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Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2009.12.31 16:45:00 - [31] Edited by: Entity on 31/12/2009 16:45:49 Perhaps it feels like it's 30%, but it's really at 25% give or take 0.1% F:\tank>peak.py 7.10589169958 peak recharge at 24.90% At 30% it is 7.03891192716 This script uses EVE's charged attribute curve (as used for shields and capacitor, and possibly heat), and records the deltas at 0.0001% intervals. Figures are for an unfitted Navy Caracal at max skills As you can see the difference is way too small to be noticed, so at 30% you have virtually the same delta as at 25%, but the mathematical peak is most definitely at 25%. _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2009.12.31 21:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Entity Edited by: Entity on 31/12/2009 16:45:49 Perhaps it feels like it's 30%, but it's really at 25% give or take 0.1% F:\tank>peak.py 7.10589169958 peak recharge at 24.90% At 30% it is 7.03891192716 This script uses EVE's charged attribute curve (as used for shields and capacitor, and possibly heat), and records the deltas at 0.0001% intervals. Figures are for an unfitted Navy Caracal at max skills As you can see the difference is way too small to be noticed, so at 30% you have virtually the same delta as at 25%, but the mathematical peak is most definitely at 25%. Source? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2010.01.01 00:04:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Entity Edited by: Entity on 31/12/2009 16:45:49 Perhaps it feels like it's 30%, but it's really at 25% give or take 0.1% F:\tank>peak.py 7.10589169958 peak recharge at 24.90% At 30% it is 7.03891192716 This script uses EVE's charged attribute curve (as used for shields and capacitor, and possibly heat), and records the deltas at 0.0001% intervals. Figures are for an unfitted Navy Caracal at max skills As you can see the difference is way too small to be noticed, so at 30% you have virtually the same delta as at 25%, but the mathematical peak is most definitely at 25%. Source? -Liang http://pastie.org/762889 based on the formula here: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Corvax/Capacitor01.gif yes, it's really also this formula for shield recharge or I will eat my virtual hat ;) _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.01.01 10:12:00 - [34] Entity said "Perhaps it feels like it's 30%, but it's really at 25% give or take 0.1%" It didn't just feel 30% I tested in two different ways and both turned out to be 30% well 29% but closer to 30% so everyone rounds it in game. I spent countless hours testing and I also did a damage test. I had someone shot me changing the DPS to test when shield stabilise. Shields always stabilised at 30% never at 25%. I also recorded the HP regen per second many years and it was less then at 30%. Both sets of data said not only did HP regen hit peak at 29% but also the peak is 2.5 something which at the time everyone said was only 2.4 and CCP have since confirmed its 2.5. How do you know that formula you posted is right? Some player could have made it up and got it wrong compared to what eve users. I am not going say you are wrong as CCP have been known to change formulas and my testing was years ago. But I would like to see more evidence. Did that formula come directly from CCP? Why does in game testing now match the formula? Surely we should be able to stabilise shields at 25% and record HP regen at 25%. Last time I did that they did not match with what you are saying. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2010.01.01 11:07:00 - [35] If the peak is at 25% shooting you at 25% will penetrate your tank, because of the (small, but possibly larger than one salvo depending how discreet the EvE engine is) damage spikes, while shooting you before the peak will not. That is one very good reason to use the 30% tank for practical purposes and also a reason to record shield charging and not icoming DPS. "Real men play badminton, deep diving is for pussies." PvP 13373P33K unscrambled
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.01.01 11:17:00 - [36] But if you have a very large hitpoint buffer as most passive tanks do you should be able to tank at 25% or 27% all the way up to 29%. But this is not happening in game or in testing. If peak HP regen is 100 and someone does 100dps but a single hit only knocks you down 1% or less due to a large buffer you should hold at 28% not fail and die once the shields drop below 30%. More testing is needed. