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MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I made 10s of Billions of isk by taking nearly a Trillion isk worth of Battleships and committing suicide by Concord in the Tennen system. You can see the 2-3 months of increased losses in one of the Economic newsletters since my losses counted as player losses :)
This is the exact same thing the Gooons were doing, they were taking advantage of CCP sucking at pricing things properly. In both cases it was due to CCP trying to force everyone to use a certain price and at the same time CCP was entering the market as an NPC with a bottomless wallet. Why can't CCP just stop with all this crap where they use their infinite money supply as part of a broken game mechanic.
I do not see how what the Goons did is an exploit, and what I did is not. I even asked the GMs before doing massive insurance fraud and they were kind of annoyed I would even bother to ask about something so obviously allowed.
Does anyone see something I am missing?
Is EvE a different game now where this kind of "winning" the game is no longer tolerated? |

Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
403
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
EVERYBODY KNOWS |

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
318
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
I heard your Doucheswarm application will be processed next week.
....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced. |

Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times!
For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his    |

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2443
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
No. It used to be like that, because the value of minerals dropped too low. Insurance cost at the time was based on ancient mineral values and that difference between the values made building ships for self destruction profitable. This was stupid, so CCP fixed it. |

Nyreanya
Serenity Labs New Eden Research.
236
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote:Does anyone see something I am missing? Insurance fraud made a handful of people a handful of ISK. LP manipulation made a smaller handful of people huge mountains of ISK. Both have now been fixed...what's the big deal?
Not everyone thinks the same way you do. This doesn't automatically make them wrong. |

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times! For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his   
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf Page 35 and 36 (on page 36 look at how The Citadel has the most losses) Here is my add for minerals: http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/classifieds/index.php?id=magic
I had 40 manufacturing slots at the time and kept them building 24/7 for months, along with multiple alts to do the ship destruction and salvaging.
I hope to do this again some day, even if I don't make too much isk. |

Ghost Xray
Hedion University Amarr Empire
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:50:00 -
[8] - Quote

You should turn yourself into the proper authorities. And by that, I mean biomass all of your characters.
Is this the attention you wanted? |

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1452
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
I just want to let you know... IBTL. |

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
586
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit? |

Fix Lag
305
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit?
Who said it was? |

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2443
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times! For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdfPage 35 and 36 (on page 36 look at how The Citadel has the most losses) Here is my add for minerals: http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/classifieds/index.php?id=magicI had 40 manufacturing slots at the time and kept them building 24/7 for months, along with multiple alts to do the ship destruction and salvaging. I hope to do this again some day, even if I don't make too much isk.
The reason why many people weren't that upset about it was, that it wasn't that competative way to earn money compared to the effort it took. Mostly it just ensured, that it was a bad idea to sell your ships, since it was more efficient to just destroy them yourself instead of letting them rot on the market or play the 0.1 isk games. I did it a few times and calculated what I'd earn, if I did it on a constant basis. It would have been far less then in normal gameplay, required a lot of managing to do on that scale and was extremely boring to do. It was propably a great thing for a dedicated producer with alts, but for the majority it was a meh income source at best.
|

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 18:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit? Who said it was?
I did. Maybe we should look at some definitions. The one below is from wikipedia. And just to clarify, banhammer or confiscation etc. does not define an exploit.
Quote:An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to oneGÇÖs own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behaviour to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerised). |

Tear Miner
Republic University Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
u mad bro?
It's an exploit, get over it and go do something productive. |

Fix Lag
305
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Fix Lag wrote:Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit? Who said it was? I did. Maybe we should look at some definitions. The one below is from wikipedai. And just to clarify, banhammer or confiscation etc. does not define an exploit. Quote:An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to oneGÇÖs own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behaviour to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerised).
I guess we should just ban unanticipated behavior and making money in Eve. Clearly doing any of that is an illegal exploit.
CCP did not determine insurance fraud an exploit, ever, as they never banned, removed assets from, or otherwise punished individuals who profited on a vast scale from the insurance mechanic. They never said it was an exploit, in any way, shape, or form. Therefore, it was not an exploit. |

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tear Miner wrote:u mad bro?
It's an exploit, get over it and go do something productive.
Why would I do something productive when I can do something destructive?
|

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit?
CCP said so when I asked :)
Learn to read! |

Fix Lag
305
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote:Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit? CCP said so when I asked :) Learn to read!
That's funny, I don't recall them taking your stuff over it. Also, please dig up where they called it an illegal, punishable exploit. |

Fix Lag
305
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Also I don't believe you as the person who actually made billions of ISK from this got banned for RMT several months afterwards but let's continue the exercise for the sake of posterity |

Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times! For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdfPage 35 and 36 (on page 36 look at how The Citadel has the most losses) Here is my add for minerals: http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/classifieds/index.php?id=magicI had 40 manufacturing slots at the time and kept them building 24/7 for months, along with multiple alts to do the ship destruction and salvaging. I hope to do this again some day, even if I don't make too much isk.
Well the    done. You made a small amount of ISK and the fact that you went into it with 40 manufacturing slots working 24/7 demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that you are a complete **** moron! |

