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Possible Exploit

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JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2009.12.30 19:52:00 - [1] What follows is a copy of my original petition mail. We believe this to be an exploit: Aelemaeous , CEO of Industrial Cake is joining our war-targets fleets so as to provide them the benefit of his command ship and leadership bonuses, however this does not make him a legitimate target for us. When we declared war on his corporation, so that we could at least shoot at the person who was making our enemies 10-20% stronger, he simply surrendered, twice. Now he has taken the step of joining a nuetral alliance to protect him, while he continues to provide bonuses to a fleet that is hostile to us. We believe this to be an exploit. At the very least anyone providing bonuses to a hostile fleet should be a legitimate target, just as if they were repairing a target in PvP. Signed, JerichoSteele What follows is the response I recieved: Hi, I'm GM Orfeus. You do have a valid point in my opinion but according to current game mechanics this is normal and I therefore can't interfere in the matter. I'm sorry for this inconvenience but my hands are tied. Sincerely, GM Orfeus EVE Online Customer Support Team We believe that this sort of action is a clear and actionable exploit. Any PvP pilot in this game would love to recieve the combat bonus a command ship and trained pilot can provide, but if that pilot assists a hostile target, just as with remote repairing, then that pilot should also be considered a hostile target. Enemy of my enemy is my friend, friend of my enemy is my enemy.
kano donn	Posted - 2009.12.30 20:08:00 - [2] you are correct it may suck but it is a valid game mech. you could also try to find someone to give you better bonuses.
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.30 20:16:00 - [3] So if I understood this correctly: Some guy with a command ship and probably having an assortment of leadership bonuses, he joins a the fleet belonging to a war target of yours. So this guy in a command ship, may simply sit and watch fleet combat ensue in high-sec, offering bonuses to the hostile fleet, while not causing aggression. So the guy is can't be fought in high-sec with the current corporate war mechanics.
JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2009.12.30 22:34:00 - [4] Yes Zaiyo you are correct. And thank you CCP for gutting the entire content of my message and making the gentle reader scratch his head and wonder WTF this is all about?
Aliraxi Gallente Gangrel Mining and Security High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.31 01:30:00 - [5] Originally by: JerichoSteele wonder WTF this is all about? Exactly what I did, lol.
JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2009.12.31 03:58:00 - [6] To bring everyone up to speed; We have contacted CCP concerning this issue (nuetral players providing bonuses to belligerant PvP fleets)and have recieved two seperate and contradictory answers. One GM seems to think that it IS an exploit, but it cannot be changed due to current game mechanics. Another GM states that we are WRONG, that we CAN shoot the player providing the bonuses and if he does not show as a legitimate target than it is a bug and we should report it. Just out of curiousity, which GM is right? Mom, or Dad?
Sturdy Girl Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.12.31 11:23:00 - [7] Where exactly does CCP state that...: 1. providing fleet command bonuses to a pilot should get you flagged if THAT pilot gets flagged? 2. doing so is an explot? Its difficult to tell since the GM corespondance was removed... are you talking about the bonuses you give from command skills/command links, OR are you talking about modules which you have to activate on a targetted ship to buff that ship in some way? As far as I know, the former does not get you flagged, the latter does. Yes, its probably a bit unfair, but it certainly isn't an exploit, and as far as I can see it is working exactly as intended.
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.12.31 15:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Sturdy Girl Where exactly does CCP state that...: 1. providing fleet command bonuses to a pilot should get you flagged if THAT pilot gets flagged? 2. doing so is an explot? Its difficult to tell since the GM corespondance was removed... are you talking about the bonuses you give from command skills/command links, OR are you talking about modules which you have to activate on a targetted ship to buff that ship in some way? As far as I know, the former does not get you flagged, the latter does. Yes, its probably a bit unfair, but it certainly isn't an exploit, and as far as I can see it is working exactly as intended. Sounds like it's working as intended. It's a passive bonus that doesn't require a target where a repper does. The command ship doesn't even have to be on grid for them to give a bonus. Infact just by being in a fleet you can give bonuses without a command ship so your claim is baseless unless you don't want anyone to be in a fleet. ------------------------------------
MushMush Minmatar Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.12.31 17:07:00 - [9] My guess jericho is that you would get spanked regardless of CS bonus...