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.01 11:24:00 - [37] Well, when you do your test, may I suggest you get a bunch of corpmates to hump around you with the Apoc below? You should be able to determine within 10 DPS of where you start to break. The duration itself is pretty small though, so it'll be hard to get a continuous spread of damage. Also, Radio S is pure EM damage, so shield tanking without any resist mods should give you "raw" damage. Mind posting the raw results when you get them? [Apocalypse, Pottsey's Shield Test] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range [empty med slot] Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S Gatling Pulse Laser I, Radio S [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2010.01.01 12:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Pottsey But if you have a very large hitpoint buffer as most passive tanks do you should be able to tank at 25% or 27% all the way up to 29%. But this is not happening in game or in testing. If peak HP regen is 100 and someone does 100dps but a single hit only knocks you down 1% or less due to a large buffer you should hold at 28% not fail and die once the shields drop below 30%. More testing is needed. Alright. I'll design a test to (dis)prove the 25%. I know just the thing to do. Might take a while though because it's rather complicated stuff :P _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
Forge Lag Jita Lag Preservation Fund	Posted - 2010.01.01 12:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Forge Lag on 01/01/2010 12:47:13 Hey, I am so lazy I rather trust EFT than to do a simple test... but not lazy enough not to pretent publicly to be smart. Forget about incoming DPS or some complfcated setups. Just nuke your shields and then periodically record your shield HP at preset intervals (which the game conveniently provides) to observe shield regen. "Real men play badminton, deep diving is for pussies." PvP 13373P33K unscrambled
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.01.01 14:36:00 - [40] In this case I hope I am wrong. If 25% is peak there goes the argument passive tanks suck as you get a massive drop in HP regen as soon as you go below or above 30%. Is there anything I can do to help test? ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2010.01.01 16:45:00 - [41] Alright, here is my proof. Test conducted as follows: 1. Sit in space with an arbitrary ship. 2. Someone else strips your shield using whatever weapons. 3. Record the shield value as shown on the HUD (absolute readout) whenever it changes and record the time of each change (see bottom of post). 4. Normalize data points to a 100hp shield with 100s recharge. 5. Convert the data points to deltas since previous point (both time and shield) and normalize the shield hp deltas to hp-gained-per-second (using Δhp * 1/Δt) 6. Spit out a table with the observed normalized recharge in hp/sec side by side with the calculated expected recharge in hp/sec: http://pastie.org/763221 Here's a little graph to go with the data: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Entity/shieldcurve.png So, to summarize: - shield recharge curve is the same as cap recharge curve. - the formula mentioned in my earlier post is correct. - the peak occurs at approximately 25% Q.E.D. *: Note on step 3 - There are various ways to do this with varying levels of accuracy. You can use screencapture/ocr software, or fraps it and process it all manually. You can even whip something up with AHK or ACTool that does this if you really want. _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
achoura	Posted - 2010.01.01 16:51:00 - [42] Get a missile boat e.g. drake (since missile damage is constant unlike turrets). Get a passive, stationary, target e.g. drake, on which you know the peak recharge. No shoot the laster with the first afew times to get the damage of 1 missile. It should then be a simple case of multiplying that, by lunchers and rof, adding bcus etc, to get the dps required to match the peak of the first. I suggest drakes because their high hp means 25 & 30% should be quite accurate, although a raven covered in extenders would have higher hp and should be matched buy a frigs dps, making that even more accurate. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.01.01 17:14:00 - [43] Thank you for those very interesting results. I wonder if my old tests where flawed or if the formula was changed. Not that it matters I need to update the way I think about shields. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Footoo Rama Gallente Caldari Illuminati	Posted - 2010.01.01 22:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Pottsey But if you have a very large hitpoint buffer as most passive tanks do you should be able to tank at 25% or 27% all the way up to 29%. But this is not happening in game or in testing. If peak HP regen is 100 and someone does 100dps but a single hit only knocks you down 1% or less due to a large buffer you should hold at 28% not fail and die once the shields drop below 30%. More testing is needed. But the larger buffer increases your hp regen so it is a moot point. hp a sec is basically max hp/recharge time ( basically/simplistic view ). So the act of adding more buffer already affects the recharge time. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!"
