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Shiva kill missions - some observations

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Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 08:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Mitchman on 21/11/2004 14:48:22 I've tested the kill missions in Shiva fairly extensively lately, and I have some feedback: - The Guristas kill missions are generally well balanced and offer a challenge without a high chance of being killed - There is one mission where you are supposed to assassinate a guy (Ex-Elite agent or somesuch), and when he's dead, 20+ Mercenary ships spawn. This mission is too hard, and it's a misleading as to what the objective is. The missile spawn they send at you is not tankable in an apoc with 2 large accoms with hardeners. - Likewise, the other mercenary missions with the battleships is also too hard (unless it was toned down the last month or so). Been a while since I tried this one, so it might have been nerfed a bit. Part of the reason these are so hard is the sheer number of ships and the crazy missile spawning they do. Generally, I think lvl 4 missions shouldn't have more than 15 ships. Too many ships will overwhelm most players, and possibly cause panic. If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back. All missions have been tested with an apoc with 2 large accoms repairers and 3 hardeners, 2 hardeners on the primary dmg type, 1 on the secondary. EDIT: Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 08:44:00 - [2] Edited by: Mitchman on 21/11/2004 14:48:22 I've tested the kill missions in Shiva fairly extensively lately, and I have some feedback: - The Guristas kill missions are generally well balanced and offer a challenge without a high chance of being killed - There is one mission where you are supposed to assassinate a guy (Ex-Elite agent or somesuch), and when he's dead, 20+ Mercenary ships spawn. This mission is too hard, and it's a misleading as to what the objective is. The missile spawn they send at you is not tankable in an apoc with 2 large accoms with hardeners. - Likewise, the other mercenary missions with the battleships is also too hard (unless it was toned down the last month or so). Been a while since I tried this one, so it might have been nerfed a bit. Part of the reason these are so hard is the sheer number of ships and the crazy missile spawning they do. Generally, I think lvl 4 missions shouldn't have more than 15 ships. Too many ships will overwhelm most players, and possibly cause panic. If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back. All missions have been tested with an apoc with 2 large accoms repairers and 3 hardeners, 2 hardeners on the primary dmg type, 1 on the secondary. EDIT: Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.11.21 10:05:00 - [3] Originally by: Mitchman If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back. If you insist on soloing lvl 4 missions, be better prepared. The only cocnern I have with the number of ships is the fact that they are very hard to distinguish in the tactical overview given that they all have multiple compound names and nobody will seriously want to strech the scanner window across the entire screen to see what's shooting at them. But with the addition of new bookmarks to People & Places with every new wave, even the "hard" lvl 4 missions have become very manageable as the tedium of creating new warp-in points by yourself has been removed. They're still next to no fun nor a very economic pastime but within the logic of CCP's missions system, they fit. JP Beauregard === The Pilkington Guides to EVE ===
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.11.21 10:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Mitchman If you insist on keeping the the mercenary missions as they are, then remove the warp scrambling on them so it's possible to warp out and back. If you insist on soloing lvl 4 missions, be better prepared. The only cocnern I have with the number of ships is the fact that they are very hard to distinguish in the tactical overview given that they all have multiple compound names and nobody will seriously want to strech the scanner window across the entire screen to see what's shooting at them. But with the addition of new bookmarks to People & Places with every new wave, even the "hard" lvl 4 missions have become very manageable as the tedium of creating new warp-in points by yourself has been removed. They're still next to no fun nor a very economic pastime but within the logic of CCP's missions system, they fit. JP Beauregard === The Pilkington Guides to EVE ===
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 10:09:00 - [5] O dear god it started already please dont cry nerf If its to hard for you it dosnt meen its to hard for every one else. Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 10:09:00 - [6] O dear god it started already please dont cry nerf If its to hard for you it dosnt meen its to hard for every one else. Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 11:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Lord Anubis Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can Well, thank you for that enlightened and constructive post and congratulations for missing the point. </sarcasm>
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 11:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Anubis Change your setup or tatics but dont scream nerf remember your not the best pilot out there and if you cant do it, it dosent mean no one else can Well, thank you for that enlightened and constructive post and congratulations for missing the point. </sarcasm>
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 13:38:00 - [9] lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5 You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 13:38:00 - [10] lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5 You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 13:39:00 - [11] and what good is a mission if you can always run away and then come back this takes away any risk there might be You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 13:39:00 - [12] and what good is a mission if you can always run away and then come back this takes away any risk there might be You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 14:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Lord Anubis lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5 Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.21 14:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord Anubis lol what point ur saying its to hard and u want it nerfed so u can solo right or wrong lol this game dont evole round u if you cant do it others can but once level 4 missions are realsed you will see dozens of these threads poping up all crying nerf and then ccp will back down .... they all ways do then we will get agent level 3.5 Current missions are made for soloing. They NPC will not go aggressive on any mates you might bring with you, so the first person to fire OR the person doing the mission will get all the heat. My comments are in light of this fact.