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.12.31 17:17:00 - [10] Looks like someone miss the lofty scamm. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.31 17:44:00 - [11] Providing command bonuses is a passive effect, you can't control who gets it and who doesn't - if they join the fleet and you're the designated booster, they'll get the bonuses you provide. That's quite a bit different than actively choosing to remote-tep someone at war/with aggression and getting aggresion yourself accordingly.
Kruulus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.31 18:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Durzel ... you can't control who gets it and who doesn't - if they join the fleet and you're the designated booster, they'll get the bonuses you provide. um.. you CAN control who gets it and who doesn't, and you just said how to. don't be the fleet booster! or you can divide into separate squads and only give bonuses to people you are the squad commander for... there is plenty of control over who gets the bonuses. this of course has little to do with the OP's problem. I agree that this is a bogus game mech. i've been wardecced and learned the hard way how stupid this is. the way i figure things should be changed: -anyone in a fleet with a war target becomes war allies and are legal targets for the opposing war party. there would be a warning that you are joining a war flagged fleet. -if you leave the fleet without performing war related actions you will be cleared of war ally status. performing a war action in fleet will start a timer. if you leave fleet before timer is up you will remain a valid war target until end of timer. - the following should be considered war actions: remote repairing(either module or drone), hostile actions against opposing war targets, providing passive leadership bonuses. "I gets my salvage, I builds my rigs, I makes my moneys. Don't call me a ninja."
Le Soltueur Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2009.12.31 19:05:00 - [13] I smell tears here. waitwut? This isn't C&P...
JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2010.01.01 06:06:00 - [14] -Please ignore the ill-mannered troll. There have been some excellent ideas posted to this thread, perhaps the developers will consider these changes with the next upgrade.
Varesk Gallente Maelstrom Crew Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.01.02 00:26:00 - [15] Edited by: Varesk on 02/01/2010 00:36:40 I would also like to add that they should not allow neutral haulers into a high sec pos when the corporation/alliance is under a war dec.
Pesets The Hunt Club	Posted - 2010.01.02 00:54:00 - [16] Used to be that anyone in your fleet was automatically flagged for pvp to your wartargets. So guess what, with what you suggest you can wardec your buddy, make a fleet with him, invite someone to it (to help on a mission or something), make him squad commander, and kick the living crap out of him. Rinse and repeat on others.
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2010.01.02 01:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Varesk Edited by: Varesk on 02/01/2010 00:36:40 I would also like to add that they should not allow neutral haulers into a high sec pos when the corporation/alliance is under a war dec. Neutral to whom? They may be +5 (blue) to the alliance's POS that they are docking at. By making your suggestions, nearly everyone could end up being a war target to someone else by merely docking at a POS. ------------------------------------
Varesk Gallente Maelstrom Crew Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.01.02 05:13:00 - [18] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Varesk Edited by: Varesk on 02/01/2010 00:36:40 I would also like to add that they should not allow neutral haulers into a high sec pos when the corporation/alliance is under a war dec. Neutral to whom? They may be +5 (blue) to the alliance's POS that they are docking at. By making your suggestions, nearly everyone could end up being a war target to someone else by merely docking at a POS. You are right, ex corp members in npc corps are probably blue to them. Sorry, my mistake.
Le Soltueur Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.01.02 08:02:00 - [19] Originally by: JerichoSteele -Please ignore the ill-mannered troll. If you don't like trolling, don't use forums. You're just whining because you aren't smart enough to do it yourself. Really, Jericho, spend some time training PVP support skills instead of your jer-bear skills and you might just be smart enough to figure out a few tricks too. Sadly though, I agree with MushMush. Even if you had a command ship on your side it probably wouldn't help.
a51 duke1406 Imperium Signal Corps Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.01.02 23:50:00 - [20] Well jericho. Look we read your post and we took an interest in it. We decided to take a look at the issue for ourselfs. Well we found a solution. Theres always a way in eve. We found one of your alts in an orca. Giving out free bonuses, allowing your alliance to do whatever. So like you, we had a problem. A nuetral alt helping our wts. Thus we suicided it. Get a bunch of ravens and kill it. No more alt giving out bonuses.
