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ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.04 18:08:00 - [31] Sin and Kronos hulls need to be swapped. Give the kronos 20% to drone damage/gall bs level. Done. Wouldn't fix the problem of gallente having no midrange weapon, but at least they would both be a little less ****tier.
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2010.01.04 18:46:00 - [32] Kronos sure could use extra 50m drone bandwidth at least. It¦s pretty lackluster PVE ship for most part atm.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.01.04 18:48:00 - [33] Just because I can't resist a thread like this... OP: The fact that there are rabid supporters of the Paladin, Golem, and Vargur should show that no matter which of the ships you go for, you're probably going to love the isk you rake in. I have a feeling that the arguments over which is "best" would probably come down to single-digit differences in mission completion times now. When you get efficient to the point where deciding whether to go take a leak or not between gates significantly changes the amount of isk/hour you'll make, it probably isn't worth arguing over which is superior. So it comes down to: Do you like missiles or guns? Which race's BSs would you be happier flying for other purposes? Answer those, and you'll have your ship. And yes...poor Kronos. Though it isn't as good as the others for PVE, I've seen it wreck first-hand in PVP. The ship has great bonuses, just not for what it was meant to do...
Namaraa	Posted - 2010.01.04 19:49:00 - [34] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Naomi Knight Locking is needed for drone control or they just do whatever they want ,which is bad. Your assertion that "drones doing what they want is bad" is just that - an assertion. Sadly, it's the wrong assertion. Using light drones (for me, IME, which is not insignificant at all) results in the drones clearing out frigates first, and then moving on to cruisers. Sometimes they get hung up on aggression order - but that generally gets sorted out pretty quickly and requires locking no more than 1 frig through the whole mission (to reassign drone aggro). -Liang I agree on what he is saying, aggro everything release drones (make sure to have it set-up to aggressive) and voila you kill bs/cruiser then tractor everything to one spot while your drones kill frigs.
jhon whang	Posted - 2010.01.04 20:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Hera Ominae I had caldari beast Golem pilot, nearly everything maxed out and T2 rigged Golem. Still I had to use afterburner if I wanted just smash through the missions instead of waiting them to arrive into range. Actually pretty fast I sold Golem and took back the pimped CNR wich did around 500-600 dps, while Golem sure did more with javelins, but the range! And the huge problem with Golem is the fact that many NPC's just kill your DPS with defenders. That's kind of a self contradiction. With a golem you either have to overcome range or defenders, not both. Torps are all but immune to defenders.
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.04 20:26:00 - [36] Originally by: jhon whang That's kind of a self contradiction. With a golem you either have to overcome range or defenders, not both. Torps are all but immune to defenders. Amusing fact: fitting missile velocity rigs makes you immune to defenders even at long range. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.01.04 20:27:00 - [37] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 03/01/2010 00:49:51 Originally by: debbie harrio The Vargur was always a very close second behind the Golem, better for Angels. Now it is a decimating uber maurader. Paladin is first by faaaaar, somewhere in the shadow behind the Paladin you can see the Golem and the Vargur if you got good eyes :) But since Dominion, I can see Vargur > Golem I think. Vargur>paladin for all minus sansha/bloodraider (Vargur is actually better on many of them)
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.04 20:37:00 - [38] Originally by: Miriiah Vargur>paladin for all minus sansha/bloodraider (Vargur is actually better on many of them) Paladin > Vargur definitely for Sansha/Blood Raider/Drones (essentially anything EM weak). I can see the Vargur pulling ahead because of damage type selection against things like Angels and Guristas... but the optimal on Tachs is really really huge and even with a huge falloff you're still looking at falloff. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.01.04 21:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: jhon whang That's kind of a self contradiction. With a golem you either have to overcome range or defenders, not both. Torps are all but immune to defenders. Amusing fact: fitting missile velocity rigs makes you immune to defenders even at long range. -Liang How so? ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.04 21:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Terianna Eri How so? The NPC defenders seem to launch and travel about half way between you and them, and then race (very very quickly I might add!) towards your missiles... but they can't catch up before your (also very fast, but slightly slower) missiles impact the target. I noticed this when I was running cruise on my Golem (dual missile velocity rigs) for Serp Blockade. I imagine the phenomenon would be even more pronounced with a CNR... but I don't think it would be worth trading your rigors for. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.01.04 22:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Miriiah Vargur>paladin for all minus sansha/bloodraider (Vargur is actually better on many of them) Paladin > Vargur definitely for Sansha/Blood Raider/Drones (essentially anything EM weak). I can see the Vargur pulling ahead because of damage type selection against things like Angels and Guristas... but the optimal on Tachs is really really huge and even with a huge falloff you're still looking at falloff. -Liang on most missions Paladin will > Vargur vs sansha yes, so overall it's better vs sansha/BR but saying Paladin is better vs drones is wrong
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2010.01.04 23:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Miriiah Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Miriiah Vargur>paladin for all minus sansha/bloodraider (Vargur is actually better on many of them) Paladin > Vargur definitely for Sansha/Blood Raider/Drones (essentially anything EM weak). I can see the Vargur pulling ahead because of damage type selection against things like Angels and Guristas... but the optimal on Tachs is really really huge and even with a huge falloff you're still looking at falloff. -Liang on most missions Paladin will > Vargur vs sansha yes, so overall it's better vs sansha/BR but saying Paladin is better vs drones is wrong He is, just learn how to Falloff.