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 15:00:00 - [15] agreed but at current ccp said this is made for groups perhaps they will inhance the ai to select ramdom ships in an aggressive group which will improve not only level 4 missions but the harder complixes as well You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 15:00:00 - [16] agreed but at current ccp said this is made for groups perhaps they will inhance the ai to select ramdom ships in an aggressive group which will improve not only level 4 missions but the harder complixes as well You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.21 16:40:00 - [17] Mitchman, i think you misinterpret a bug for a feature. What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. If agression is really as bugged as you say Mitchman, ccp totally ****** up, as everyone and their dog will be exploiting that.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.21 16:40:00 - [18] Mitchman, i think you misinterpret a bug for a feature. What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. If agression is really as bugged as you say Mitchman, ccp totally ****** up, as everyone and their dog will be exploiting that.
WhiteTiger	Posted - 2004.11.21 17:05:00 - [19] You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions. However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions...
WhiteTiger	Posted - 2004.11.21 17:05:00 - [20] You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions. However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions...
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:27:00 - [21] Originally by: WhiteTiger You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions. However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions... as i feared and already said it will get nefed as there are poeple out there who think if they cant do it no one can You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Lord Anubis	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:27:00 - [22] Originally by: WhiteTiger You should not be able to do all the missions by just turning on a few armor hardeners and a couple armor reps on you apoc and warping and killing everything solo. I like the missions right now they don't tell you everything so you can at least have some excitement the first time you do the missions. However, I guess they will likely be nerfed when everyone like you whines that they lose ships if they try to run them solo just like the lvl 3 missions... as i feared and already said it will get nefed as there are poeple out there who think if they cant do it no one can You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia
Papolytic	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:51:00 - [23] I'm probably hovering somewhere around the >100 mark on lvl 4 missions over the last 3 weeks. Perhaps >200. Its difficult to tell since they all blend together and I've wasted plenty of time on POS's, complexes and doing crazy junk for the devs/bh's: Lvl 4 missions --- - They're no more difficult than lvl 3 missions. You have to be setup to do them, period. - Out of all those lvl 4 kill missions, I've gotten 1 nice drop, and the rest usually requires getting your indy and requires your picking up about 2000m3 of crap. (literally) - I've done them in 0.0 and in .8 (I think .8 but its >.7 and in empire). There's little difference. - Since 2 patches back, with the introduction of the 'deadspace/complex' missions, a new set of problems has arisen. Every deadspace mission fails with a 'computer crashed' error. This means that you accept it, the agent says "My system crashed" and you get the next mission, which often is cycling back to some mission you just had before. This makes it at least, appear that the mission have been severely nerfed if the mission you're stuck on is an easy one. - Yes, there's easy lvl 4 missions, and a lot of them. At first, before deadspace ones, I'd only gotten harder missions that were fun for 2 or 3 times, but were boring after that. From my standpoint, there's just certainly nothing to gripe about, whether you're a 0.0 inhabitant, or in empire. If you think a mission is too tough, then reject the damn thing (-> original poster guy). If you think empire players are getting too much for too little risk, you're wrong. Empire people aren't getting very much for the privilige of being bored by easy missions that sometimes have BS's. If you're an ammo user and can manage to pay for ammo on a lvl 4 mission, you're doing great. The deciding factor on how these l4 kills play out has nothing to do with what you're seeing. I've filed over 50 bug reports, nearly all about very fundamental problems that would drive you all nuts, like not being able to divide/stack elements in cargo etc. Its difficult to worry about balance which can be tweaked at the drop of a TomB or PSmurf at any time after release. When Complexes - in - missions are actually working and not giving the agents panic attacks, then it may become more interesting, so if 50% of your missions are no-go's, who the hell knows what they might have been? (ok, for those who can't figure that out, no one knows). I'm still logging on to change skills once in a while and will happily observe the "I lost my ship. I demand to talk to a GM!!!!" comments in help-chat on release day, but making assumptions about the current 'state-of-nerf' is about as accurate as TV weather forcasts. Papol But my real gripe is that our most current patched Shiva is probably a 'release candidate' and basic hangar item movement doesn't work. I reported it as my first bug ~1 month ago, and have reported it again after each patch. I won't go into the other uncountable basic bugs.
