) they lost all credibility in my eyes.
I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances.
Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this!
Clear Skies - The Movie
ROTDK is recruiting
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.29 01:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes.
I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances.
Which FW topics were blown off? Some were rejected because the wording was vague and the explanation and arguements for them were pretty off key (you FW kids can blame yourselves for that your elected rep, Erik Finnigan, although a thouroughly decent guy and pleasure to work with, was hardly the pinnacle of FW experience) but a good deal got pushed through.
Hull Rep Drones. Raised, voted on, done. Took about 30 seconds all in all, if only all of our issues had been like that.
Once again there's lots of whining about the CSM but not a lot of doing. If you want to change things then run yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then contact a few of the delegates and ask them to champion some proposals. They aren't plugged into the forums 24/7 and some good topics slip through.
There's plenty of room for improvement within the CSM but it needs more support from the Devs and more importantly more support from the players.
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rgreat
Gallente
OEG
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.29 02:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: rgreat on 29/12/2009 02:43:48
First, CSM members must have direct close to realtime communication access to developers.
MSN, ICQ, etc... or at least e-mail.
Also, allow CSM members to give out sizable salary bonuses (CCP Funded) to selected DEV's for the job well done.
That will give developers some motivation to actually listen to CSM...
.
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.29 03:21:00 -
[16]
o// I applaud CCP for the Zastrow comment being included.
But I am concerned about all these proposals being NDA'd all the time. If a fix is supposed to be put in as soon as discovered, like say missing Hull Rep Drones,[not T2 Medium/Heavy/Fighter Mining Drones ], or MSs not being a Logistic Ship class anymore[crappy Clone Vats anyway], is that fix supposed to be compiled for an expansion or should it be given a scrum team and done in a month, fortnight, week?
They mentioned Industrial changes, I have not seen many. I've seen tweaks, but not actually improving Mining as a profession. Missions in highsec still unbalance all the region markets, and Sov changes had major bugs that were ignored.
What is the deal? The game is growing bigger, faster, but I don't see dedicated polish. WoW does not[and should not] win game innovation awards, they have Blizzard's attention to detail on the polish. Cannot believe I'm congratulating WoW.
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Hura Achurai
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Posted - 2009.12.29 06:33:00 -
[17]
I no longer read the cms forums, nor vote. Why? the cms is a fraud, they do nothing. A shield for ccp to hide behind while pretending to care - nothing more nothing less.
If you are not a large alliance with CCP members your needs will not be heard, not cared about and never addressed.
Whatever lie CCP wants told the CMS will tell, gladly.
I personally know the CMS to misrepresent their effectiveness and responsibilities.
Ours is a history negating my participation ever again in any sham called the CMS and all the blogs claiming otherwise is a repeat of the original misrepresentation of truth. On these very forums, CCP admits this! so - Why vote?
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente
VA Holding
Void Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.29 10:17:00 -
[18]
Oh, gimme a break. I can't be bothered to look up the minutes but I think all FW proposals were nuked except some very general 'please look more at FW'-one or something. And if my feeble memory serves the exact same thing happened in the CSM before that.
It was obvious from the minutes that most CSM members had zero interest in non-0.0 stuff and nuked the proposals solely on that basis.
Two years down the road, and FW is still as broken as ever.
I haven't followed CSM closely since then, but of course your contribution to the credibility of the CSM (i.e. insider trading) goes a long way to help players take the CSM serously. As you are obviously proud of your actions I won't discuss that further with you but my opinion that you should have been permabanned from eve and your character should have been incinerated in the deepest pits of hell are on record.
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes.
I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances.
Which FW topics were blown off? Some were rejected because the wording was vague and the explanation and arguements for them were pretty off key (you FW kids can blame yourselves for that your elected rep, Erik Finnigan, although a thouroughly decent guy and pleasure to work with, was hardly the pinnacle of FW experience) but a good deal got pushed through.
Hull Rep Drones. Raised, voted on, done. Took about 30 seconds all in all, if only all of our issues had been like that.
Once again there's lots of whining about the CSM but not a lot of doing. If you want to change things then run yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to do that then contact a few of the delegates and ask them to champion some proposals. They aren't plugged into the forums 24/7 and some good topics slip through.
There's plenty of room for improvement within the CSM but it needs more support from the Devs and more importantly more support from the players.
Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this!
Clear Skies - The Movie
ROTDK is recruiting
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2009.12.30 02:40:00 -
[19]
And in the end the thing that says the most about this Devblog, and the CSM in general, is how few replies there are on this thread.
