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0seeker0	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:25:00 - [61] Garius, i cant get my head around why a raven can take more damage in a shorter time than an apoc can in the same time. san. Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware. Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
0seeker0	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:25:00 - [62] Garius, i cant get my head around why a raven can take more damage in a shorter time than an apoc can in the same time. san. Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware. Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:27:00 - [63] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Gariuys Ever tried tanking a gankageddon with a armour tank? k, can't do it, ever tried with a raven shield tank, yep, can do it. Shield tank isn't worse, it's different, and extremely viable. Armour tank has over shield tanking that it's more easy to sustain, especially on a cap monster like the poc you can keep the tank going for ages, Raven can't as easily, but it can soak a lot more damage in the same time spam, play your strenghts instead of whining about your weaknesses. every geddon with pulse lasers is a fearsome damage dealer and i flown a armor tanked apoc, and armor tanked ravens, thy are sooo much better than any possible shield tank sry was a bit confusing, too damn tired, meant trying to tank gankageddon damage, in a armour tank or in a shield tank, it's much easier to do in a shield tank, since you can shaft your cap into defense much faster, armour tank sustains longer, but tanks less damage. Trade off is in part, that most armour tanks don't combine well with long range, since grid requirements and both offensive ( RCU, PDS ) and your entire defense are fighting for the same slots. Trouble is with ( IMHO ) amarr ships got so much grid and megapulses are so easy to fit and perform so well at reasonable ranges that you end up with a situation where some drawbacks of armour tanking don't really apply anymore. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:27:00 - [64] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Gariuys Ever tried tanking a gankageddon with a armour tank? k, can't do it, ever tried with a raven shield tank, yep, can do it. Shield tank isn't worse, it's different, and extremely viable. Armour tank has over shield tanking that it's more easy to sustain, especially on a cap monster like the poc you can keep the tank going for ages, Raven can't as easily, but it can soak a lot more damage in the same time spam, play your strenghts instead of whining about your weaknesses. every geddon with pulse lasers is a fearsome damage dealer and i flown a armor tanked apoc, and armor tanked ravens, thy are sooo much better than any possible shield tank sry was a bit confusing, too damn tired, meant trying to tank gankageddon damage, in a armour tank or in a shield tank, it's much easier to do in a shield tank, since you can shaft your cap into defense much faster, armour tank sustains longer, but tanks less damage. Trade off is in part, that most armour tanks don't combine well with long range, since grid requirements and both offensive ( RCU, PDS ) and your entire defense are fighting for the same slots. Trouble is with ( IMHO ) amarr ships got so much grid and megapulses are so easy to fit and perform so well at reasonable ranges that you end up with a situation where some drawbacks of armour tanking don't really apply anymore. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:31:00 - [65] Ships that armour tank (i.e apoc) often have less flexibility offensivly. i.e the main shield tankers, caldari are fully capable of using e-warfare to mess with their opponents. No matter how good an armour tank is if an apoc is target jammed its a sitting duck (barely an missile capacity and only guns, no realistic ew capability at all). The armour tank being better could be viewed basically as compensation for less tactical options presented by a lack of midslots. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.11.18 23:31:00 - [66] Ships that armour tank (i.e apoc) often have less flexibility offensivly. i.e the main shield tankers, caldari are fully capable of using e-warfare to mess with their opponents. No matter how good an armour tank is if an apoc is target jammed its a sitting duck (barely an missile capacity and only guns, no realistic ew capability at all). The armour tank being better could be viewed basically as compensation for less tactical options presented by a lack of midslots. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Reloaded INC	Posted - 2004.11.19 00:37:00 - [67] caldari should use their mids and lows for things over than amour tanking to be honest. scorpion with -24 target jam +25 sensor strength ... lets see an amour tanked or damage fitted amarr deal to that .. well ok they would probarly just sit dumb founded the scorp would fire some pretty sparklers and then run away. raven on the other hand with siege, ballistics and any room left for hardners or multis is quite a site to be rekined with. plenty of other ways to use a ship endowed with midslots other than sheild tank. now lets say we have a tanked scorpion we know they suck t3h diddley for dealing damage but i bet it could take one hell of a pounding. and ravens with tanks at close range eat all ships up as far as im aware. get inside that magic 10km range with a raven its all over rover. I am the bad guy the kriptonite the green cronic.
