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Shiva kill missions - some observations

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Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.22 07:23:00 - [31] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Arthur Guinness What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch. well what can i say ccp ****** up then. missions like these are pointless, you can use intie + gankageddon todo the mission riskfree and actually in bonus time :/ ccp change that agression algorithm :(
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.22 07:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Arthur Guinness What you describe is bugged aggression code for npcs. And it's exploitable. Just use a 10mn ab crow + an arma to do them. Send the crow in, have all npc's agress on it, then bring the arma in close range to kill the spawn. It's not a bug. It was designed that way so the blockade mission npc wouldn't shoot at random people at the gates. Imagine lvl 4 BS npc going agressive against everybody close to a gate? Ouch. well what can i say ccp ****** up then. missions like these are pointless, you can use intie + gankageddon todo the mission riskfree and actually in bonus time :/ ccp change that agression algorithm :(
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.11.22 09:05:00 - [33] LOL I dont believe it. Thats going to result in a wtfpwned inty far to often on these level 4 missions. Inty pilots will tell you they can take out a BS solo what they CANT do is easily deal with the frigate guards. Ever seen what happens to a solo inty after its webbed and being shot at by a bunch of frigate guns? Its quick trip to pod-freedom usually before the inty pilot can figure out he has been had. An inty doesnt last much longer then a newbie ship once it starts getting hit. Anyway this guys plan is to send an inty into a bunch of frigates with webbers and call it "Risk free". I wouldnt bother with the crys for nerf until you see multiple people telling you they can do level 4 agent missions like that. Until then all i expect to read is how your inty got wtfpwned.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.11.22 09:05:00 - [34] LOL I dont believe it. Thats going to result in a wtfpwned inty far to often on these level 4 missions. Inty pilots will tell you they can take out a BS solo what they CANT do is easily deal with the frigate guards. Ever seen what happens to a solo inty after its webbed and being shot at by a bunch of frigate guns? Its quick trip to pod-freedom usually before the inty pilot can figure out he has been had. An inty doesnt last much longer then a newbie ship once it starts getting hit. Anyway this guys plan is to send an inty into a bunch of frigates with webbers and call it "Risk free". I wouldnt bother with the crys for nerf until you see multiple people telling you they can do level 4 agent missions like that. Until then all i expect to read is how your inty got wtfpwned.
MrRookie	Posted - 2004.11.22 09:58:00 - [35] I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Now its like this: lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission Where is the challenge between? I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0 _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
MrRookie	Posted - 2004.11.22 09:58:00 - [36] I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Now its like this: lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission Where is the challenge between? I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0 _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
Sternburg Export	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:04:00 - [37] think about this: going in with a crow... Orbiting the whole spawn at 60km and the geddon kills them all. AFAIK a crow is twice as fast as a NPC ceptor so it doesn¦t get webbed. My other thouhgts about level 4 Killmissions: I see dead BS. Many dead BS. Cause it¦s simply impossible to tank the BS Spawns alone. /me thinks on the Level 4 Merc Assasination (important) 3 merc BS, 5 or 6 Cruisers and 5 Ceptors if i remember right. Only god knows how i was able to warp out again. They outdamaged me totally. My shields were gone instantly, and my armor went down very fast. If the Agression system won¦t get nerfed, many ships will go down. It doesn¦t matter how many ppl are with u. If all shoot on u, u r mostly lost. ____________________________ [ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
Sternburg Export	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:04:00 - [38] think about this: going in with a crow... Orbiting the whole spawn at 60km and the geddon kills them all. AFAIK a crow is twice as fast as a NPC ceptor so it doesn¦t get webbed. My other thouhgts about level 4 Killmissions: I see dead BS. Many dead BS. Cause it¦s simply impossible to tank the BS Spawns alone. /me thinks on the Level 4 Merc Assasination (important) 3 merc BS, 5 or 6 Cruisers and 5 Ceptors if i remember right. Only god knows how i was able to warp out again. They outdamaged me totally. My shields were gone instantly, and my armor went down very fast. If the Agression system won¦t get nerfed, many ships will go down. It doesn¦t matter how many ppl are with u. If all shoot on u, u r mostly lost. ____________________________ [ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:37:00 - [39] Edited by: Mitchman on 22/11/2004 11:47:52 Well, since the aggression system is as it is, the only really group effort you can do with these is to have one ship remote armor repair the agent runner's ship.
Mitchman	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:37:00 - [40] Edited by: Mitchman on 22/11/2004 11:47:52 Well, since the aggression system is as it is, the only really group effort you can do with these is to have one ship remote armor repair the agent runner's ship.
