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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.22 20:56:00 -
[1]
<Like any idea it is opened to tweaks and improvements from peers>
The Issue: When mining in high sec space, mainly solo, the best way to do it is through jet canning. With this is the ability for it to get stolen and that is fare. The issues are in the way eve handles this.
1) You and your corp can engage the "flipper"
____a) The flipper makes his own can which means you can't engage his corp mates when they come to clam it. Meanwhile he is going to dock for the Aggro timer.
2) If you steal your ore back, the pirate corp and kill you and your corp still can't help
____a) This means there is no way to protect your assets in a real fight
The Idea:
As a member of any entity you stand for it, your actions represent the entity. So I propose that when the event of can "flipping" happens your corp has the shooting rights on the other corp(this breaks into 2 different ways to handle it)
1)All "Pirate" corp members are set to hostile you can attack them and do what is necessary to defend your assets. On attack the corp members that engage are now hostile to the "Pirates". I feel that this Aggro timer should be Corp Wide. After 15 mins of No shots being exchanged this impromptu war is over.
2) Now I can see how that would have some issue.. You get one person in Caldari space to start this, and a team in Gallente space starts killing miners, While that would suck I do feel that would be the right/realist way to handle it. But there is another option, Reworking the Aggro timer to affect those with in 3 or 4 jumps of the event, Then the impromptu war would be contained.
I feel by doing this you would 1) balance the hi sec pirate situation and 2) create a new and very interesting hi sec dynamic that would set the tone for Corp and Alliance tone in a more weighted manner.
The only whole i see with this issue is pirates in starter NPC corps, off the top of my head a faction standings hit would work, as NPC corps are representing nation states, and they do not want crime in there ranks, and naturally if you steal enough while being part of a NPC "fleet"(corp) they will try to shoot you.
Please give feedback!
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.01.22 21:10:00 -
[2]
Read the other threads about jet can mining. Its an exploit that CCP have allowed. If you don't like it stop jettisoning ore, more to a quite system or use an Orca.
The ability to attack ore thief's does not really work, it was meant as a deterrent. In stead it just encouraged it as wannabe pirates did hoping the miner would attack, they then warp back in a combat fitted ship and destroy the miner.
If CCP consider this a problem, that they need to do is release a larger secure container or other device that can hold ore.
Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.01.22 21:10:00 -
[3]
There is no real issue that needs fixing. Stealing your ore back is easy.
Simple tactic: Warp hauler on top of can, hit align to station, open can, select station, move stuff, hit yes on the dialog (skip if disabled), click dock on the station, warp off immediately. The flipper will see you warping off before his scram activates. Add a WCS or three if you feel uncomfortable. Wait for aggro to run out, prepare exploit petition should the flipper use means to extend with a hidden aggro timer and pop you.
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.01.22 21:13:00 -
[4]
Why do people feel the need to fix things that are not broken?
also, don't you hate those people that trick you into thinking their signature is part of their post? |
Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:16:00 -
[5]
1) It is not an exploit because no game systems are being broken
2) The issue is not the jet caning, only the fair right to fight and defend your assets with out getting owned by concord
3) I understand there is ways around it. But there should be a Fair way to handle the situation realistically.
/me wants to flame the people who seem to lack logic based cognitive processes
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: James Tritanius on 22/01/2010 22:22:08
 Quote:
1) You and your corp can engage the "flipper"
____a) The flipper makes his own can which means you can't engage his corp mates when they come to clam it. Meanwhile he is going to dock for the Aggro timer.
2) If you steal your ore back, the pirate corp and kill you and your corp still can't help
____a) This means there is no way to protect your assets in a real fight
Here is why your example is flawed:
If he really wants the ore that badly (willing to sacrifice 15 minutes just so his corpmates can come in industrials to claim it), he doesn't even need to create his own can! He can just come in with his corpmates and haul your ore away. You can't do anything about that neither and none of your suggestions solve this problem.
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Ver1tas Curat
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:26:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Ver1tas Curat on 22/01/2010 22:27:24
I completely agree with the proposition. If you are out doing something for yourself and your corporation (mining) and get flipped your corp should be allowed to shoot them. The timer should be corp wide and maybe even tell you where the situation is going down which can then relay throughout the corp and the pirate taking care of.
all in all I support your idea and think it is a very good one that would if not HELP stop can flipping it would at least make it a more frowned upon act.
Edit:
I suppose mining with GSC's would take care of this issue. But the last time i checked these were inefficient.
I support corp flagging.
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:28:00 -
[8]
No, but you would be able to openly engage the corp mates, If they shoot your POS your allowed to shoot them, Ore is still an asset. My example is based off of what happened to me 12 hours ago, so it is not a be all end all. But that's why I want constructive feed back
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: James Tritanius on 22/01/2010 22:41:21
Flagging the whole corp is a bad idea. The whole corp shouldn't be held accountable by the action of only one of their members.