Congrats to all involved. A game defining feature, one talked up to the press and put forward as a poster-child for how Eve is different, better, than the other MMOs out there. And no one cares. Its like almost every other new feature added to the game; great on paper, it never works as advertised, and even though we're promised they designed it with the idea of continually adding to it as time went forward... it just stagnates and stays broken and incomplete for 1, 2, 3, 4 years later.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2009.12.30 08:44:00 -
[20]
Eve is an incredibly buggy piece of software full of issues. Since the playerbase has been screaming for years, it seems CCP has long become numb to the requests. At the same time, a large portion of the devs don't even play the game anymore. To put it negatively, the CSM was created to serve as a meatshield for CCP from those pesky players and turn down their volume.
While the CSM has proven to be useful to get bigger and more complex changes done, the fact that the playerbase has to raise an issue with the CSM and take multiple hurdles to get obvious bugs fixed shows that there is a serious feedback problem and that CCP has QA issues, but that is hardly news.
So hereby I thank the CSM for their efforts and criticize CCP for valiantly ignoring issues and becoming more and more detached from the playerbase, essentially agreeing with Zastrow.
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El Covah
LOCKDOWN.
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Posted - 2009.12.30 09:01:00 -
[21]
Zastrow pretty much described it. For the CSM to work as some kind of filter or utility for player communication CCP must communicate more with the CSM which should be easy to implement with all the manpower CCP has e.g. just put one person in charge for doing it. The invested ISK (RL-ISK this time) should be a very good investement. Otherwise it is utilized far under its possibilities and in the end voting turnout will get lower and lower.
Player input is vital fpr the game we all love, and something like the elected CSM could is a real improvement to divide between the usual "whining" (which is really common here) and real issues - it just has to be used by CCP.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2009.12.30 09:55:00 -
[22]
Adding to my previous post:
Other companies spend fortunes to analyze the profile and demands of the customer base. CCP is in the lucky position of having many customers actively trying to convey their wishes and the problems they are experiencing. Yet there seems to be internal resistance to listening to that. You can speculate as to why:
- devs think we are bat**** crazy or lack the technical competence (tho there is an incredibly large portion of IT professionals in the player base)
- devs fear a loss of control over their baby, dev ego etc.
- the development method/habit/company culture does not envision outside feedback
- devs are under too much time pressure
- CCP has grown too big, issues get hampered by organizational matters and no one feels responsible for a specific issue
- the CSM is not taken seriously by CCP/inside groups/specific devs
In any case, this matter can only be solved by CCP itself. Players are pretty much powerless (except for canceling subscriptions as protest). The company is essentially a service provider and as such must make listening to customers part of the its culture. The development process must be changed to include CSM for feedback (yeah I hear the planners groaning). Tho this will consume more time and money, it more then makes up for that through increased product quality (all QA guys know this). I wonder if CCP is capable of such changes...
If eve wasn't such a great game concept, it would have been killed a long time ago by all the issues it had/has and by how CCP deals with the player base.
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.12.31 11:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
After the way the CSM nuked FW proposals in favour off...still find this hard to take seriously...hull repair drones () they lost all credibility in my eyes.
I feel they're just there to take the punches for CCP and the only items seriously treated are those that concern the big 0.0 alliances.
This made me laugh well the part with the hull repair drones
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2009.12.31 11:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Adding to my previous post:
Other companies spend fortunes to analyze the profile and demands of the customer base. CCP is in the lucky position of having many customers actively trying to convey their wishes and the problems they are experiencing. Yet there seems to be internal resistance to listening to that. You can speculate as to why:
- devs think we are bat**** crazy or lack the technical competence (tho there is an incredibly large portion of IT professionals in the player base)
- devs fear a loss of control over their baby, dev ego etc.
- the development method/habit/company culture does not envision outside feedback
- devs are under too much time pressure
- CCP has grown too big, issues get hampered by organizational matters and no one feels responsible for a specific issue
- the CSM is not taken seriously by CCP/inside groups/specific devs
In any case, this matter can only be solved by CCP itself. Players are pretty much powerless (except for canceling subscriptions as protest). The company is essentially a service provider and as such must make listening to customers part of the its culture. The development process must be changed to include CSM for feedback (yeah I hear the planners groaning). Tho this will consume more time and money, it more then makes up for that through increased product quality (all QA guys know this). I wonder if CCP is capable of such changes...
If eve wasn't such a great game concept, it would have been killed a long time ago by all the issues it had/has and by how CCP deals with the player base.
Very well written. I wish to add only one thing CSM selection process needs to change to prevent the 0.0 issues overule all other concerns. So we dont get in situation where ppl have to vote on changes in the part of the game they never played.
I think it would have to be some sort of qualifying round or spearate elections for spearate areas of interest like only ppl that are enganged and active in FW can A be a candidate and B can vote for the FW delegate.
That would make the CSM more competent. As it is now I fully understand the smiles on the devs faces. Half the candidates have no fuking clue wth they voting for.