MushMush Minmatar Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.01.03 11:01:00 - [21] Well you must have him quite upset with your war dec. He even took the time to eve mail me threatening me to stay off his threads in the eve-o forums and he used some naughty words, what a potty mouth!
JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2010.01.03 17:23:00 - [22] Edited by: JerichoSteele on 03/01/2010 17:24:09 Originally by: a51 duke1406 We found one of your alts in an orca. Giving out free bonuses, allowing your alliance to do whatever. So like you, we had a problem. A nuetral alt helping our wts. Thus we suicided it. Get a bunch of ravens and kill it. No more alt giving out bonuses. The fact that you suicide-ganked a nuetral orca and lost a bunch of ships is neither here nor there. This thread is a discussion concerning a possible exploit, not an open invitation to display your limited vocabulary and logic-skills with inane and assinine trolls. Now that being said, this exploit is obviously very powerful, as the people who are using this tactic seem to be utterly unwilling to engage without it . . . and this is not hyperbole, we have screenshoots! And just out of curiousity, how many of those ships DID you lose to CONCORD during that suicide gank?
Mero Vigian	Posted - 2010.01.03 18:36:00 - [23] And just out of curiousity, how many of those ships DID you lose to CONCORD during that suicide gank? all of them?
Sturdy Girl Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.01.03 19:21:00 - [24] Jericho... Since it makes no difference if the bonus giver is on the same grid or elsewhere in the system, then it basically makes no difference whether they are an enemy or neutral... regardless, they can give that bonus from somewhere else where you cant shoot them. Surely you're a charismatic enough guy that you can persuade some of your own neutral friends to come along and provide bonuses aswell? I really don't see this game mechanic as being a problem.
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2010.01.03 19:32:00 - [25] Sounds like someone got spanked and can't live with the fact that someone knows how to use proper game mechanics to their advantage. The OP fails to realize that just by being in a fleet that bonuses are given, without needing a capital ship. The game is working as intended. The only thing that I would change is that pilots in NPC corps can't give fleet bonuses. That would allow you to then war dec them if they help one of your WT's. ------------------------------------
JerichoSteele The Free Haven Group Legions 0f Justice	Posted - 2010.01.03 20:19:00 - [26] Originally by: NightF0x Sounds like someone got spanked and can't live with the fact that someone knows how to use proper game mechanics to their advantage. -Every cheat in every game ever known to man uses this rationalization to justify their actions. For the record, we have war-decc'd the pilot who is providing the bonus, twice. They surrendered each time, then joined the TEARS alliance to prevent further war dec's. And while I realize that the person providing the bonus can be ANYWHERE in the system . . . being able to shoot at a target anywhere is better than not being able to engage a target directly in front of you. After speaking with the GM's, and getting multiple contradictory answers in return, I am convinced that no one knows what they are talking about. So that reduces the arguement to a very simple question: "Is it fair for someone to provide serious substantial support to a hostile fleet without drawing an aggression flag?" And despite the machismo and bravado displayed on this page, anyone who found themselves on the recieveing end of this exploit would feel the same as we do . . . this is an exploit, and as such should be fixed immediately
McCreary075 Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.01.03 21:14:00 - [27] I agree that the provided of passive bonuses is a bit underhanded, and I'm inclined to agree that something should be done. However, the potential solutions I've come up with are also unappealing. Solution 1. Flag them as targets. Okay, so a neutral joins Fleet A, and provides bonuses and now Fleet B can shoot him. Now once you shoot him, he can shoot back. Another ship that needs to be dropped, fun times. If this gets implemented, I'd imagine more people will do this, and they'll be doing it Abaddons, who wants more Abaddons to kill? Also, by patching it and adding it to the patch notes, more people will be aware of it, and will start doing it. It