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Anyone wish there was more opportunities for good old dogfights?

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Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Foraven on 21/01/2010 21:53:25 Well, i admit, most of my combat experience in this game is PVE. In missions it's quite possible to close in and hammer enemies close range while dodging long range enemy fire. But it doesn't seem so in PVP since in small engagements most pilots are likely to have webbers equiped, preventing to effectively speed tank/stay at close range. In larger fleets, short ranged ships tend to blow up before they get close enough to do anything. Sure, it can still be done but with a lot of "ifs"... Also, with the state of things in EVE, whatever you can do up close you can also do it, if not better, from medium/long range. Well, i post this because i have been trying my blaster boat Incursus frigate in (low level) missions and thinking how nice it would be to do the same against real opposition... Well, i guess i can keep dreaming.
GavinGoodrich Ungrouped Guns	Posted - 2010.01.21 23:18:00 - [2] Sounds like Red vs. Blue would be right up your alley. \o
Equus Red Federation	Posted - 2010.01.21 23:45:00 - [3] I am pretty sure you are allowed webs in RvB just not ECM. ...
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.22 01:10:00 - [4] Originally by: GavinGoodrich Sounds like Red vs. Blue would be right up your alley. Been there, and probably will go back. But they use webs so it just kill dogfights because it's "get close enough to web and scramble" and kill them. I don't want to use webs, nor want someone else to use them on me.
Anura Deteis	Posted - 2010.01.22 06:40:00 - [5] There is no such thing in pvp as getting up close and personal and speed tanking at the same time unless your target is clueless. You will be webbed, you will be scrammed so if you want to fight at close range you better be prepared for it and have enough dps to finish your target before his friends get in range. The best way to dogfight is to stay out of web and scram range - you can effectively take on larger groups of enemies in the right ship if you know what you're doing but if you have poor situational awareness you will die in a fire. If you want risk free combat, stick to shooting NPC's.
Concubinia Scarlett	Posted - 2010.01.22 10:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Foraven Been there, and probably will go back. But they use webs so it just kill dogfights because it's "get close enough to web and scramble" and kill them. I don't want to use webs, nor want someone else to use them on me. Afraid it doesn't work like that. Unless you have a pre-arranged fight with pre-arranged fits between yourself and a friend the chances of the other person using a web are very high, especialy in 'dogfighting' ships, as in solo pvp range dictation is the key to victory 99% of the time. As an example, if you have a rifter against an incursus, both fit in a similar (and popular) way with an AB, armour buffer and T2 guns, and the incursus is the only ship with a web, it will be able to hold the rifter within its blaster range and apply its full dps, and should win. If the rifter has the web instead, it can hold the incursus at range, use barrage ammo and kill it easily. Webs are an integral part of pvp and are in the game for a reason. If you're not using specific modules because you don't like them then thats fine, but don't expect your opponent to do the same.
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.22 14:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett Webs are an integral part of pvp and are in the game for a reason. If you're not using specific modules because you don't like them then thats fine, but don't expect your opponent to do the same. I don't think you understand why i started this thread. I'm perfectly aware of how this game pvp works (read first post). I wish for more chaotic battles where it isn't about webbing and/or primariing the other side to death. Scrambling i can live with, webbing is the most cheezy part of this game. A magic device that just force the enemy to slow down (with no counters) so it can be shot at, why not one that make it drop his shields and use it's own nanobots to eat away it's armor and hull? It's poor gameplay, not fun unless you are on the winning side. Anyway, i don't really expect the game to change, i just want to know if other players think like me.
Rotundone	Posted - 2010.01.22 15:07:00 - [8] I think you would have a fair shot of setting up no-web dogfights with RvB members. Many are out for 1v1 and I'm sure some would agree to this arrangment. Granted, you won't get this with random RvB encounters as fitting a web is standard operating procedure.
