EVE Search - The Legion still sucks. It really, really sucks.

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Ships and Modules

The Legion still sucks. It really, really sucks.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.10 22:04:00 - [1] The reasons for why the Legion sucks, are... well, legion. - The laser configuration is undergunned and inflexible. Barely higher damage output than a Zealot or even tech 1 BC. Needs 7th turret. - The missile configuration doesn't have enough bonuses. Damage + RoF is insufficient, needs buff to explosion velocity or something. - Lack of range bonus on nos/neut configuration. - Hahahaha re: drone configuration. Popular opinion has it that the Legion is the worst of the T3 ships. I'm sure a handful will disagree, but who cares. Comparing the Legion's damage output to that of a Proteus is a telling indicator - comparing the absolutely boring and stupid bonuses of the Legion to say, the Loki's webs, or the Proteus' scram bonus is another. Pls buff this ship until it can cut it as something other than a bubble-proof stealth hauler.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.10 22:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Comparing the Legion's damage output to that of a Proteus is a telling indicator Because a Legion should be able to do Proteus damage from outside web/scram range? I agree that the Legion could use a boost but to cry about its damage because a Proteus does more is wrong. The Proteus SHOULD be hands down the best damage dealer because it risks a hell of a lot more than the rest of the T3 ships by having to get right on top of them.
Hemp Invader Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2010.01.10 22:29:00 - [3] Legion is great, you just don't know how to fit it right. Beeing a proteus pilot i can say for sure that every single time i engage something i risk 2.5 billions because i don't know if the guy has backup and if he has or doesn't have a scram to keep me till his buddies come(wh pvp ftw). If you can stay at 20km away in a legion...you shouldn't get the same dps as the proteus. HTFU.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 01:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2010 01:16:20 Lmao. Two guys without a clue above me. What Istvaan said: legion sucks damage wise. And its not "proteus should do more damage" coz it already does. Problem is: proteus deals almost 2x the damage (1,5x with tank) of legion with similiar fit. So does tengu (1,5x easily). And both still have good tank while doing so. Wheras legion has no saving grace. its slow, its DPS is low its EHP is comparable to prot. So yeah - it badly needs +1 turret setup on turret version. Missile version is totally inferior to tengu. Not only you cant put 3-4 BCU (tengu can) but even if you have same number of damage mods tengus accelerated ejection bay not only has 3 bonuses compared to HAM legion 2 but out of those the damage bonuses ALONE (excluding velocity) make it already better than legion. Fix? Boost 5% rof to 7,5% rof. Will have similiar damage to tengu but with various damage types (tho only to HAMs wheras tengu has rof bonus to all launcher types). Plus it will still have less lows for damage mods. Nosf/neut is totally useless. Yeap - lack of range, same issue as with pilgrim. And its 10% efficiency/level compared to 20% on recon = totally useless. It would be MUCH better off with even 10% range. Drones - whats the point when curse can do it better? :X Tho i was still hoping for 5th subsystem somewhere last year but i guess t3 is just a toy for one expansion. Oyea and one more thing (from my issues): slot layout. Proteus gets hislots/3-4mids/lowslots with good ratio. Legion always goes towards max hislots and less lows than prot (but more mids). Its stupid when you look at possible configs of ships and the way t2 counterparts fight. You dont get 2 utility hislots or 5 lows on zealot for a reason. Even 5 lows on sac is considered not enough (it would be better off with 3/6 instead of 4/5 mid/low combo). Yet legion loses on lows. EDIT: and to the guy above. I can put 5bil on my drake too and whine its too weak but it doesnt mean i have to. Most t3 ships can fit in 500mil already (and if you play buy orders they can drop under 400m easily).
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.11 01:50:00 - [5] i was looking on a ham legion as 2nd t3 cruiser next to my ham tengu. but the dps compared to the tengu was crap. Originally by: Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Subsystem Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Assault missile launcher rate of fire per level 10% bonus to heavy missile and heavy assault missile velocity per level Originally by: Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Subsystem Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to heavy assault missile damage per level 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level question that raised while thinking about legion fittings why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? given the tengu already has a range advantage i would bump both bonuses to 7.5 maybe 10% per level. then the legion would be facemelting when it gets into range, while a tengu could kite the legion (both ham fitted) The ham tengu is lots of fun, so i dont really understand why the ham legion comes gimped out of the factory. also for the laser subsystem it seems a bit low on dmg. you can get a ham tengu to like 730 dps with not much lower range than a heavy pulse zealot, but the dmg difference seems to be too big. and the tank with 2-3 heat sinks isnt any spectacular either.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 01:56:00 - [6] You can get more DPS out of heavy missile tengu than out of laser legion tbh. And yeah - thats the issue with missile setup i was talking about. 10% would make it overpowered but 7,5% rof (on par with tengu) would just bring it in line. Especially when most tengu setups can fit 3bcu easily and HAM legion needs to stick to max 2 most of the time.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.01.11 02:21:00 - [7] Legion's covert reconfig needs a damage bonus instead of a LOL cap bonus.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.11 02:23:00 - [8] It's funny how 90% of the posts about the Legion on these forums are about how much it sucks - yet whenever I post a boost thread about it, people come crawling out of the woodwork to tell me that I suck at fitting. Except the problem is, when I apply that same fitting suckage to the Proteus or Tengu, both of which I fly, I come up with ships that are FAR FAR BETTER than the Legion. Look guys. I know you want to prove how badass you are at PVP, and how much I suck at PVP. But all I'm trying to do is slightly boost an anemic ship. If you're so awesome at flying Legions, wouldn't you be happier if they got beefed up?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.01.11 03:17:00 - [9] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 11/01/2010 03:17:27 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 11/01/2010 02:31:26 It's funny how 90% of the posts about the Legion on these forums are about how much it sucks - yet whenever I post a boost thread about it, people come crawling out of the woodwork to tell me that I suck at fitting. Except the problem is, when I apply that same fitting suckage to the Proteus or Tengu, both of which I fly, I come up with ships that are FAR FAR BETTER than the Legion. Look guys. I know you want to prove how badass you are at PVP, and how much I suck at PVP. But all I'm trying to do is slightly boost an anemic ship. If you're so awesome at flying Legions, wouldn't you be happier if they got beefed up? Anyway, here's a list of fixes I'd like to see: Liquid crystal magnifiers - One more turret. The Legion model has an extra un-used turret hardpoint in this configuration, so adding it would be elementary. Alternately, the engineering subsystem that currently gives +1 turret could be boosted to give +2 instead. This thing's meant to be a gunboat, let's let it actually outgun a Harbinger. Energy parasitic thing - 20% per level range bonus to nos/neut. Sensor strength increased to 18 or so. Covert offensive module - Replace turret cap use bonus with dmg bonus. Drone synthesis projector - Drone damage bonus increased to 12.5/15%. It can only field a full wing of mediums to the Proteus' heavies, they might as well get a bit of a buff. Finally, an aesthetic change: The "Baby Avatar" subsystem is totally wasted on the crappy probing sub. I recommend switching its model with the dissolution sequencer, because it makes my Legion look like a stupid snowmobile. I agree with you 100% Istvaan. Every single suggestion you have put forth is spot on. I'd complain about it more but any time I say anything these days everyone bites my head off because they're simply too stupid to think outside their little view of Eve. You're completely right that the Legion is sub-par. I fly all four T3 and have used the Legion the most, simply because it fills a small niche for what I do, but it needs a lot of improvement to compete with the other T3 ships. EDIT: I love the disso nose! Don't change it! >:( -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.01.11 07:09:00 - [10] Originally by: darius mclever why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? Why does the legion have damage bonus to all damage types?

Hemp Invader Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2010.01.11 07:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: darius mclever why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? Why does the legion have damage bonus to all damage types? This.
Miss Xerox	Posted - 2010.01.11 08:59:00 - [12] If Istvaan Shogaatsu wants something it is the responsibility of all pilots in Eve to prevent it happening... regardless if the ship blows or not.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.11 09:02:00 - [13] I fly all the T3 ships. I also keep backup subsystems for just about any occasion and I can say the Legion is by far the least flexible. I have a pretty nasty sniper hac fit for mine but that's really all it seems to do well. Anything else one of the others does much much better.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.11 09:05:00 - [14] I don't mind if the Legion does the same amount of damage like the Proteus, but as long as it does 0 outside of web/scram range like the Proteus. That cool?
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 09:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: darius mclever why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? Why does the legion have damage bonus to all damage types? Maybe because it: 1. lacks range 2. is limited to HAMs (wheras tengu bonus works with hams, heavies and assault launchers)? And fun fact mr. wise guy. Tengu outdamages (or just gets similiar damage) with "all damage types" compared to legion even having only kinetic damage bonus.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.11 10:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Miss Xerox If Istvaan Shogaatsu wants something it is the responsibility of all pilots in Eve to prevent it happening... regardless if the ship blows or not. Iunno..at least he stirs things up nicely
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2010.01.11 10:28:00 - [17] As a person who trained all legion skills up to lvl5 (Even that Cruiser skill to lvl5 until I realised it was a BAD mistake) I have one thing to say: I agree with this scumbag. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.11 10:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: darius mclever why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? Why does the legion have damage bonus to all damage types? even when the legion can pick all dmg types. for the lols we use 3 CN BCS + t2 launcher on both setups. missile -> legion -> tengu torrent rage -> 598 dps -> 558 dps terror rage -> 598 dps -> 698 dps now: who would fit 3 BCS on an armor tanked ship? missile -> legion 2 bcs -> legion 1 bcs torrent rage -> 540 dps -> 455 dps so now tell me why the tengu has more range, can fit a nice 1600 dps tank (before implants and boosters). so if you get a decent tank on your legion, your dps is very low compared to the tengu.
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.01.11 11:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Legion's covert reconfig needs a damage bonus instead of a LOL cap bonus. -------------------------
Aerin Cloudfayr the evil ones	Posted - 2010.01.11 11:16:00 - [20] Istvaan is on the right path. /signed I'd like to see my legion gain a bit of survivability out of this. So far (test server), they're too easy to kill, because their faults are just way too similar to a Harbingers'. 1) Neut/tracking disrupt(Both are just as deadly) 2) Keep outside of 10km 3) F1-F8. Instant Legion kill.

Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.11 11:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr Istvaan is on the right path. /signed I'd like to see my legion gain a bit of survivability out of this. So far (test server), they're too easy to kill, because their faults are just way too similar to a Harbingers'. 1) Neut/tracking disrupt(Both are just as deadly) 2) Keep outside of 10km 3) F1-F8. Instant Legion kill. Wow. Same 3 things kill a Proteus as well. Time to boost the Proteus as well?
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 12:20:00 - [22] Marlona are you trolling or are you just stupid? And another question: have you ever flown legion?
Hemp Invader Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2010.01.11 13:15:00 - [23] Stop it now...it's just silly. You want to go all in, get a proteus. After all it's a rank 1 skill and i assume you have gunery skills, it should take you like a month for perfect proteus skills. So if you think the proteus is so great, train a month and stop whining already. I'm actually training for a legion now.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.11 13:39:00 - [24] I did mate. I'm quite pleased with it. It's versatile and hilariously lethal. The Legion is less so.
0racle Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers	Posted - 2010.01.11 14:14:00 - [25] The Legion is a Cruiser Drake with Lasers.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.11 14:27:00 - [26] The problem with legion is, that its matched or outdone in almost every way by the zealot. Same way but in smaller degree the loki is completely outmatched by vagabond and sleipnir. T3 ships bonuses clearly were made on the rush. Some CCP focused more. Most times the bonuses are smaller than the dedicated t2 ships of same bonus. Sometimes not. Example Tengu that has a LARGER shield boost bonus than sleipnir. WTF? Then why the loki has worse web bonus than rapier? Is slower than vaga, barely matches munin as sniper... ? Why the legion barely matches zealot and it outclassed by a pilgrim? Seems a lot of DOUBLE standard on how the T3 ships should compare to the t2 ones. Btw having Bellum exageratum to agree with this request basically makes it moot and autommatically hated and disagrred by 9 in 10 forum members and very likely CCP.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.11 15:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Marlona are you trolling or are you just stupid? And another question: have you ever flown legion? I own 3 Proteus, 1 Tengu, 1 Loki and 2 Legions. Not all on the same character of course but I have and use all 4 T3 Cruisers. Thanks for asking. Personally I don't like how the Legion has this split weapon HAM/Lazor garbage. Should the subsystems of the Legion be looked at? Sure. Should the Legion get another turret slot? Maybe. Should the Legion be as affective as the Proteus but not risk as much by safely being out of web/scram range? **** NO!
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 15:27:00 - [28] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2010 15:36:26 Originally by: Seishi Maru Btw having Bellum exageratum to agree with this request basically makes it moot and autommatically hated and disagrred by 9 in 10 forum members and very likely CCP. Funnily enough when i saw him post i already thought "o crap so no chance for legion fix in next 15 years" :D And rest of the post? CCP wanted to make t3 jack of all trades masters of none. Thats why you get only half-assed bonuses as compared to full ones from recons. But then they went all over the board in other place and made full-blown tank bonuses (be it rep amount, resists or armor/shield amount) yet put damage bonuses at random. Plus if you really want to make some setups you soon find out that supposed 4x4x4x4x4 possible subsystem setups end up being 3-5 that work and rest being bad or hilariously bad. Also when you look at the larger picture you can see that CCP had no clue what way to go with each t3 ship. Proteus went for minimalistic HIslots (just to fit guns), minimalistic mids (most setups go with 3) and max lows. Setups like those were typical amarr domain (except khanids) where gallente usually had a bit more hislots (4-5 dependant if a ship was gun or drone boat). Amarr? max hislots (even if it means utility ones), 4+ mids, mediciore lows which pretty much sucks for a ship that uses lowslots both for tank and damage mods. And there we have caldari with tengu which sometimes has more mids+lows combined than legion (my last pvp setup goes with 6/5 mids/lows wheras most legion pvp setups end up being 4/6). I dunno about loki, never flown it and not rly keen on trying it out. Also: its annoying that if you want to go for max amount of turrents/launchers you have only one way of fitting ship. For example tengu needs to go accelerated ejection bay+capacitor something (forgot which one ;p), legion needs to go liquid (or assault) + power grid subsystem. Why cant i chose DPS setup that doesnt give me oodles of grid on legion. And vice-versa why cant i chose other engineering system than capacitor one if i want 6 launchers? This is a reason why the lego t3 fails to some degree: supposedly you can mix and match but then you see that most parts wont fit in the end. Quote: Personally I don't like how the Legion has this split weapon HAM/Lazor garbage. Should the subsystems of the Legion be looked at? Sure. Should the Legion get another turret slot? Maybe. Should the Legion be as affective as the Proteus but not risk as much by safely being out of web/scram range? ** NO! Then you totally missed what was the point in this thread. Guess as soon as you see legion-proteus comparison you ented some poasting rage mode. Hint: there is no other way to compare ships which have all other stats similiar except by their damage values. And like posted before: legion damage is . Its so ** that heavy missile tengu outdamages pulse laser legion. EDIT: actually even FUNNIER fact. Railgun (!!) proteus almost outdamages heavy pulse legion. Hybrid armature + 2x magstab + 5x hammer = 531dps. 6 turret legion + 2x sink = 550dps. Range on legion is 11+6. Range on proteus 18+23. Nerf proteus tbh.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.11 15:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire Marlona are you trolling or are you just stupid? And another question: have you ever flown legion? I own 3 Proteus, 1 Tengu, 1 Loki and 2 Legions. Not all on the same character of course but I have and use all 4 T3 Cruisers. Thanks for asking. Personally I don't like how the Legion has this split weapon HAM/Lazor garbage. Should the subsystems of the Legion be looked at? Sure. Should the Legion get another turret slot? Maybe. Should the Legion be as affective as the Proteus but not risk as much by safely being out of web/scram range? **** NO! We're not asking it to, dude. Adding a 7th turret wouldn't bring it anywhere near the DPS of a Proteus - it'd merely level it off at around 800 max with AN MF pulses, and much less for scorch. Thing is, the Legion generally lacks lowslots to cram with heatsinks.
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.11 15:42:00 - [30] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/01/2010 15:47:30 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Adding a 7th turret wouldn't bring it anywhere near the DPS of a Proteus it'd merely level it off at around 800 max with AN MF pulses quoting for lulz. Quote: Thing is, the Legion generally lacks lowslots to cram with heatsinks. So have dissolution seq giv +1 low instead of +1 mid, like it should. This alone would improve the legion significantly and TBH I don't get why the most lowslot heavy race in the game is the one race that disso seq gives an extra mid instead of a low. I guess they wanted to "mix it up". ALL of the T3 have subs that are poorly balanced/designed. The legion just happens to not have any combinations that shine and so this is much more glaring. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.11 16:10:00 - [31] Personally i liked a lot MORE the first iteration of T3 in test server. Where the variations on slow layouts and numbers of slots was MUCH larger. As things are now ccp got several subsystems that have basically 1 single choice when you select another subsystem Y. Just because slot layouts are too tight and for example if you choose a shield tank bonus and a web bonus you MUST select the other modules on the maximum mid slots possible to just have enough for a minimal tank and webs.
Soliscout	Posted - 2010.01.11 21:43:00 - [32] wtf is protus ?
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.11 23:22:00 - [33] Originally by: Soliscout wtf is protus ? a sex move. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Empire Dweller Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.01.11 23:25:00 - [34] If everyones going to fall over themselves saying the tengus the greatest- at least point out the ridiculously low amount of effective hit points it has. Tengus great- for pve. For pvp its nothing special.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.11 23:49:00 - [35] My Tengu hits 200k+ with tackle gear. I think that's decent.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.11 23:51:00 - [36] 140k here (up to 160k overheated) on pure t2 setup (6 midslot layout)... More than most battleships out there and better for RR. I wouldnt say its bad.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.12 06:51:00 - [37] Edited by: darius mclever on 12/01/2010 06:53:31 254k EHP on my probing tengu. 320k EHP with overload. forgot to mention: faction version 326k EHP without overload 445k EHP with overload
Obsidian Hawk Free Galactic Enterprises FREGE	Posted - 2010.01.12 07:16:00 - [38] I need to weigh in as i am both a proteus and legion pilot. A lot of balancing issues I see is when it comes to pve, the proteus has several subsystems that allow you to fit drones while the legion only has 1, giving it a disadvantage to fighting small ships, so you have either sac a high slot to either put on a pulse or a smalle missile launcher to combat that. Other than that the legion is a great ship. I mean a 50% bonus to optimal range, put in some amarr navy multis and you got one really hard hitting ship. The natural armor tank is great also. my fitt for pve/pvp Elec - TTN prop - fuel catalyst - sucker goes fast with a t2 ab def - adaptive augmentor eng - power core multi - gives the hardpoints i need. off - liquid crystal mags. Summary - the offensive sub should have a 25m drone bay, and the drone reconfiguration should be upped a little bit more to be at least semi on par with a myrmidon or ishtar.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.12 07:42:00 - [39] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk I need to weigh in as i am both a proteus and legion pilot. A lot of balancing issues I see is when it comes to pve, the proteus has several subsystems that allow you to fit drones while the legion only has 1, giving it a disadvantage to fighting small ships, so you have either sac a high slot to either put on a pulse or a smalle missile launcher to combat that. Other than that the legion is a great ship. I mean a 50% bonus to optimal range, put in some amarr navy multis and you got one really hard hitting ship. The natural armor tank is great also. my fitt for pve/pvp Elec - TTN prop - fuel catalyst - sucker goes fast with a t2 ab def - adaptive augmentor eng - power core multi - gives the hardpoints i need. off - liquid crystal mags. Summary - the offensive sub should have a 25m drone bay, and the drone reconfiguration should be upped a little bit more to be at least semi on par with a myrmidon or ishtar. So what are we talking if it was givin another turret hardpoint instead of drone bay like what was suggested earlier in this thread? DPS wise and stuff.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.12 08:52:00 - [40] My proteus has around 800k EHP. That being said I use it primarily as a bait ship and cyno killer. My legion I use as a sniper hac in fleet engagements and it does a fantastic job, tracking better, shooting farther, hitting harder, and with way more HP than a sniper zealot. The tengu is a suped up cov ops that can probe like a cov ops and tackle like a drake. The loki I have setup as a mix of a vagabond and a rapier. Overall I am fairly happy with t3. If any of them do need a looking at though it's the legion. At the very least I would greatly like to see the nuet range on the parisitic complex extended.