Elsa Nietzsche	Posted - 2010.01.05 00:11:00 - [43] I hear the Kronos is the best salvage boat. C/D? 4 tractors, 3 salvager IIs and cargo expanders right?
JonnyKay Gallente Xatorez	Posted - 2010.01.05 02:42:00 - [44] I'm looking into getting a Vargur for running level 4 Amarr missions: thread I made here containing the fitting I suggested (I don't fly amarr ships so paladin is completely out of the question..). I can also fly the Golem if I want to, but my missile skills aren't as great as my turret skills (I have Elite in Turret Control, Private in Missile Control, can still use T2 launchers though..) Would it still be advisable to get the Vargur for running Amarr level 4 missions anyway, or should I just settle for the Golem even though my missile skills aren't as perfect as my Projectile? From the way I see it, the Vargur has the advantage of having instant damage, faster guns etc... _________________________________________________ "Being Minmatar is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing an Uzi"
Kenpotchi	Posted - 2010.01.05 03:03:00 - [45] I dont see why not. You can use RF EMP for more DPS
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:12:00 - [46] Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: Miriiah Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Miriiah Vargur>paladin for all minus sansha/bloodraider (Vargur is actually better on many of them) Paladin > Vargur definitely for Sansha/Blood Raider/Drones (essentially anything EM weak). I can see the Vargur pulling ahead because of damage type selection against things like Angels and Guristas... but the optimal on Tachs is really really huge and even with a huge falloff you're still looking at falloff. -Liang on most missions Paladin will > Vargur vs sansha yes, so overall it's better vs sansha/BR but saying Paladin is better vs drones is wrong He is, just learn how to Falloff. I know how to falloff, and following the falloff stuff people have posted about my Vargur still does 900 dps at 40km, using RF ammo :x Drones (there's like 3 of them, on 2 of them Vargur is best, Infiltrated Outposts Paladin is best) due to paladin getting tracking issues on the other ones pretty often
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2010 19:17:29 Originally by: Miriiah I know how to falloff, and following the falloff stuff people have posted about my Vargur still does 900 dps at 40km, using RF ammo :x Drones (there's like 3 of them, on 2 of them Vargur is best, Infiltrated Outposts Paladin is best) due to paladin getting tracking issues on the other ones pretty often I think what we decided was that you have officer gyros and 5% hardwirings on your Vargur. And then you want to compare that to faction HS and no implant Paladins. -Liang Ed: "1163 DPS Vargur" = 5% hardwirings, 4 Tobias Modified Gyros, RF EMP, Ignore reload time -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:18:00 - [48] Edited by: Miriiah on 05/01/2010 19:20:33 Edited by: Miriiah on 05/01/2010 19:19:00 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2010 19:17:29 Originally by: Miriiah I know how to falloff, and following the falloff stuff people have posted about my Vargur still does 900 dps at 40km, using RF ammo :x Drones (there's like 3 of them, on 2 of them Vargur is best, Infiltrated Outposts Paladin is best) due to paladin getting tracking issues on the other ones pretty often I think what we decided was that you have officer gyros and 5% hardwirings on your Vargur. And then you want to compare that to faction HS and no implant Paladins. -Liang Ed: "1163 DPS Vargur" = 5% hardwirings, 4 Tobias Modified Gyros, RF EMP, Ignore reload time Wrong X( TC TC TE t1 Ambit for falloff(everyone counts 5% implants), damage. 4* RF Gyro and 1* t2 RoF rig, 5 in AC spec(4 is 1140'ish) I did sorta ignore reload times yeah, as you have to reload like, once every pocket of a mission.