Reloaded INC	Posted - 2004.11.19 00:37:00 - [68] caldari should use their mids and lows for things over than amour tanking to be honest. scorpion with -24 target jam +25 sensor strength ... lets see an amour tanked or damage fitted amarr deal to that .. well ok they would probarly just sit dumb founded the scorp would fire some pretty sparklers and then run away. raven on the other hand with siege, ballistics and any room left for hardners or multis is quite a site to be rekined with. plenty of other ways to use a ship endowed with midslots other than sheild tank. now lets say we have a tanked scorpion we know they suck t3h diddley for dealing damage but i bet it could take one hell of a pounding. and ravens with tanks at close range eat all ships up as far as im aware. get inside that magic 10km range with a raven its all over rover. I am the bad guy the kriptonite the green cronic.
marioman	Posted - 2004.11.19 03:12:00 - [69] I'm not one to ask for nerfing so i would rather see shield tanking boosted in some way than armor tanking nerfed. As for a raven and its missles...you seem to be forgetting about the upcomin missle nerf. If you put a shield tanked raven and armor tanked apoc 1vs1 against each other...both equivilent skills, which one wins? An apoc can soak up all the damage a raven spits outs, but can a raven soak up all the damage an apoc spits out for as long? I know there was some1 on SiSi the other day goin on and on about how his apoc was soaking up all the damage a raven could dish out...ok but then i ask could a raven do the same thing to an apoc? my bet would be no. I mean seriously when people start tanking about armor tanking a Raven you know something is wrong.
marioman	Posted - 2004.11.19 03:12:00 - [70] I'm not one to ask for nerfing so i would rather see shield tanking boosted in some way than armor tanking nerfed. As for a raven and its missles...you seem to be forgetting about the upcomin missle nerf. If you put a shield tanked raven and armor tanked apoc 1vs1 against each other...both equivilent skills, which one wins? An apoc can soak up all the damage a raven spits outs, but can a raven soak up all the damage an apoc spits out for as long? I know there was some1 on SiSi the other day goin on and on about how his apoc was soaking up all the damage a raven could dish out...ok but then i ask could a raven do the same thing to an apoc? my bet would be no. I mean seriously when people start tanking about armor tanking a Raven you know something is wrong.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2004.11.19 04:11:00 - [71] Simple: MAKE CALDARI SHIPS EXEMPT FROM CPR NERF. This would make apocs unable to use 1 xl booster forever, but would also give Ravens the ability to last more than 15 seconds in a battle. -- Director of Ganking: Death Row Inc.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2004.11.19 04:11:00 - [72] Simple: MAKE CALDARI SHIPS EXEMPT FROM CPR NERF. This would make apocs unable to use 1 xl booster forever, but would also give Ravens the ability to last more than 15 seconds in a battle. -- Director of Ganking: Death Row Inc.
Black Lotus	Posted - 2004.11.19 06:07:00 - [73] LOL. ok. I have Ammar bs lvl 5. large enrgy lvl 5. basicly all my combat sp based around ammar. However with cal bs lvl 4, and torps lvl 4. I can tell u that a raven will pwn an armor tanked apoc. Raven can fit for amazing defense and massive fast dmg. Does it last long? no, but it doesnt need to in pvp. Same thing with tempest. It can use all lows for dmg, and mids for tanking. Apoc has to split this up between its midslots. Lasers do not need to be nerfed. neither does armor tanking. What needs to be balanced, is a even bigger STACKING penalty on dmg mods. Tempest\Raven > Apoc 1v1. Pure tank and dmg owns a half tank, half dmg setup anyday. People say theyve bought apocs, for what npc hunting? I have major skills for ammar and its uses. Yet i've now bought a raven.
Black Lotus	Posted - 2004.11.19 06:07:00 - [74] LOL. ok. I have Ammar bs lvl 5. large enrgy lvl 5. basicly all my combat sp based around ammar. However with cal bs lvl 4, and torps lvl 4. I can tell u that a raven will pwn an armor tanked apoc. Raven can fit for amazing defense and massive fast dmg. Does it last long? no, but it doesnt need to in pvp. Same thing with tempest. It can use all lows for dmg, and mids for tanking. Apoc has to split this up between its midslots. Lasers do not need to be nerfed. neither does armor tanking. What needs to be balanced, is a even bigger STACKING penalty on dmg mods. Tempest\Raven > Apoc 1v1. Pure tank and dmg owns a half tank, half dmg setup anyday. People say theyve bought apocs, for what npc hunting? I have major skills for ammar and its uses. Yet i've now bought a raven.