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.12 10:15:00 - [41] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources My proteus has around 800k EHP. That being said I use it primarily as a bait ship and cyno killer. My legion I use as a sniper hac in fleet engagements and it does a fantastic job, tracking better, shooting farther, hitting harder, and with way more HP than a sniper zealot. The tengu is a suped up cov ops that can probe like a cov ops and tackle like a drake. The loki I have setup as a mix of a vagabond and a rapier. Overall I am fairly happy with t3. If any of them do need a looking at though it's the legion. At the very least I would greatly like to see the nuet range on the parisitic complex extended. problem is exaclty that.. T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role (not considerign the non probeable gang bonuses ship that is just non predicted gameplay :P )
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.12 10:35:00 - [42] The legion needs it subsystems looked at and the loki just needs an extra mid slot or two.
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.12 11:51:00 - [43] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 11:53:57 Originally by: Seishi Maru T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role tbh, the proteus also really only has 1 role, as an ultra deimos (which it does quite well). The only real variation is whether you go ultra tank (like ed) or ultra gank. The ishtar-ish drone user modules are quite lackluster. I guess the covops is fairly usable too, but the tengu is just so much better at this (as it can stay at range) that I don't even really consider it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Iroko Kamba	Posted - 2010.01.12 12:33:00 - [44] I always thought the Loki has a worse damage output than a Legion? And Proteus - it does more damage. But only ultra-close-range, which contains always all or nothing situations in pvp.
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.12 12:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 11:53:57 Originally by: Seishi Maru T3 are supposed to cover SEVERAL roles dependign on configuration. While legion and oto elsser extent the loki have only 1 role tbh, the proteus also really only has 1 role, as an ultra deimos (which it does quite well). The only real variation is whether you go ultra tank (like ed) or ultra gank. The ishtar-ish drone user modules are quite lackluster. I guess the covops is fairly usable too, but the tengu is just so much better at this (as it can stay at range) that I don't even really consider it. Its far better than the tengu if you are using it for tackling something on the edge of shields of a hostile pos or to get the initial tackler as you jump in a gang. Mine is cov ops fit.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2010.01.12 13:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Finally, an aesthetic change: The "Baby Avatar" subsystem is totally wasted on the crappy probing sub. I recommend switching its model with the dissolution sequencer, because it makes my Legion look like a stupid snowmobile. Don't you touch the "Baby Avatar" sub, it makes my salvage legion look fantastic.
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.12 13:35:00 - [47] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Its far better than the tengu if you are using it for tackling something on the edge of shields of a hostile pos or to get the initial tackler as you jump in a gang. Mine is cov ops fit. The first is an extremely specialized use (one which a dual web loki might be better for, anyways) and what does a cov ops cloak have to do with jumping through and getting an initial tackle? Maybe I'm just not understanding you on the second one, this is way too early for me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.12 14:06:00 - [48] Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors, a good faction web, and a cov ops cloak let you dictate engagement range and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle. Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ****.
Letifer Deus Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.12 14:59:00 - [49] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 14:59:32 Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors I don't think 20km is more than any disruptor. Quote: and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle. Assuming that by "disengage" you mean cloak and warp, sure. Quote: ...let you dictate engagement range.. On a single target, yes up to ~18-20km. Quote: Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ***. ok so you're warping into sht. What is a cloak going to do for you here? I realize now I/we are compeltely derailing this thread so I'm going to stop now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
raukosen	Posted - 2010.01.12 17:09:00 - [50] [Legion, lowsec] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Good tank, decent damage

EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.12 17:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 12/01/2010 14:59:32 Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Scrambler that goes farther than most disruptors I don't think 20km is more than any disruptor. Quote: and lets you disengage if it's more than you or your specific group can handle. Assuming that by "disengage" you mean cloak and warp, sure. Quote: ...let you dictate engagement range.. On a single target, yes up to ~18-20km. Quote: Also let's not every time you get the initial tackle are you jumping into ***. ok so you're warping into sht. What is a cloak going to do for you here? I realize now I/we are compeltely derailing this thread so I'm going to stop now. JMmm nice and narrow minded, just the kind of person who should be fitting a ship designed to be flexible and out of the box. A) Nice to know you don't use heat or gang links. B) Yes I do, being able to cloak is a huge asset C) Yup, thats usually what it is because I play smart you see, if I have 5 people in backup and local goes up by 60 then I know to gtfo so I warp and cloak, not having to cycle safes, I can even warp to a bookmark on grid with the gate to watch from complete safety and give intel at the same time. D) Well sometimes you arent in lowsec so you arent simply warping to belts, but are moving towards things that are scattered around the grid and moving at full speed or warping while cloaked can be a massive asset.
Kurenin Amarr	Posted - 2010.01.13 00:43:00 - [52] Hello sirs. It has come to my attention that the Legion, in addition to the other, non Caldari strat cruisers, in fact fellates goats. Unfortunately the Legion is Fellatrix Maximus as it is impossible to do any one task with the ship. It's really really bad. Set it up with turrets and you've got yourself a crap amount of EHP, poor tracking, poor speed, range that suggests you should be outside of scrambling range, but can't maintain that range (so you may as well go closer, then get eaten alive anyway). Set it up as a missile ship and you really may as well just go and refine the ship, the range is awful, it is slow, has crap EHP, does poor damage etc. The drones... The EWAR thingy is awful too. It's like the stupid EWAR frigate. No one really cares enough that you're draining 1 cap every 20 years, nos / neuts aren't really effective unless you're using BS size ones and this has always been the case. In addition to this, they also have poor range, meaning you have to go in close and get chewed up. It's just horrible and I see no reason why you wouldn't just train missiles and get a Tengu instead. It's better than all the others, at almost any range and any role.
Obsidian Hawk Free Galactic Enterprises FREGE	Posted - 2010.01.13 04:36:00 - [53] all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot. I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.13 08:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot. I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis. I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones.
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.01.13 10:55:00 - [55] Originally by: Seishi Maru Personally i liked a lot MORE the first iteration of T3 in test server. Where the variations on slow layouts and numbers of slots was MUCH larger. As things are now ccp got several subsystems that have basically 1 single choice when you select another subsystem Y. Just because slot layouts are too tight and for example if you choose a shield tank bonus and a web bonus you MUST select the other modules on the maximum mid slots possible to just have enough for a minimal tank and webs. Sadly this is the core of the problem. When T3 was on sisi originally there was huge variation, now as other have already said, you're locked into 5-10 practical configurations with the ships. This ultimately defeats the point of having customisable ships. That is of course, before the inferiority of the ewar subs is taken into account. Then there's the issue of layout themselves. The legion, in any config without the offensive sub, is all mid slots - not lows which amarr actually use. Similarly the Proteus is virtually all lowslots instead of the balanced low/mid layout other gal ships enjoy - it's resulting in them being plated rather than actively tanked while amarr, and plated armour tankers, lack the mids to fit a decent tank let alone cpr & hs. I personally find it interesting that ppl at ccp thought the ewar subs should remain inferior to the recons, yet the offensive subs deal more damage than hacs. -------------------------
Zarazaa Scarlet Blood	Posted - 2010.01.13 11:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot. I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis. I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones. The only thing that would do is escalate the problem, to major fitting issues, cap issues and so on.. The core problem isn't this subsistem or that subsistem or the likes, but the sad philosphy behind new content every single expansion has added, pre nerf and general uselessness which plagues T3 too... That wouldn't be such an issue if CCP actualy took the time after each expansion to refine and ballance the new added content, but that's not the case, and i don't think much can be done about it.. Regarding the present issue, i think a 7'th turret would be a bad idea for the fact that it creates more problems then it solvs, working with the bonuses and the slot layout of each sub to provide move flexibility would be the right way to go.. on the other hand, a basic dron bay for every single Offensive subsistem(for every T3 cruiser) should be a must imo given the unballanced nature of some game mechanics such as Scrams and Webs combined with the SLOW nature of T3 hulls comparted with most T2 and Pirate/Faction cruisers.. I've seen dual web Loki die to solo assault frigs and ceptors cause if couldn't hit em, i don't care how lame you are as a pilot, that's simply bad design, and untill that is fixed(if ever) every single Offensive sub should get atleast a basic drone bay..
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.13 12:15:00 - [57] Originally by: Zarazaa Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Obsidian Hawk all of the offensive subsystems really need drones of some sort, even if it is 5 light drones that woudl put it up above the zealot. I still like the liquid cooled magnifiers the best, granted it has crap for tracking and you need to put a tracking comp on it, but a 50% bonus to range and damage makes it a hard hitter with Multis. I think an extra turret slot would be more in line instead of all offensive subs getting drones. The only thing that would do is escalate the problem, to major fitting issues, cap issues and so on.. The core problem isn't this subsistem or that subsistem or the likes, but the sad philosphy behind new content every single expansion has added, pre nerf and general uselessness which plagues T3 too... That wouldn't be such an issue if CCP actualy took the time after each expansion to refine and ballance the new added content, but that's not the case, and i don't think much can be done about it.. Regarding the present issue, i think a 7'th turret would be a bad idea for the fact that it creates more problems then it solvs, working with the bonuses and the slot layout of each sub to provide move flexibility would be the right way to go.. on the other hand, a basic dron bay for every single Offensive subsistem(for every T3 cruiser) should be a must imo given the unballanced nature of some game mechanics such as Scrams and Webs combined with the SLOW nature of T3 hulls comparted with most T2 and Pirate/Faction cruisers.. I've seen dual web Loki die to solo assault frigs and ceptors cause if couldn't hit em, i don't care how lame you are as a pilot, that's simply bad design, and untill that is fixed(if ever) every single Offensive sub should get atleast a basic drone bay.. For every T3 offensive subsystem on all races sure. Legion pilots would still whine about it because it is not a boost to them specifically.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.13 12:53:00 - [58] Sometimes people on the internet argue for the sake of arguing.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:10:00 - [59] Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 13:12:12 Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 13:10:17 Hey everyone. I've been following this issue for a long time, every since they nerfed the legion right before T3 ships went live... I see an EASY (and balanced, I hope) solution to this: Liquid Crystal Magnifier subsystem: 12.5% bonus to damage instead of 10% (If you give it another turret, you'll be able to have 9 high slots, 5 from offensive, 1 from engineering, 1 from defensive, and 1 from electronics...SO IF you want it to have 7 turrets, you'll have to change another subystem's high slot addition) Assault Optimization: 3% or 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level (It's Khanid, after all) OR 10% bonus to HAM velocity or Flight Time OR +25m3 for drones (Once again, it's Khanid) Covert Reconfiguration: CHANGE 10% bonus to medium energy turret capacitor use per level TO 10% bonus to medium energy turret damage AND ADD:small drone bay Drone Subsystem ADD +2 turret CHANGE 10% bonus to medium energy turret capacitor use per level TO 10% bonus to medium energy turret damage
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 13:40:00 - [60] Originally by: IceAero Assault Optimization: 3% or 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level (It's Khanid, after all) OR 10% bonus to HAM velocity or Flight Time OR +25m3 for drones (Once again, it's Khanid) Armor resist - nope (would get stupid values if you use defensive resist subsystem). Drones - maybe Velocity and flight time - what for? Just give it 7,5% rof like tengu has and it will be on par with tengu missile system (tengu gets range and choice between HAM and heavy, legion will have HAMs only but with tad more damage on non-kinetic damage types compared to legion). And considering legion fits max 2 BCU and tengu 3-4 it will balance itself out.

IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 15:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: IceAero Assault Optimization: 3% or 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level (It's Khanid, after all) OR 10% bonus to HAM velocity or Flight Time OR +25m3 for drones (Once again, it's Khanid) Armor resist - nope (would get stupid values if you use defensive resist subsystem). Drones - maybe Velocity and flight time - what for? Just give it 7,5% rof like tengu has and it will be on par with tengu missile system (tengu gets range and choice between HAM and heavy, legion will have HAMs only but with tad more damage on non-kinetic damage types compared to legion). And considering legion fits max 2 BCU and tengu 3-4 it will balance itself out. I'm not so sure that it would be 'stupid' values honestly. BASE: 50 / 35 / 62.5 / 80 BASE + 2 EANM: 70.6 / 61.8 / 78 / 88.3 BASE + 2 EANM (w/ proposed 3% bonus): 75 / 67.5 / 81.3 / 90 Adaptive Augmenter: 62.5 / 51.2 / 71.9 / 85 AA + 2 EANM: 78 / 71.4 / 83.5 / 91.2 AA + 2 EANM (w/ 3% proposed bonus): 81.3 / 75.7 / 86 / 92.5 I think it just makes the HAM Legion a slightly tougher nut to crack. The flight time is pretty critical I think, increases the max range from 20km to 30km. I think that's a pretty substantial difference. Just think about warp disruptor range and heavy neut range. I don't agree with the extra missile damage. Only because it's a Khanid innovation, and they have a supposed focus on drones,; I'd rather see the extra damage come from drones than just missiles.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 15:37:00 - [62] I would see missile damage as natural progression from cerb/sacrilege line into tengu/legion. Cerb gets range and kinetic damage (+rof), sacri gets all round damage (but only to hams) + rof. Also fact is: if you add missile range and dont touch DPS - it will still be **ty subsystem. Who will take 500dps subsystem with 30km range when you can take tengu and deal 700dps at same distance? So it will remain no-brainer to pick tengu over ham-legion if you want to go missiles. Or just stick to proteus and my lol-rail prot will outdamage you even at 30km (if you increase range). Quote:** The flight time is pretty critical I think, increases the max range from 20km to 30km It really isnt that important on legion. You have enough speed to get in range and with javelins you cover whole warp disruptor range. Heavy neuts? You will kill battleship before it kills you even with neuts equipped and its not like neuts will turn off your missiles. Ofc that is when you actually have DPS which HAM legion lacks. 500ish DPS you deal is pretty much in "tankable" range of most pvp battleships.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.13 15:49:00 - [63] Edited by: darius mclever on 13/01/2010 15:50:36 Originally by: raukosen [Legion, lowsec] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu Ammatar Navy Medium Nosferatu Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Good tank, decent damage out dpsed, out ranged and out tanked by tengu. congratulations. and after toying around with it in eft, aux nanopumps wouldnt make you so unstable on cap and still give a decent tank.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:00:00 - [64] Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 16:03:51 Edited by: IceAero on 13/01/2010 16:03:05 Originally by: Deva Blackfire I would see missile damage as natural progression from cerb/sacrilege line into tengu/legion. Cerb gets range and kinetic damage (+rof), sacri gets all round damage (but only to hams) + rof. Also fact is: if you add missile range and dont touch DPS - it will still be **ty subsystem. Who will take 500dps subsystem with 30km range when you can take tengu and deal 700dps at same distance? So it will remain no-brainer to pick tengu over ham-legion if you want to go missiles. Or just stick to proteus and my lol-rail prot will outdamage you even at 30km (if you increase range). Quote:** The flight time is pretty critical I think, increases the max range from 20km to 30km It really isnt that important on legion. You have enough speed to get in range and with javelins you cover whole warp disruptor range. Heavy neuts? You will kill battleship before it kills you even with neuts equipped and its not like neuts will turn off your missiles. Ofc that is when you actually have DPS which HAM legion lacks. 500ish DPS you deal is pretty much in "tankable" range of most pvp battleships. Ok, I think you make a pretty good point. 5 light drones is 100 dps though, easily putting the HAM legion into the same DPS numbers as the tengu. Which is ok, because the Tengu gets a range bonus, and the ability to fit HML instead of HAMs. Example (2 BCU) Legion does 382 with 5 launchers Tengu does 367 with 5 launchers Tengu does 459 with 5 launcher and Kinetic missiles Now the issue here is, the Tengu lends itself to easily fitting 2-3 BCUs, while the Legion is only able to fit 1 BCU comfortably, and 2 when some loss of tank. So if you ask me, adding 5 light drones to the Assault Optimization pretty much sets it straight.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:06:00 - [65] and now do the same math with 7.5% ROF bonus on the legion.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:11:00 - [66] Originally by: darius mclever and now do the same math with 7.5% ROF bonus on the legion. There's no reason to, that's the identical bonus to the Tengu. And I'll say it again, I do not think that they should have the same bonus. There should be a variety. Caldari focus on Kinetic Missiles, Khanid focus on HAMs and drones. The bonuses should reflect this, I believe.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:15:00 - [67] Originally by: IceAero Caldari focus on Kinetic Missiles, Khanid focus on HAMs and drones. The bonuses should reflect this, I believe. I think drones = another subsystem (which does exist and is also useless).
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: IceAero Caldari focus on Kinetic Missiles, Khanid focus on HAMs and drones. The bonuses should reflect this, I believe. I think drones = another subsystem (which does exist and is also useless). I think an argument could be make to combine these subsystems, but I don't believe the dev's could think up a new 4th subsystem ;)
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:25:00 - [69] Originally by: IceAero Originally by: darius mclever and now do the same math with 7.5% ROF bonus on the legion. There's no reason to, that's the identical bonus to the Tengu. And I'll say it again, I do not think that they should have the same bonus. There should be a variety. Caldari focus on Kinetic Missiles, Khanid focus on HAMs and drones. The bonuses should reflect this, I believe. well ROF bonus is pretty much independent of the launcher type. as i said earlier. bumping both bonuses from 5% to 7.5% would make the subsystem good. then the legion would be the close range brawler, while the tengu has slightly less dps but extra range. (disclaimer: i am a happy tengu user and mainly caldari+missile specced)
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:42:00 - [70] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 13/01/2010 16:43:29 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: IceAero Originally by: darius mclever and now do the same math with 7.5% ROF bonus on the legion. There's no reason to, that's the identical bonus to the Tengu. And I'll say it again, I do not think that they should have the same bonus. There should be a variety. Caldari focus on Kinetic Missiles, Khanid focus on HAMs and drones. The bonuses should reflect this, I believe. well ROF bonus is pretty much independent of the launcher type. as i said earlier. bumping both bonuses from 5% to 7.5% would make the subsystem good. then the legion would be the close range brawler, while the tengu has slightly less dps but extra range. (disclaimer: i am a happy tengu user and mainly caldari+missile specced) Bumping both would get too OP tbh, especially when tengu gets only kin bonus and legion gets all damage types. But bumping rof alone would suffice. Also its worth noting that 37,5% (maxed) rof bonus = 60% dps boost. 25% is 33% DPS boost. Thus (5 launchers for comparison): legion: 5x1,25x1,33 = 8,3 tengu (non-kin): 5x1x1,6 = 8 tengu (kin): 5x1,25x1,33 = 10 Legion has only 3,7% more DPS than tengu when using any ammo type but when tengu switches over to kin the difference jumps to 20% tengu advantage. Thats quite... bad for legion (and remember that legion can use 1-2 BCU wheras tengu can easily put 2-3) Boosting legion ROF would end up with: 5x1,25x1,33 = 10 effective launchers. This time legion has same dps as kin tengu and 25% more than other damage types which can be easily patched by putting 2BCU on tengu vs 1 BCU on legion (similiar damage on all types, almost 20% more dps on kinetic tengu). In 3 vs 2 BCUs (tengu/legion) tengu will be around 10% dps short on other damage types but will have 10% more on kinetic. Other option is boosting damage: 5x1,375x1,33 = 9,14 on legion. 14% more than non-kinetic tengu, 10% less than kinetic tengu. But as soon as tengu gets additional BCUs the difference will skyrocket back to previous levels. To sum up: boosting rof to 7,5% will at least get DPS on both ships close to each other when using HAMs (and worth noting: legion can only use HAMs plus it would still lack range of tengu). Boosting by upping damage not ROF would mean legion still needs 1 more lowslot to actually keep on same level as tengu (ergo: in between its kinetic/non-kinetic damage). Till then? Even drake will outdamage it :) EDIT: ah and just for comparison. bumping both damage and rof: 5 x 1,375 x 1,6 = 11. 10% more than kinetic, 37,5% more than non-kinetic. It would just reverse roles of both ships.

darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.13 16:52:00 - [71] thanks for doing the math! :)
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:23:00 - [72] Ok if that's settled, I think the pressing issue is the covert subsystem.... If CCP does Nothing else, this must be buffed. The imbalance is staring them in the face!
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:39:00 - [73] Originally by: IceAero Ok if that's settled, I think the pressing issue is the covert subsystem.... If CCP does Nothing else, this must be buffed. The imbalance is staring them in the face! well the other laser subsystem also needs some love think
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2010.01.14 11:49:00 - [74] Edited by: Exitar Stormscion on 14/01/2010 11:54:24 Edited by: Exitar Stormscion on 14/01/2010 11:52:52 Edited by: Exitar Stormscion on 14/01/2010 11:50:03 I will say this for the Legion T3 ( didnt experiment with rest t3 ) There are 2 max 3 usefull setups only... it is suposed to be versatile. DRONE SUBSISTEM = VERY VERY VERY BAD ( needs to have 75 bandwidth better bonus of durability mining and repair amount of drones ). VAMPIRE SUBSISTEM = VERY VERY BAD. ( needs range bonus with amount ). LASER SUBSISTEM = only one decent ( it is not THAT bad when compared with the rest its usable ). MISSILE SUBSISTEM = HM tengu does more dps on longer range then HAM legion ( LOL ) tengu with HAM deference is even bigger ! And all that + tengu can have superior tank oO WTF. And all t3 have problems with RIGS ... if they are modular and we are supposed to switch them around then make some useful setups and make so that we can un rig them. Mortal in body Eternal in will.
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2010.01.14 12:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Seishi Maru I personally find it interesting that ppl at ccp thought the ewar subs should remain inferior to the recons, yet the offensive subs deal more damage than hacs. This With that logic arbitrator should be better ewar then curse ? Right ? Fail :) Mortal in body Eternal in will.
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.01.14 13:24:00 - [76] Edited by: Azuse on 14/01/2010 13:25:01 Originally by: Exitar Stormscion This With that logic arbitrator should be better ewar then curse ? Right ? Fail :) Eh? Last time i check T3 cost more in both isk and sp (you loose them). By that logic T3 should be on par with T2, not better. Quite how you draw a T1 hull being superior to a T2 hull form that is a mystery, poor English/reading perhaps. In any case, the fact of the matter is in assault config T3 is superior to hacs in both tank and damage output. It does so at reduced range but it does in nonetheless. People also seem to expect this given the cost, yet ccp chose to make the ewar vastly inferior to T2. So you have one sub notably superior and one notably inferior - this is wrong. It's also worth pointing out that the ewar subs are never really used while the offensive ones carry the highest pricetag for a reason. I'm not saying the ewar should be better (although following ccps logic applied to offensive sub then it quite obviously should be) however it should at lest be on par with T2. If not then peopl will never use them, which as I already said makes the concept of a customizable ship redundant. The lack of variation in slot layout largely ones down to ccps design of certain subs being used in certain configs, e.g. ewar + cloaking = balanced low/mids but since ewar subs are pants they're not used and you have to many lows on a proteus and too many mids on a legion. Then there's also the fact that not everyone will want those specific configs, or that other subs e.g. the eccm one, are just infinity superior. -------------------------
Exitar Stormscion	Posted - 2010.01.14 14:38:00 - [77] Edited by: Exitar Stormscion on 14/01/2010 14:39:58 What i meant was that if "t3 recon" that costst 500 to 600 mil is weaker then t2 reacon that costs 100 to 150 mil then t1 ewar ships that cost 3 to 5 mil should be better then t2 ships and they are not. In fact t2 are vastly superior to t1 so there is no reason that t3 should be inferior in many statistics to t2 recons. So i was sarcastically pointing how it is fail logic of CCP design. Mortal in body Eternal in will.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.17 17:40:00 - [78] Any blues willing to comment?
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.01.18 02:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Kurenin The EWAR thingy is awful too. It's like the stupid EWAR frigate. No one really cares enough that you're draining 1 cap every 20 years, nos / neuts aren't really effective unless you're using BS size ones and this has always been the case. It's pretty amazing it doesn't have a range bonus on it because even as it is (i.e. half the strength of a Pilgrim) you've still got no drone bay, so CCP actually figure you'll use it in 12km range with absolutely zero gtfo-ability you'd get from even light ECM drones. It boggles the mind. The only thing worse than the neut subsystem is the covops one, but it's a pretty close race.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2010.01.18 14:51:00 - [80] Imho Legion will be fine if every Electronic Subsystem will have one more low and one less medium slot. 4 mid substems for Amarr are just crazy imho. Some more balancing will be needed of course with individual problematic subsystems but every SC have them and it should be fixed on case by case basis.

Fighter26 Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.01.19 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Darth Felin Imho Legion will be fine if every Electronic Subsystem will have one more low and one less medium slot. 4 mid substems for Amarr are just crazy imho. Some more balancing will be needed of course with individual problematic subsystems but every SC have them and it should be fixed on case by case basis. I would be intrested to see this happen, it could assist with fitting problems of legion setups across the board and wouldn't be too overpowered. Love Amarr, but just trained a alt for Tengu due to problems atm
RootEmerger	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:26:00 - [82] Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3?
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:32:00 - [83] Originally by: RootEmerger Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3? Its superior to others (maybe except tengu). You can get both high ehp, mediciore DPS ones (like 400k ehp, ~450 dps) or very high DPS mediciore EHP setups (750-1000 dps, 150-250k ehp dependant on implants). Even covops setup can get circa 400-500dps (afaik, didnt check). Add good recon subsystem (10%/lvl = 50% more range on scrams/disruptors giving you around 21km overheated faction scrams which just PWN), good slot layout (3-4 mids, usually 7 lowslots), drones on most (all?) subsystem configurations, decent speed. Its just very good.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.19 21:02:00 - [84] PLEASE!
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.20 09:13:00 - [85] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: RootEmerger Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3? Its superior to others (maybe except tengu). You can get both high ehp, mediciore DPS ones (like 400k ehp, ~450 dps) or very high DPS mediciore EHP setups (750-1000 dps, 150-250k ehp dependant on implants). Even covops setup can get circa 400-500dps (afaik, didnt check). Add good recon subsystem (10%/lvl = 50% more range on scrams/disruptors giving you around 21km overheated faction scrams which just PWN), good slot layout (3-4 mids, usually 7 lowslots), drones on most (all?) subsystem configurations, decent speed. Its just very good. I like how you advertise that there is one setup that can do all of that at once. Be sure to point out that you have to be so close to them that you can see how much coffee they still have in their cup to do that DPS. So yeah, if you don't care about being neuted, scramed, webed... Proteus is for you. ...or you could go Legion and stay out of web and scram range and bail if you need to.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.20 10:11:00 - [86] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/01/2010 10:14:02 Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: RootEmerger Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3? Its superior to others (maybe except tengu). You can get both high ehp, mediciore DPS ones (like 400k ehp, ~450 dps) or very high DPS mediciore EHP setups (750-1000 dps, 150-250k ehp dependant on implants). Even covops setup can get circa 400-500dps (afaik, didnt check). Add good recon subsystem (10%/lvl = 50% more range on scrams/disruptors giving you around 21km overheated faction scrams which just PWN), good slot layout (3-4 mids, usually 7 lowslots), drones on most (all?) subsystem configurations, decent speed. Its just very good. I like how you advertise that there is one setup that can do all of that at once. Be sure to point out that you have to be so close to them that you can see how much coffee they still have in their cup to do that DPS. So yeah, if you don't care about being neuted, scramed, webed... Proteus is for you. ...or you could go Legion and stay out of web and scram range and bail if you need to. Im quite sure the OR i put in my post above states it is NOT one setup. Ofc you are butthurt "i need to poast" troll so you wouldnt see this. Also if i post applicable DPS its your friggin problem how you enter that range to put it on target. If you are in range (ergo: they way i play - engaging at MY weapon range not the one enemy prefers) then you deal said 700-1000dps setup dependant. Ofc such an ELITE player as you would know this amrite? So pretty much either say where i am wrong or shut up. And seeing how my values are quite right (as i use the DPS proteus and LK uses slaved-max EHP version and both work as i posted above) then you should really shut up. EDIT: also if i wanted to stay out of web range i would have brought drake which outdamages legion up to 30km (where javelin HAM range ends).
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.01.20 15:58:00 - [87] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: RootEmerger Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3? Its superior to others (maybe except tengu). You can get both high ehp, mediciore DPS ones (like 400k ehp, ~450 dps) or very high DPS mediciore EHP setups (750-1000 dps, 150-250k ehp dependant on implants). Even covops setup can get circa 400-500dps (afaik, didnt check). Add good recon subsystem (10%/lvl = 50% more range on scrams/disruptors giving you around 21km overheated faction scrams which just PWN), good slot layout (3-4 mids, usually 7 lowslots), drones on most (all?) subsystem configurations, decent speed. Its just very good. I like how you advertise that there is one setup that can do all of that at once. Be sure to point out that you have to be so close to them that you can see how much coffee they still have in their cup to do that DPS. So yeah, if you don't care about being neuted, scramed, webed... Proteus is for you. ...or you could go Legion and stay out of web and scram range and bail if you need to. What you talk of is a facet of blaster warfare, it's not specific to the Proteus. The difference is whilst most other blaster-boats have drawbacks, Proteus can do the whole gank thing whilst simultaneously having 200k+ EHP in a cruiser hull.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 10:34:00 - [88] There really is no room for discussion here. The only legion fit that doesn't suck is the unprobable, cloaking, bubble immune damnation. Thats it. Every other legion fit is outdone by existing Tech 2 (and often tech 1) Amarr ships. The only slight exception to this is a 6 beam sniping Legion vs. the zealot, where it will gain a slight dps advantage assuming equal heatsinks, all for five times the cost of a Zealot. What an improvement! Close range lasers? Harbinger, Absolution, Omen Navy, Phantasm all do it better. Various cross-laser ships (laser myrm anyone) will do it better. HAM? Drake and Tengu does it better. Cloaking? Every recon and T3 does it better. A pilgrim will out tank and outgank a covert legion, and it will probably still find room for some neuts in there as well. A covert laser proteus does it better. Far, far, far better. Neuts? Unbonused neut ships do it better, and without a loltastic 13 ECCM ship rating. Heres a fun factoid: 5x EC-600s have a 46% jam chance vs. this subsystem per cycle. Drones? Dot make me laugh - the drone subsystem uses two bonuses for worse drones than an arbitrator's. This is all really, really easy to see as well. There are no "well, if you fit the ship like this..." arguments to be made. The legion sucks, and it sucks hard. I am a 100% Amarr skilled pilot, and I will be cross-training for a proteus. Even if I were to never train heavy drones or hybrids, I would have a better covert laser platform on that ship than any possible legion. Lets not kid ourselves either here: the only "unique" thing that T3 brought is the interdiction nullifier, and thats only really useful on cloaking gank boats. Having a covert/null legion that isn't worth the reinforced scrap metal its made out of is a serious blow to the validity of the entire ship's existence. These problems aren't just limited to the Legion of course. Every T3 ship is a landmine of terrible subsystems. Frankly, there are only 1 or two per slot worth fitting, and the rest are comedy options. The entirety of T3 needs to be redone, such that each subsystem is worth fitting, each subsystem can be used in multiple ways, and each race does not blatantly run copies of every other race's subsystem. Thats never going to happen, but it really should. I would normally go into a long, drawn out list of fixes to the Legion, but fraknly its easier to say "scrap every subsystem and start over" than list the fixes that need to be made. The only ones that are even remotely OK are the defensive subs, and thats only because they copied a standard template for them.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.22 12:03:00 - [89] be careful with your wishes please. the total revamp might destroy nice setups on other t3 cruiser. (hides his ham tengu to hope it survives)
RootEmerger	Posted - 2010.01.22 16:07:00 - [90] Originally by: Durzel Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: RootEmerger Just a curiosity, anybody has done this kind of number crunching over the proteus? how it classifies against the other t3? Its superior to others (maybe except tengu). You can get both high ehp, mediciore DPS ones (like 400k ehp, ~450 dps) or very high DPS mediciore EHP setups (750-1000 dps, 150-250k ehp dependant on implants). Even covops setup can get circa 400-500dps (afaik, didnt check). Add good recon subsystem (10%/lvl = 50% more range on scrams/disruptors giving you around 21km overheated faction scrams which just PWN), good slot layout (3-4 mids, usually 7 lowslots), drones on most (all?) subsystem configurations, decent speed. Its just very good. I like how you advertise that there is one setup that can do all of that at once. Be sure to point out that you have to be so close to them that you can see how much coffee they still have in their cup to do that DPS. So yeah, if you don't care about being neuted, scramed, webed... Proteus is for you. ...or you could go Legion and stay out of web and scram range and bail if you need to. What you talk of is a facet of blaster warfare, it's not specific to the Proteus. The difference is whilst most other blaster-boats have drawbacks, Proteus can do the whole gank thing whilst simultaneously having 200k+ EHP in a cruiser hull. So, it's nice for 0km ganking, absolutely unusable for everything else?

Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.22 17:30:00 - [91] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/01/2010 17:33:23 Quote: Quote: What you talk of is a facet of blaster warfare, it's not specific to the Proteus. The difference is whilst most other blaster-boats have drawbacks, Proteus can do the whole gank thing whilst simultaneously having 200k+ EHP in a cruiser hull. So, it's nice for 0km ganking, absolutely unusable for everything else? If you cant find a use for 250k (or 400k) EHP cruisersized blaster/droneboat then fly something else. Noone is forcing you to fly proteus. On the other hand those who fly it and actually know the difference between 30k ehp 750dps deimos and 250k ehp 750dps proteus are quite glad how awesome it is. Or if you want range - just use hybrid armature + rails. You can be sure you will both outrange and outdps pulse legion at ranges larger than 12km. Quote: be careful with your wishes please. the total revamp might destroy nice setups on other t3 cruiser. (hides his ham tengu to hope it survives) HAM tengu is nice indeed tho id love to actually fit 2x LSE on 6x HAM one. Unfortunately its crap to fit (grid issues) and will always end up with 150-180k EHP (might be a bit over 200 with CN invuls on overheat but wont even come close to armor tankers ehp in similiar setup). Price to pay for 950dps (kinetic) and good range i guess :X
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.22 17:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Quote: be careful with your wishes please. the total revamp might destroy nice setups on other t3 cruiser. (hides his ham tengu to hope it survives) HAM tengu is nice indeed tho id love to actually fit 2x LSE on 6x HAM one. Unfortunately its crap to fit (grid issues) and will always end up with 150-180k EHP (might be a bit over 200 with CN invuls on overheat but wont even come close to armor tankers ehp in similiar setup). Price to pay for 950dps (kinetic) and good range i guess :X active tanked with 5 launchers for me.
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.01.22 17:49:00 - [93] Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33 Legion sucks does it? http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344 http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997 Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.22 20:07:00 - [94] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33 Legion sucks does it? http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344 http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997 Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination. I can do the same with raven + scimmy or just one deadspace fit tengu so dunno what are you trying to prove. Actually looking at rr sniper battleships (lol) you could prolly do this in a sleipnir... Random killmails of random badfits doesnt really show if one ship is good or no.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 22:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 22/01/2010 17:49:33 Legion sucks does it? http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37344 http://veto.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=37997 Doesn't seem that way for me, that legion and proteus make one hell of a combination. Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker.
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.01.23 00:46:00 - [96] Here's the real story guys.... Let's stop thinking so much about comparing one t3 ship directly to another, and talk about utility. I'm not so fussed with the fact that the legion isn't the same ship as the other t3's. Legion makes a far superior close range zealot Legion makes a far superior sniper zealot legion makes a far superior sacrilege So far we are good... the ship is worth something. Where we go all wrong is the covert config. The subs/bonuses need to be made so that the legion can be configured into a slightly better pilgrim. The covert config's just suck at the moment.... CCP here's where you need to fix the legion. We have no range bonus to neuts, so obviously it's gonna compare to the pilgrim instead of the curse.... but there is no reason to ever choose a legion over a pilgrim with the current options. Crappy DPS, still meh tank, insignificant dps via drones, and you get to miss some of the nice bonuses such as the TP bonus that make it all work in the pilgrim. In this config, the ship should retain the TP bonus, the dps via drones needs to improve, etc etc etc. Give us a better pilgrim setup for our covert config, and you've essentially fixed the legion. Sure it still won't be an uber tank, or an uber dps ship, but a pilgrim with only a slight increase in tank, and a slight increase in dps, would be WELL worth the costs associated with upgrading to t3.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.23 01:40:00 - [97] Edited by: MalVortex on 23/01/2010 01:40:43 Originally by: Tom Peeping Here's the real story guys.... Let's stop thinking so much about comparing one t3 ship directly to another, and talk about utility. I'm not so fussed with the fact that the legion isn't the same ship as the other t3's. So you don't mind that the Legion sucks compared to other T3s. Cool. Quote: Legion makes a far superior close range zealot You don't use zealots in close range. The lack of any form of close defense option against frigates is abysmal on the zealot, let alone on a 500mil isk ship. Even then, the legion really doesn't out DPS the zealot at all, with 9 effective turrets on the legion vs. 8.3125 effective turrets on the zealot). The real comparison here is to either the Omen Navy (drones + neut), or the Absolution. Both will outdamage the Legion, and the Absolution will outtank it. Quote: Legion makes a far superior sniper zealot Only the very rich can afford to use a sniper legion as part of a HAC gang. It brings no extra damage or tracking to the table over the Zealot, just extra buffer. This is of limited use, as you are guaranteed primary. A legion next to 20 sniping zealots kind of stands out. Quote: legion makes a far superior sacrilege The Sac kind of sucks. Its only real use is an afterburning/active tanking heavy tackle ship. It would be considerably better in the relative sense if the Drake didn't exist. The HAM drake beats out both the Sac and the Legion, and takes all of 3 days to cross-train into (caldari cruiser 3). Quote: So far we are good... the ship is worth something. Er? Quote: Where we go all wrong is the covert config. The subs/bonuses need to be made so that the legion can be configured into a slightly better pilgrim. Even if you changed the covert configuration to +25% dps, a laser pilgrim would still outdamage the legion, with a damn close tank. Thats how sad the covert configuration really is. Even with 25% ROF (congratulations, you now outdps a pilgrim), it still has no anti-tackle defense. The proteus in such configuration not only runs around with 400dps, but a 25/100 dronebay for anti-tackle, ECM, and auxilary damage. Quote: The covert config's just suck at the moment.... CCP here's where you need to fix the legion. We have no range bonus to neuts, so obviously it's gonna compare to the pilgrim instead of the curse.... Parasitic complex has half the Pilgrim's neut strength, nevermind the curse's range and power. Quote: Crappy DPS, still meh tank, insignificant dps via drones, Only way a legion gets a dronebay is the drone offensive sub, which is nothing more than a clever troll by CCP. Two bonuses for worse drones than T1 droneships wooo~ Quote: and you get to miss some of the nice bonuses such as the TP bonus that make it all work in the pilgrim. In this config, the ship should retain the TP bonus, the dps via drones needs to improve, etc etc etc. Give us a better pilgrim setup for our covert config, and you've essentially fixed the legion. You mean TD here. Even if you increased the DPS on the covert configuration, it doesn't matter. It is still outganked by a laser pilgrim, still has no neuts, no TDs, no tank, and no drones. It woudln't change a damn thing. Quote: Sure it still won't be an uber tank, or an uber dps ship, but a pilgrim with only a slight increase in tank, and a slight increase in dps, would be WELL worth the costs associated with upgrading to t3. Faction fit your pilgrim. It will cost less and do the job far better. What the legion needs is a complete reset, not a tiny buff here and there.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.23 09:29:00 - [98] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its superior to others... I will admit I missed the 'or' part. Even still, I stand by the fact that you have to get close to do that dps. I have stated that I agree that: - Nos/Neut bonus should be for range in addition to amount. - +1 additional turret slot. - covert reconfig bonus should be adjusted. Other than that is seems like there is a awful lot of "Make Legion do damage like Proteus without the risk" crying. If you really want that kind of damage and tank, then cross train to the Proteus.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.23 17:38:00 - [99] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its superior to others... I will admit I missed the 'or' part. Even still, I stand by the fact that you have to get close to do that dps. I have stated that I agree that: - Nos/Neut bonus should be for range in addition to amount. - +1 additional turret slot. - covert reconfig bonus should be adjusted. Other than that is seems like there is a awful lot of "Make Legion do damage like Proteus without the risk" crying. If you really want that kind of damage and tank, then cross train to the Proteus. No **** sherlock. I already fly proteus becaue its... superior? And noone wanted "damage like proteus". You created this in your own mind during some poasting-rage i guess. So better read up the thread (and properly this time) or stop dropping random crap all over the place.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.24 07:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else.

Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.01.24 11:03:00 - [101] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else. I think he wants it to be worth considering over the T1/T2 Amarr ships that already exist, which is not too much to ask surely? Zealot is a more practical sniper. Absolution is a far better tank/DPS pulse-range ship. Pilgrim is far better at neuting. It's a telling statement that the best application of the Legion is being sat in space (unprobeable) providing bonuses to other ships that are actually practically beneficial to the fleet beyond providing the enemy with a nice KB stat boost. If you look at the Tengu or the Proteus however there are setups on both ships where there is frankly nothing else available that touches them. If you can afford either ship you can do things with them that simply isn't possible on T2. The problem with the Legion (forgetting obvious things like the covops subsystem) is that unlike the other T3s where your ability to afford them is the only limiting factor, flying the Legion is like flashing ISK around for no good reason at all.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.24 15:27:00 - [102] Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire So what do you want then? You seem like you have a lot of tears that you just want to let out regardless of any suggestions, comments or criticism. If that is the case take them somewhere else. Im quite sure i told you to read up the thread. And im quite sure i told you this multiple times. So do your homework and read the ef up and you will have ALL your questions answered. I cant be bothered to re-post same stuff for one person who is unable to comprehend it while reading for the 1st time. Fortunately other posters from this thread actually managed to pass basic reading lessons.
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.01.24 19:47:00 - [103] Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker. Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.24 19:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Deva Blackfire
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.24 20:48:00 - [105] Originally by: Mr McFail Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker. Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it. maybe you can share your wisdom?
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.01.24 21:38:00 - [106] Edited by: Mr McFail on 24/01/2010 21:38:22 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Originally by: MalVortex Your name is the telling point in this post. A properly fit bad ship will kill improperly fit bad players non-shocker. Oh please, get of your high horse - the legion is fine... Not my fault you SUCK at fitting it. maybe you can share your wisdom? That's easy. I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.24 21:41:00 - [107] Originally by: Mr McFail I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support. So what support role does it excel at where you cant find cheaper and better choice that is not legion? Im waiting for some examples. Yeh i know t3 warfare subsystem gives 5% over 3% on commands but thats it plus all commands get this one - so this one gets ruled out by default.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.24 22:13:00 - [108] Originally by: Mr McFail That's easy. I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support. did you see the discussion on the missile subsystems for tengu and legion? the legion subsystem which has more disadvantages than the tengu, already comes with pre-nerfed bonuses. how is that good game design?
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.01.25 13:27:00 - [109] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail That's easy. I don't expect all ships of a type and class to perform exactly the same as each other, each t3 ship has a role that it is better at than the others, the legion isn't a gank ship - it's better suited for support. did you see the discussion on the missile subsystems for tengu and legion? the legion subsystem which has more disadvantages than the tengu, already comes with pre-nerfed bonuses. how is that good game design? Caldari ships have always been superior in the missile department, pretty much every Caldari ship will utilise missiles better than an Amarr one. You don't see the Tengu matching the Legion in Lasers.
Deva Blackfire Cry Me a River INC	Posted - 2010.01.25 14:34:00 - [110] Actually the only 2 missile ships that can be compared (amarr vs caldari) are sacri and cerb. Sacri gets HAM damage bonus, cerb gets all missile (but only kinetic) damage bonus = balanced. Both get same ROF bonus = balanced. Sacri gets tank, cerb gets range = still balanced. And then enter tengu and legion. Tank = similiar. Gank = tengu is better. Range = tengu is better. We could compare vengeance and hawk, flycatcher and heretic nd you will find same stuff. One has range other tank. So yes like i stated earlier - legion missile subsystem is massively underpowered compared to tengu one. Not only it has only 2 bonuses (where tengu gets 3) but also one of those bonuses is WEAKER than tengu one.

IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2010.01.27 18:47:00 - [111] I'm attempting to move this discussion to the Features and Idea forum where it belongs. I've posted some well-thought-out ideas (I hope), and I encourage you all to post feedback and your own ideas there as well. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1258583 I understand we have some differences in logic, but we all agree whole-heartily the ship needs love, badly.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.30 02:42:00 - [112] I tried to be polite. No effect. Know now, ye fellow posters, of my heroism - I shall attract dev attention by sacrificing myself on the altar of moderation. Pardon me for my profanity and imminent forum ban but THIS SHIP SUCKS DICK oh god so much dick. Wheelbarrows full of wiggly jiggly dick. Dumptrucks. Dick-trucks. The Legion sucks as many dicks, as there are grains of sand on earth. Look, look up, cast your eyes into the nighttime heavens. Count the countless stars. Each of those stars is a sloppy dick, and the Legion is sucking it. For the Legion's internal mouth volume to accomodate such a pantheon of dancing, dripping dicks, it would have to effectively be boundless; it cannot be calculated or grasped by the limited human mind. It must extend into fantastic infinity to accomodate this absolute, unending onslaught of dicks that it is sucking. In conclusion the Legion sucks dicks. pls fix.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.01.30 02:49:00 - [113] See you in a month, Eve Online forums!
MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.30 04:30:00 - [114] Your sacrifice will not be in vain, Istvaan!
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2010.01.30 17:42:00 - [115] Legion isn't horrible but if you compare subsystems to T2 variants it's pretty weak and seems somewhat useless for a price you need to pay to make it work at all: deadspace/faction modules etc... This far I've figured that legion would make: 1) sacrilege 2) zealot 3) crappy expensive pilgrim I don't understand why would I pay for expensive sacrilege when I already have one. And only need t2 modules to make it work. Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules... Only thing I can imagine Legion doing well is PvE in level 4 missions or C3 wormholes.
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.02.01 00:11:00 - [116] Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 00:12:18 Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules... My Legion not only tanks 740~ DPS with standard faction eanm's and a plex repper + t2 rigs, it dishes out 440~ dps while being 52% cap stable using conflagration m's, you were saying? All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for ****. Legion is fine as is, thanks.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.01 00:54:00 - [117] Edited by: darius mclever on 01/02/2010 00:54:07 you only get 740dps out of a faction/deadspace tank? wow! a tengu gets easily 1600-3000 dps tank with the same. and please post your fit :D
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.01 00:56:00 - [118] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/02/2010 01:00:32 @115 Awesome. You can get better stats on myrmidon for much lower price too. Edit: Wait, WHAT? That needed FACTION eanms, DEADSPACE repper and t2 RIGS? Lmao. I got 750+ rep on myrm with t2 stuff and t1 rigs... And 550+dps to add to the insult. Or 500ish with neuts to break "permatanking" setups. To quote you: Quote: All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for **** Yeh, pretty much you are one of them. Either this or legion is just crap. And considering that legion defensive subsystems are ok (just lacks 1 lowslot compared to proteus) it is prolly bad fit.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.01 09:25:00 - [119] DAMN THE GODS FOR NOT MAKING AMARR THE BEST IN EVERY SHIP CATEGORY!!!
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.01 10:58:00 - [120] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 00:12:18 Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Also if fitting for active tank it seems a bit fragile for T3, no buffer or whatsoever etc. Also seems to have cap problems even with booster and top notch modules... My Legion not only tanks 740~ DPS with standard faction eanm's and a plex repper + t2 rigs, it dishes out 440~ dps while being 52% cap stable using conflagration m's, you were saying? All I see in this thread are people who don't actually know how to fit a ship for ***. Legion is fine as is, thanks. So basically about the same as a dual-rep Absolution, with less DPS, lower resists, no drones and at least 3x the price? Awesome.*

darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.01 11:41:00 - [121] Originally by: Marlona Sky DAMN THE GODS FOR NOT MAKING AMARR THE BEST IN EVERY SHIP CATEGORY!!! we dont want to. tengu will always be the best! we just want to make it's gap closer to put the loki more into shame. :)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.02.01 14:08:00 - [122] Originally by: Durzel It's a telling statement that the best application of the Legion is being sat in space (unprobeable) providing bonuses to other ships that are actually practically beneficial to the fleet beyond providing the enemy with a nice KB stat boost. Hey that's not all! You can sit in a pos too, and fit a couple more links, and still get those delicious 28% armor bonuses.
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.02.01 16:55:00 - [123] Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:06:44 Originally by: Durzel So basically about the same as a dual-rep Absolution, with less DPS, lower resists, no drones and at least 3x the price? Awesome. A dual repper absolution not only gets nowhere near what a legion can tank, the cap is nowhere near stable, the legion can easily fit a web to slow fast ships down for its lasers so no need for the drones, the legion has 91% resists to any 2 damage types easily with hardeners (while still being cap stable doing all of this with just 2 cap rechargers...) and finally the dps may not be as good as an absolution but it's not a ***** battlecruiser class ship is it! Try again!
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.01 17:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret?
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.02.01 17:07:00 - [125] Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.01 17:27:00 - [126] Edited by: darius mclever on 01/02/2010 17:27:20 Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it. and we welcome Mr. Heavy Neut.
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.01 18:57:00 - [127] I like how that PVP setup has no scrambler/disruptor and no MWD. Totally awesome setup
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:04:00 - [128] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I like how that PVP setup has no scrambler/disruptor and no MWD. Totally awesome setup Well AB isnt that bad with T3. you get still decent speed and can use your sigradius for tanking. i would say viable for lowsec and highsec. especially you can scare away all those arazu/lachesis who think "i scram you and your mwd is f*cked" :) missing point and cap booster is worse imho.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.01 21:30:00 - [129] Originally by: Mr McFail http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Awesome fit bro. I particularly like the giant thermal hole, no MWD, no injector, no point and no DC2. Oh, and no buffer. Didn't realise we were talking about PVE fits... in that case, the Tengu eclipses the Drake by some considerable margin (does more DPS, tanks considerably more in active fit). Proteus does almost BS level DPS in some configurations whilst having 200k+ EHP. You're certainly living up to your name man.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2010.02.03 17:20:00 - [130] Originally by: Mr McFail terrible fit that fit is just terrible for pvp. it might work on level 4's. in pvp you'd die hilariously fast. probably worth 2 points out of 10. For what I've seen this far legion has problems with capacitor (much like absolution) and powergrid (unless you go ham fit). You can make it have decent armor buffer but then if you go compare it with proteus (closest similar ship, nerf :p) your ship is gonna suck compared to all isk you're going to pay. Laser setups both pulse and beam setups could be a lot better (need capacitor/pg), ham setup lacks dps or some other bonus if not dps (not to mention CARGO BAY IS TOO SMALL), neut setup is a bit meh (while being probably the most working pvp fit for legion)

MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:55:00 - [131] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it. A single medium neut and your dead. For all that pimp, a Myrmidon tanks more, does more damage, has more EHP, and does it on T2. Oh, and it doesn't immediately die the moment somebody with a medium neut shows up. Frankly, any decent BC will absolutely destroy that ship. A Hurricane with RF-EMP and two gyro's breaks your tank, and it's two neuts will cap out that lolegion in under a minute. Also, showing off ships and not the implants you plug into them is bad form. If we really wanted to make this comparison one sided, that 'Cane has a Slave set plugged in. God knows you could buy a set or three for the cost of that setup. 523 dps on conflag is acceptable damage? I would point out how trivially easy it is for proper cruisers to break that damage point (and with real pvp fits instead of....that...), but I'm pretty sure this is all just an elaborate troll trying to convince CCP to actually buff the legion.
Mr McFail	Posted - 2010.02.04 18:41:00 - [132] Originally by: MalVortex QQ Recently get killed by a well fit legion did you? Bawwww.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.04 18:59:00 - [133] Great comeback, you sure picked apart his counterpoints masterfully.
Elder Kromb Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.07 00:50:00 - [134] Originally by: Mr McFail Originally by: MalVortex QQ Recently get killed by a well fit legion did you? Bawwww. Fight on honorable EFTwarrior
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.02.07 07:13:00 - [135] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it. And how, oh how, Mister McFail, do you intend to hold your target down and keep up with it with no Scram or Microwarpdrive? How do you intend to stay alive for more than a minute the second anything with a neutraliser (Ergo everything with a free utility high) bigger than a small shows up? Oh. Right. Rats don't run away/need to be scrammed, and for the most part, do not Neutralise in the normal sense. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.02.07 11:33:00 - [136] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 07/02/2010 11:36:01 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Deva Blackfire I like how that PVP setup has no scrambler/disruptor and no MWD. Totally awesome setup Well AB isnt that bad with T3. you get still decent speed and can use your sigradius for tanking. i would say viable for lowsec and highsec. especially you can scare away all those arazu/lachesis who think "i scram you and your mwd is f*cked" :) missing point and cap booster is worse imho. agree. People get too much fixated on the NEEEED of mwd and forget that in high sec an low sec there is a HUGE amount of scenarios where AB is very good. Yes.. less GTFO capability.. but more chance of killing the thing that engaged you if you selected the situation correctly. So its an option for not sissy pilots. Also missing a POint MIGHt be excusable if you are supposed to be in gang with something like an arazu. But the cap booster is very serious if you intend to engage battleships (on smaller ships you usually see much less neuts). But peopel are missing the point that the stup he presented can EASILy be upgraded to use a booster and a scrambler, what enables it to fight close range quite respectfully. Yes active tank is still vulnerable against for examepl a tempest with2 heavy neuts. But a tempest will kill any cruiser sized ship that gets under 20 km and need cap to fire its guns anyway....
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.07 12:47:00 - [137] But we are not missing the fact that his setup ca be killed by tengu/proteus without bigger problems (and both will have same/better tank AND better DPS output to boot). We also arent missing the point that his setup can be easily killed by battlecruisers (yeh, the t1 ships) like myrmidon or hurricane. So if you need to pay 1b for ship that works more-less like a myrmidon (50mil tops) then why bother with legion? What does it do better than said bc? Fact is: legion is just bad. His setup is also bad no matter how you look at it. Engaging 2-3 BCs in it would be a suicide. Prot can engage 2-3 BC easily and win. So can tengu.
Apogee Realms	Posted - 2010.02.09 09:54:00 - [138] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Originally by: Mr McFail terrible fit that fit is just terrible for pvp. it might work on level 4's. in pvp you'd die hilariously fast. probably worth 2 points out of 10. For what I've seen this far legion has problems with capacitor (much like absolution) and powergrid (unless you go ham fit). You can make it have decent armor buffer but then if you go compare it with proteus (closest similar ship, nerf :p) your ship is gonna suck compared to all isk you're going to pay. Laser setups both pulse and beam setups could be a lot better (need capacitor/pg), ham setup lacks dps or some other bonus if not dps (not to mention CARGO BAY IS TOO SMALL), neut setup is a bit meh (while being probably the most working pvp fit for legion) This. The Legion needs to be fixed and fast. At the moment its really not worth flying, and especially not at its current price.
Lady Immortal	Posted - 2010.02.09 11:06:00 - [139] Way to fall for a not even clever troll guys. Cmon mr mc fail :D? I refuse to believe anyones truly stupid enough to say the legion is fine in it's current implementation. It has to be a troll.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.02.09 11:41:00 - [140] You say that, but the thread is moved without comment. Odd given that Test Server Feedback has always been one of the "serious post" style balancing areas, and has dev-commented, long spiraling threads regarding ship balance in it - vindicator anyone? Guess this kills any hope of an improvement to the Legion this patch cycle.

Scott Ryder Amarr Sisters of Korhal Terran Commonwealth	Posted - 2010.02.09 12:18:00 - [141] Short story. Legion does sucks alot of **** as Istvaan Shogaatsu mentioned. I pilot a Tengu on my alt outdamages and out tanks the legion and it has room for ew. Legion is deadspace fitted with t2 aux nano pumps and dual centum reps/eanms. It isnt even close to the tengu in neither tank or gank. The legion is a sad excuse of a t3 cruiser.
Ran Khanon Amarr Vengeance Innovations	Posted - 2010.02.09 13:54:00 - [142] Originally by: Scott Ryder Short story. Legion does sucks alot of **** as Istvaan Shogaatsu mentioned. I pilot a Tengu on my alt outdamages and out tanks the legion and it has room for ew. Legion is deadspace fitted with t2 aux nano pumps and dual centum reps/eanms. It isnt even close to the tengu in neither tank or gank. The legion is a sad excuse of a t3 cruiser. ^says enough, really. Conclusion after reading the whole thread: - Legion is a decent ship but when compared to its class members it pales, or when regarding the value for isk factor. Also: bump for attempting to make T3 cruisers something to look forward to as an Amarr only pilot.
Exploding Tukey	Posted - 2010.02.09 15:14:00 - [143] CCP Made it up to the people with Amarr Cruiser 5 by giving them the guardian, the only armor RR ship to be used in fleets. And you dont see many threads yelling how the Oneiros needs a cap transfer boost to make it viable in cap circles.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2010.02.09 15:42:00 - [144] Maek all sheeps the same and gief my boooost!!!
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.09 17:09:00 - [145] oh hi, this is amusing after weeks of constructive discussion we get kicked out of test server feedback :)
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.02.10 01:49:00 - [146] Well this blows.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2010.02.10 04:54:00 - [147] Whats this CCP.. you dont like the problem so lets shuff it somewhere and lets hope it doent pop up? www.garia.net
Jim Raynor Caldari Sinister Corporation	Posted - 2010.02.10 08:19:00 - [148] Originally by: darius mclever oh hi, this is amusing after weeks of constructive discussion we get kicked out of test server feedback :) Well in all honesty, this thread is more suited for ships and modules.. or maybe assembly hall. I figure test server feedback is mostly for new stuff on the test server being actively tested not 'ungimp this' or 'pimp that'. ------ I'll make a sig later.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.10 09:24:00 - [149] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: darius mclever oh hi, this is amusing after weeks of constructive discussion we get kicked out of test server feedback :) Well in all honesty, this thread is more suited for ships and modules.. or maybe assembly hall. I figure test server feedback is mostly for new stuff on the test server being actively tested not 'ungimp this' or 'pimp that'. Not all forum mods are created equal. cough Vindicator thread cough
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2010.02.14 11:43:00 - [150] Originally by: Ran Khanon Conclusion after reading the whole thread: - Legion is a decent ship but when compared to its class members it pales, or when regarding the value for isk factor. Also: bump for attempting to make T3 cruisers something to look forward to as an Amarr only pilot. Especially compared to proteus legion is sucks big time. Proteus has crazy warp scrambler bonus and it can still do full dps with that module on. At least arazu cannot really do so much damage. Even if you forget scrambler bonus legion is a lot of behind the proteus in every way with similar setups, gaining no real advantage over it.

Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:00:00 - [151] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Originally by: Ran Khanon Conclusion after reading the whole thread: - Legion is a decent ship but when compared to its class members it pales, or when regarding the value for isk factor. Also: bump for attempting to make T3 cruisers something to look forward to as an Amarr only pilot. Especially compared to proteus legion is sucks big time. Proteus has crazy warp scrambler bonus and it can still do full dps with that module on. At least arazu cannot really do so much damage. Even if you forget scrambler bonus legion is a lot of behind the proteus in every way with similar setups, gaining no real advantage over it. You get to have your optimal out of web/scram range. Sure, buff the Legion damage but make its optimal the same as the Proteus. So close that you can see what kind of soft drink the person you are engaging is drinking. Now stop crying because Amarr is not the best in every ship class. This thread is just another utterly pathetic "Make Amarr best at everything!" whine. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO PROTEUS DPS THEN TRAIN FOR THE PROTEUS FFS!!!!!!!!
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 12:25:00 - [152] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2010 12:25:45 Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Originally by: Ran Khanon Conclusion after reading the whole thread: - Legion is a decent ship but when compared to its class members it pales, or when regarding the value for isk factor. Also: bump for attempting to make T3 cruisers something to look forward to as an Amarr only pilot. Especially compared to proteus legion is sucks big time. Proteus has crazy warp scrambler bonus and it can still do full dps with that module on. At least arazu cannot really do so much damage. Even if you forget scrambler bonus legion is a lot of behind the proteus in every way with similar setups, gaining no real advantage over it. You get to have your optimal out of web/scram range. Sure, buff the Legion damage but make its optimal the same as the Proteus. So close that you can see what kind of soft drink the person you are engaging is drinking. Now stop crying because Amarr is not the best in every ship class. This thread is just another utterly pathetic "Make Amarr best at everything!" whine. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO PROTEUS DPS THEN TRAIN FOR THE PROTEUS FFS!!!!!!!! And Marlona still ignoring the fact that rail proteus will have same damage as legion, same buffer and better optimal plus better escape capability (due to long scram). Plus totally unable to comprehend what he reads. :shocker: + hidden qq whine "nerf amarr because i cant fly them"
Veliria	Posted - 2010.02.14 13:33:00 - [153] Legion needs a few small dronebay additions to some of its subsystems. After Gallente they are best drone users, so why do Minmatar get dronebays and such and Amarr are left out whilst they have a dedicated drone subsystem. Maybe a 15-25m3 dronebay for the CovOps and Laser subsystem. The HAM setup is generally outdone by the Sacrilege in terms of ISK/Efficiency, and it gets a small dronebay. Drone subsystem needs something as well, maybe add a turret or two or swap out the laser cap bonus for a laser dmg bonus. The laser subsystem lacks damage compared to other ships out there. It doesn't have to surpass them (or you'd make the Abso and Zealot obsolete to a point) but it should be on somewhat equal terms. Replace the damage bonus with a rate of fire bonus may help to buff the DPS a bit. NOS/Neut subsystem is an extremely counterproductive setup, as you'll be forcing a 500-800mil+ ship into scram and web range. In all cases, a Pilgrim is far superior as it gets a dronebay, TD bonus and a covops cloak with the neut bonus. I'd rather see the Neut/NOS subsystem swapped for a 10% TD bonus which gives the Legion pilot a bit more options on how to use it.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.14 13:40:00 - [154] Originally by: Deva Blackfire I WANT PROTEUS DAMAGE ON MY LEGION WITHOUT TRAINING FOR PROTEUS!!!
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.14 14:11:00 - [155] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2010 14:11:36 Originally by: Marlona Sky Originally by: Deva Blackfire I WANT PROTEUS DAMAGE ON MY LEGION WITHOUT TRAINING FOR PROTEUS!!! Marlona Cry can still only troll instead of learning how to read. Cute. (and some more random smiles - it seems flashy colours make you happy or something, better get checked for ADHD) Quote: Legion needs a few small dronebay additions to some of its subsystems. After Gallente they are best drone users, so why do Minmatar get dronebays and such and Amarr are left out whilst they have a dedicated drone subsystem. Thats the issue with most/all t3 id say. For ships this class imo all of em should have small drone bays plus larger ones on drone-centric ships. Quote: Maybe a 15-25m3 dronebay for the CovOps and Laser subsystem. 25m3 = 100dps, ending up with around 300dps on covops subsystem. Still crap but better than frig damage. Laser subsystem imo should be done the "bigger zealot" way - no drones, just guns. With +1 gun it will be around abso level which is fine (and will be noticeable improvement over zealot). Thats ofc without the "drone bay on all t3" i posted above. With 25m3 drones it wont need more guns i guess. All in all - the major issue for me is slot layout. Legion gets way too many mids and lacks 7 lowslot setup. Still dont understand why prot runs 3/7 mid/low wheras all you can get on legion is 4/6 (both ham and gun version). It doesnt need that many mids. Sure they are useful but in this case it loses a lot of utility as a gun (missile brawler) boat with only 6 lows. As someone earlier stated - it was a fault of one of electronics subsystem slot lay. About time to get it fixed imo.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.02.14 15:30:00 - [156] Marlona: show me anywhere in this thread, besides your own posts, where someone says "Legion should have same DPS as Proteus." Go.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.14 22:15:00 - [157] the legion needs to be legend! boooooost!
Admiral Pelleon White Shadow Imperium	Posted - 2010.02.14 22:50:00 - [158] Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it. I'm sorry, are you using conflag in that setup? The ****? ________ CCP Applebabe is evil and must be stopped!
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.02.14 23:14:00 - [159] Hey Marlona, stop being a moron. Please.
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.15 09:59:00 - [160] Legion is over powered. Nerf Legion. Of course I am kidding. Legion needs tweaked to bring it into its own to be on par with the other T3 cruisers. Its own as in unique and not 'just like' any of the other T3. Boost Proteus!!!

Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Hostile Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.15 11:22:00 - [161] Originally by: Marlona Sky Legion is over powered. Nerf Legion. Of course I am kidding. Legion needs tweaked to bring it into its own to be on par with the other T3 cruisers. Its own as in unique and not 'just like' any of the other T3. Boost Proteus!!! man this forum sucks www.garia.net
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.15 11:24:00 - [162] Originally by: Garia666 Originally by: Marlona Sky Legion is over powered. Nerf Legion. Of course I am kidding. Legion needs tweaked to bring it into its own to be on par with the other T3 cruisers. Its own as in unique and not 'just like' any of the other T3. Boost Proteus!!! man this forum sucks CONFIRMED
Locus Bey Gallente Anucaran	Posted - 2010.02.15 12:35:00 - [163] Can't we all just get along and mix racial subsystems
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.15 14:30:00 - [164] Legion needs some help this is true, but not because it's not a whole lot better than a Zealot or that it doesn't perform as a curse because those two clearly outclass the other race's options. You can't have it best all the time, every time. Everyone goes "lol don't use ravens for pvp", "lol blasters suck in 0.0 fleet combat" and before the changes "lol minnie BS". Some things just don't work well in all/preferred situations. So, to me, the Legion lacks something it's just very good at, if only one thing where it excells (not counting gang link unprobable stuff, even though it's good). You can't have it be both uber viable with lasers AND missiles, while also be great with covops. ALL T3 ships, even though they're said to be versatile, have a very narrow niche where they perform. This goes for the proteus, the loki but less for the Tengu. The Tengu being the exception this time I have no issues with, throw Caldari a PVP bone once in a while. I think people have to step away from "T3 is versatile, it has more than one viable option" because they don't, either because CCP sucks at balancing or because they never intended them to have several viable PVP options. So that bring us to what you want the ship to do, personally I'd want it to field lasers and not focus too much on missiles, never liked the "lasers suck so we'll mend that with missiles instead" attitude back when amarr had issues. Pick one strategy that's quintesentially Amarr while being viable (but not silly) in PVP, you'll almost automatically end up with a hefty armor tanked beast with medium range high damage lasers, decent drones and midslot/cap issues. That's what amarr is and the only thing you can change is either up the dps or up the tank, giving it high maneuvrability doesn't fit the Amarr profile and you can't make fast armor tanked ships. Only solution would be a super Sacri with lasers, thing is ofcourse that people don't like that because they'll have to commit but so does a Proteus. You can add some damage a bit (I'd alter damage bonus, not adding extra high slot for various reasons) but apart from that there's nothing much you can do. As it always was the case with amarr it takes so little to make them completely overpowered that it's very difficult to make changes that make sense. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service
d3vo Isotope Laboratories	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:34:00 - [165] Legion fails at putting out proper dps compared to the other T3 cruisers. I think it deserves a ROF bonus to the Liquid Crystal Magnifiers subsystem. ch33rs
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:35:00 - [166] TBH.... I agree with the need for some boosts to the legion, but not all the ones posted on the first page (which was the only one I bothered to read) Legion in sniper laser config is fine. Gets slightly more dps than the zealot, significantly more tank, and has twice the EHP of the standard sniper zealot. A very worthy upgrade. Legion in HAM mode is just fine. Makes a superior sacrilege with excellent active tank (or buffer) with more dps/rep/buffer than the sacrilege. What's not to like? Those 2 configs are just fine and don't need anything. Where we really need help is the stealth bonuses.... no dps bonuses to stealth config at all???? What I'd like to see is legion capable of being a slight upgrade on the pilgrim, in the same way that it's a slight upgrade on the sacrilege or the zealot. The logical thing to do would be to alter the subsystems, so that the drones and neut bonus apply to the covert config options. Having a t3 pilgrim would go a long way to fixing the legion... and a slight dps increase from the pilgrim would be well worth the costs of t3... but the ship would still be nice and vulnerable since neut/nos ranges still require it to get up close and personal... i.e. vulnerable.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.02.15 16:41:00 - [167] ending up with more mid slots than low slots of any amarr shi in any way is super fail. legion has problems, and the loki isnt great, the tengu is pve god and the prot pvp - the legion and loki pick up the bits and trail badly behind.
Seareus Teleid	Posted - 2010.02.15 19:15:00 - [168] Originally by: darius mclever i was looking on a ham legion as 2nd t3 cruiser next to my ham tengu. but the dps compared to the tengu was crap. Originally by: Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Subsystem Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Assault missile launcher rate of fire per level 10% bonus to heavy missile and heavy assault missile velocity per level Originally by: Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Subsystem Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to heavy assault missile damage per level 5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level question that raised while thinking about legion fittings why does the tengu sub has 3 bonuses and the legion sub only 2? why is the launcher ROF bonus reduced to 5% compared to the tengus 7.5%? given the tengu already has a range advantage i would bump both bonuses to 7.5 maybe 10% per level. then the legion would be facemelting when it gets into range, while a tengu could kite the legion (both ham fitted) The ham tengu is lots of fun, so i dont really understand why the ham legion comes gimped out of the factory. also for the laser subsystem it seems a bit low on dmg. you can get a ham tengu to like 730 dps with not much lower range than a heavy pulse zealot, but the dmg difference seems to be too big. and the tank with 2-3 heat sinks isnt any spectacular either. One of your serious points of conjecture is why does the Tengu have better missile stats then the Legion? ... Hang on I'll let you think about that one for a sec before I make you look stupid... ... BECAUSE ITS F'ING CALDARI YOU FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Discord.	Posted - 2010.02.16 00:45:00 - [169] Originally by: Marlona Sky Legion needs tweaked to bring it into its own to be on par with the other T3 cruisers. This sums up all the really needs to be said. Whether you think the legion is good or not, worth the isk or not, the fact is that its weakest in class and needs a bit of bump to be comparable with the other t3s. It doesn't need to be as awesome at pvp as the proteus or as good at pve as tengu, but, it does need to be better than it currently is, because as-is its clearly the worst of the t3 cruisers by a good margin. Heck, it would even be okay if it was the worst by a small margin .
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2010.05.17 16:54:00 - [170] Bump for the greater justice and let's put it in assembly hall so that we can vote for it. ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon

RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.05.17 17:32:00 - [171] Istvaan is right and I'll add a couple of observations being cross-trained Minmatar/Amarr. 1-With the Loki I can make a fairly decent Super-Vaga or Super Huginn, or in my preferred config a very nice Super Command Cheetah. Three different easily identified variants each different and enhancing/surpassing existing T2 counterparts. 2-With the Curse/Pilgrim you have a pair of brilliant recons that fly very differently (as opposed to Rapier/Huginn). In no instance is the Legion capable of enhancing/surpassing the Curse/Pilgrim role in the way the Loki does. This is borked. Badly. The neut range and suck amounts need some reasonable tweaking and possible adjustment to drones across all subs need looking into.
Noran Ferah Red Sky Morning	Posted - 2010.05.17 17:39:00 - [172] The legion also makes a pretty damn good lowsec level 4 mission runner that is immune to probes, which also requires no ammo. Good for those deep dark places...
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2010.05.17 18:38:00 - [173] Originally by: Noran Ferah The legion also makes a pretty damn good lowsec level 4 mission runner that is immune to probes, which also requires no ammo. Good for those deep dark places... I have a strong feeling it won\t be capstable (I mean both tank and DPS) If you go for cap boosters - it's no longer ammoless, if it's not suistanable - it will either require warpouts or be unable to tank all the missions. ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2010.05.18 14:46:00 - [174] Guys, can you please read trough my wall of text. It's mostly the justification for the neut optimal bonus and change in cov. ops subsystem. Legion can be -a beefier version of pulse Zealot -a beefier version of beam Zealot -a much beefier version of Sacrilege (but no drones) -a sucky version of Pilgrim (less damage AND less tank AND no TD bonus AND no bonused light drones to scare tacklers away) Legion CANÆT be -a Curse LetÆs now letÆs look into Amarr cruiser-sized T2 Gang ships: pulse Zealot beam Zealot (to an extent) Sacri Solo ships: Sacri Pilgrim Curse Two additional comments: 1) Sacri is a bad soloship. ItÆs good on paper, but in reality it is bad: a) HAMs and small dronebay results is very-very bad anti-frig defence. It can even be killed by the a properly fitted frig-sized ship û AB setup to negate web, small nos to negate medium neut and enough gank to force Sacri to use up all its cap boost charges û and you are there b) it has to commit to the battle with 0 chance of pulling out if the things go south 2) Curse is a good soloship a) it can shake off tacklers reasonably well b) it has decent buffertank and decent damage c) it fights outside of scram/web range and can disengage with some luck So whatÆs the problem people are having with the Legion is simple: Gang versions of Legion are fine, but it does not have any viable solo PVP setups. It fails as Pili-legion. It is a good Sacri-legion, but itÆs worse than Sacri in something where Sacri itself lacks significantly û anti-frig defence There is no Curse-legion. And all other strategic cruisers have solo versions: Loki has a nice Huginn-Vaga crossover setup Proteus is capable to sport long scram, nice buffer tank and drones Tengu is PVP-Drake on steroids (and Drakes are terribly good in solo, seriously) û but Tengu is overpowered anyway, so disregard that :p Legion just needs a viable solo version too. And it would be consistent to base this viable solo version on the one good solo-ship that Amarr have û Curse. For than you need an energy neut optimal bonus. You could also try to ungimp Pili-legion. For that Legion needs changes in itÆs cov. ops subsystem. Energy consumption bonus is a joke, given that you can fit autocannons and profit from capless guns with changeable damage types at a small damage trade off against your ôbonusedö lasers. A slight damage bonus (say 5% to med laser damage) , it would produce a slightly improved Pilgrim. It would get more damage than Pilgrim in exchange for inability to choose damage types, be less cap damaging (Pilgrim can insta-dry a HAC with 3 med neuts by the way), get cap neutralizer optimal bonus instead of bonused light drones as antifrig defence if you choose a energy neuting subsystem. So by making 2 changes - changing the parasitic energy subsystem bonus to 20% energy neut and nos optimal bonus per level and 10% energy neut and nos amount bonus - changing the cov. ops subsystem bonus to 5% med laser damage per level You would give the Amarr players 2 viable solo-PVP setups (Curse-legion, Pili-legion), which would make us all very happy pandas. Additional thoughts: I understand that giving an energy neut amount bonus instead of energy optimal was a specific decision made by game developers, because they were afraid of damage-heavy Curse becoming very imbalanced and outright overpowered. But consider this At Recons 5 a Curse, which has both cap neutralizing optimal AND cap neutralizing amount bonuses, needs 1.5 cycles of 2 medium neuts to dry a HAC. Or it can dry 2 frigs with 1 activation. Now imagine Curse-legion with cap neutralizing amount bonus of 10% per level and adding a cap optimal bonus of 20% per level. With 1 med neut we get a ship that can dry out 1 frig with 1 activation and that's it. It would be pretty harmless against cruiser-sized target's. (cont.) ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2010.05.18 14:52:00 - [175] If you want to use neuts against cruiser-sized targets (like Curse), you would need at least 3 to match Curse, which would gimp you damage (highslots) and tank (grid + cap issues) So my case is - changing the parasitic energy subsystem bonus to 20% energy neut and nos optimal bonus per level and 10% energy neut and nos amount bonus would not make Legion an overpowered solo-machine, instead giving it some reasonable solo capacity. Regards, Deli ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon
Soon Shin	Posted - 2010.05.19 06:19:00 - [176] There is no debate as to whether the legion needs fixing. The Legion needs a Fix PERIOD! Compared to the other t3 Cruisers it is simpler POOR. It will never fit a comparable gank nor a comparable tank as the other t3. For 500-600 million it makes a poor ship. I would much rather pay less than half the price for a Zealot or an Absolution. The argument that it does a slightly better job than a Zealot or an Absolution is weak. The Tengu and the Proteus Greatly Surpasses their racial tech 2's. I'm not sure about the loki since I have never flown one.
Mr Floydy	Posted - 2010.05.19 06:48:00 - [177] Recently got myself a Legion for high sec mission running and it works nicely for that - makes a nice change from flying an Abaddon too :) I'd really like a 7th turret slot added though to kick up the damage - the annoying thing is there is an unused mount on the actual model (atleast there is in my config I run with) This would solve the odd "feature" of a HAM Legion being able to do more damage laser Legion aswell as being able to choose damage type. I saw in some old forum threads that there used to be a separate laser subsystem instead of the HAM which had a tracking bonus, that would have been really nice to have and would be a good step to making up for the lack of drones. I'd love to be able to use one in PvP but it is just too much cash to risk losing when compared to some of the other T2 ships, or the Harby with its full insurance :p I've noticed a lot of people's main complaint is the low dps next to a blaster proteus - taking drones out of the equation there doesn't seem to be so much in it at all, HPL track better and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage. I'd love to see some bonuses more usefull in PvP, along with either a drone bay or a tracking bonus (perhaps instead of the cap bonus :p) /ramble
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.05.19 06:53:00 - [178] Don't obsolete my Curse! I've spent ages training for it
Ulwithy Arillious	Posted - 2010.05.19 07:52:00 - [179] I have a Tengu fitting that does 670 dps out to 114 km, while my Legion only does 545 with an optimal of 11 km, or 434 out to 34 km. Both fittings set to tank C3s. What the ****.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2010.05.19 08:02:00 - [180] Edited by: Delichon on 19/05/2010 08:02:29 Originally by: Demolishar Don't obsolete my Curse! I've spent ages training for it [Legion, Nano drone curse] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer (optimal 29.5 km) Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Hammerhead II x5 Legion that can neut up to 29 km away, has drones, has more buffer than a tripple LSE Curse, does a tiny bit more DPS (although only up close). Sucks that it needs 3 RCU T2 to do that and has no cap what so ever. ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon

TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.19 14:37:00 - [181] So nothing from ccp on this, do they just not care about the sheer awfulness of the legion or can they just not be bothered fixing it. Any input at the moment would be nice _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
sirfroggy	Posted - 2010.07.01 00:11:00 - [182] I also dont understand ccps neglect on the issue, simply put the stats just dont lie, the legion definetly needs a boost. I had always thought that ccp prided themselves on having a well balanced game, but there is just no excuse for this.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 01:10:00 - [183] You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Of course the proteus and tengu totally outshine their HAC counterparts... we are talking the deimos and cerb here. The legion being a better zealot in both short (heh) and long ranges is awesome. I agree the legion could use some dps on its covert configuration though.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:17:00 - [184] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Of course the proteus and tengu totally outshine their HAC counterparts... we are talking the deimos and cerb here. Fun fact: proteus and tengu also outshine hac counterparts of "uber" race, namely: zealot and sacrilege. Dam they are so good that they are better than fotm hac O_o. And cerb is prolly one of best hacs in game IF you know how to use it. Seems you dont. Makes most/all of your post invalid...
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.01 11:55:00 - [185] None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.07.01 12:27:00 - [186] Originally by: Headerman None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW Depends on how you want to fly it. I LOVE my loki for sure, but sometimes you'd want a proteus or tengu for the damage.... You know what you wouldn't be thinking of ? A Legion
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.01 12:34:00 - [187] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Headerman None of them are as good as a Loki with the web bonus. ACs FTW Depends on how you want to fly it. I LOVE my loki for sure, but sometimes you'd want a proteus or tengu for the damage.... You know what you wouldn't be thinking of ? A Legion Yeah some extra damage might be nice for sure. Meh legion
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 14:36:00 - [188] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Fun fact: proteus and tengu also outshine hac counterparts of "uber" race, namely: zealot and sacrilege. Dam they are so good that they are better than fotm hac O_o. And cerb is prolly one of best hacs in game IF you know how to use it. Seems you dont. Makes most/all of your post invalid... Neither fun nor a fact... total posting failure. You should get that checked. As to the legion, it is an upgrade to its race's HACS, same as the other T3 cruisers. Small tweaks to the covert subsystem yes, the rest no need.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.01 14:52:00 - [189] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar Neither fun nor a fact... total posting failure. You should get that checked. As to the legion, it is an upgrade to its race's HACS, same as the other T3 cruisers. Small tweaks to the covert subsystem yes, the rest no need. Wrong. Its a fact that tengu is much better than nighthawk and proteus is much better than astarte. Legion need much more than small tweak...
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:06:00 - [190] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar You guys are spoiled by how good the zealot (and laser ships in general) are. Lol wake up, we're in 2010 and the minmatar ships are FOTM

Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:21:00 - [191] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Wrong. Its a fact that tengu is much better than nighthawk and proteus is much better than astarte. Legion need much more than small tweak... Are you saying the legion isn't better than the absolution, when configured to boost? You can't compare proteus to the astarte anyway.. the astarte again is absolute **** (like the deimos), OF COURSE it is way better. I agree the legion needs a small tweak to its covert subsystem definately.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 16:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Lol wake up, we're in 2010 and the minmatar ships are FOTM Hehe quite right. However boosting projectiles in no way suddenly made the zealot and lasers crap. They are as good as they have ever been.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.07.01 17:21:00 - [193] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar ... I said you are wrong when you are saying deva is not stating facts /though they are not fun/ and that is fact that caldari and gallente t3s are much better than their command ships. Is legion much better than abso? No, its only advantage is cruiser sig radius and range bonus. When comparing gank/tank, legion is actually worse than abso. Can you say that about tengu and nighthawk or proteus and astarte /not to say that proteus has scram bonus/? Absolution configured to boost? Never heard about it.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 19:48:00 - [194] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 19:49:28 Exactly as above. Both prot and tengu are major boost over command ships of their respective races. Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. You tried to imply that prot and tengu are better than gall/caldari HACs because both deimos and cerb suck (also this is the part where i pointed out you have no clue - as cerb is awesome hac with quite limited role but excelling at that role). But: they are also better THAN legion in similiar job. Put pulses or rails on proteus and it will outdamage or outrange+outdamage any legion setup. Put heavies on tengu and it will outdamage and outrange any legion setup. As a result the next logical step after zealot should be proteus. Or tengu. Legion is just ship for amarr purists and thats it. Oh yea and for people who want to stay in c3 wormholes for few months (ammo use on lazors... tho you will want to get out with loot anyways). Other than that you can find plenty of ships which can double up its role or be plain better at it, namely: being covops ganker, missile spammer, short range damage dealer, long range damage dealer, hell even nosf+drones (curse). Boost abso? You mean active tank? If yes - its just few % better (33% compared to 50%) - but thats NPCing fit anyways. And only reason you would use it over battleship is c3 WH where sig matters.
Gwydion Telcontar Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.07.01 20:33:00 - [195] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. Again, the reason this is true is because the zealot is OMFG better than the deimos (diemost, remember? that isn't a cliche). The tengu and cerb is irrelevent. Maybe the tengu is way overpowered for a T3 ship? I don't know, I don't fly caldari. No way is the proteus overpowered, but yes it is definately better than the deimos... and it ****ing should be since again the deimos sucks.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:24:00 - [196] Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar Originally by: Deva Blackfire Legion is just barely better zealot (or abso with range bonu) but difference isnt that huge. Again, the reason this is true is because the zealot is OMFG better than the deimos (diemost, remember? that isn't a cliche). The tengu and cerb is irrelevent. Maybe the tengu is way overpowered for a T3 ship? I don't know, I don't fly caldari. No way is the proteus overpowered, but yes it is definately better than the deimos... and it **ing should be since again the deimos sucks. Lol it really shows you have no clue. When it comes to pvp there is ABSOLUTELY no better t3 than proteus. You try to say proteus is so good because its upgrade over deimos. And im saying PUT LEGION AND PROTEUS HEAD TO HEAD and proteus will ALWAYS be better. Understood? Or still not? Or maybe this way: put lasers on proteus and it WILL be better than legion. Put rails on proteus and try fighting against PULSE legion in PULSE range and proteus WILL be better. And in all above cases exchange "proteus" with "tengu". Result will be same - tengu will beat out of legion every time (well there are FEW cases where it wont but thats exception proving the rule). So no - they are not better because "hacs suck". They are better because they all over the legion. Or in other words: legion is so bad that it doesnt take much for other t3 to be better than it. I only dunno where loki stands in this comparison line, but as few people here (or in other threads) stated it is also better than legion in most cases. So rly stop comparing legion to zealot. I dont give ** about zealot. This is legion rebalance thread in comparison with other t3 ships not t2 or t1. Noone cares about t2 or t1. Understood again?
Noguchi Raijin Order of the Griffin	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:36:00 - [197] Originally by: Mr Floydy I've noticed a lot of people's main complaint is the low dps next to a blaster proteus - taking drones out of the equation there doesn't seem to be so much in it at all, HPL track better and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage Base tracking Heavy Neutron Blaster II - .1 rad/sec Heavy Pulse Laser II - .08125 rad/sec Dissonic Encoding Platform Subsystem Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.01 22:56:00 - [198] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 22:58:31 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/07/2010 22:56:17 Originally by: Noguchi Raijin Originally by: Mr Floydy I've noticed a lot of people's main complaint is the low dps next to a blaster proteus - taking drones out of the equation there doesn't seem to be so much in it at all, HPL track better and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage Base tracking Heavy Neutron Blaster II - .1 rad/sec Heavy Pulse Laser II - .08125 rad/sec Dissonic Encoding Platform Subsystem Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret tracking per level. Its not about tracking numbers but tracking numbers vs range. BUT people who compare that tend to forget that proteus gets scrambler range module and can pretty much reduce all tracking issues within 20km by turning off enemy MWD. As far as "and also have much nicer range than the Proteus can manage" goes - nothing stops you from putting lasers on proteus. Or rails (sure, worse tracking but you can fix it by using scrambler and keeping enemy at around 17km). Worth noting - rail proteus (hybrid armature) outdamages pulse zealot. In all ranges :) Also noone sane uses dissonic encoding. Its useless. you gain some tracking (which you dont need if you know how to fly blasterboat) but lose drones. Drones = dps and anti-frig system (+ you can hold spare ecm drones if needed).
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.03 06:40:00 - [199] Originally by: Deva Blackfire SNIP And im saying PUT LEGION AND PROTEUS HEAD TO HEAD and proteus will ALWAYS be better. Understood? Or still not? Or maybe this way: put lasers on proteus and it WILL be better than legion. Put rails on proteus and try fighting against PULSE legion in PULSE range and proteus WILL be better. And in all above cases exchange "proteus" with "tengu". Result will be same - tengu will beat ** out of legion every time (well there are FEW cases where it wont but thats exception proving the rule). So no - they are not better because "hacs suck". They are better because they all over the legion. Or in other words: legion is so bad that it doesnt take much for other t3 to be better than it. I only dunno where loki stands in this comparison line, but as few people here (or in other threads) stated it is also better than legion in most cases. So rly stop comparing legion to zealot. I dont give ** about zealot. This is legion rebalance thread in comparison with other t3 ships not t2 or t1. Noone cares about t2 or t1. Understood again? wow anger much? anyway, i tried my hand at fitting these ships and i defy you to come up with a better 100 KM sniper cruiser than the Legion [Legion, Snipe] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Sensor Booster II Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier notice no faction/deadspace/officer mods, no T2 rigs, nothing like that; it has 52,400 EHP goes 1750 m/s and does 314 DPS the proteus is the only ship that comes close with 51,500 DPS going 1,600 m/s and doing 253 DPS . . . in fact I might even take the sniper zealot over that . . . maybe . . . I guess the point is learn how to fit your ship and dont try to make it do what it isnt designed to do. Additionally, I dont see where the Tengu is that much better with assault missiles either . . . yeah, it does more damage and has a bit more range, but the legion is a bit faster, has more EHP and has full tackle as opposed to a single warp disruptor . . . I would like to see a fit that challenges the Legion with HAMs
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 10:42:00 - [200] Awesome legion. I will give you sniper cruiser that outdamages it easily: cerberus (440ish DPS up to 170km using rages). Tengu does tad more but with tad shorter range. Plus as you wanted 100km flight time of missiles becomes less of an issue. Quote: I guess the point is learn how to fit your ship and dont try to make it do what it isnt designed to do. Pretty much what you did. You took inferior 100km sniper. And in reality i wouldnt use that cerb at 100km sniperfests because battleships can easily fill that spot. As for tengu vs legion - the "bit more damage" in ham setup comes to around 250dps difference (550ish vs 800ish). Typical HAM setups for both tengu and legion: [Tengu, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Disruptor I Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile x5 Medium Core Defence Field Extender I x3 // 700dps, 124k ehp, 1287m/s [Legion, Plategank 1 (ham)] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Domination Stasis Webifier Target Painter II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile x6 Medium Trimark Armor Pump I x3 // 587dps, 119k ehp, 1380m/s. Sure legion gets full tackle but in most cases its not needed. Scrambler/disruptor alone is enough. So similiar stats but 36% (over 1/3) dps more on tengu. If i REALLY wanted to have tengu to be faster than legion i can drop 1BCU and add nano/overdrive. And ill still outdamage it and be faster. Laser legions arent stellar either. Sure you can play the "36km long range card !!!" but tengu can load javelins and hit over 40. All in all - there is no role (except PVE and 2-3 "weird" setups) where you cant find ship that outdoes legion.