ACE81	Posted - 2010.01.22 15:08:00 - [9] Talk to RvB and Make 1v1 challenges for no eWar I bet you will get some fun battles :P Heck Im tempted to try RvB
Pel Ukken Vitharr's Vengeance	Posted - 2010.01.22 16:42:00 - [10] join a militia. get an interceptor or a fancy-pants faction/pirate frig. wait at a gate. get solo kills. this happens quite a bit. but the possibility of 15+ dudes landing on you and killing you in the face is always there. it's called situational awareness. it's called pvp.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2010.01.22 16:49:00 - [11] Try learning how to fly your blaster boat or flying a different ship. Webs are not 'cheesy' or bad game design.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.22 17:33:00 - [12] Webs are much improved. You used to have only two ranges in the past: very close and outside web range due to webifiers slowing ships down to 10% of their speed. Nowadays you can actually fight range battles within web range. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Mutant Caldari Caldari Psykotic Meat Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.01.22 18:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Merdaneth Webs are much improved. You used to have only two ranges in the past: very close and outside web range due to webifiers slowing ships down to 10% of their speed. Nowadays you can actually fight range battles within web range. I actually miss the old webs quite a bit. It allowed Void to actually hit and made it harder for people to slowboat back to gates/stations Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? http://www.wi-alliance.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678 http://roadkill.igs-corp.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=32678
DaDutchDude Minmatar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2010.01.22 18:48:00 - [14] Edited by: DaDutchDude on 22/01/2010 18:51:48 The problem with the Incurses is that it's ultra-short ranged with blasters and not very fast compared to ships of the same size. That means you can't dictate range based on that, and that usually ends in tears. The trick is to find, or rather: create, fights where you can dictate range. An AB Incurses can do tons of damage to cruiser sized targets. There is just 2 things you need to do: 1) Avoid ships known to neut: they will kill you 2) Get to 0: you need to start a fight at 0 (or close to it) or you might have trouble There are several ways to get a fight to start at 0. The best one is to pretend you're actually the prey instead of the hunter. Have a cruiser pilot think you're an easy meal, run away by warping to a celestial at 0 and wait. If he lands right on you, scram and you're golden. Keep your AB burning or pulse it as required. You usually won't need to web the target to be able to stick to a 500m orbit. Webbing your target might actually make it easier for him to track you if he's orbiting you (instead of trying to kite you), so use your webber only when required. His web on you alone shouldn't compensate enough for his lower tracking, so he'll mostly miss you and you should be able to tank his minimal DPS. His drones will be your biggest threat now. If they hurt you, web and kill the drones and then wear him down. Good luck! _____________________________________ Agony Unleashed (home of PVP University)
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.22 21:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Droog 1 Try learning how to fly your blaster boat or flying a different ship. Webs are not 'cheesy' or bad game design. I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.23 03:53:00 - [16] Edited by: Psychotic Maniac on 23/01/2010 03:54:51 Originally by: Foraven Originally by: Droog 1 Try learning how to fly your blaster boat or flying a different ship. Webs are not 'cheesy' or bad game design. I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay. ccp likes us to be punching bags. this means more isk destroyed. more isk destroyed means more gtc's purchased. more gtc's purchased means more revenue for ccp. more revenue for ccp means better game features. better game features means more customers. more customers means more revenue. well you see the circle that's happening. NOW FIX THE DAMN LAG ALREADY! Also, take away the stupid shut down mwd on scrams. It takes the fun out of flying anything small and hoping for a solo kill vrs. anyone but some noobs. Also, give us our AB boost too. PLEASE! I promise I'll stay along with many others at the same time you will get many more new customers. Gauranteed.
Metathron S'Erum	Posted - 2010.01.23 09:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Psychotic Maniac more gtc's purchased means more revenue for ccp. No, it doesn't.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.23 11:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Metathron Originally by: Psychotic Maniac more gtc's purchased means more revenue for ccp. No, it doesn't. Ohh Really. I bet the owners will disagree. Ask them.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2010.01.23 15:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Foraven Originally by: Droog 1 Try learning how to fly your blaster boat or flying a different ship. Webs are not 'cheesy' or bad game design. I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay. Then fly a ship that operates outside of web range or wait until Jumpgate: Evolution is released.
Wayay Bonnylad	Posted - 2010.01.23 16:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Foraven I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay. I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like you are playing the wrong game. Have you tried some of the flight sim games out there? Or for a space based fly and fight game I hear that Jumpgate Evolution is pretty good. I haven't played it myself but have been told it is like a cross between a flight sim and an arcade game set in space.
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.23 17:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Wayay Bonnylad Originally by: Foraven I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay. I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like you are playing the wrong game. Have you tried some of the flight sim games out there? Or for a space based fly and fight game I hear that Jumpgate Evolution is pretty good. I haven't played it myself but have been told it is like a cross between a flight sim and an arcade game set in space. I believe this game could be much better than it currently is with a little rework of some of it's gameplay. Unfortunately, lots of players here like it's unbalanced gameplay and love to abuse some of it's features. I don't play games just to vent myself, i want a challenge doing it and some satisfaction out of the time i play it. But you are right, this game may no be for me. Probably i'm too idealist to play MMOs too.