Black Lotus	Posted - 2004.11.19 06:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Hamatitio Simple: MAKE CALDARI SHIPS EXEMPT FROM CPR NERF. This would make apocs unable to use 1 xl booster forever, but would also give Ravens the ability to last more than 15 seconds in a battle. LOL, pls tell me ur not talking about putting cpr's on a pvp setup... hahaha....
Black Lotus	Posted - 2004.11.19 06:11:00 - [76] Originally by: Hamatitio Simple: MAKE CALDARI SHIPS EXEMPT FROM CPR NERF. This would make apocs unable to use 1 xl booster forever, but would also give Ravens the ability to last more than 15 seconds in a battle. LOL, pls tell me ur not talking about putting cpr's on a pvp setup... hahaha....
DeFood	Posted - 2004.11.19 08:35:00 - [77] Armor tanking (and or the ridiculous hull tanking) is stupid. We should need to carry Tritanium around at least to be used to rebuild the armor. Or we should always need to dock to repair armor and hull.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.11.19 08:35:00 - [78] Armor tanking (and or the ridiculous hull tanking) is stupid. We should need to carry Tritanium around at least to be used to rebuild the armor. Or we should always need to dock to repair armor and hull.
Luc Boye	Posted - 2004.11.19 08:52:00 - [79] Originally by: Mongo Peck The only balance that needs addressing is either .. They remove the Capacitor Power Relay -10% Shield Boost from Shield Modules or the introduce the same effect for Cap Rechargers on Armour Repairs. Everyone suddenly bought Amarr (including myself) why? Because Armour Tanking out proforms Shield Tanking. Capacitor is life .... Nah, it would further nerf megathron. Megathron cant either shield nor armor tank properly, Raven could shield tank as much as Apoc could armor tank before cap relay nerf. The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Luc Boye	Posted - 2004.11.19 08:52:00 - [80] Originally by: Mongo Peck The only balance that needs addressing is either .. They remove the Capacitor Power Relay -10% Shield Boost from Shield Modules or the introduce the same effect for Cap Rechargers on Armour Repairs. Everyone suddenly bought Amarr (including myself) why? Because Armour Tanking out proforms Shield Tanking. Capacitor is life .... Nah, it would further nerf megathron. Megathron cant either shield nor armor tank properly, Raven could shield tank as much as Apoc could armor tank before cap relay nerf. The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.11.19 09:14:00 - [81] Originally by: Luc Boye The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. Similar unbalance to Caldari being missile monsters? ¼©¼ a history
Riddari	Posted - 2004.11.19 09:14:00 - [82] Originally by: Luc Boye The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. Similar unbalance to Caldari being missile monsters? ¼©¼ a history
DeFood	Posted - 2004.11.19 09:17:00 - [83] Yet again we bump into problems caused by CCPs instance on adhoc blancing rather than adherence to a rigorous physics model.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.11.19 09:17:00 - [84] Yet again we bump into problems caused by CCPs instance on adhoc blancing rather than adherence to a rigorous physics model.