Papolytic	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:51:00 - [24] I'm probably hovering somewhere around the >100 mark on lvl 4 missions over the last 3 weeks. Perhaps >200. Its difficult to tell since they all blend together and I've wasted plenty of time on POS's, complexes and doing crazy junk for the devs/bh's: Lvl 4 missions --- - They're no more difficult than lvl 3 missions. You have to be setup to do them, period. - Out of all those lvl 4 kill missions, I've gotten 1 nice drop, and the rest usually requires getting your indy and requires your picking up about 2000m3 of crap. (literally) - I've done them in 0.0 and in .8 (I think .8 but its >.7 and in empire). There's little difference. - Since 2 patches back, with the introduction of the 'deadspace/complex' missions, a new set of problems has arisen. Every deadspace mission fails with a 'computer crashed' error. This means that you accept it, the agent says "My system crashed" and you get the next mission, which often is cycling back to some mission you just had before. This makes it at least, appear that the mission have been severely nerfed if the mission you're stuck on is an easy one. - Yes, there's easy lvl 4 missions, and a lot of them. At first, before deadspace ones, I'd only gotten harder missions that were fun for 2 or 3 times, but were boring after that. From my standpoint, there's just certainly nothing to gripe about, whether you're a 0.0 inhabitant, or in empire. If you think a mission is too tough, then reject the damn thing (-> original poster guy). If you think empire players are getting too much for too little risk, you're wrong. Empire people aren't getting very much for the privilige of being bored by easy missions that sometimes have BS's. If you're an ammo user and can manage to pay for ammo on a lvl 4 mission, you're doing great. The deciding factor on how these l4 kills play out has nothing to do with what you're seeing. I've filed over 50 bug reports, nearly all about very fundamental problems that would drive you all nuts, like not being able to divide/stack elements in cargo etc. Its difficult to worry about balance which can be tweaked at the drop of a TomB or PSmurf at any time after release. When Complexes - in - missions are actually working and not giving the agents panic attacks, then it may become more interesting, so if 50% of your missions are no-go's, who the hell knows what they might have been? (ok, for those who can't figure that out, no one knows). I'm still logging on to change skills once in a while and will happily observe the "I lost my ship. I demand to talk to a GM!!!!" comments in help-chat on release day, but making assumptions about the current 'state-of-nerf' is about as accurate as TV weather forcasts. Papol But my real gripe is that our most current patched Shiva is probably a 'release candidate' and basic hangar item movement doesn't work. I reported it as my first bug ~1 month ago, and have reported it again after each patch. I won't go into the other uncountable basic bugs.
Silex D'Arden	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:55:00 - [25] I did a lvl 3 mission in my moa on shiva and got my ass handed to me not once, twice, but 3 times......blackbirds warping in and frigates everywhere.....finally a good challenge...thank you CCP!!!!
Silex D'Arden	Posted - 2004.11.21 18:55:00 - [26] I did a lvl 3 mission in my moa on shiva and got my ass handed to me not once, twice, but 3 times......blackbirds warping in and frigates everywhere.....finally a good challenge...thank you CCP!!!!
Calculon	Posted - 2004.11.21 20:03:00 - [27] Are you talking about Silence the Informant mission? That mission was easy. they couldn't take down half of my raven shield. you probably have tracking problems with your apoc setup
Calculon	Posted - 2004.11.21 20:03:00 - [28] Are you talking about Silence the Informant mission? That mission was easy. they couldn't take down half of my raven shield. you probably have tracking problems with your apoc setup
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.22 04:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Arthur Guinness What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.22 04:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Arthur Guinness What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch.

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