Obyrith	Posted - 2010.07.03 11:32:00 - [201] Edited by: Obyrith on 03/07/2010 11:32:25 nm
Dray Caldari R U D E	Posted - 2010.07.03 12:10:00 - [202] I can fly Cal, Mini, and Gal T3 with sub skills all at 5, I didn't even bother with the Legion, there's just no point, it's sub par to the rest and it's not even open to debate, so you can buffer the living sh*t out of it, big deal you can do that with the Proteus, not as good, but near enough as to not make enough of a difference to matter. I'm not going to suggest what the fix should be, but it definitely needs something, obvious choice would be damage/turret.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.07.03 12:58:00 - [203] Give it a 50m3 drone bay on the Covert Ops sub system and 25m3 on the Laser and HAM subsystem. More DPS and versatility for those subs, making them more useful. Drone sub needs more drone bandwidth (75m3?) and a stronger drone dps/health bonus. Also, reduce the amount of mids and increase the amount of lows. It's an Amarr ship ffs, it should be more towards 7-6 lows and 3-4 mids, not 5-5.
Gligan	Posted - 2010.07.03 13:17:00 - [204] Edited by: Gligan on 03/07/2010 13:18:51 just 1 question , what happens if you get double webbed by a minmatar recon. I sure hope your 700 blaster dps can go more than 5km.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 14:00:00 - [205] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2010 14:03:45 Originally by: Gligan Edited by: Gligan on 03/07/2010 13:18:51 just 1 question , what happens if you get double webbed by a minmatar recon. I sure hope your 700 blaster dps can go more than 5km. Damn you are right. There is no point flying anything with optimal shorter than 40km. Damn you dualweb huginns ! And seriously: you shouldnt fly proteus EVER if your only plan is getting webbed by minmatar recon outside of your scram range. And in scram range (that being 21km on my prot)? Either ECM drones to break his one cycle and then burn to him/kill him or just go back to gate/whatever and jump out. Its not like minnie recon will kill passive prot faster than 5 minutes anyways. Quote: Give it a 50m3 drone bay on the Covert Ops sub system and 25m3 on the Laser and HAM subsystem. More DPS and versatility for those subs, making them more useful. Drone sub needs more drone bandwidth (75m3?) and a stronger drone dps/health bonus. Also, reduce the amount of mids and increase the amount of lows. It's an Amarr ship ffs, it should be more towards 7-6 lows and 3-4 mids, not 5-5. Pretty much this.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.03 18:35:00 - [206] Legion can be fit to make a zealot with more dps and hp plus interdiction nullifier and have the same engagement range. Like all other races it can also be made into the sniper command ship from this basic design. Just like the Loki can do the muninn and the Tengu can do the cerberus. The Proteus does a variety of other roles better than it's hac counterparts, such as better deimos, cloaky gank deimos etc. The legion also does the PVE thing quite well. Other than the SNAC setup and the PVE setup, the legion doesn't have any role that is better than it's T2 command ships and cruisers. This can be attributed, to the fact that Amarr tech 2 ships are incredible balanced and powerful. It possibly needs a small tweak, as does the Loki to some extent. The Gallente and Caldari T3 ships are perfectly balanced as they are. It does not need too much tweaking though. It's more an issue that it lacks DPS when heavily tanked. Unlike the other 3 T3 which can fit a 100k ehp tank with over 450dps.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.03 18:40:00 - [207] Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:02:00 - [208] Originally by: Sigras Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here. Zealot is considered #1 sniper hac because 99% of the players here cant understand how to fly cerberus properly - dont worry, you are in those 99%. And yes i used fury missiles, they have 170km range and 10km/s velocity. Well enough for 100+km sniping and they hit LSE hacs quite ok. So if you WOULDNT use fury missiles it means you have literally no clue how missile system works, how cerberus works and how to use it. So you should be last person making ANY comments about cerb or its comparison to gun snipers. Thank you.
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:13:00 - [209] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sigras Wow, +1 for a 100km sniper boat with 12+ second missile travel time. . . I'm sorry but there is a reason that the zealot is widely considered the #1 HAC for 100km sniping and not the Cerberus. Additionally, please tell me you don't actually use tech two missiles and you were just using them for comparison sake, if not, I think we're done here. Zealot is considered #1 sniper hac because 99% of the players here cant understand how to fly cerberus properly - dont worry, you are in those 99%. And yes i used fury missiles, they have 170km range and 10km/s velocity. Well enough for 100+km sniping and they hit LSE hacs quite ok. So if you WOULDNT use fury missiles it means you have literally no clue how missile system works, how cerberus works and how to use it. So you should be last person making ANY comments about cerb or its comparison to gun snipers. Thank you. Anyone with half a brain is not denying the Cerb is a good sniper ship. But despite it's excellent range and dps, it falls second to the muninn and zealot because those ships will hit a target say two or 3 times before a long range cerb will have hit it once. And you are right, Fury is awesome. As someone who flies the cerb I appreciate what it does. But I know that a Muninn or Zealot is superior, only because they do decent DPS/Volley damage and they hit instantly.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:22:00 - [210] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2010 19:24:32 They are not superior. Tehy are different and with different roles. Cerb should never sit at 100km range because other hacs (zealot/muminn) can hit it back. There is a reason why it can easily reach 180-220km ranges. As for zealot alpha... its pathetic at best. It is 3x lower than cerb alpha so it needs around 7,5 seconds to tie with it (or 5 seconds if you count 1st shot being at 0 seconds). Cerb catches up quite fast. Pretty much as long as you arent popping frigs/untanked cruisers (and in some cases HACs with larbe blob of zealots) cerbs will easily outrun zealots in damage dealing. Mostly because of pure DPS numbers. Still one or another, both are different. For me prefered one is cerb mostly for range flexibility (and lol-cant-touch-me vs frigs in 100km radius). Back to legion? It sucks. Even if its better zealot... ummm why would you pay 500m to sit in sniperHAC blob and die as soon as sometimes tackles/alphas you? Sniperlegion gets circa 50-60k EHP (? figures from thread, never done fits for sniper one) which means instapop vs larger blobs.

Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.03 19:33:00 - [211] Edited by: Hannibal Ord on 03/07/2010 19:34:30 SNAC legion is still better than the zealot, regardless of cost. Sometimes it's fun to fly ships that are different. But it's the only setup for PVP that actually outdoes it's counterparts.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.03 20:06:00 - [212] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Zealot is considered #1 sniper hac because 99% of the players here cant understand how to fly cerberus properly - dont worry, you are in those 99%. And yes i used fury missiles, they have 170km range and 10km/s velocity. Well enough for 100+km sniping and they hit LSE hacs quite ok. So if you WOULDNT use fury missiles it means you have literally no clue how missile system works, how cerberus works and how to use it. So you should be last person making ANY comments about cerb or its comparison to gun snipers. Thank you. First off I stand corrected about fury missiles. . . Secondly, you have to realize in a fleet of 20 sniper zealots/legions and your Cerberus, all things being equal, the zealots/legions would have laid 100,000+ damage before your first missiles hit Then even if the target survives to be hit by your missiles when it explodes, you have two volleys in the air that are wasted while the lasers wasted nothing. I agree they're different, and you suggest using them at 150, but at that range it takes 17 seconds for the missiles to hit. . . That's just about the amount of time it takes for my battleship to warp off. . . I know it isn't fair to compare gun snipers @ 100 against the Cerberus @100 but you were the one who made the comparison in the first place. Additionally when you decide to warp off, your missiles in flight do no damage after warp is initiated which means in some cases two wasted volleys Please learn the difference between on paper and in practice
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.03 20:40:00 - [213] Originally by: Sigras First off I stand corrected about fury missiles. . . Secondly, you have to realize in a fleet of 20 sniper zealots/legions and your Cerberus, all things being equal, the zealots/legions would have laid 100,000+ damage before your first missiles hit At 100km (with 10-11km/s velocity of fury/faction missiles) it takes roughly 10 seconds to hit target. This equals to 5 salvos from zealot using aurora (including one salvo at T=0). 5x20x719 = 71 900 damage. Doesnt look like 100 000+. Quote: Then even if the target survives to be hit by your missiles when it explodes, you have two volleys in the air that are wasted while the lasers wasted nothing. There is a reason why i said you are one of 99% of the people who dont understand how to fly cerb. It REALLY shows in senstence i just quoted. No i dont waste ammo, i pick correct targets. Quote: I agree they're different, and you suggest using them at 150, but at that range it takes 17 seconds for the missiles to hit. . . That's just about the amount of time it takes for my battleship to warp off. . . I know it isn't fair to compare gun snipers @ 100 against the Cerberus @100 but you were the one who made the comparison in the first place. Because battleship will see zealots hitting him and not warp off. In both cases you need enemy ship tackled to kill it unless he is either stupid or afk. Quote: Additionally when you decide to warp off, your missiles in flight do no damage after warp is initiated which means in some cases two wasted volleys There is a reason why cerbs operate at ranges of 150+. So they DO NOT have to warp off. Quote: Please learn the difference between on paper and in practice Seems you are who needs to learn. And to learn LOTS of stuff: starting from basic maths (1st quote), to target selection (2nd quote) to battlefield tactics (mostly how to keep proper distance) - 3rd quote. Plus i flown cerbs long enough to know how they work. Did you? Seems not... So as i said earlier - dont try and discuss with me things you dont have even slightest clue about.
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.04 03:31:00 - [214] Originally by: Deva Blackfire At 100km (with 10-11km/s velocity of fury/faction missiles) it takes roughly 10 seconds to hit target. This equals to 5 salvos from zealot using aurora (including one salvo at T=0). 5x20x719 = 71 900 damage. Doesnt look like 100 000+. Actually the speed on both faction and fury missiles is 8437.5 m/s which makes your flight time to 100km just under 12 seconds, assuming youre at exactly 100, you have level 5 Missile projection and youre not using hydraulic bay thrusters This, including an initial volley means 4.5 volleys before your first missile hits, rounding down to 4; my legion does 1036 damage per volley. 4103620 = 82,880 which is good enough to have destroyed most subcaps in the game. sorry about the faulty assumptions I made about my ships damage, I was VNC'ing into EFT from work on my phone. Originally by: Deva Blackfire There is a reason why i said you are one of 99% of the people who dont understand how to fly cerb. It REALLY shows in [SIC}senstence i just quoted. No i dont waste ammo, i pick correct targets. so you can perfectly predict how many volleys it takes to destroy a ship? picture this, youre shooting at a target, at any given second you have two or three full volleys of missiles in space traveling toward the target. If that target were to explode randomly all of your missiles that are currently in the air are wasted and do 0.0 damage Originally by: Deva Blackfire Because battleship will see zealots hitting him and not warp off. In both cases you need enemy ship tackled to kill it unless he is either stupid or afk. I wasnt suggesting that you actually shoot at a battleship that isnt tackled, i was just giving an illustration of how long that is. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Seems you are who needs to learn. And to learn LOTS of stuff: starting from basic maths (1st quote), to target selection (2nd quote) to battlefield tactics (mostly how to keep proper distance) - 3rd quote. Plus i flown cerbs long enough to know how they work. Did you? Seems not... 1. basic math - sorry i was at work as an accountant I couldnt devote my full energy to this argument. 2. target selection - perhaps if you had read my quote you would know the point I was making has nothing to do with target selection . . . lets see how you do this time. 3. proper distance - how do you warp into a target at 150? if you get a warp in point and have a chance to setup a perfect kill zone go for it, but my money is on practicality. additionally, its interesting to note that in my experience, the person who's losing insults their opponent, the person who's winning attacks their opponents argument.
Elldranga	Posted - 2010.07.04 05:08:00 - [215] Edited by: Elldranga on 04/07/2010 05:11:45 sniper legion. nuff said. End of argument anyone who doesn't recognize the slight increase in sniper dmg from the zealot, and the massive increase in buffer, and the medium increase in sniper range as a hugely good thing, is playing the wrong game.
Deva Blackfire LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.07.04 10:26:00 - [216] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/07/2010 10:32:39 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/07/2010 10:31:11 Originally by: Sigras Originally by: Deva Blackfire At 100km (with 10-11km/s velocity of fury/faction missiles) it takes roughly 10 seconds to hit target. This equals to 5 salvos from zealot using aurora (including one salvo at T=0). 5x20x719 = 71 900 damage. Doesnt look like 100 000+. Actually the speed on both faction and fury missiles is 8437.5 m/s which makes your flight time to 100km just under 12 seconds, assuming youre at exactly 100, you have level 5 Missile projection and youre not using hydraulic bay thrusters Why do you assume i dont use them? Oh yea - because youve never flown cerb... Quote: This, including an initial volley means 4.5 volleys before your first missile hits, rounding down to 4; my legion does 1036 damage per volley. 4103620 = 82,880 which is good enough to have destroyed most subcaps in the game. Which is still under 100k and barely over 72k from zealot. Poor improvement for 5x the cost. Quote: so you can perfectly predict how many volleys it takes to destroy a ship? picture this, youre shooting at a target, at any given second you have two or three full volleys of missiles in space traveling toward the target. If that target were to explode randomly all of your missiles that are currently in the air are wasted and do 0.0 damage I CBA to explain in YET ANOTHER thread how to fly cerb. Search for my previous posts on the issue, maybe you will understand how wrong you are. But you dont understand how to pick target which isnt rly my problem. Quote: I wasnt suggesting that you actually shoot at a battleship that isnt tackled, i was just giving an illustration of how long that is. This doesnt ilustrate anything as battleships can warp off in between 6seconds and 30 seconds dependant on their type, fit, gang, MWD on or off etc. Quote: 3. proper distance - how do you warp into a target at 150? if you get a warp in point and have a chance to setup a perfect kill zone go for it, but my money is on practicality. Seriously? If your gang warps at 100 is it that hard to warp at 50 or 100 to your gang? Create midwarp spots to shorten warp times for subsequent engagements? Do i really have to teach people basics of this game? I have one question: have you EVER flown cerb? Even once? Quote: anyone who doesn't recognize the slight increase in sniper dmg from the zealot, and the massive increase in buffer, and the medium increase in sniper range as a hugely good thing, is playing the wrong game. Oh i guess anyone does recognise that. But for ship that has (atm) 4x4x4x4x4 possible setups having only 1 role that works in pvp is kinda... stupid? sad? And thats the issue most of people here have with legion. It is fairly limited in its roles compared to all othet t3.
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.07.04 13:55:00 - [217] Edited by: VanNostrum on 04/07/2010 13:55:47 yes, Legion kinda blows compared to other T3
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Aureus Mashtori Auxilia	Posted - 2010.07.04 14:18:00 - [218] The only Legion I ever really liked was a Dual Prop plated HAM legion. Now it had one of the meanest buffer tanks I have ever seen, its dps was ten different shades of S* and the tackle range was nothing above par. So, it was just a really heavy SAC with less DPS. All the other configurations I have used either felt flimsy, underpowered, slow or just wrong in ways that it really shouldn't be. A look from CCP at it again would definately be worth the time spent. Originally by:** Solen Sean Innocence proves nothing
Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.04 21:05:00 - [219] Originally by: Elldranga Edited by: Elldranga on 04/07/2010 05:11:45 sniper legion. nuff said. End of argument anyone who doesn't recognize the slight increase in sniper dmg from the zealot, and the massive increase in buffer, and the medium increase in sniper range as a hugely good thing, is playing the wrong game. This. It is better than the sniper zealot. We aren't really talking about costs to be honest. Improvement is improvement. And not only that, you can make that sniper legion bubble immune.
Acru Si	Posted - 2010.07.05 06:04:00 - [220] Originally by: Hannibal Ord sniper legion. nuff said. End of argument anyone who doesn't recognize the slight increase in sniper dmg from the zealot, and the massive increase in buffer, and the medium increase in sniper range as a hugely good thing, is playing the wrong game. .... This. It is better than the sniper zealot. We aren't really talking about costs to be honest. Improvement is improvement. And not only that, you can make that sniper legion bubble immune. Only problem is that Loki and Proteus can do comparable sniper fits and still have all their advantages on other configurations/roles.