Here's an example:
Canflipper flips miner.
Flipper's whole corp gets flagged.
Miner's corp doesn't really want to engage as they are mostly PvE oriented.
Miner gets a warpstabbed hauler and takes the ore back.
Miner's whole corp gets flagged.
Gankage of poorly fit of mining & mission vessels ensue.
Or, even better:
Some PvP'er gets an alt into a mining corp.
Alt steals from PvP corp.
Mining corp gets flagged.
PvP corp warps in 10 ships onto a large mining op.
Carnage ensue.
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CCOPS
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: CCOPS on 22/01/2010 22:46:07
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.22 22:52:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 22/01/2010 22:53:03
Ya, which is why I have my jump range aggro Idea.. But I think it is key to remeber that this is eve, we aren't WOW and shouldn't hold our self to the lower standards of making it as friendly and colorful, in eve every action changes something this just adjust it to what i feel is in a more balanced way.
<Whats with the blank post?>
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.22 23:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 22/01/2010 22:53:03
Ya, which is why I have my jump range aggro Idea.. But I think it is key to remeber that this is eve, we aren't WOW and shouldn't hold our self to the lower standards of making it as friendly and colorful, in eve every action changes something this just adjust it to what i feel is in a more balanced way.
<Whats with the blank post?>
Jump range doesn't matter. Take my second example, the alt can be stationed in that same system. This isn't about being "friendly and colorful". I'm sure you would like your mining ship to blow up just because one of your corpmates in ibis took a piece of ammo from a can?
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CCOPS
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Posted - 2010.01.22 23:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: CCOPS on 22/01/2010 23:04:48
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Allan Sheperd
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Posted - 2010.01.23 02:03:00 -
[14]
I heard there was this new pilotable storage can that also increased the amount you could mine... |
Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.23 03:14:00 -
[15]
Don't mine into a jet can.
Jet cans are made to jettison garbage, not securly hold ore.
Get a giant secure can, or a friend in an industrial.
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.23 03:19:00 -
[16]
Your thinking that players don't know what would happen once you take from a can. If it was the norm, everyone would know the reaction to the action, and it is our duty as corp/alliance leaders to teach our members a code of conduct(COC) as well as rules of engagement(ROE)
And most of you are talking about work a rounds, that is not addressing the issue i have raised only circumventing it
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Drey Foos
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Posted - 2010.01.24 15:22:00 -
[17]
In all of the examples the use of a GSC in high-sec space where a lot of the wannabe pirates hang out is null and void as the password takes no effect unless the can is anchored and anchoring has its own requirements (like a certain sec level) and, as was rightly pointed out is damned inefficient as they have to have a 5km radius from any other object. The OP idea is very much supported as you simply cannot defend yourself or your ore properly in an indy ship.
CCP are close to becoming like Apple in the way they screw you over with their lockins. All "game-balances"/"deterrents" etc are always in favour of PvP pirates, they rarely if ever give a toss about the economy drivers (industrialists/traders).
Aggro timers are a joke and by the time you dock and change ships to retaliate, the thief/pirate is long gone.
If they want to redress this problem (which they don't and are never likely to) they simply need to not allow the thief access to the jump gate for the duration of the aggro timer, which will at least give the industrialists a sporting chance to hunt them down and vape them in a fair fight. If that forces the aggressor to dock for 15 mins then that at least allows for the retrieval of the ore. |
Taketo Kalindika
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.24 16:25:00 -
[18]
I think that 70% of players get the eve wrong, so everything is wrong. You should be able to fly to 0.5 in your frigate. I was can fliped only once, and that was on my first trial in 2004, whit it, i was just looking how the game works, and i didn't except that this will happen.. :D
whey you reach the detroyer class ships you should be able to go to 0.4,... but most of players are *****s, so are miners, ore thiefs and pvpers.. in every type of roles, there are *****s. all are hiding in 1.0,9.0,8.0 maybe even 7.0 but here you can use LargeSecCans, and i use them, I'm flying in space 0.3-06, maybe even 0.7 But, i was almost never attacked or something,... 1.0 and 0.9 space should be noob space, to make some security for new players. it's not meant to hide all your eve-life in it.
That's about can fliping. and if players would go to lower security like 0.5, they could mine better ore, and use sec.cans anchored, so they couldn't get can flipped.
and if you ask me, when you don't use your n00bship anymore, you are able to go to lower security sistem. I did it, and I'm sucessfull.
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.24 19:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Drey Foos
If they want to redress this problem (which they don't and are never likely to)....