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.01.01 23:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 01/01/2010 17:20:16 Thank you for those very interesting results. I wonder if my old tests where flawed or if the formula was changed. Not that it matters I need to update the way I think about shields. EDIT: You are between 2.0 and 2.5 regen at 8% to about 52% shield You are between 2.3 and 2.5 regen at 13.55%% to about 41% shield That makes passive shield tank way better than most people think. It also means 30% is far to early to use as a warp out point. It makes more sence to plan to warp out at 15% and not warp till 10 to 12%. I know its totally off topic, but your commitment to the science of passive tanking really is amazing. If only more people on the forums were willing to say 'if I'm wrong, prove me wrong' and then accept new data willingly and without screaming like a baby. You are a truly a gentleman and scholar.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.01.02 13:35:00 - [46] Footoo Rama said "But the larger buffer increases your hp regen so it is a moot point." What I was trying to say is that without a buffer but high HP regen you can tank at 30% but one hit can put you at below peak regen so the tank breaks. While with a large buffer one hit knocks you down 1% so you can still tank at around peak. The bigger your buffer the more likely you can tank at between 25% to 29%. The other problem is data points. If you record shield data without a large buffer per second you might jump up 5% shields in one game tick. Entity said early on an unfitted ship was used which in theory could distort the curve so peak looks to be in the wrong place. Hence why I preferred a ship with a large buffer to be used, you get more accurate reading and readings per shield %. Unless an unfitted ship shields never go up by more then 1% between 20 and 40% in which case an unfitted ship is ok. Although I believe Entity is right and I was wrong the one test I have been unable to repeat is to get the shields to stabilise at 25 to 28% something that requires a large buffer(I did get 29% working). In theory we should be able to deal a constant incoming DPS and have the shields stay steady at say 25 to 28% without rising up to 30%. This would further confirm Entity is correct although I am not sure we need to further confirm. Thank you Katarlia Simov for those comments. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Kenz Rider Tesserae	Posted - 2010.01.04 22:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 01/01/2010 17:20:16 EDIT: You are between 2.0 and 2.5 regen at 8% to about 52% shield You are between 2.3 and 2.5 regen at 13.55%% to about 41% shield That makes passive shield tank way better than most people think. It also means 30% is far to early to use as a warp out point. It makes more sence to plan to warp out at 15% and not warp till 10 to 12%. This seems exactly right. I've always been afraid of my tank falling apart shortly after 30ish% but it seems that worry is better placed at 15-20%.
Lucia Ferragano	Posted - 2010.02.25 12:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd say the Rattlesnake beats the Domi (and Navy Domi) - but not by a whole hell of a lot. Warping out of Stop the Thief really sucks .... but then again you should be running a neutron domi in stop the thief. -Liang I run "stop the thief" in a Drake (all tech2 fitted, however). Takes ages, but it's AFK gaming. I'm surprised to learn that a Faction Battleship worth about 50 times my fitted battlecruiser would be at risk...
Lucia Ferragano	Posted - 2010.02.25 12:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Pottsey Footoo Rama said "But the larger buffer increases your hp regen so it is a moot point." What I was trying to say is that without a buffer but high HP regen you can tank at 30% but one hit can put you at below peak regen so the tank breaks. While with a large buffer one hit knocks you down 1% so you can still tank at around peak. The bigger your buffer the more likely you can tank at between 25% to 29%. The other problem is data points. If you record shield data without a large buffer per second you might jump up 5% shields in one game tick. Entity said early on an unfitted ship was used which in theory could distort the curve so peak looks to be in the wrong place. Hence why I preferred a ship with a large buffer to be used, you get more accurate reading and readings per shield %. Unless an unfitted ship shields never go up by more then 1% between 20 and 40% in which case an unfitted ship is ok. Although I believe Entity is right and I was wrong the one test I have been unable to repeat is to get the shields to stabilise at 25 to 28% something that requires a large buffer(I did get 29% working). In theory we should be able to deal a constant incoming DPS and have the shields stay steady at say 25 to 28% without rising up to 30%. This would further confirm Entity is correct although I am not sure we need to further confirm. Thank you Katarlia Simov for those comments. One major point that most players NEVER seem to account for is lag. It might be that only few pilots play over WiFi, but I've been for years and it makes for most of my decisions. I overtank, I lament the non-warping drones because I WILL lose them everytime lag drops me out. If you have ever lost your main ship, all tech 2 fitted, because of a high lag spike, you will understand what I mean there. Therefore, that "peak regen buffer" Rama is talking about is really very important to me. I'd rather fly a ship that does crappy damage but that's still there when lag hits than a ship that will die while I wait for EVE to accept my "warp out" command. Moreover, I have had experience with the GM telling me that "after reviewing data, you did not warp out and hence lost your ship". This game has been designed with highly efficient networks in mind, even though I can't believe I'm the only addict to play over bad connections. Therefore, ships should allow for lag-fitting. I believe the Rattlesnake is sort of a Drake with stronger drones, which is why as a Dominix, Raven and Drake pilot, I'm interested in testing its lag capacities!