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Alekseyev Karrde
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Posted - 2009.12.31 16:59:00 -
[25]
Somewhat predictable because i'm a sitting delegate but I think the CSM is doing some valuable stuff and the candidates elected are pretty strong. The voting system isnt perfect but of those people with the dedication to run and serve the best of the pool do tend to rise above, even with the low interest from the player base (from a participation % perspective).
Would i like to see more voter participation? Of course i would. More opportunities to interact with and advise CCP? Naturally. But I dont think either concern is a reason the CSM should be scrapped or maligned. My prediction is that as it evolves, it will get better. Stay tuned.
---
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2009.12.31 18:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 28/12/2009 17:43:48
If CSM are doing their job well how come we have such major issues not fixed some for a year. Massive sound problems, worse now than 2 years ago why has CSM not bought this up? why are CCP not commenting on it? Worse graphics like shadows that have taken a massive step backwards, now worse than when the game first shipped. Then there are new problems like the real bad new storyline missions just added that most players hate and are very unfair to Gallente players. But no CSM or CCP comments? If CSM was just talked to and they had an idea about the players these missions would never have been implanted.
Core features like sound should not be broken for almost a year. What are CSM doing about this? There are problems that a large amount of players do not like, for example the paint job done on the navy mega and other navy ships. Yet CSM are not representing the players on this or CCP are just ignoring us and CSM.
EDIT: Reading Zastrow bit it sounds more like the problem is CCP not the CSM.
IMO, the sad truth is that the CSM cannot really do much.
As Zastrow said: they got to talk to CCP once and that did not feel very good either.
So it's little more than a pre-screening of forum and in-game opinions from players and communicating them to CCP again.
Nothing that could make a noticeable change anyway.
If CCP decides to scrap changes they started to implement they will do so.
If they decide to postpone improvements on the sound engine they will do so.
If they decide performance tests can be done after pusblishing a release they will do so.
Seeing the first month of Dominion really makes me wonder how well the CSM process (not the people involved!!) really works.
CCP Xhagens conclusion in this devlog sounds not very convincing to me... 
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.31 22:02:00 -
[27]
You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs.", CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players make take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.12.31 23:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Future Mutant on 31/12/2009 23:15:59
the csm is a joke. They do nothing but propose nerfs to hisec and buffs to null. There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community.
The csm represents their master null corp. As a side bonus they get to use insider information to skew the markets. None of them should be taken seriously and judging by the vote turnout last time they arent.
Next csm- if you vote, vote to abstain. At least then your not supporting a corrupt organization who doesnt want your feedback and is only looking out for themselves.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.01.01 08:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
Then we have a chicken and egg problem.
Originally by: Future Mutant
Edited by: Future Mutant on 31/12/2009 23:15:59They do nothing but propose nerfs to hisec and buffs to null.
This is ofc not true. Dominion was the first "buff" (if you even want to call it that) to 0.0 in a long time. Normally it's carebears who get the love. If you look at the issues raised by CSM you'll see that the vast majority benefits all player groups.
Quote:
There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community.
While such behavior would be despicable, link or it didn't happen.
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Intangible Mirage
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Posted - 2010.01.01 14:12:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Intangible Mirage on 01/01/2010 14:12:08
Zastrow hit it right on. As other people have said CSM is a meat shield for CCP instead of an organization to propose game changing changes.
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Orgell Evaan
Minmatar
Tax Avoidance Through Alliterative Syndication
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:22:00 -
[31]
Voting for your favorite sockpuppet on the CSM is like voting in American Idol. A total waste of time.
As it is, I can't play the game because of horrendous CPU & framerate problems, and the bug team evidently took the holidays off.
(Note to CCP: DO NOT push major updates right before the holidays.) Basic problems still exist, but the devs are busy adding new shiny instead of repairing base code.
I'd rant more, but TBH, CCP isn't really worth the effort.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.01 18:03:00 -
[32]
What frustrates me most regarding the CSM is what a great idea it is. CCP has created a wonderful tool to facilitate communication between the player base and the devs. Such a pity that they keep this tool on their wall rather than in their toolbox.
I would love to see a list of these 90 issues, particularly the ones that were accepted by CCP. Whatever they were, it wasn't enough to keep Dominion from being a disaster. The new Sov system is barely better than the old and only a threadnaught prevented the new motherships from being lost. While nice to have, are hull rep drones as far as CCP is willing to listen?
Please work with the CSM CCP. Increasingly there seems to be a disconnect between the game the Devs see and the game the players see, especially where 0.0 ships and space are concerned. A lot of nastiness could have been averted had Nozh let the CSM preview his dev blog before throwing it out on the forum.
You need to listen to your players and you need to let the CSM help you do that.
Colonies and Capitals |
Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.01 23:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Future Mutant on 01/01/2010 23:35:13
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Future Mutant
There was a post made a week ago by a csm member getting irate because someone actually contacted him via eve mail. Yea sure sounds like they represent the community.
While such behavior would be despicable, link or it didn't happen.