Rytir	Posted - 2004.11.19 13:52:00 - [85] Edited by: Rytir on 19/11/2004 14:15:40 Edited by: Rytir on 19/11/2004 13:55:26 Originally by: Luc Boye Originally by: Mongo Peck The only balance that needs addressing is either .. They remove the Capacitor Power Relay -10% Shield Boost from Shield Modules or the introduce the same effect for Cap Rechargers on Armour Repairs. Everyone suddenly bought Amarr (including myself) why? Because Armour Tanking out proforms Shield Tanking. Capacitor is life .... Nah, it would further nerf megathron. Megathron cant either shield nor armor tank properly, Raven could shield tank as much as Apoc could armor tank before cap relay nerf. The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. and you sir are thinking just for defense, remember that the apoc and geddon have a bonus on lasers and they use alot of cap. but to use the apoc or geddon properly you need to train alot of skills to lvl 5, therefore nerfing amarr ships will kill off the use of the apoc or geddon forever. Remove the cap power relay penelty or reduce it. also higher penelty's on the stacking of damage mods would also reduce the effectivness of the gankgeddon. EDIT : another thing is the gankageddon is a pure offensive setup (no defense at all) so the damage it can do is at a big risk of losing the ship very quickly. so as it stands the gankageddon is not an exploit or unfair as it dies quick if it's jammed and scrambled. so i think over all balance(except for the cap power relay nerf) is very good. flame at will as this is what i believe
Rytir	Posted - 2004.11.19 13:52:00 - [86] Edited by: Rytir on 19/11/2004 14:15:40 Edited by: Rytir on 19/11/2004 13:55:26 Originally by: Luc Boye Originally by: Mongo Peck The only balance that needs addressing is either .. They remove the Capacitor Power Relay -10% Shield Boost from Shield Modules or the introduce the same effect for Cap Rechargers on Armour Repairs. Everyone suddenly bought Amarr (including myself) why? Because Armour Tanking out proforms Shield Tanking. Capacitor is life .... Nah, it would further nerf megathron. Megathron cant either shield nor armor tank properly, Raven could shield tank as much as Apoc could armor tank before cap relay nerf. The real problem is that all defence is based on cap, and amarr are cap monsters. That's the unbalance right there. and you sir are thinking just for defense, remember that the apoc and geddon have a bonus on lasers and they use alot of cap. but to use the apoc or geddon properly you need to train alot of skills to lvl 5, therefore nerfing amarr ships will kill off the use of the apoc or geddon forever. Remove the cap power relay penelty or reduce it. also higher penelty's on the stacking of damage mods would also reduce the effectivness of the gankgeddon. EDIT : another thing is the gankageddon is a pure offensive setup (no defense at all) so the damage it can do is at a big risk of losing the ship very quickly. so as it stands the gankageddon is not an exploit or unfair as it dies quick if it's jammed and scrambled. so i think over all balance(except for the cap power relay nerf) is very good. flame at will as this is what i believe
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.19 15:51:00 - [87] Edited by: Pottsey on 19/11/2004 15:57:19 "Is there any circumstances in which the passive regeneration of shields becomes usefull? Im thinking here along the lines of shield extenders. I have always flown gallante so dont know much about shield tank, TBH." Yes passive shield tanking can be usefull but it has a different set of problems then normal tanking along with different good points. Passive tanking is perfact for agent running you donÆt even have to worry about turning you shields on and off they are always on and never drain cap. My passive Gallante tank gets 102 shield points per second or 408 over 4 seconds. Which I think is useful some of the time. If you need more then 102 points per second passive tanks are not usefull for you. The other problem with passive tanking is there are no T2 low slots modules that boost passive thanking yet. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Pottsey	Posted - 2004.11.19 15:51:00 - [88] Edited by: Pottsey on 19/11/2004 15:57:19 "Is there any circumstances in which the passive regeneration of shields becomes usefull? Im thinking here along the lines of shield extenders. I have always flown gallante so dont know much about shield tank, TBH." Yes passive shield tanking can be usefull but it has a different set of problems then normal tanking along with different good points. Passive tanking is perfact for agent running you donÆt even have to worry about turning you shields on and off they are always on and never drain cap. My passive Gallante tank gets 102 shield points per second or 408 over 4 seconds. Which I think is useful some of the time. If you need more then 102 points per second passive tanks are not usefull for you. The other problem with passive tanking is there are no T2 low slots modules that boost passive thanking yet. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Jan Ors	Posted - 2004.11.19 15:52:00 - [89] Simple Solution: À Get rid of the -10% shield boost on the Cap Power Relay. À Give Capacitor Rechargers and Cap Power Relays the same bonus to cap recharge. À Give both modules some proper fitting requirements - as to not have ships with both best weapons + tank. Make different versions for each ship size. À Capacitor Rechargers should need a lot of power, cap power relays should need a lot of cpu. It's just silly that both these modules have pathetically small fitting requirements, and is really the cause of all these problems. At the moment they are no-brainer modules. ________ My chosen sig won't fit. Fah.
Jan Ors	Posted - 2004.11.19 15:52:00 - [90] Simple Solution: À Get rid of the -10% shield boost on the Cap Power Relay. À Give Capacitor Rechargers and Cap Power Relays the same bonus to cap recharge. À Give both modules some proper fitting requirements - as to not have ships with both best weapons + tank. Make different versions for each ship size. À Capacitor Rechargers should need a lot of power, cap power relays should need a lot of cpu. It's just silly that both these modules have pathetically small fitting requirements, and is really the cause of all these problems. At the moment they are no-brainer modules. ________ My chosen sig won't fit. Fah.

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