Dodgy Past Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.07.05 14:34:00 - [221] It would be nice to see them revisited. Having started using one I often out DPS the Proteus due to the range, but at the same time I don't have any other nice benefits like the scram range bonus. Neut legion has it's place though is massively situational. The configuration I use does have pretty decent sensor strength as well which makes it a lot harder to jam than most, and also better than average scan res. You may not notice those in EFT but they do make a difference in an actual fight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.08 10:47:00 - [222] Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 08/07/2010 10:47:34 Missile ships are terrible sniper ships, dear god that is how easy it is. Hence why no self-respecting null sec alliance reimburses missile fleet bs. And yes, ccp really needs to revisit the legion. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Salvia Olima The All-Seeing Eye Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:44:00 - [223] It could be easy to make it better: Legion just needs an 50m3 dronebay and enough bandwidth for 5x medium drones, and a dmg+range+speed bonus for them at hull level, so it would be independent from subsystems. Right now with a laser setup it sucks just like the Zealot, even a T1 frigate can tackle it, which is a huge hole in its defense. Just my two cents.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:05:00 - [224] Screw T3's and fix Field command ships. Orca Pilot Sale
Royaldo Gallente Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.	Posted - 2010.07.09 07:25:00 - [225] go deva and istvaan the legion is quite horrible boost it
Backho	Posted - 2010.07.09 11:23:00 - [226] Hello. I can pilot this ship I love to fit my ship in a suboptimal way. I also love to fit my ship like a tengu. as long as tengu is better then me I also love to fit my ship to mimic the proteus. As long as the proteus is better then me I also love to fit my ship to copy the zealot. As long as the zealot is better then me. And because every time i fit this ship to mimic some other ship, that ship will do it better. Therefore legion is underpowered. sigh
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2010.07.11 09:48:00 - [227] Originally by: Backho Hello. I can pilot this ship I love to fit my ship in a suboptimal way. I also love to fit my ship like a tengu. as long as tengu is better then me I also love to fit my ship to mimic the proteus. As long as the proteus is better then me I also love to fit my ship to copy the zealot. As long as the zealot is better then me. And because every time i fit this ship to mimic some other ship, that ship will do it better. Therefore legion is underpowered. sigh Do share your great fit for it then
Dodgy Past Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:52:00 - [228] I would share my fit, but then I'd have to kill you ;) Just the tiniest amount extra PG so you could do a full slave set, 1600 plate, MWD and full rack of heavies pulses for an all V character would be nice. Still 593 DPS + over 158k EHP or 621 DPS + 119k EHP ( LG slaves, AY-1, G2-Gamma, G1-Delta, ZET500 ) are pretty respectable, especially with MWD + 3 mids. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
CherniyVolk Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:41:00 - [229] Edited by: CherniyVolk on 12/07/2010 05:41:17 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 13/01/2010 04:31:20 I'm sure a handful will disagree, but who cares. Comparing the Legion's damage output to that of a Proteus is a telling indicator First off, NONE of the Amarr ships were ever supposed to come close to Gallente DPS. The only reason it is currently is because CCP has made Lasers overpowered. Ridiculously overpowered. You want a seventh turret slot? You are doing something wrong, because just three of your lasers out DPS all six of my Neutron blasters. CCP gave the zealot an extra turret slot, and gave lasers a tracking bonus. Not to mention CCPs stupid idea of lowering all armor vessels EM resistance by 10%!!!! It's infuriating how stupid the DPS from lasers are!! I'm in a Proteus, T3, 86 EM resist and 86 Thermal resists, was getting hit by Tech ONE BEAM lasers and it was as though I hadn't fit a tank period. The shots were insane completely ******ed; T2 blasters with faction ammo doesn't even hit minmatar ships as hard. Crying about low DPS for lasers makes me sick. And trying to compare DPS to the Proteus. The Proteus can't DPS for flip. You want DPS, look at the stupid range and DPS that is coming out of some of these Tengus in 0.0.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.07.12 06:36:00 - [230] Originally by: CherniyVolk Edited by: CherniyVolk on 12/07/2010 05:41:17 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 13/01/2010 04:31:20 I'm sure a handful will disagree, but who cares. Comparing the Legion's damage output to that of a Proteus is a telling indicator First off, NONE of the Amarr ships were ever supposed to come close to Gallente DPS. The only reason it is currently is because CCP has made Lasers overpowered. Ridiculously overpowered. You want a seventh turret slot? You are doing something wrong, because just three of your lasers out DPS all six of my Neutron blasters. CCP gave the zealot an extra turret slot, and gave lasers a tracking bonus. Not to mention CCPs stupid idea of lowering all armor vessels EM resistance by 10%!!!! It's infuriating how stupid the DPS from lasers are!! I'm in a Proteus, T3, 86 EM resist and 86 Thermal resists, was getting hit by Tech ONE BEAM lasers and it was as though I hadn't fit a tank period. The shots were insane completely ******ed; T2 blasters with faction ammo doesn't even hit minmatar ships as hard. Crying about low DPS for lasers makes me sick. And trying to compare DPS to the Proteus. The Proteus can't DPS for flip. You want DPS, look at the stupid range and DPS that is coming out of some of these Tengus in 0.0. Your not very good at this whole trolling thing, are you?

Darlene Madison	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:38:00 - [231] Bump, for great justice.
Nimbati	Posted - 2010.07.14 11:53:00 - [232] Atleast it looks good.
The Religion	Posted - 2010.07.22 10:52:00 - [233] Most people here seem to live under the impression that T3 should outperform T2 cruiser-sized ships. The point of a T3 is that theyre able to do a variety of things, but shouldnt necessarily do it better than their T2 brothers and sisters. I have spoken, flame away for I care not. Amen.
The Religion	Posted - 2010.07.22 10:58:00 - [234] Edited by: The Religion on 22/07/2010 10:59:40 Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 01/02/2010 17:27:20 Originally by: Mr McFail Edited by: Mr McFail on 01/02/2010 17:17:41 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Mr McFail Cry some more, please learn how to fly the Legion before you go into a hissy fit. so you want to share your fit or is it too much of a secret? http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4090/legionnewsetup1.jpg And for a cruiser class ship, I find that DPS more than acceptable, I don't expect a cruiser class ship to be throwing around much more dps than a higher class ship such as a battlecruiser even if it is t3. Oh and it's still capable of tanking over 650DPS with t1 rigs and the plex repper or over 600dps with t2 rigs and a standard t2 med repper, finally you can swap 2 of those lazy EANM's for hardeners to get a boost to the resists you need, it's still cap stable doing it. and we welcome Mr. Heavy Neut. And how does a Proteus counter mr. Heavy neut, mr. Clever? or any of the other T3's? Fact is, if ANY of the T3's can hold their own versus a Heavy neut is most definately the Legion. Surely they'll all weep sooner or later, but the Legion can say later more easily than sooner. Legion advantages are awesome cap management, impressive tank, the commonly shared cloak/Probe option, and decent DPS for something cruiser sized.
Zulf BesGUowy	Posted - 2010.07.23 13:40:00 - [235] Edited by: Zulf BesGUowy on 23/07/2010 13:45:40 Signed legion suck... I have legion - 13mil sp in gunery on main...would be nice if all t3 get basic drone bay 25 m3 when i swish to drone subsystem i lose all my sp in gunery, legion suck...And drain cap subsystem fail better cheap curse or pilgrim...Realy worth 500-600m ?... ;/ maybe only for pve...
Cosmic Rainbow	Posted - 2010.07.23 14:17:00 - [236] Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 23/07/2010 14:18:45 Confirming the Legion sucks. Its kinda my lolprober now, that's all it gets used for tbh. I wonder if the whole mythical "5th subsystem" would correct this problem for the Legion? Or just exacerbate the situation. Of course the Tech 3 5th subsystem is much like a Unicorn or a Yeti. CCP swears it exist(ed), and it will come, but no one has seen it, nor will anyone see it. Anyhoo - if you stick with EVE, then you'll have to wait 2 years to maybe get a fix for it, and maybe get a 5th subsystem as was originally planned, because its possible that CCP might look at re-balancing some of these ships in a potential future analysis of their current state.. maybe. Its possible. Its also possible death rays from mars would have an accidental side effect of fixing the balance issues rampant in EVE, including the Legion. Edit: for more sarcasm. Didnt think there was enough in there.
Telvani	Posted - 2010.08.05 15:57:00 - [237] Also comfirming the legion sucks, High sec exploration its ok for, the second you try and fit a cloak you get gimped hard, I tried to make a fit for 0.0 exploration, the pilgrim beats it for much less cost. With 4 unbonused lasers you struggle to get 200 dps, the pilgrim gets 240 straight of from drones, and has better utility for radars. CCP please buff the legion.
Justin Cody Caldari Apocalypse Enterprises Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:04:00 - [238] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 11/01/2010 02:31:26 It's funny how 90% of the posts about the Legion on these forums are about how much it sucks - yet whenever I post a boost thread about it, people come crawling out of the woodwork to tell me that I suck at fitting. Except the problem is, when I apply that same fitting suckage to the Proteus or Tengu, both of which I fly, I come up with ships that are FAR FAR BETTER than the Legion. Look guys. I know you want to prove how badass you are at PVP, and how much I suck at PVP. But all I'm trying to do is slightly boost an anemic ship. If you're so awesome at flying Legions, wouldn't you be happier if they got beefed up? I don't entirely disagree with you Istvaan, but don't forget with decent skills you can overheat for FAR longer than any comparable cruiser or HAC. Thats another 15% damage or so. Now the real gripe I see is that the ships aren't balanced against eachother for identical roles. Suck...it...up. You can get approx 4300 scan res on a loki and legion, but not ont he proteus or the tengu. OMG NERF THE SCAN RES! No just adapt your tactics or train skills for the proteus or tengu. I'll bet you already have. The legion is a great ship if you use it differently from a tengu or proteus or even a loki. You can be a nice heavy tackler in a way the tengu and prot can't. DON'T FACE HUMP Anyway, here's a list of fixes I'd like to see: Liquid crystal magnifiers - One more turret. The Legion model has an extra un-used turret hardpoint in this configuration, so adding it would be elementary. Alternately, the engineering subsystem that currently gives +1 turret could be boosted to give +2 instead. This thing's meant to be a gunboat, let's let it actually outgun a Harbinger. Energy parasitic thing - 20% per level range bonus to nos/neut. Sensor strength increased to 18 or so. Covert offensive module - Replace turret cap use bonus with dmg bonus. Drone synthesis projector - Drone damage bonus increased to 12.5/15%. It can only field a full wing of mediums to the Proteus' heavies, they might as well get a bit of a buff. Finally, an aesthetic change: The "Baby Avatar" subsystem is totally wasted on the crappy probing sub. I recommend switching its model with the dissolution sequencer, because it makes my Legion look like a stupid snowmobile. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
RentableMuffin	Posted - 2010.08.10 04:19:00 - [239] so is the legion good yet?
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:17:00 - [240] Yes? Also, the loki sucks ass too, right? Since ccp has'nt changed anything, with regards to the legion, since its introduction. Im guessing, its the same crap-ship it always was and possibly; how you fit a ship, also may determin its use (You know, whether its crap or not). -Stop bringing back dead threads

Jita mcheck	Posted - 2010.09.21 21:20:00 - [241] I am having a real hard time getting a fit to work for this ship that the Tengu does not out perform. I really want to have a turret based lazer gunboat with the manouverability of a cruiser but so far the legion is behind in every way. I just need more dmg or more utility out of it. Training cald... cruiser atm..Based on how long something like rockets takes to get fixed I don't hold much hope for the legion getting any tweeks.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.21 22:45:00 - [242] People are just stupid and dont know how to use them, but they are very effective ships when used right. In Sniper Hac Gangs with solid Logi Support they are lethal, 40 DPS more than Zealot but 5x the tank using only a 800mm plate and 600 m/s using a AB so hitting it using a BS is very challenging and requires alot of support. In spite of all that the people who think the Legion should be as good at all the other Amarr ships roles need to be on medication...Really? The All round Best Race in the game needs the best T3 as well? Best BS`s by far Best Sniper in Apoc RR Brawler in Geddon, Logi Supported Beast in ABBY, Best Sniper Hac in Zealot, Best Logi in Gaurdian [because Arm is so good in fleets], Great Recons in Curse, Best Carrier by far Archon, Best Mothership Aeon, Best Dread in Rev most usable Command Ships in PVP by far either Damnation or Abso, Best or tied Faction BS in the NM and Bhaal, Best Ammo selection Bar none Scorch anyone? Come on guys its time to get used to not totally Owning a Class of ships. If Legion was the best why train any other Race in groups of 8 or more? When used as a super Zealot its insane how well it does, and as stated If ever jumped in Hac Gang Bubbles can not worry you while your buddies in Hacs try and escape. Amarr guys are spoiled in the way that they have the choice of almost best ships in each class, so they expect there T3 to be that way. But when used right is a great ship thats made to be the best when with other ships, Amarr isnt the solo Race. All in all the ship is way better than what the whiners say about it, while not the best T3 its def not worthless by any stretch and besides with the Best Hac/Combat Recon/Command ship You should be lucky to be able to spend less and fill a role, as Caldari all they really have is 1 great BC 2 Great Recons all which Die very fast and 1 Great T3. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Ugly Eric	Posted - 2010.09.22 00:25:00 - [243] Edited by: Ugly Eric on 22/09/2010 00:27:56 Didn't read the whole topic, so sorry if saying something already said. ---- WalloText Alert ---- In my eyes there are few things that ppl tend to forget when wanting to balance things up. The first is, that I believe that in EvE all the certain hulled hips aren't ment to be balanced. I'm talking about, who would choose a Minmatar bs to RR gang, if having skills to Amarr, or who would choose to fly ant other race than caldari (gallente in few occations) if PvE is your thing. Who would actually want to use any other ships in solo max cruiser sized PvP than minmatar or few gallente ships if you can choose one of them? The races are pretty balanced as whole. In ideal situation on character should always be specced to all races, but only for certain ships per race. The second thin is, that in the case of t3 ships balancing (these needs to be tweaked here and there, I agree on that) is the same as on BOBS. Ppl complain how they can't get the t3 ships to do the same things as the t2 variant of t3 ship. It's not ment to do that. It's ment to do multiple roles at once. I have no first hand experience in any other t3 than Loki, but it really is great when fitting it to combine vagabond and a rapier. It's not as fast as the vaga, and it doesn't web as far as the Rapier, but it does them both + deacent tank compared to the t2 variants. You can make t3 hulls to cov ops cloak and be a fast and sturdy tackler with deacent tank. Thats three ships in t2 variants. And to the sake of bringing up BOBS, they are ment to do wery specific task. Give them any love, and they are overpowered. They really kick ass, if used correctly. Tengu and proteus are the ones that actually needs to be nerfed, not the legion and/or Loki to be buffed. Tengu outperforms Cerberus and Nighthawk in almost all aspects. Proteus does the same with Deimos. Only that proteus has a nice recon bonus, where the Tengu has pretty lame recon bonuses. And to the Legions recon bonus. Its not that bad. You just need to pick your targets. Two med neuts with those bonuses actually hurts pretty damned much in any sub capital ship. Its not as powerful as pilgrims is, but Legion still has tank on it pretty much more than the Pilgrim. I do not say that the ships are perfect, or that nothing needs to be done. I'm saying that look at a bigger picture. It balances things up pretty nicely. Tengu had some extralove from CCP, but that's how it seems to be in this game altogether. Why fly any other BC hull than the Drake? Its good PvE, its good PvP, it's cheap, and in soolo 1v1 situations it kills any other BC hull if it is fitted correctly. Sorry for bad english and the textwall :) Ugly Eric
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.09.22 03:18:00 - [244] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 22/09/2010 03:19:01 Wow, good to see my whine thread is still alive. edit: Since January, it would seem.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.22 06:05:00 - [245] Edited by: Kail Storm on 22/09/2010 06:11:32 Lastly I forgot to explain how much better the Legion is than the Zealot in Hac Gangs, Its resists are amazing for Logi`s to make there cycles count very well while still having 100k Buffer literally 5x the Zealots, I have lost zealots where other gangs where targeting me and my Logi did such good jobs I survived for 2-3 mins teetering back and fourth, if I was in a AB Legion there is no way the enemy Gang could have goten me with my 4-5 Guardians Repping me they would have given up but I would have tipped the scales our way by soaking DPS. Also what people forget is Jamming Str is Huge in the "new age" Armor Hac Gangs, since its no longr 120k but 65-85km Fighting where Falcons are very effective, with a Multispec Jammer on the Zealot I get a 63% Chance to Jamm with Myskills and Rook setup, with the Legion I get a 23% Chance...This a huge thing, to whoever has been on proper Hac Gangs you guys know this 1 Falcon will put 5 Multispecs 3 on logi to break up a cluster and 2 On Dmg Dealers. If I had alot of ISK in game I would fly nothing but Hac Style Legions in my Armor Gangs and have a 5x Chance of surviving if the enemy brackets us. Also to the guy above saying the Tengu and Prot need a Nerf, For the love of god NO, Cald doesnt have a Stud Ship in its lineup Minus the Drake and Rook that arent pure support ships. Cerb=Anti Support Eagle=Subpar Falcon=Needs Gang/Fleet Scorp=Gang/Fleet/Death Trap. Raven=Needs Support to be fully functioning. All our Ships except 2 are dependent on others and really cant evn be used without 5 guys+, Give Cald the 1 Nice ship group in the Drake and Tengu, otherwise Cald wouldnt even be in PVP. The Legion is better than the Zealot at both Brawlig and Sniping, Its also better than the Sac at Ham throwing Brawler. The only one its not better than is the Curse, but guess wht the Tengu isnt better than the Rook at Jamming, so the Idea that the Tengu is better than all the other ships isnt true its just Cld ships are broken in the Cruiser area bigtime. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.22 11:44:00 - [246] Originally by: Kail Storm The Legion is better than the Zealot at both Brawlig and Sniping, Its also better than the Sac at Ham throwing Brawler. The only one its not better than is the Curse, but guess wht the Tengu isnt better than the Rook at Jamming, so the Idea that the Tengu is better than all the other ships isnt true its just Cld ships are broken in the Cruiser area bigtime. It is better than the zealot, I'll give you that. Being a smidge better than a sac doesn't count for anything, since a drake is a zillion times better. 50% stronger neuts =/= long-range webs or long-range points. Proteus and loki don't need to sacrifice slots to use the tackle subsystems, legion has to sacrifice tank/gank/mids to get utility highs to use the bonus. It would have been really nice to have some configuration that made it into a good solo boat, something that compares to the other three strategic cruisers.
Mr Floydy The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.22 13:53:00 - [247] I've used the legion a lot more since I first saw this thread. Seeing all the suggestions combined with my own experiences clearly show that most people just expect too much. Personally I think its a very strong ship with maybe 2 flaws; 1)Cloaky sub needs a damage/rof bonus like every other cloaky T3 2)Slot layout is a bit of a pain at times - usually end up with too many mid slots. Still - my favourite ship :)
Telvani	Posted - 2010.09.22 14:21:00 - [248] For exploration the prot and tengu can both fit cov ops, probes and interdiction nullifiers and still perform in PVE. The legion is gimped hard when fitting these together and outputs pathetic DPS. Slot layouts on the subsystems need to be looked at, especially cov ops which needs a damage bonus and possible slot tweak.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.22 20:09:00 - [249] Originally by: Templar Dane Originally by: Kail Storm The Legion is better than the Zealot at both Brawlig and Sniping, Its also better than the Sac at Ham throwing Brawler. The only one its not better than is the Curse, but guess wht the Tengu isnt better than the Rook at Jamming, so the Idea that the Tengu is better than all the other ships isnt true its just Cld ships are broken in the Cruiser area bigtime. It is better than the zealot, I'll give you that. Being a smidge better than a sac doesn't count for anything, since a drake is a zillion times better. 50% stronger neuts =/= long-range webs or long-range points. Proteus and loki don't need to sacrifice slots to use the tackle subsystems, legion has to sacrifice tank/gank/mids to get utility highs to use the bonus. It would have been really nice to have some configuration that made it into a good solo boat, something that compares to the other three strategic cruisers. Actually the Loki`s Web/Immobility Drivers Version leaves you with a pathetically small amount of Midslots, so it forces you to Armor tank which negates the speed you have. Its not just the legion alone, the Tengu has a pathetic attempt to be an ECM Boat. Prot is the one that thrives with the long point very well. Also its not a little better than Sac, but alot better its only a little better on DPS but again the Tank is wicked. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.