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Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.12.29 09:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 29/12/2009 09:50:08 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 29/12/2009 09:49:59 The problem is that damage controls give more resists to armor than to shield. -As base armor resist already higher than the base shield resists ,it makes little sense why DC t2 gives +10% resist to armor. -Remote armor repairs already better than remote shield boosters , both in cap efficiency and in fitting -also armor plates gives more hp than shield extenders No wonder why there are nearly only rr armor bs gangs and no rr shield. By fixing the DC shield resists it would make rr shield / shield buffer tanks a little less sucky compared to armor.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.29 09:55:00 - [2] it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. If they make DCU's midslot items you can have increased shield resists over armor resists. It's not like that was a leap of logic beyond human capability? ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet	Posted - 2009.12.29 09:56:00 - [3] Damage Controls are exempt from stacking penalties. Giving shields a non-stacking penalized resist bonus to all resistances in a slot not designed to provide resistances to shields would be unfair as armor tankers can not receive that. Be grateful you get something that armor tankers do not get. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Dark Voynix Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.12.29 09:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Dark Voynix on 29/12/2009 09:58:58 <Troll mode on> yes!!! and fix also the auto shield regeneration rate. let shield dont repair alone ( as armour ..) Guess what? shield and armour are work differently!! <Troll mode off> dont forget that you are using all med slot for shield tanking + 1 low slot for the DC , while armour tankers cant use a med slot for armour tanking ... last but not least: Why in the hell you will change DC for RR ballance? if shield RR are unballanced as you claim the way to fix it whould be gimping rr shield repairers?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.12.29 09:58:00 - [5] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 29/12/2009 10:01:13 Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. If they make DCU's midslot items you can have increased shield resists over armor resists. It's not like that was a leap of logic beyond human capability? then mwd is a med slot item and it is mandatory in most cases also there are usually more low slots than med slot like: usually caldari bs 6 med 5 low , amarr bs 4 med 7 low sum that gives 10 med 12 low see? more lows than meds Dark:"dont forget that you are using all med slot for shield tanking + 1 low slot for the DC , while armour tankers cant use a med slot for armour tanking ... last but not least: Why in the hell you will change DC for RR ballance? if shield RR are unballanced as you claim the way to fix it whould be gimping rr shield repairers?" DC is mandatory for each rr bs fit , i also wrote that it wont fix rr imbalances but would lessen the distance a bit btw it is up to ccp to fix rr shield as it currently way less usefull than rr armor
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. If they make DCU's midslot items you can have increased shield resists over armor resists. It's not like that was a leap of logic beyond human capability? then mwd is a med slot item and it is mandatory in most cases also there are usually more low slots than med slot like: usually caldari bs 6 med 5 low , amarr bs 4 med 7 low sum that gives 10 med 12 low see? more lows than meds Your flawed logic is flawed but your trolling is good. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. If they make DCU's midslot items you can have increased shield resists over armor resists. It's not like that was a leap of logic beyond human capability? then mwd is a med slot item and it is mandatory in most cases also there are usually more low slots than med slot like: usually caldari bs 6 med 5 low , amarr bs 4 med 7 low sum that gives 10 med 12 low see? more lows than meds Your flawed logic is flawed but your trolling is good. If it is flawled then pls point out where I missed something or where I was wrong, until then you are only a troll without reasoning.
Dark Voynix Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. If they make DCU's midslot items you can have increased shield resists over armor resists. It's not like that was a leap of logic beyond human capability? then mwd is a med slot item and it is mandatory in most cases also there are usually more low slots than med slot like: usually caldari bs 6 med 5 low , amarr bs 4 med 7 low sum that gives 10 med 12 low see? more lows than meds Your flawed logic is flawed but your trolling is good. If it is flawled then pls point out where I missed something or where I was wrong, until then you are only a troll without reasoning. Why shield tankers can fit full rack of tank AND damage mods, but armor tankers need to remove tank in order to pu damage mods? ME WANNA MED SLOT DAMAGE MODS DO ypu see what i did here? STOP IT!! DC2 ARE FINE !!!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:15:00 - [9] hmm op has a point (bad, ill thought, but still).. what we need is a second dcu unit (mutally exclusive) for mid slots. It will give the same ratio of shield/armour resistance but mirrored. So better shield resists but you'll lose a mid slot. That would be fair right? :evil grin: All the above is prolly crap