Link to where it happened
And this particular case is relatively minor. The forums are full of how csm sold their services, how they represent only themselves and their interests.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.01.02 00:07:00 -
[34]
As has been mentioned the CSM are not Devs (Developers for slow people), they don't work for CCP they hold no real power other than what issues they decide to take to CCP when they speak/meet with them, that is all they can do.
If you spend a week in the Assembly Hall checking out all the issues that are brought up so the CSM can choose to take it to CCP or not you'll quickly see how numerous the ideas and changes players want. Which in itself isn't such a bad thing as many things have been needing fixing or tweaking for years or many months. Add onto those all the 'known' issues CCP is 'working on' or has silently allowed to be 'features' as well as those issues/ideas raised previously by other CSM Councils that are 'in the works'. They can choose to inquire about those past CSM issues and likely be told 'we are working on it' which then opens the choice of pressing the issue further and likely being told the same thing in a less friendly way.
Now recall that supposedly CCP spends half of their development time fixing bugs and issues and the other half adding new content, so that's less than 50% of their resources to fixes, when you consider that the majority of player issues fall into that area do you really think much is getting done on what the playerbase wants just because CCP's pet foucs group that they don't even really use to their fullest says?
Take a look in the suggested features Forum, you can spend several hours or perhaps days reading all the ideas people have had, some have been implemented as the thread is filled with years of requests/ideas.
Finally any representative is that at best a representative of a large population and will always default to their own ideals/opinions or those of a group that has some power over them. There isn't a single player out there that will mirror your view on every issue that can or would come up no matter how close your playstyles are. Anyone that put some effort into understanding what the CSM is and what they do would come to same basic conclusion below and that one of their own members has stated in the blog.
TLDR: CSM have no real power beyond choosing the issue/ideas presented by players to bring to CCP's attention from there it is all on CCP to do something. CCP doesn't take advantage of a dedicated group of players who could provide insight into changes or ideas CCP has about the game.
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Far Wanderer
Gallente
Dominium Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:52:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Far Wanderer on 02/01/2010 11:53:48
Based on the relative "youth" of the CSM (that is, how long it's been an active entity) I'm content thus far with what the CSM has done and how it works.
We have a system in place to raise issues, those issues are discussed by the CSM and some of them are submitted to CCP for review (90 such issues were submitted by CSM3, according to Dierdra Vaal).
CCP, like any company, takes time to implement changes and make sure "everything works" (more or less) before releasing them in expansions. That 19 such CSM-sponsored changes were including in Dominion is a noteworthy number. As players we should appreciate that this happened.
Note this isn't the same as saying that's all we should hope for. On the contrary, like many players I expect CCP (and the CSM) to further streamline this process and set a goal to both submit and implement changes more rapidly.
I appreciate John Zastrow's position that CCP should communicate more with the CSM, but I don't believe a weekly or biweekly meeting is smart or even practical. As John himself stated, CSM members are not Devs.
Devs need time to do their work just as the CSM needs time to collect player feedback and write smart, articulately worded and convincing arguments to CCP about why the issues CSM have chosen to focus on and ultimately submit are important and require CCPs utmost attention to fix. I can't see biweekly/weekly meetings as doing anything more than slowing the whole process down.
I don't know that I care for the idea of the CSM being a sounding board. I'd rather CCP put new ideas out through the information portal and let the player base debate it out in response threads. CSM can watch/participate/lead in these threads and do their job from there.
My 2 ISK, at any rate. 
|
Ottman
Amarr
LoneWolf Mining
|
Posted - 2010.01.03 04:20:00 -
[36]
well one thing to think about, there was already a scandal with csm misusing knowledge gained at ccp, so do you really think anyone will tell ccp a upcoming fleet fight ?
nope of course not, just to ensure no one of csm can get knowledge and maybe give the information to someone else outside csm.
the best way is that ccp try to make kind of automatic adjustment about bandwith etc. to improve gameplay about fleet fights.
MfG ottman
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2010.01.03 06:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: el caido
Zastrow nailed it.
Less PR, more development.
+1
--
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
|
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
|
Posted - 2010.01.03 11:45:00 -
[38]
I liked Zastrow's feedback and guessed as much that would be the case.
The CSM, as some of the most enthusiastic players of the game would always want more time to "brainstorm" with the devs discussing possibilities and improvements to the game they love. But whats the point of that if the majority of improvements aren't deemed important or (more importantly) saleable enough to make them profitable changes for CCP to implement.
The PR of saying the CSM players are elected to help manage and govern the game sounds great, but the reality of that was always going to conflict with the working CCP business model.
Its admirable they try to involve the players more, but until CCP can commit proper resource to improving the worst parts of the game they probably know fully well about already : then "brainstorming" new ideas and such is a luxury of time most of their devs can ill afford.