just doesn't seem like the appealing solution I was looking for. Solution 2. Do nothing, keep it as it is currently. Unappealing. Solution 3. Flag them as targetable, but make their aggression an act of Concord. So they get flagged, then attacked, and can't attack back??? Doesn't make any sense. Solution 4. Make providing passive bonuses to a fleet that is attacked by people you can't fight with count as aggression from Concord. They'll get crushed by Concord in high-sec, and in low-sec they'll take gate/station guns (I'm aware that they could just be in a safe the whole time, but this doesn't bother me too much). The downside of this is that is adds another way that people will trick others into getting Concordekkon'd. Out of all the solutions, I like 4 the best. In high-sec, no shenanigans are tolerated, and in low-sec you can easy avoid being shot, and in 0.0, no one cares, its still a free for all. I'd also apply this to neutral RR. In low-sec, if they do it on gates or a station, they'd get guns, and in hi-sec, concordekkon'd. Having said that, solution 4 is still moderately unappealing because it is undoubtedly the most restricting and harsh.
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2010.01.03 21:39:00 - [28] Originally by: McCreary075 I agree that the provided of passive bonuses is a bit underhanded, and I'm inclined to agree that something should be done. However, the potential solutions I've come up with are also unappealing. Solution 1. Flag them as targets. Okay, so a neutral joins Fleet A, and provides bonuses and now Fleet B can shoot him. Now once you shoot him, he can shoot back. Another ship that needs to be dropped, fun times. If this gets implemented, I'd imagine more people will do this, and they'll be doing it Abaddons, who wants more Abaddons to kill? Also, by patching it and adding it to the patch notes, more people will be aware of it, and will start doing it. It just doesn't seem like the appealing solution I was looking for. Solution 2. Do nothing, keep it as it is currently. Unappealing. Solution 3. Flag them as targetable, but make their aggression an act of Concord. So they get flagged, then attacked, and can't attack back??? Doesn't make any sense. Solution 4. Make providing passive bonuses to a fleet that is attacked by people you can't fight with count as aggression from Concord. They'll get crushed by Concord in high-sec, and in low-sec they'll take gate/station guns (I'm aware that they could just be in a safe the whole time, but this doesn't bother me too much). The downside of this is that is adds another way that people will trick others into getting Concordekkon'd. Out of all the solutions, I like 4 the best. In high-sec, no shenanigans are tolerated, and in low-sec you can easy avoid being shot, and in 0.0, no one cares, its still a free for all. I'd also apply this to neutral RR. In low-sec, if they do it on gates or a station, they'd get guns, and in hi-sec, concordekkon'd. Having said that, solution 4 is still moderately unappealing because it is undoubtedly the most restricting and harsh. So you want someone Concorded for giving one of your wartargets a fleet bonus...lmao talk about overkill. They understood the game mechanics better than the OP so they should be penalized? Don't think so. ------------------------------------
McCreary075 Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.01.03 22:15:00 - [29] Originally by: NightF0x So you want someone Concorded for giving one of your wartargets a fleet bonus...lmao talk about overkill. They understood the game mechanics better than the OP so they should be penalized? Don't think so. I told you I didn't like any of the solutions, I like 4 the best, but I still don't like it. I'm pretty sure you just chose to ignore my last statement there. But I don't consider getting fleet bonuses for free to be a legitimate tactic. Though, at least with neutral RR, they get flagged and are on the field to be shot at. With the neutral provided bonuses there is no risk at all. That is the problem.
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.01.03 22:55:00 - [30] How about this: Every fleet has an owner, which is the corp/alliance which created it, and which changes to whichever corp/alliance has the most pilots in it. Then you can apply any number of rules based on ownership. For example: Bonuses can only come from pilots in owning corp/alliance. Problem solved. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).

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