Harris	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Marko Riva Your flawed logic is flawed but your trolling is good. If it is flawled then pls point out where I missed something or where I was wrong, until then you are only a troll without reasoning. It was almost a stroke of genius trying to bring in number of slots across different races and combining them to demonstrate your point, but you lost effectiveness when you said 'see!' and your tollishness (is that a word?) came to the fore. Shield tanks get passive regen for which resistances can be as important as buffer. The armour tanks trade the increased resistance buff for a tank slot. That's how fair it is, they're different. When you can come back with an arguement about why they should be the same then your troll can continue but please don't try it with your current arguments because they just don't have the quality needed for these forums. 5/10
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:32:00 - [11] So according to Dark Voynix rr setups dont need mwd/cap booster ,Iwonder how they will keep the rr modules running. Then rr setups need mwd+cap booster+usually 1 other med slot module that gives them -2-3 slots they can use for tank just like armor users gives up low slots for dmg mods, I see no unbalance there as both can use the same amount of slots for tanks. Let me point this again for u. raven 6 med 5 lows megathron/typhoon 4 med 7 low geddon 3 med 8 low ,remove the slots needed for mwd/cap booster/2 dmg mods/dc Raven 4 med 2 low mega/typhoon 2 med 4 low geddon 1 med 5 low , on noo it show us that the mega/typhoon both can use as many mods for tank as the raven and the geddon can use even more, and still i havent added the usuall 1 med slot needed for some kind of tackler/eccm. Harris: passive regen for shield omg, when was the last time that saved you from be killed in fleets? anyway isnt base lower resists /less hp on buffer modules compensate for that little recharge? Passive regen shield tanks only good for pve anyway. Ive never said they should be the same,but the DC resist difference makes no sense.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:41:00 - [12] Remove the shield resists. If it's not supposed to be a shield tanking module then it shouldn't be. The end. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Sumelar	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Naomi Knight -also armor plates gives more hp than shield extenders When armor start regenerating on its own, you can have better shield extenders.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2009.12.29 10:48:00 - [14] Calling it now, this thread will consist of whine, cheese, I can't believe it's not PhailÖ and me eating popcorn.. All the above is prolly crap
Benco97 Gallente Shadow Veil Industrial	Posted - 2009.12.29 11:15:00 - [15] I love DCUs as they are, as I fly mostly hull tanked ships they are totally invaluable to me. Freeing up a low-slot would be very nice (for me) but overpowered. ______________________________________________ Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.12.29 11:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. Heh. Good thread.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.12.29 11:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. Lol? Have you actually checked typical shield tanking fits, or did you just talk out of your proverbial backside?
Lady Australia	Posted - 2009.12.29 11:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Sumelar Originally by: Naomi Knight -also armor plates gives more hp than shield extenders When armor start regenerating on its own, you can have better shield extenders. last time i checked, my passive recharge on a buffer fit cerb/drake/lolraven is about 3hp/s, you can have your armor recharge and ill take the x-large shield extenders thanks.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc	Posted - 2009.12.29 11:59:00 - [19] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. Lol? Have you actually checked typical shield tanking fits, or did you just talk out of your proverbial backside? connect the two bolded parts and realise it makes sense, I know it's not that easy... ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:03:00 - [20] do not touch the bait-hull-tanking-navy-mega !!! - putting the gist back into logistics
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 29/12/2009 09:50:08 Edited by: Naomi Knight on 29/12/2009 09:49:59 The problem is that damage controls give more resists to armor than to shield. -As base armor resist already higher than the base shield resists ,it makes little sense why DC t2 gives +10% resist to armor. -Remote armor repairs already better than remote shield boosters , both in cap efficiency and in fitting -also armor plates gives more hp than shield extenders No wonder why there are nearly only rr armor bs gangs and no rr shield. By fixing the DC shield resists it would make rr shield / shield buffer tanks a little less sucky compared to armor. You want a Better Shield resist to your Dcu, Sure just one things first, Give us armour tankers Officer EANMs that give us 50+ to all resistances when skills are at V, and while your at it. Give us some Armour Repair Amplifiers, You're right all our tanking types should be Exatly the same. Oh you're Serious? In that case, remember, Sheild tanks are BURST tanks compared to the slow repiar of armour. You get lower resistances (So you claim) but you burst in the begining of your cycle and you rep alot more. DCU is fine. Leave it. you want more resists get a CNIvul, or go officer. - Emperor
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/12/2009 12:08:50 Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. Lol? Have you actually checked typical shield tanking fits, or did you just talk out of your proverbial backside? connect the two bolded parts and realise it makes sense, I know it's not that easy... Makes even less sense, considering there are things like the shield power relay, or power diagnostic system (bolded to make it easier to realize).