So, keep up the good work CSM, but expect to be talking amoungst yourselves until your ideas align with something saleable and profitable for CCP to implement. Oh and the serious problems you raise will remain ignored because unless its a quick fix - they dont have the resource. Happy days!
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MILK Monk
Knights of the Silver Dawn
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.01.04 14:36:00 -
[39]
it was mentioned many times here that CSM has little power. It is not good to hear this because CSM are representatives of paying customers.
The "problem" here is that when you have company then you have small customers and big customers. When big customer have issues with your company then you do your best to manage it to make them happy. However there is no such thing as big customer in EVE. We all pay same and even if you pay for 10 accounts you are still little drop in the sea of all customers.
But CSM are elected by hundreds or thousands of paying customer thus they definitelly should have mandate to press on CCP... in ideal world maybe...
__________________________________
I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
Andrea Griffin
|
Posted - 2010.01.04 16:33:00 -
[40]
It is very disappointing to hear how little direct contact the CSM has with CCP. Granted, the CSM can't provide anything the forums don't, but at least it can be a way to discuss issues without all the trolling. In some ways, it is also disappointing that the CSM has no direct effect on the game, but in much the same way, that is also a blessing. Having worked on large projects before, "Design By Committee" is a terrible way to operate. It's a death knell.
Best to find one person with vision, and follow that vision to the end. When the product arrives, it will be edgy and pure, perhaps appeal to a smaller audience but that appeal will resonate strongly - instead of something diluted and trying to please everyone all the time, and only half-succeeding in doing so anyways.
|
De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
The Obsidian Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 22:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44
You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
--Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
Kim Wilde
Gallente
Covenant
|
Posted - 2010.01.05 23:01:00 -
[42]
even more telling is the lack of communication with ccp
even if ccp lets the csm have limited power and whatnot
then lack of comments and approval or even a discussion shows that the commitement at ccp runs just skin deep
atleast thats how i read the end results of the csm logs
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Jelzid
Caldari
GSZ
Magnum Opus.
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 15:28:00 -
[43]
I think my hopes for the CSM were not very extravagant, so I'm happy to see that the efforts of the council members and those involved from CCP's end are yielding some positive results.
On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
Just a suggestion.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 18:31:00 -
[44]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44
You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
YES... someone finally remembered!
The CSM is broken in 2 different areas
1: Lack of true communication from CCP.
2: Lack of accountability on the part of CSM Council members.
"I Got's Boobs" and "I Don't give a #### about NDA's" should have been tarred/feathered/banned/and thrown out on there asses for what they pulled....
Sorry... but that's how I feel about it. It's what I would expect to happen to me as well if I did said actions!
If it wasn't for my real life situation at the moment.... id be working hard to prepare for CSM 5 myself... but in all honesty I find trouble just getting the driving force to lift a finger because when it gets right down to it.... how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public. Top that off with the reason WHY they are waiting.... fan fest of course! Is this what the true intention and point of CSM? Some stupid contest?
Granted... the issue/idea "bypassed up by Mazz" was likely trashed by CCP for obvious reasons... and the public outcry was furiously loud... and flatly ignored by the overall CSM with prissy excuses and claims that CCP told them to do it while CCP was silent... which is not unusal considering. Not to mention the canned response of "you don't know what its like", "why don't you run for CSM and try better yourself?"
The point is not so much about the proposal... but that it was a precedent set forth that made everyone scream that the CSM is a waste of time even louder than before.
Think about it... how does this look to people when you decide to ignore them? How would you feel??
Therein lies the main problem of the anti-CSM party. You can make all the claims you want... zero confidence strikes like what Mazz instigated.... or Lark for that matter... will ruin your reputation in a heartbeat.
No ones going to vote for that kind of BS political crap when you pull stunts like that.
All that's left are fan clubs and alliances with internal agendas who have vested interests in pushing there ideas hard.
I for one agree with De... I just can't scream as loudly because its just not worth it anymore.
But I will make damn sure people remember what happened... Funny enough I have a feeling I won't need to.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
ForumAltPost
|
Posted - 2010.01.06 21:46:00 -
[45]
In the end, does it honestly matter? CSM? I am unsure what was done in the past and I don't know what happened, then again, does it really matter? The fact that it -is- a joke, CCP doesn't give -real- feedback to the players and instead have mock poster children 'elected' to bring our views and concerns to them when they have plenty upon plenty of posts telling these selectively going deaf people what is wrong and what isn't liked. Much less the horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible (and I couldn't put that word enough even if it took up 4 pages of the forum) response/feedback/replying to players who what is it, have a 61 page thread going on? And, when some of them do reply its full of misinformation (target painting dreadnoughts), vague information, and half hung promises. This is a great game with major dynamics and a wonderful opportunity to make friends (And enemies) around the world, but when it comes down to it. Its the players that make this game, the politics, the drama, the excitement of you and many other people around the world cheering together as you wipe out a fleet.