MrRookie	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:42:00 - [41] tbh I dont htink its bad is 1 orbit in a ceptor and the another guy kill the npc. They are 2 and have to share the proffit. Ofc they should be able to gank the npcs easily _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
MrRookie	Posted - 2004.11.22 10:42:00 - [42] tbh I dont htink its bad is 1 orbit in a ceptor and the another guy kill the npc. They are 2 and have to share the proffit. Ofc they should be able to gank the npcs easily _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
throbbinnoggin	Posted - 2004.11.22 13:50:00 - [43] Edited by: throbbinnoggin on 22/11/2004 13:57:20 Originally by: MrRookie I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Now its like this: lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission Where is the challenge between? I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0 Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence. At the moment it isn't that lvl4 missions aren't doable solo; they are just a pain and a time sink to do so. I haven't spent alot of time on the shiva server doing missions but I figure I've done at least 20 lvl4 in my Apoc solo; most of which at close range tanked. I also used a long range sniper setup just to see the mechanics involved at playing the long range game. The only 2 missions I had that were difficult to tank up close were a Khanid multi wave in which the 3rd and last consisted of 4 Khanid High Commanders and an assortment of cruiser/frigs (elites?) and an Angel mission consisting of a 500k bs and 11 100/110k cruiser plus 2 frigs (elites?). Both of those I had to warp out and repair cause my tank couldn't keep up until i knocked off more of the spawn. The few I did with a sniper setup, I never was hit. It was just a matter of setting up a second bm so I could warp in at 120k (60k from the 1st), target and kill. If the group aggro'd on me I just kept myself oriented to a warpable object in the opposite direction, starting moving towards it, made another bm and warped out when they got too close...warp back in at new bm, target, kill ad nauseum. I don't want to see a nerf because I can't manage these missions. As stated above, I can. As a matter of fact I'm not asking for a nerf at all. Just an adjustment of parameters and the introduction/enabling of lvl5 agents to give group missions. In fact make the lvl5 group missions tougher than lvl4's are now so you really have to get a good group going. It's just that I have never heard a statement given in regards to the intended difficulty of lvl5. Also currently we're dealing with more of a time sink than difficulty in relation to spawn size. A shed load of npc inty/frig/cruiser spawn doesn't represent a challenge. Just a royal pain. Especially when dealing with multi wave missions where the bonus time limit is 45 minutes? So CCP please consider the following parameters when designing missions: Lvl1 = tier 2 frig Lvl2 = tier 3 frig Lvl3 = cruiser Lvl4 = bs Lvl5 = group only (if you want to survive) Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. 'Abraham Lincoln'
throbbinnoggin	Posted - 2004.11.22 13:50:00 - [44] Edited by: throbbinnoggin on 22/11/2004 13:57:20 Originally by: MrRookie I just dont understand what lvl 5 agents are for if lvl 4 missions is this hard. Its gonna be 10 BS 50 cruisers and 100 frigs? Now its like this: lvl 1: a couple of wimpy frigs lvl 2: a couple of wimpy frigs + 1 extra lvl 3: a cruiser and some frigs lvl 4: hordes of BSs hordes cruisers millions of frigs :p lvl 5: say no more. Need an alliance to do the mission Where is the challenge between? I think current lvl agents should be lvl 5 and lvl 4 should be more like solo hunting in 0.0 Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence. At the moment it isn't that lvl4 missions aren't doable solo; they are just a pain and a time sink to do so. I haven't spent alot of time on the shiva server doing missions but I figure I've done at least 20 lvl4 in my Apoc solo; most of which at close range tanked. I also used a long range sniper setup just to see the mechanics involved at playing the long range game. The only 2 missions I had that were difficult to tank up close were a Khanid multi wave in which the 3rd and last consisted of 4 Khanid High Commanders and an assortment of cruiser/frigs (elites?) and an Angel mission consisting of a 500k bs and 11 100/110k cruiser plus 2 frigs (elites?). Both of those I had to warp out and repair cause my tank couldn't keep up until i knocked off more of the spawn. The few I did with a sniper setup, I never was hit. It was just a matter of setting up a second bm so I could warp in at 120k (60k from the 1st), target and kill. If the group aggro'd on me I just kept myself oriented to a warpable object in the opposite direction, starting moving towards it, made another bm and warped out when they got too close...warp back in at new bm, target, kill ad nauseum. I don't want to see a nerf because I can't manage these missions. As stated above, I can. As a matter of fact I'm not asking for a nerf at all. Just an adjustment of parameters and the introduction/enabling of lvl5 agents to give group missions. In fact make the lvl5 group missions tougher than lvl4's are now so you really have to get a good group going. It's just that I have never heard a statement given in regards to the intended difficulty of lvl5. Also currently we're dealing with more of a time sink than difficulty in relation to spawn size. A shed load of npc inty/frig/cruiser spawn doesn't represent a challenge. Just a royal pain. Especially when dealing with multi wave missions where the bonus time limit is 45 minutes? So CCP please consider the following parameters when designing missions: Lvl1 = tier 2 frig Lvl2 = tier 3 frig Lvl3 = cruiser Lvl4 = bs Lvl5 = group only (if you want to survive) Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. 'Abraham Lincoln'