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/12/2009 12:08:50 Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Marko Riva it's a low slot item which is mostly used for... armor tankers. Lol? Have you actually checked typical shield tanking fits, or did you just talk out of your proverbial backside? connect the two bolded parts and realise it makes sense, I know it's not that easy... Makes even less sense, considering there are things like the shield power relay, or power diagnostic system (bolded to make it easier to realize). Was going to point that out as well, but i think my point are pretty vaild too, though your points complete it. - Emperor
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Omara Otawan shield power relay Would you really fit spr on pvp ship? Also dc is just fine.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan shield power relay Would you really fit spr on pvp ship? Personally I wouldnt, but I've seen some rather out-of-the-box dual-MSE jaguar fittings using one. Besides, tanking isnt restricted to pvp as far as I know, in fact pvp favours buffer over anything else, be it passive HP regen or active tanking.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Emperor Ryan You want a Better Shield resist to your Dcu, Sure just one things first, Give us armour tankers Officer EANMs that give us 50+ to all resistances when skills are at V, and while your at it. Give us some Armour Repair Amplifiers, You're right all our tanking types should be Exatly the same. Oh you're Serious? In that case, remember, Sheild tanks are BURST tanks compared to the slow repiar of armour. You get lower resistances (So you claim) but you burst in the begining of your cycle and you rep alot more. DCU is fine. Leave it. you want more resists get a CNIvul, or go officer. Not better shield resist but fair shield resist compared to armor, officer eanms sure when they have to be activated use lots of caps needs much more cpu to fit and slaves implants wont affect capitals. I dunno where did you get the idea that i want shield tank to be the same as armor tank , if you insist then DC could give more shield resist than armor there you go :P. Shield tanks burst tanks vs "slow" armor repair , this topic isnt about this ,but if you insist: large remote armor repair t2 : cap cost 252 GJ duration 4.5 sec armor repaired 384hp vs large shield transporter t2: cap cost 280GJ duration 4.5 sec shield repaired 384hp looks like they both rep the same amout and have same duration while shield uses more cap.... oh wait you talk about local rep... sure most of us uses that in pvp especially sub capital ,I also assume you ment the x-large shield booster vs large armor repper because everybody knows how easy to fit the x-large sb + shield boost amply up compared to the large armor reppers -also you forgot look at rigs where armor has a +15% efficiency for reppers while there are no such one for shield similarly fitted raven vs mega : mega fit : 2*large armor rep t2+dc t2+eamn t2+ heavy cap booster t2 +2 armor pump rigs +1 nanobot rig 505ehp/sec repped 435ehp/sec sustained vs raven : x-large shield b t2+shield boost ampl t1+ invu t2 +dc t2 +heavy cap booster t2+1 capactior safeguard rig +2 operation soli rigs max 537ehp/sec repped 415 ehpsec sustained From this i would call that even local armor reps dont fall behind(less than 7%) local shield reps in amount of ehp repped. "Leave it. you want more resists get a CNIvul, or go officer." oh sure every body should fit their pvp ships with CNinvus ,right? Lets have a deal you supply me with CN invus for 2m isk each and I say that shield tanks are fine. At least you are tring to reason not like others.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2009.12.29 12:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Omara Otawan shield power relay Would you really fit spr on pvp ship? Personally I wouldnt, but I've seen some rather out-of-the-box dual-MSE jaguar fittings using one. Besides, tanking isnt restricted to pvp as far as I know, in fact pvp favours buffer over anything else, be it passive HP regen or active tanking. I saw some dualmse jags too and imo they are not that good because they lack mwd or web. And for pve active shield tank is best - not because it can tank more dps, but because you can use all lows on weapon upgrades.
Lyris Nairn Caldari Hashimoto Corporation	Posted - 2009.12.29 13:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Keitaro Baka hmm op has a point (bad, ill thought, but still).. what we need is a second dcu unit (mutally exclusive) for mid slots. It will give the same ratio of shield/armour resistance but mirrored. So better shield resists but you'll lose a mid slot. That would be fair right? :evil grin: yes.. OMG YES!! I would put it in mid slot of all my armor tank ships.
Foulque	Posted - 2009.12.29 13:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Sumelar Originally by: Naomi Knight -also armor plates gives more hp than shield extenders When armor start regenerating on its own, you can have better shield extenders. Oh god this ________
Emperor Ryan Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.29 13:05:00 - [30] Edited by: Emperor Ryan on 29/12/2009 13:06:05 You made one noteable fatal Error in your post. I'll Make it clear, You pointed out, Armour tanks have a Rig that Increase Effectiveness by 15% and sheilds do not. You failed to miss out we have a rig that increases rep speed, as you also have a sheild rig to increase Boost speed. That being said you cleary must have overlooked that sheild tanks alos get a boost amp, which gives a Whooping 35%+ or more to sheild boost.. That's double what one Armour rig gives for extra rep... And wait, there's more, Even with 2 of my armour rigs, THEY STACK so i still can't acheve 30% more repping without deticating ALL three Rig slots. Now please explain to me, Why i have to spend 60m on rigs to get the same effect that i can get for a 900k module for a sheild tank which only consumes one slot. Oh did i mention the sheild tanker still gets 3 more rig slots to fit whatever he likes Edit: Missed a section - Emperor

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