Liang Nuren The Lollypop Factory	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:42:00 - [49] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2010 19:44:24 Originally by: Miriiah TC TC TE t1 Ambit for falloff(everyone counts 5% implants), damage. 4* RF Gyro and 1* t2 RoF rig, 5 in AC spec(4 is 1140'ish) I did sorta ignore reload times yeah, as you have to reload like, once every pocket of a mission. Ranking in order of DPS@40km: Golem DPS (Faction) = 1103 DPS @ 45km [Full Damage Type Selection] Paladin DPS => 1012 DPS @ 48km Your Vargur DPS => 882 @ 43km [Partial Damage Type Selection] Golem DPS (Javs) => 864 DPS @ 68km [Full Damage Type Selection] Cruise Golem (Fury) => 847 DPS @ 240km [Full Damage Type Selection] And no, tachs don't have trouble hitting in drone missions. At least, I don't. With Tachs. -Liang Ed: BTW, I'm only able to get 1134 DPS out of the Vargur fit you've given me - with 5% hardwirings. Where's the extra 30 coming from? I'm using ZGC, G2-Delta, LX-2. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Miriiah	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:53:00 - [50] Edited by: Miriiah on 05/01/2010 19:54:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/01/2010 19:44:24 Originally by: Miriiah TC TC TE t1 Ambit for falloff(everyone counts 5% implants), damage. 4* RF Gyro and 1* t2 RoF rig, 5 in AC spec(4 is 1140'ish) I did sorta ignore reload times yeah, as you have to reload like, once every pocket of a mission. Ranking in order of DPS@40km: Golem DPS (Faction) = 1103 DPS @ 45km [Full Damage Type Selection] Paladin DPS => 1012 DPS @ 48km Your Vargur DPS => 882 @ 43km [Partial Damage Type Selection] Golem DPS (Javs) => 864 DPS @ 68km [Full Damage Type Selection] Cruise Golem (Fury) => 847 DPS @ 240km [Full Damage Type Selection] And no, tachs don't have trouble hitting in drone missions. At least, I don't. With Tachs. -Liang Ed: BTW, I'm only able to get 1134 DPS out of the Vargur fit you've given me - with 5% hardwirings. Where's the extra 30 coming from? I'm using ZGC, G2-Delta, LX-2. EFT Told me, and I've flown a paladin and some of the cruiser drones like to go under your guns very fast on atleast one of the two drone missions(one that spawns ships per drone you kill(4-5 initial drones), but this thread was mainly about best runner overall, and atm that is the Vargur :p flown both Golem and Vargur with max skills and Vargur wins out due to all the small ****zle you have to shoot. Might just be me being very unlucky with the spawns, but often had cruisers go below my guns on my Paladin even with 2 TC's Another thing you should kinda count aswell(esp as you were talking about reload time) is the overkill you'd do with your mega alpha firing Tachyons which is sorta nice with a 2.96 S RoF Vargur, won't overkill nearly as much.
Megabot10k	Posted - 2010.01.05 20:11:00 - [51] OP here, well i wasn't expecting a definite answer to my question, but was hoping to see a general preference to which maruader is 'best' ( i use that term lightly as i know there is no such thing as a best ship ). Overall from what i have read, the only conclusion i can really draw at the moment, is that the kronos sucks compared to the other marauders. While the others all seem equally pretty good. I admit that i might change from going for a golem to say a paladin or vargur as i like the idea of popping frigs from range while i let the battleships come closer (within 40km, only ships worth looting or salvaging imho) then kill them with ease. Thanks for all the replies and keep them coming.

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