Tulisin Dragonflame	Posted - 2010.02.25 19:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Pottsey That makes passive shield tank way better than most people think. It doesn't change how good they are in practice, and most people who passive shield tank do it because it has been shown to be effective in practice, not because it is good in theory. Passive shield tanking remains as good as it has always been.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.25 21:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Pottsey The Rattlesnake is far better. As you have a far bigger tank you can fit tons of drone boosting modules. I run my Rattlesnake with x3 navy drone tracking mods, x2 drone speed mods and still have over a 1000dps omni tank. Like that the Rattlesnake drones can kill a target before the Domi with a normal tanked domi setup. With 3 navy mods I find the Rattlesnakes hvy drones can even hit frigs. Actually on paper Big drones suck against Frigs but in practice they do very well in alot of cases, because the frigs are alot faster they usually take off and have the drones follow, as soon as the frig MWD`s away that large gun aka Drone has almost no transversal since its heading straight away from it and the gun gets a very nice clean shot. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.26 00:03:00 - [52] Originally by: K'racker Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/12/2009 12:11:13 MoeJoe Green said "How about this AFK setup? Insane tank..." If you think that is insane look at a passive tank version. Double the HP regen to 400 HP/s or over 450 HP/s if in a gang with the same resistance as the active. In fact I think you're better off skipping the x2 Ballistic Deflection Field II and Heat Dissipation Field II, fitting shield rechargers and hitting over 700 HP regen per second. The DPS tanked isnt as good but the HP regen is crasy. EDIT: Although I have a few passive tank implants you're still talking almost double the HP regen of an active tank without implants and a passive setup. Plus you have a little more buffer as well. EDIT2: Has anyone looked at a full shield recharge and SPR setup with purger T2 rigs? Over 900 HP regen solo or over 1000 HP regen in a gang, 45 ish seconds from 0 to 100% shields. Although you are better off fitting one shield extender the fun factor of shield rechargers needs to be taken into account. EDIT3: Or if you want to be really stupid use shield flux. Still a 1000dps tank but your shields recharge in 27seconds. eft uses peak regen, which is at about 34% shield. it's much less regen above or below this mark. you sound like a nub drake pilot tbh with tons of regen and no resists and wonder why they get chased out of lvl 3's heh I lol'd, K'racker must be new around here.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.26 00:07:00 - [53] Originally by: MoeJoe Green Edited by: MoeJoe Green on 31/12/2009 13:10:01 Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/12/2009 12:11:13 MoeJoe Green said "How about this AFK setup? Insane tank..." If you think that is insane look at a passive tank version. Double the HP regen to 400 HP/s or over 450 HP/s if in a gang with the same resistance as the active. In fact I think you're better off skipping the x2 Ballistic Deflection Field II and Heat Dissipation Field II, fitting shield rechargers and hitting over 700 HP regen per second. The DPS tanked isnt as good but the HP regen is crasy. I thought they made the new faction AND pirate battleships awful at PST. ...That tank is just stupid. This ship has way to many slots. just the empire faction ships
Bomberlocks Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.02.26 01:49:00 - [54] While I really, really want a Rattlesnake somewhere down the line (sometime after my Phoon finally has T2 torps), I think that if you've trained both Gallente and Caldari BS to 5 (as well as high shield and cap skills) to be able to fly a Rattlesnake, then the question is possibly why bother? For not much more of iSK, there's the Golem, which sports a pretty massive tank as well as high dps (there's highly rated PvE fitting on Battleclinic with two TP's for even more damage) as well as the ability to loot/salvage as you go. In a cost effectiveness scenario, I would think a Golem is probably better, apart from which, if you are someone who blitzes missions for LP and rewards, then you're probably better in a Golem as well. The final thing to possibly think about is your attractiveness to gankers if you're flying loads of faction mods. There the Domi wins hands down.