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.22 14:05:00 - [45] Originally by: throbbinnoggin Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence. I see where you're comming from, but i do believe there are many lower bounty ships in those mission exactly to make them a time sink. I mean if it was just for my isk gain, i'd want all 0.0 spawns to be BS only spawns, with upto 4 bs.... but you know i am not getting that, because the isk/time would be insane. Just like lvl4 missions with only 3x bs + 4x cruiser would be an insane isk/time thing. So to the point lvl4 mission might be designed to be doable inside bonus time as group. The extra ships are there to let you waste time. Basically you'll have to work around the low bounty npc's to get to the high bounty npcs. And bounty income as it is, is high enough atm.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.11.22 14:05:00 - [46] Originally by: throbbinnoggin Agreed...please note that it is not a nerf I am after. What I would like to see is the introduction of lvl 5 agents whose sole purpose and difficulty is for "groups" only. What I would like to see is lvl4 missions designed around a solo BS parameter while relegating lvl5 agents to be only possible or at least reasonable if done in groups. What I would like to see in lvl4 is a spawn whose "difficulty" isn't totally number related. Rather smaller number of higher bounty ships to the tune of 0.0 belts. Challenge wise I wouldn't mind seeing npc AI tweaked a little either w/ a corresponding rise in bounty relating to higher intelligence. I see where you're comming from, but i do believe there are many lower bounty ships in those mission exactly to make them a time sink. I mean if it was just for my isk gain, i'd want all 0.0 spawns to be BS only spawns, with upto 4 bs.... but you know i am not getting that, because the isk/time would be insane. Just like lvl4 missions with only 3x bs + 4x cruiser would be an insane isk/time thing. So to the point lvl4 mission might be designed to be doable inside bonus time as group. The extra ships are there to let you waste time. Basically you'll have to work around the low bounty npc's to get to the high bounty npcs. And bounty income as it is, is high enough atm.
Barth3zzzNL	Posted - 2004.11.23 08:51:00 - [47] They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Barth3zzzNL	Posted - 2004.11.23 08:51:00 - [48] They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Clericuzio	Posted - 2004.11.26 15:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Barth3zzzNL They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across? --------------------------------------------- 2004.12.08 16:17:56 combat Your AFK at belt stupidity perfectly strikes your wallet wrecking for 10.43 million isk.
Clericuzio	Posted - 2004.11.26 15:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Barth3zzzNL They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across? --------------------------------------------- 2004.12.08 16:17:56 combat Your AFK at belt stupidity perfectly strikes your wallet wrecking for 10.43 million isk.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2004.11.26 17:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Clericuzio Originally by: Barth3zzzNL They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across? IVe only seen Frigs and Cruisers so far, they spawn with 4 cruisers and 5 Frigates i believe. I managed to pop the Frigates in a Caracal at long range but the Cruisers where wtfpwning me quite a bit. I had to get a Dominix and Tank em while my drones killed them. I hope i never get this mission again though, you lose to much sec status killing them. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2004.11.26 17:54:00 - [52] Originally by: Clericuzio Originally by: Barth3zzzNL They added Kill Concord missions for Pirate Agents You lose a lot of sec status killing those Seriously? how tough are they? what types of concord ship do you come across? IVe only seen Frigs and Cruisers so far, they spawn with 4 cruisers and 5 Frigates i believe. I managed to pop the Frigates in a Caracal at long range but the Cruisers where wtfpwning me quite a bit. I had to get a Dominix and Tank em while my drones killed them. I hope i never get this mission again though, you lose to much sec status killing them. --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Petr Sorokin	Posted - 2004.11.27 00:12:00 - [53] The deadspace missions are the ones that will cause problems because of the way you warp into them. Since you can't make a BM to warp in further away that works you always get dropped right into the enemy if you have to warp out. Did the Deadspace Kidnapped Daughter mission yesterday , when you warp in the first time there are what looks to be 3 or 4 groups of enemies at 80-120km away. You can move forward a bit and start engaging the first group who now rush at you (with their working MWDs.. damm npc cheaters ). So far so good and if you can kill that first wave without having to warp out then you can repeat. If however you warp out and come back, when you return you are 15km from then entire spawn of 30+ ships including frigs with scramblers and webbers and you are pretty much done for. Similarly did a L4 blockade mission and the first wave was 6x100k cruisers so np for a BS but when you kill those I had 3x500k BS and 3x100k cruisers spawn 4km from me. Just dropping huge spawns instantly onto a single ship at basically zero range doesn't really give you many options. The 3rd wave had 750k ravens spawning on top of me also. Now I haven't lost a ship yet so they are doable, but the combo of no MWD, no ability to BM to arrive at a good range for your setup, the NPCs using MWDs and of course being hugely outnumbered all serve to make these tricky. ;) Why do the new waves have to spawn RIGHT on top of you ? Couldn't they just as easily arrive at a random distance away ? Is it really nessescary to let NPCs use MWDs while players can't ? That just guarantees that you have no option but to conceed that you are going to get swarmed at close range ? Have to fix the warp into deadspace issue, doesn't really matter what your setup is if the warp in BM drops you 15km from 30-50 ships then you are going to die.