Kessiaan Minmatar Final Agony	Posted - 2010.01.23 19:09:00 - [22] Edited by: Kessiaan on 23/01/2010 19:15:50 Webs are fine. Learning how to maneuver while webbed is one of the key (player) skills you need to master to be an effective blaster ship pilot, in any hull. But you don't speed tank same-size hulls up close. If you try you'll find you're going way too fast to hit them. You can orbit larger targets with an afterburner (and this is a very effective tactic when you can pull it off) but for the most part short range fits are about getting in their face and staying there no matter what. Good blaster ship fits generally fit only a buffer tank and as many damage mods as they can squeeze on - the idea is that they die before you do. I understand what kind of pvp you're asking for, but that sort of engagement just doesn't exist in EvE, and I don't really see how it could be added in without really screwing up existing mechanics. AFs are supposed to get some kind of AB buff eventually, perhaps that will be more in line with what you're looking for. As for the Incursus - I've never been very impressed with it. The Taranis on the other hand is probably the best blaster frig in the game - it's fast, reasonably tough with only a DC2, and does almost as much DPS as an AF. It's one of my favorite ships actually, and one I suggest you look into. Taranis HIGH: 3x Light Ion Blaster II (Null S) MID: Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcject Thrusters Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II (or a 2nd scram if you're chasing stab fits, can take down stabbed cruisers if you use Void) LOW: Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Overdrive Injector System II DRONE: 2x Hobgoblin II RIG: Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.24 00:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Kessiaan Webs are fine. Learning how to maneuver while webbed is one of the key (player) skills you need to master to be an effective blaster ship pilot, in any hull. Web are a major annoyance when trying to fight against a mob. It only need 2-3 ships from their gang to have webs and you are dead. There is no counter against web, meaning no device that reduce or negate their effects. Keeping out of range may be the only solution, but tuning a ship for extreme speed also mean neglecting offense and defense modules, making the ship good at evading but little else. To me it just make small ship warfare (in pvp) pretty dull since all they end up being good at is tackling, scouting and fodders.
Hellfury Resurrected Incura	Posted - 2010.01.24 06:31:00 - [24] You aren't trying hard enough. -------------------------------------------
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.24 14:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Hellfury Resurrected You aren't trying hard enough. I think this vid would have been better in the Incursus vs anything thread.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.01.24 15:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Foraven Originally by: Hellfury Resurrected You aren't trying hard enough. I think this vid would have been better in the Incursus vs anything thread. I think you'd better watch that vid for an example of 'dogfighting' instead of whining while unwilling to adapt. Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think? Originally by: AFK Cloaker
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.01.24 17:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Hellfury Resurrected You aren't trying hard enough. Pretty much sums up the op. Noob ceptor pilots that don't know their role. Get to close to heavier frig(incursus). Then, loose thier mwd from scram and no more ship. Looked very much like punching bags to me. Just a flyweight doin the punchin is all. But, I'm sure you had fun. Not much of a loss for you in t1 frig.
Dynast Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.25 01:33:00 - [28] Edited by: Dynast on 25/01/2010 01:35:37 Edited by: Dynast on 25/01/2010 01:33:52 Originally by: Foraven I know how this works, i don't need to learn how. I still don't find it enjoyable. I want real fight, not the turn your enemies into helpless punchbag gameplay. What you want sounds un-fun; it'd be closer to the jump-casting or chicken-hopping 'twitch' combat offered by some other games, and further from the simulationist gameplay EVE currently offers. I'd much rather win fights based on careful range management than on who slaps f1 at the right time on fly-bys. Edit: that said, get in a crow or vagabond, those are the closest to what you're asking for, since both typically operate outside of web range and depend on quick reactions to enemy velocity/trajectory changes.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2010.01.25 05:26:00 - [29] I think the proposed Assault Frigate boost that was going to go into Dominion 1.0 would have helped out on frigate dogfights so much. Give them an awesome after burner and they would become the premier dogfight ship. also, don't you hate those people that trick you into thinking their signature is part of their post?
Alenora Tizar	Posted - 2010.01.25 05:52:00 - [30] u know what would be cool, if pilots could dock within a carrier or super-carrier and choose to pilot fighters or fighter-bombers during a battle :)

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