Then on the other end, you have the what seems to be currently bumbling dev team and this CSM council. I get better information from other players then I do from a Dev team that gives the wrong information altogether and end up wasting player's time on the test server. Oh... and maybe CCP responding to the playerbase should be on the top of the CSM agenda but I'm pretty sure its going end up being some sickening self-serving BS.
|
Cyberman Mastermind
|
Posted - 2010.01.07 12:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public.
Not voting at all doesn't prevent them. It only creates the illusion that the majority of the players voted for these people.
The CSM vote even has an abstain option - so if you don't like any candidates, you can at least vote without voting. The abstained votes are counted as well, so they may eventually have some impact, if enough people vote but don't elect anyone. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.01.07 16:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind
Originally by: Drake Draconis
how the heck can I show the public its worth to place there vote when you get total ####tards like Mazz who will ignore you and pass a proposal without flinching at the fact it was refused flatly by the public.
Not voting at all doesn't prevent them. It only creates the illusion that the majority of the players voted for these people.
The CSM vote even has an abstain option - so if you don't like any candidates, you can at least vote without voting. The abstained votes are counted as well, so they may eventually have some impact, if enough people vote but don't elect anyone.
The problem still remains... no one will vote for a system that's broken.
They would rather go make ISK.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Cyberman Mastermind
|
Posted - 2010.01.08 07:48:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
The problem still remains... no one will vote for a system that's broken.
They would rather go make ISK.
But the only way to ever get it fixed is by using the system, not ignoring it.
It doesn't take that long to vote. |
Far Wanderer
Gallente
Dominium Brotherhood
|
Posted - 2010.01.09 06:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jelzid
On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
That's a pretty good idea if you ask me.
If you post this on the Assembly Hall I'll sure vote for it. :)
|
Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
|
Posted - 2010.01.09 11:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Far Wanderer
Originally by: Jelzid
On the note of voter participation, while not everyone reads the CSM forum threads, almost everyone reads the patch notes. How about letting people know in the patch notes which issues were raised in the CSM? This way people might get a better sense of the impact of the CSM, and appreciate its worth.
That's a pretty good idea if you ask me.
If you post this on the Assembly Hall I'll sure vote for it. :)
You do know this could backfire, it could end up making the CSM look worse than it actually is very easily as well. I'm not certain how that is possible, but I have it on reasonably good authority that anything is.
|
CommmanderInChief
Unorganised Crime
|
Posted - 2010.01.11 12:59:00 -
[51]
Quote:
John Zastrow (Zastrow):
I am frankly, disappointed in the CSM. I think the idea of a focus group of players is great, and many games and MMORPGs have done similar things in the past. Some other MMOs I remember would have players elected to be their in-game profession's "champion" and talk to devs about their issues, and that was very effective at getting player concerns communicated. The CSM is an idea with huge potential to be exploited, I just don't think it's been done with EVE yet. Our contact with CCP is hilariously limited. The only time we ever had real back-and-forth talks with devs was at the summit. That's it. A single weekend for feedback. The CSM are among the most dedicated of players. We all worked and strove to make this game a better place but I feel we were and are woefully underutilized. I have no idea why this is. I do know that there are some devs who are very receptive to the CSM's thoughts, yet others gave me the impression they think we're bat**** insane, and others still who act like a father humoring his child, patiently smiling as we talk without actually listening to us.
I know what the CSM is and what it isn't. We're not devs. We're not here to make decisions about the future of the game. But We SHOULD be the dev's focus group. I envision the Devs having their internal brainstorming sessions then afterwards coming to us: "Ok CSMs, what would the player base think of x" .. but that's not what happens. The CSM works independently. We talk to players, we argue amongst ourselves, and just a couple times in our six-month term are we graced with the attention of a dev to hear our collected thoughts. This system is just not effective. With a weekly or biweekly meeting with CCP we could tell Nozh that the players hate his capship changes but like Abathur's, or we could tell Chronotis how awful his Dominion devblog reads before he dumps it into the laps of a confused and angry player base. We should be half approaching CCP with player concerns, and half CCP coming to *US* for feedback. I enjoyed being a CSM, obviously, as I ran for a second term. I made good friends, I had a great time in Iceland, but I will not let these good experiences distract me from the reality: the CSM is nowhere near as effective as it could be and SHOULD be.
If this is true then this goes completely against what CCPs commitment said it was going to be and the whole point of the CSM.
But to be honest the CSM is a shambles and a joke..sorry but it is.
It just goes to prove that CCP dont, and never have given a toss about their own player base. I mean for example they go hold interviews with lots of other companies say about expansions, whilst they stayed tight lipped when their own community are screaming for info (dominion was a fine example)
This CSM was created after people complained CCP never listen - errrm whats changed? nothing..
|
Eternal Bellend
L33T Death's Head Carebear K1LL3R5
|
Posted - 2010.01.12 23:21:00 -
[52]
I agree with Zastrow, CCP do not use the CSM enough and they now look too tokenistic. The lasy elections have not been well promoted or supported and interest is dying as people see they have become more of a barrier between the player base and CCP rather than a communication channel.