Petr Sorokin	Posted - 2004.11.27 00:12:00 - [54] The deadspace missions are the ones that will cause problems because of the way you warp into them. Since you can't make a BM to warp in further away that works you always get dropped right into the enemy if you have to warp out. Did the Deadspace Kidnapped Daughter mission yesterday , when you warp in the first time there are what looks to be 3 or 4 groups of enemies at 80-120km away. You can move forward a bit and start engaging the first group who now rush at you (with their working MWDs.. damm npc cheaters ). So far so good and if you can kill that first wave without having to warp out then you can repeat. If however you warp out and come back, when you return you are 15km from then entire spawn of 30+ ships including frigs with scramblers and webbers and you are pretty much done for. Similarly did a L4 blockade mission and the first wave was 6x100k cruisers so np for a BS but when you kill those I had 3x500k BS and 3x100k cruisers spawn 4km from me. Just dropping huge spawns instantly onto a single ship at basically zero range doesn't really give you many options. The 3rd wave had 750k ravens spawning on top of me also. Now I haven't lost a ship yet so they are doable, but the combo of no MWD, no ability to BM to arrive at a good range for your setup, the NPCs using MWDs and of course being hugely outnumbered all serve to make these tricky. ;) Why do the new waves have to spawn RIGHT on top of you ? Couldn't they just as easily arrive at a random distance away ? Is it really nessescary to let NPCs use MWDs while players can't ? That just guarantees that you have no option but to conceed that you are going to get swarmed at close range ? Have to fix the warp into deadspace issue, doesn't really matter what your setup is if the warp in BM drops you 15km from 30-50 ships then you are going to die.
Petr Sorokin	Posted - 2004.11.27 01:29:00 - [55] So not much later, I did lose first BS to a L4 mission. Warped in to mission BM, was within 9k of the enemy who both scrambled and webbed me. BS down in under 30 seconds, hell it takes 11 seconds to even lock a frigate and to start deploying drones. There is hard, and then there is silly. You have to be able to arrive further from the spawn than 9k. Or spread the enemy out more. Buy you can't just have them all on top of the warp in spot.
Petr Sorokin	Posted - 2004.11.27 01:29:00 - [56] So not much later, I did lose first BS to a L4 mission. Warped in to mission BM, was within 9k of the enemy who both scrambled and webbed me. BS down in under 30 seconds, hell it takes 11 seconds to even lock a frigate and to start deploying drones. There is hard, and then there is silly. You have to be able to arrive further from the spawn than 9k. Or spread the enemy out more. Buy you can't just have them all on top of the warp in spot.
Hematic	Posted - 2004.11.27 02:12:00 - [57] That's the whole thing. It's the bugs not the features that are problem. We tried this mission today and lost. The first guys warped in at 60k and he was good 80k from the nearest NPC perfect. So he says warp in. The second Apoc warps in and shoots 60k in front of the first guy, putting him only 24k from the nearest NPC. The NPCs all came to life and had the apoc warped and webbed in the blink of an eye. 88 seconds later the apoc was dead. The main reason is because the scourge missles were doing base 750 damage and they're coming fast. Anyway, I'm hoping that that damage is a bug and the warp in problem is a bug so that our apoc pilot might get his ship back.
Hematic	Posted - 2004.11.27 02:12:00 - [58] That's the whole thing. It's the bugs not the features that are problem. We tried this mission today and lost. The first guys warped in at 60k and he was good 80k from the nearest NPC perfect. So he says warp in. The second Apoc warps in and shoots 60k in front of the first guy, putting him only 24k from the nearest NPC. The NPCs all came to life and had the apoc warped and webbed in the blink of an eye. 88 seconds later the apoc was dead. The main reason is because the scourge missles were doing base 750 damage and they're coming fast. Anyway, I'm hoping that that damage is a bug and the warp in problem is a bug so that our apoc pilot might get his ship back.

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