Kail Storm Caldari Dark Taboo	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:19:00 - [55] The reason I want the Snake is simply the LVL 5`s you cant do solo in any other BS....Lvl 5`s are very hard and they suck your cap extremely fast...You need passive so thats what im planning. If you run, You`ll only die tired :)
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:43:00 - [56] Could you not test all this with absolute values on the HUD, and fraps? Just get your shield blasted until you go into armor, start fraps and record for the duration of your shield recharge time.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.02.26 08:39:00 - [57] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 26/02/2010 08:42:37 Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 26/02/2010 08:40:38 Seeing as this post has gotten quite off-topic I thought I'd post some setups for the rattlesnake myself: [Rattlesnake, PVE passive T2 + T1 rigs] 1347 SDE OMNITANK Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Amplifier II Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Ogre II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 Garde II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 [Rattlesnake, PVE passive omfg holy crap] 2346 SDE OMNITANK Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Estamel's Modified Magnetic Scattering Amplifier Estamel's Modified Magnetic Scattering Amplifier Estamel's Modified Heat Dissipation Amplifier Estamel's Modified Kinetic Deflection Amplifier Estamel's Modified Explosion Dampening Amplifier Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Large Core Defence Field Purger II Large Core Defence Field Purger II Large Core Defence Field Purger II +5% shield implant +5% shield regeneration implant Garde II x5 Ogre II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 These are two extremes, the first one costing roughly 750 - 800mil (rattlesnakes cost around 675mil nowadays) and the second one, well, a whole lot more. However ofcourse there are a lot of middelgrounds and T2/commander resist amps can be switched to faction/deadspace and rigs T1 or T2, there's a lot of options to make your tank/price ratio just right. Also do not forget these are OMNITANK setups (I am a lazy bastard that simply DOES NOT change his fittings for missions with the only exception being ammo used.. and drones if I can be arsed), obviously you can get more effective SDE with a racial tank! The 2nd setup is just there however to show you that whoever told you soloing a lvl5 mission was impossible.. was wrong. Disclaimer: SFX Bladerunner will not be held responsible for your rattlesnake getting blown up in low-sec due to people actually believing they could solo lvl5s without getting ganked by piwates. Obviously the 2x heavy neuts on both fits are anti-pirate countermeasures and so are the ECM drones but these DO NOT GUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY. FLY AT OWN RISK. That is all. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Tatanya Darkdawn Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.26 08:43:00 - [58] Originally by: Bomberlocks While I really, really want a Rattlesnake somewhere down the line (sometime after my Phoon finally has T2 torps), I think that if you've trained both Gallente and Caldari BS to 5 (as well as high shield and cap skills) to be able to fly a Rattlesnake, then the question is possibly why bother? For not much more of iSK, there's the Golem, which sports a pretty massive tank as well as high dps (there's highly rated PvE fitting on Battleclinic with two TP's for even more damage) as well as the ability to loot/salvage as you go. In a cost effectiveness scenario, I would think a Golem is probably better, apart from which, if you are someone who blitzes missions for LP and rewards, then you're probably better in a Golem as well. The final thing to possibly think about is your attractiveness to gankers if you're flying loads of faction mods. There the Domi wins hands down. You don't need to have Caldari BS V to have a mean tank on Rattler. You also don't need to train all shield skills to IV/V, only those affecting passive shield tanking. Actually, you get away way with surprisingly little "Caldari" training with Rattler. And not everyone want to fly pure Caldari missile ships even if they are superior in PvE. There's also no reason to fit Rattler with faction mods. T2 is perfectly fine, but you might still get ganked just for flying a faction ship. So sure, Domi is more cost efficient and safer. - Tat
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.02.26 08:48:00 - [59] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 26/02/2010 08:50:07 Originally by: Tatanya Darkdawn Originally by: Bomberlocks While I really, really want a Rattlesnake somewhere down the line (sometime after my Phoon finally has T2 torps), I think that if you've trained both Gallente and Caldari BS to 5 (as well as high shield and cap skills) to be able to fly a Rattlesnake, then the question is possibly why bother? For not much more of iSK, there's the Golem, which sports a pretty massive tank as well as high dps (there's highly rated PvE fitting on Battleclinic with two TP's for even more damage) as well as the ability to loot/salvage as you go. In a cost effectiveness scenario, I would think a Golem is probably better, apart from which, if you are someone who blitzes missions for LP and rewards, then you're probably better in a Golem as well. The final thing to possibly think about is your attractiveness to gankers if you're flying loads of faction mods. There the Domi wins hands down. You don't need to have Caldari BS V to have a mean tank on Rattler. You also don't need to train all shield skills to IV/V, only those affecting passive shield tanking. Actually, you get away way with surprisingly little "Caldari" training with Rattler. And not everyone want to fly pure Caldari missile ships even if they are superior in PvE. There's also no reason to fit Rattler with faction mods. T2 is perfectly fine, but you might still get ganked just for flying a faction ship. So sure, Domi is more cost efficient and safer. - Tat I agree. Seriously guys, putting faction/better TANK modules on your ship and/or T2 rigs just for running lvl4 missions would be so stupid I can't even begin to express my sincere concern for your mental capabilities. pimp rattler is made for lvl5 missions, that's all really.. That, or morbid pvpers with a very big wallet. Oh, and also perhaps solo-wormholing... but that would be silly because you would get ganked immediatelly.. it would work though __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:28:00 - [60] Who cares where max recharge occurs or for how much of the hitpoint spectrum? As long as you are taking less DPS than max recharge, and you don't get alphad past it, your tank will hold indefinitely.

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