Ya, which is why I post this, I hope/wish I can give the ideas to fix the system the traction that is needed for a dev or at least a CSM to give it the attention that we feel it requires. Also remember CCP like to CSM is from the people for the people, with out the people they both would be nothing.
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Ciar Biar
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Posted - 2010.01.24 19:30:00 -
[20]
Either I do not get it or the OP does not get it.
People in this game do conspire to do things they would not try in real life. Some players can flip not for ore but to try and provoke a fight or make a person mad. Kill mails and annoying others is what they play eve for. Reread James Tritanius posts he understands. I do not think you understand people that grief will make alts on a another account to set up others. If you need more examples of how some people think look a salvage ninjas and empire suicide gankers. Do you not think that they would make a alt and try to get in a legit corp and cause aggression timers?
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
Your thinking that players don't know what would happen once you take from a can. If it was the norm, everyone would know the reaction to the action, and it is our duty as corp/alliance leaders to teach our members a code of conduct(COC) as well as rules of engagement(ROE)
And most of you are talking about work a rounds, that is not addressing the issue i have raised only circumventing it
COC and ROE does not work when someone joins joins a corp to wreck havoc. If the goal is to sneak a alt into industrial or mission corp and then set them up with a corp wide aggression for stealing it will not be hard to do. You will get more and more isolation with your plan and make it very difficult for legit new players to get into a corp and make friends.
I am a mission runner with miners and builders on multiple accounts, I am posting this with a Jita price check alt to see if you can figure out who my main is or the industry characters are. I hope you are starting to get a idea of what could happen.
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Samantha U
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Posted - 2010.01.24 20:03:00 -
[21]
We already solved the problem of can flipping. It's called an Orca, works a treat. In Eve you'll often find the tools are there if you're willing to use them.
This proposition doesn't solve the issue at all, and in fact creates more, therefore it's a little difficult to call it a solution to can flipping when it could potentially become a cheap way to gank a mining op and may cause corps to view applicants with even more suspicion than they do already.
Get an Orca, be happy, we are 
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.24 22:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ciar Biar
Either I do not get it or the OP does not get it.
People in this game do conspire to do things they would not try in real life. Some players can flip not for ore but to try and provoke a fight or make a person mad. Kill mails and annoying others is what they play eve for. Reread James Tritanius posts he understands. I do not think you understand people that grief will make alts on a another account to set up others. If you need more examples of how some people think look a salvage ninjas and empire suicide gankers. Do you not think that they would make a alt and try to get in a legit corp and cause aggression timers?
I do not see how most of the point of view changes what I am saying, I am not saying take away from any thing in the game, What makes eve truly great is the ability to do ANYTHING and that includes stealing in all its forms. What I am saying we should add is a system to balance the stealing.. Where I live if someone breaks into your house you have the right to shoot them, they crossed the line and your allowed to cross the line. In eve they cross the line and the police look the other way at the get away driver.. I wish to extend it to allowing me to take up the gap that concord will not. And yes there are ways around my proposed idea.. but with the logic most of you are using is the same of saying "well since we will die 90 years from now instead of investing in sci and med to extend and make that life better I should just put a bullet through my head to save time"
/me flames anyone else that clam the Orca fixes the issue, the Orca is a Command ship first and foremost and therefore not apart of this issue
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.01.24 23:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
I do not see how most of the point of view changes what I am saying, I am not saying take away from any thing in the game, What makes eve truly great is the ability to do ANYTHING and that includes stealing in all its forms. What I am saying we should add is a system to balance the stealing.. Where I live if someone breaks into your house you have the right to shoot them, they crossed the line and your allowed to cross the line. .. I wish to extend it to allowing me to take up the gap that concord will not.
Ummm... If someone takes from your can, you can kill them.
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.25 01:00:00 -
[24]
I never said you shouldn't be able to bring up the issue. All I'm saying is that your solution sucks and you should rethink it.
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Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2010.01.25 02:08:00 -
[25]
There's already a fix implemented. Pressing the warp button to go back to a station makes it completely impossible for anyone to steal from you. It's almost magic. Stop jet can mining.
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Sir Wolfgang
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.25 05:51:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 25/01/2010 05:52:29
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 25/01/2010 05:51:55
Originally by: Dacryphile
Ummm... If someone takes from your can, you can kill them.
Good to see you have read the first post...
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Originally by: James Tritanius
I never said you shouldn't be able to bring up the issue. All I'm saying is that your solution sucks and you should rethink it.
Ok.. Then what is your idea that is better?? I am at least putting an idea out there
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Originally by: Stupid McStupidson
There's already a fix implemented. Pressing the warp button to go back to a station makes it completely impossible for anyone to steal from you. It's almost magic. Stop jet can mining.