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Lexmana wrote:Fix Lag wrote:Lexmana wrote:Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit? Who said it was? I did. Maybe we should look at some definitions. The one below is from wikipedai. And just to clarify, banhammer or confiscation etc. does not define an exploit. Quote:An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to oneGÇÖs own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behaviour to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerised). I guess we should just ban unanticipated behavior and making money in Eve. Clearly doing any of that is an illegal exploit.CCP did not determine insurance fraud an exploit, ever, as they never banned, removed assets from, or otherwise punished individuals who profited on a vast scale from the insurance mechanic. They never said it was an exploit, in any way, shape, or form. Therefore, it was not an exploit.
So, you have your own definition of exploit then? Because your definition does not seem to be compatible with wikipedias.
As I already said above, you don't have to ban players for using an exploit. It can sometimes be tolerated for various reasons. But lets call things for what they are. |

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:MagicAcid wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Simetraz wrote:So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it. You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?
He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times! For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdfPage 35 and 36 (on page 36 look at how The Citadel has the most losses) Here is my add for minerals: http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/classifieds/index.php?id=magicI had 40 manufacturing slots at the time and kept them building 24/7 for months, along with multiple alts to do the ship destruction and salvaging. I hope to do this again some day, even if I don't make too much isk. Well the     done. You made a small amount of ISK and the fact that you went into it with 40 manufacturing slots working 24/7 demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that you are a complete **** moron!
I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.
|

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote: I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.
That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think? |

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:MagicAcid wrote: I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.
That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think?
Not really since I did nothing outside the design of the system. If I found a way to make the feature not work as intended, like some way to collect the insurance money without losing the ship, or insure multiple ships at once, or insure a ship for free... it would be an exploit, but doing exactly what CCP intended, just on a larger scale is not.
|

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Seems I quoted the wrong page in wikipedia before. There are several definitions. One is related to computer security and another to video gaming and it is quoted below:
Quote:An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] |

AureoBroker
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
51
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Insurance "fraud" had a cap.
In the same way, this would not be a problem if just freighters of minerals were bombed. |

Lexmana
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
587
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
MagicAcid wrote:Lexmana wrote:MagicAcid wrote: I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.
That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think? Not really since I did nothing outside the design of the system. If I found a way to make the feature not work as intended, like some way to collect the insurance money without losing the ship, or insure multiple ships at once, or insure a ship for free... it would be an exploit, but doing exactly what CCP intended, just on a larger scale is not. So you mean CCP intended for insurance to pay more than the ship was worth? Why did they patch it then?
|

Fix Lag
305
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm gonna walk through what they did, step by step, and you tell me where the exploit occurs.
1. They loaded expensive stuff into freighters. Was this the exploit? 2. They shot said freighters with FW alts, and were rewarded with LP. Was this the exploit? 3. They upgraded FW systems. Was this the exploit? 4. They bought half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit? 5. They blew up half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit? 6. They bought a bunch of horribly worthless FW-reward implants. Was this the exploit? 7. They traded the FW-reward implants among themselves. Was this the exploit? 8. They waited for the price to be updated by CCP. Was this the exploit? 9. They then blew up said implants. Was this the exploit?
I'd like you to point out the part where it was an exploit. Was it buying things on the market? Was it blowing things up? Was it selling things on the market? Was it upgrading FW systems?
Please, tell me which part of this was not allowed. |

Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Insurance fraud probably was an exploit in the sense that a flawed game mechanic was abused in an obviously unintended way.
However,
* it didn't affect one of the flagship features of CCP's most recent expansion
* the impact on the market (increasing demand for minerals) may have been considered beneficial by some; there was considerable uncertainty how far mineral prices would drop (and what this would do to mining) without it
* it created a price floor that was hit after a "natural" decline of mineral prices, not a price ceiling that is only 5-10% of the current market price pre-exploit.
* tutorials and detailed guides on insurance frauds were published early on - leading to massive use of the exploit by a many of players
* the scale of organized insurance fraud by single players was not widely advertised outside of trade channels, people didn't brag about their profits (discussion was centered around ways to make the fraud more efficient - using station guns instead of self destruct, salvaging the wrecks, ...). |

MagicAcid
Star Frontiers Unlimited
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
I hope they explain their reasoning, I have been busy with work so I have not had the time to pull off something similar to this again, but I am not short on opportunities.
Anyways if they BAN those goons or remove their assets it will set a precedent that will make the next time this happens 1000 times worse and a rollback will be required to fix it. The goons were extremely nice and didn't decide to create unlimited CNR and self destruct for insurance on a massive scale and then ruin all the markets in a way that cannot be repaired without a rollback on a Friday evening so CCP wouldn't have the resources ready to deal with it (or ruin the weekends for several CCP employes and customers) Also its not even an Exploit of game mechanics, its just **** poor design and the people responsible need to be sacked or have some other punishment.
If I was CCP I would have a conversation with these 5 people and ask them what they want in exchange for the LP and isk, something along the lines of a permanent monument to them in the game or renaming a few systems would make me happy. |
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