A prime example of how they could be used more is for stuff like the Gallenete experimental storyline missions which:
a) Force you to go many jumps into low sec (yep PVE ship through PVP pirate space)
b) Are FW warfare linked so take you to systems with FW pilots waiting for you to (so if the pirates miss they won't!)
c) Take people to the same few systems (because of the FW storyline link) so those gates are player pirate camped as they wait for the missions runners to appear to give easy targets
d) Are way above the agent level you are running for e.g. the level 2 storylines are harder than level 4 missions
e) Give a crappy reward of an implant that is worth about 100k ISK
These experimental missions were introduced as a surprise in Dominion, with it appears little thought or understanding of the mission runner player base by the moron EVE Storyline Board in Atlanta with NO TESTING on Singularity. In the Dev Blog words they were really excited about these missions which shows what idiots some of the CCP developers and PVE content writers have become and how little they understand or care about the PVE player base.
My hope would be that prior brainstorming and focus grouping with the CSM would show:
1) How bad an idea these missions are to inflict on PVE mission runners
2) Would may be get them at least tested on the TEST server first
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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2010.01.14 02:12:00 -
[53]
I think the only way to be fair is to include CSM's who are neither alliance or nul-sec corp affiliated. The current setup is 0.0 biased in the extreme and the low sec and high sec people loose out.
|
Clone 1
Ministry of Mojo
|
Posted - 2010.01.15 11:22:00 -
[54]
Yep, looks like Zastrow got it right in this 'post and forget' devblog.
--------------------------------------------------
The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
|
Posted - 2010.01.15 12:50:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sedilis on 15/01/2010 12:51:37
It saddens me to think the CMS is not taken seriously by CCP but looking at some of the minutes it is hardly surprising
Quoting from the May 16th meeting:
Quote:
Oz interjected mid rant and pointed out that FW backlog resource allocation was not on the agenda. Ankhe also demanded that CCP deal with the exploit and proclaimed that no one at CCP had a clue. CCP Xhagen thought Ankhe had made her point and should stick to the agenda.
I don't know about you guys but that is not how people conduct themselves in meetings I attend. The fact it happens is laughable. The fact it was written up as such in minutes make the CSM look like an utter joke.
Try acting with a bit of professionalism guys and you might be taken more seriously.
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.16 05:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44
You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
free publicity \o/
be sure to tell them i am a girl when you campaign against me, and give them the voting link to make sure they know what not to click on <3
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.01.16 10:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 31/12/2009 22:25:44
You mean when the player base didn't take the voting process seriously and voted some people into the CSM based on "Vote for me, I have boobs."; CCP didn't take the CSM seriously???
Who could have predicted this...
Maybe when the players take the CSM seriously then CCP will too.
This. Mazz is planning to run again for CSM 5, and I am planning to spend every ounce of sweat I have to make sure people know what a ****tard she is. I can't stop them from voting for her, but by the goddess, everyone will know exactly what kind of representation they're getting.
free publicity \o/
be sure to tell them i am a girl when you campaign against me, and give them the voting link to make sure they know what not to click on <3
I don't know who you are, but that came across as an A/S/L joke. In the CSM discussion Devblog thread...
Being as goodnatured as I can right now, for I want to shake you.
I'm going to give you some intel on this game and community.
Memo: "This is serious business."/"Srs Bsznss"/"Internet Spaceships is serious business."
Don't run for CSM if you don't understand that we are trying to solve EVE's issues so we can actually play the game to the fullest. And not ever have to hear about bugs, lag, and WoW.
7 |
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.16 20:40:00 -
[58]
i do say there's no such thing as bad publicity!
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
HellFleet
|
Posted - 2010.01.17 12:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: mazzilliu
i do say there's no such thing as bad publicity!
Shut up.
CSM is not about publicity and "look at me, look at me," it's about telling CCP that we have matters we want to see answers/solutions to.
I care about this game. I want people representing the community to CCP, not themselves.
|
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
|
Posted - 2010.01.17 23:17:00 -
[60]
Good Summary by Valentijn (Diedra Vaal). IME it's an accurate summary, and does really highlight what needs to be improved by all parties (CCP/CSM). Zastrow's comment is also a good reminder that there is no room for complacency if the players are to get the maximum benefit out of the opportunity of the CSM.
It's never an easy ride to be the CSM, however if each council only strives to incrementally improve upon the last, it will be 10 years of eve (only 5 councils remaining until them) when we see awesome impact and the realization of the potential.
I hope the current CSM can make a big jump in performance and commitment (particularly in the area of communication). Now the end of year Holiday period is over, hopefully there is nothing stopping them making the leap!