Anyone that wants to post something else that is meaningless and counterproductive flame baited crap... Go post else where
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.25 05:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
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Originally by: James Tritanius
I never said you shouldn't be able to bring up the issue. All I'm saying is that your solution sucks and you should rethink it.
Ok.. Then what is your idea that is better?? I am at least putting an idea out there
I don't think you get it. You are the OP. You are supposed to come up with the ideas. I'm telling you that your idea doesn't work and it will lead to more grief on the very players you are trying to protect. So come up with another one or this thread is pointless.
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Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2010.01.25 15:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 25/01/2010 05:52:29
Edited by: Sir Wolfgang on 25/01/2010 05:51:55
Originally by: Dacryphile
Ummm... If someone takes from your can, you can kill them.
Good to see you have read the first post...
--
Originally by: James Tritanius
I never said you shouldn't be able to bring up the issue. All I'm saying is that your solution sucks and you should rethink it.
Ok.. Then what is your idea that is better?? I am at least putting an idea out there
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Originally by: Stupid McStupidson
There's already a fix implemented. Pressing the warp button to go back to a station makes it completely impossible for anyone to steal from you. It's almost magic. Stop jet can mining.
Anyone that wants to post something else that is meaningless and counterproductive flame baited crap... Go post else where
Flame baiting indeed! You sir are a moron. Unfortunately the old faq is no longer available, but perhaps you should know what CCP has stated repeatedly on the matter.
It was never intended for you to mine into a jet can. It's you're good fortune that it's not considered an exploit. It's even more fortunate for you that they decided to flag people who took from a can in RMR.
There are dozens of options, currently existing that prevent theft. You can return to station, you can mine into secure containers, you can have guards there to deter or kill thieves.
But you, have decided to eschew all of this to get the max yield for yourself. The fact that secure cans hold less than jet cans is irrelevant, the trade off for the security of the GSC is that it doesn't hold as much. YOU decided to go the insecure route. The fact that splitting income to guards makes you earn less is irrelevant, the trade off for having security is splitting the haul more ways. YOU decided to go the insecure route. And of course, you could just warp back to station. You trade a few mining cycles for the trip. But once again, YOU decided to go the insecure route.
Despite all of this, CCP relented yet again, and gave you the Orca, which holds a ridiculous amount of ore, can pull cans from virtually anywhere in the belt, faster than anything but an interceptor can fly, AND gives yield and laser time boosts.......AND STILL you decide to mine continuously into jet cans.
CCP has bent over backwards giving you every opportunity to mine securely, and have large amounts of cargo. But you bypass all the methods to avoid jet can theft, THE PREMISE OF YOUR ENTIRE POST. You're premise is flawed, therefore your idea is flawed. If you choose to mine into a jet can, everything that can happen to you as a result is there intentionally, and by design.
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Ciar Biar
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Posted - 2010.01.25 18:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
Where I live if someone breaks into your house you have the right to shoot them, they crossed the line and your allowed to cross the line.
ROFLMAO where you live do you also have the right to shoot someones family and friends? That is what your OP is all about.
Sir Wolfgang
Since you do not seem to understand the game mechanics and the risks involved with your plan let me give a example why this would not be good for the game.
Joe Cool is flying a indy, hulk, mission ship, or freighter it does not matter any thing can be killed with planning. A new member of your corp is a alt of a pirate that has been watching you. The pirate alt steals from the pirate while in the same system you are in and the pirate and his corp comes and kills you. Under what you proposed that would be a legitimate kill and use of game mechanics and it will happen often.
If I lost a good deal of isk to a set up like that what are my options?
Make my own corp and keep myself isolated so it does not happen again?
Ask the CEO to put a freeze on all recruiting efforts?
Take revenge on the person that proposed this in the first place?
A bit of research would reveal.
You are the CEO of a 5 man corp in a 4 corp, 28 member alliance. As CEO of a corp you have been in for 7 days with several joins and quits I am guessing it is you and alts or a few friends. Last time you left was for 7 days my guess would be it was a standing adjustment for POS placement, just a guess but I can add you to my friends list and see when you are on and keep tabs on you with a locator agent. If you tend to hang out in a area then I would scout moons and look for a POS to confirm my guess. Then I have a few options I will let you think about what they might be.
What causes less grief not mining in a unsecured container that anyone can take from and then whining for a game mechanic change that people will find a disaster or annoying the people that understand what your asking for and know ways of dealing with it.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.25 20:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ciar Biar
Originally by: Sir Wolfgang
Where I live if someone breaks into your house you have the right to shoot them, they crossed the line and your allowed to cross the line.
ROFLMAO where you live do you also have the right to shoot someones family and friends? That is what your OP is all about.
LOL.
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