Buy ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in the Eve-Online Store |
Evlyna
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2010.01.18 08:57:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Evlyna on 18/01/2010 08:58:33
Quote:
Our contact with CCP is hilariously limited. The only time we ever had real back-and-forth talks with devs was at the summit. That's it. A single weekend for feedback.
That itself is enough proof how useless the CSM is. If all the CSM does is put on paper a bunch of issues and pray they get looked at, the test forum does a perfectly fine job and devs answer more often there apparently than to the CSM.
Get a real protocol in place between the CSM and CCP and we'll see. Until then...
|
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.18 22:27:00 -
[62]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 18/01/2010 22:29:40
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: mazzilliu
i do say there's no such thing as bad publicity!
Shut up.
CSM is not about publicity and "look at me, look at me," it's about telling CCP that we have matters we want to see answers/solutions to.
I care about this game. I want people representing the community to CCP, not themselves.
okay, ill take the bait. since you seem to be repeating the opinions of some forum trolls who generally just lose their hair every time someone doesnt take a video game completely seriously, what exactly do you propose instead? ive never seen someone win an election without some degree of attention whoring, and i fail to see where i didn't raise issues just like any other CSM member- and the vast majority of those issues being either popular or innovative AND passing the initial CSM vote. if you look at the actual record you really have no argument. the only duties the a CSM member needs to carry out, i carried out.
I guess you are just assuming i play a game where i like lag and broken things. it is just too bad my "ccp please screw up SOV and boost lasers too" issue got shot down in committee.
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Cyprus Black
Caldari
Cowboy Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 00:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: mazzilliu
ive never seen someone win an election without some degree of attention whoring, and i fail to see where i didn't raise issues just like any other CSM member- and the vast majority of those issues being either popular or innovative AND passing the initial CSM vote. if you look at the actual record you really have no argument. the only duties the a CSM member needs to carry out, i carried out.
lol this coming from the former csm who ran a "I've got boobs vote for me" campaign.
The same former csm who advocated unlimited terms, monster truck replacements for titans, and "I'll push your personal issue for isk" nonsense.
Yep, real popular and innovative  Good job on doing your duty as a former csm member.
___________________________________
"In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal."
-Dexter |
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 07:39:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Originally by: mazzilliu
ive never seen someone win an election without some degree of attention whoring, and i fail to see where i didn't raise issues just like any other CSM member- and the vast majority of those issues being either popular or innovative AND passing the initial CSM vote. if you look at the actual record you really have no argument. the only duties the a CSM member needs to carry out, i carried out.
lol this coming from the former csm who ran a "I've got boobs vote for me" campaign.
The same former csm who advocated unlimited terms, monster truck replacements for titans, and "I'll push your personal issue for isk" nonsense.
Yep, real popular and innovative Good job on doing your duty as a former csm member.
hurrr none of those seriously went through
why dont you whine about my dozens of other issues that actually did get proposed and passed
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
Cyprus Black
Caldari
Cowboy Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 08:20:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 20/01/2010 08:21:41
Originally by: mazzilliu
hurrr none of those seriously went through
why dont you whine about my dozens of other issues that actually did get proposed and passed
lol doesn't take much to set you off trollin. And I just find it funny that you speak of csm duties and pushing popular and innovative ideas. Tell us all again, which part of your monster truck titan issue is innovative or popular? On your list of csm duties, where does selling your voice for isk fall into?
lol second worst csm evah!
___________________________________
"In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal."
-Dexter |
arjparking
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 15:00:00 -
[66]
i cant find anybody that promotes some easy changes to the tradeui. separate the change order and delete order buttons by a couple of milimeters and the ability to set the margin at which i get a warning when changing or setting up orders myself. i lost up to 20 billion to both issues during the last 5 years and nobody can be arsed to even look at it. its not as if that are severe changes or difficult to implement. i promote both changes for years now with no result. i am frustrated with the comunication between ccp and me and csm doesnt help at all here.
|
mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2010.01.22 01:46:00 -
[67]
Originally by: arjparking
i cant find anybody that promotes some easy changes to the tradeui. separate the change order and delete order buttons by a couple of milimeters and the ability to set the margin at which i get a warning when changing or setting up orders myself. i lost up to 20 billion to both issues during the last 5 years and nobody can be arsed to even look at it. its not as if that are severe changes or difficult to implement. i promote both changes for years now with no result. i am frustrated with the comunication between ccp and me and csm doesnt help at all here.
when we spoke to CCP, the trading system was one of the things that they didnt want to touch if they didnt have to. partly because its such a huge part of the game, but mostly because its insanely old code. i am pretty sure there were trade related parts of our big UI issue that we raised, and CCP nixed almost all of them.
SELLING MY POWERS. 1 PLEX FOR 1 ISSUE |
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