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CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2010.01.25 22:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 25/01/2010 22:53:38
sigh.. don't be so delusionel it's not a matter off giving more "power" to the shard so more people can join (unless you got a way to have 40k players at the same shard without lag that is).
since people will just join more people into the fight untill it starts lagging too bad and then it will be the same result.
quite logic if you think about it.
so untill now you have been running in circles... so maybe start thinking and making a system that actually works instead of keeping this failure up in mass pvp...
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Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Mitchell Hagen
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Posted - 2010.01.25 22:54:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Caladain Barton
Oh..and 100 Sure won't replicate...400 *might* but 500 *will*. Anything less and you're wasting time. Just so you know.
The more the merrier, I say.
However, even with 100 they can get useful data even if lag is not experienced. The debugging code is likely to be execution-time code profiling which tracks how long blocks of code take to execute. They would already know from in-house testing how long these code blocks take to execute with small numbers of ships. With a larger fleet, they can get code profiles on larger numbers of players. A comparison can then indicate the sections of code that need attention.
With the ship-to-ship communication that takes place, it is difficult - if not impossible - to eliminate server side lag entirely. All that can be done is to push the limits out further so more ships can fight together before lag becomes problematic.
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Chienka
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.25 22:58:00 -
[33]
Would be of use if you could use jump bridges and portals as well Navigator, the current lag situation occurs both when the **** hits the fan and pilots start shooting each other AS WELL AS when people jump in.
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TSX01
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Posted - 2010.01.25 23:17:00 -
[34]
Thanks CCP for doing this, you are about 2 month late
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dukenewcomb
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Posted - 2010.01.25 23:19:00 -
[35]
All Level 5 skills? (puppy dog eyes)
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Farseeker
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Posted - 2010.01.25 23:27:00 -
[36]
The best thing you can do is to be there in systems where it's 1000+ players and start analysing everything u want. Fleets won't mind having some CCP and ISD in the same system while the fight take place.
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Amayya Savat
Crimson Empire.
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 00:03:00 -
[37]
Ill be at work so no testing for me, actually I think there should be some type of compensation for the people doing testing, h**l even for the people that have had to deal with this patch that was not ready for release.
Eve is supposed to be fun, we have had tons of downtime and wasted engagements because we lose the element of surprise when your nodes crash and you roll back a few minutes......... 4 hour fleet engagement ends in victory only to have the nodes go down, then they restart and the effing ships you just killed are looking right back at you as good as new. Fun is leaving quickly, but not as quickly as your nodes are failing.
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Stitcher
Caldari
ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.26 00:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: SamuraiJack
And for the love that all is Quafe... DO MORE FRACKING QA.
Well, you see this thread right here? the thing it's organizing?
Yeah. This IS QA.
Its not even close to it. Its "**** dudes... we screwed up. Lets throw some debugging code up and try fix it again"
Just FYI?
You're an idiot.
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Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.26 00:41:00 -
[39]
Are the gate jumping mechanics the same as the cyno ones?
I'd expect that they're testing the system loading so it should be, but am I correct?
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Pharexia
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Posted - 2010.01.26 01:33:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: SamuraiJack
And for the love that all is Quafe... DO MORE FRACKING QA.
Well, you see this thread right here? the thing it's organizing?
Yeah. This IS QA.
Its not even close to it. Its "**** dudes... we screwed up. Lets throw some debugging code up and try fix it again"
Just FYI?
You're an idiot.
As much as I hate to increase a flame I strongly second people who have no idea WTF they are talking about. Before people say well WTF do you know here is what I know. I AM QA. Not for EVE of course but my real life paying job is as a certified software analyst which is just a fancy term for QA. The larger the program the more things can go wrong the harder it is to test especially on a time crunch. You dont know the whole story and for that matter neither do I. A last minute seemingly small change could have made it into domination that fuabred the entire thing because it wasnt planned out on how many things it would affect. Likewise it could be that the QA Dept did a test of around 250 vs 250 ships or even 500 vs 500 and didnt notice it. Either way until you know the whole story you cant blame one side or the other. Simply put when something this large isnt noticed its the fault of everyone. From the lowly QA or QA team, through their managers, through the architects, through the Project Managers who sign it on. to finally whomever has the last say or in this case the rubber stamp to say SEND IT.
Lets just hope now it wont be swept underneath the rug if the test server results come back clean because thats the best way to lose a lot of people......
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SamuraiJack
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 01:53:00 -
[41]
How about this... i reported multiple issues for dom and apoc. ALL those issues made it to the live server.
So either QA fails hard, Bugtesters arent doing job, or CCP is IGNORING QA flagged issues and pushing on regardless.
Given a good chunk of QA left iceland as the financial crisis hit and you have recipe for ****ed players.
I know what my money is on.
And if CCP wants me to take them seriously. Lets have another big bug fix patch. The buglist gets bigger daily.
It would prove they are listening and DO want to make our lifes better in eve. Instead of just leaching us for cash.
=-
The Chronicles of SamuraiJack
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Entre Envy
Gallente
Veldspar Reclamation Inc
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Posted - 2010.01.26 02:06:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Entre Envy on 26/01/2010 02:06:40
Originally by: Pharexia
-crap-
Help or GTFO
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Stitcher
Caldari
ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.26 02:38:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Stitcher on 26/01/2010 02:45:40
Originally by: SamuraiJack
So either QA fails hard, Bugtesters arent doing job, or CCP is IGNORING QA flagged issues and pushing on regardless.
I'm going to go with option D: the staff at CCP have to meet deadlines and have to prioritize some issues ahead of others when deciding what makes it into the patch and what doesn't.
There are a lot of code lines in EVE and thus, by extension, a lot of bugs. So many, in fact, that resolving them is a constant grind. the QA team's reward for putting one bug to bed is that they get to start working on the next one.
Bugs take time to fix. It's not good enough to just know that "X does Y in circumstance Z", you then have to 1) figure out what exactly is causing that to happen (which bear in mind can mean hunting through tens of thousands of lines of code), 2) figure out how to re-write the code so that it functions as intended, 3) compile the new code and 4) make sure that the change works.
That, by the way, is a massively truncated list of the procedure. The point is that each bug cleared represents a lot of work and a lot of time. And there are a LOT of bugs in the game, not out of developer incompetence but because of the simple fact that you can't have a program as complicated as EVE without bugs.
And yet the patch has to come out on time. So in the time prior to the patch, you prioritize the bugs, and work on finishing as many of them as you can before the deadline for compiling the patch comes around.
I don't know exactly what the priority list is, but things that actively break the game, like certain modules not working as intended, or market transactions causing a crash will be near the top, while purely cosmetic problems like missile explosions appearing as big orange squares will be nearer the bottom, and trivial things like grammatical errors in item descriptions will be "do it when you have a few spare minutes near the end of the day" territory.
All of this adds up to one simple truth: it is not possible to set a patch deadline and have all possible issues resolved prior to that deadline. There are too many of them, and they all take too long to sort out. You can either put the patch out on the declared date and time, or you can postpone the patch until every last bug has been resolved...
or rather you can't, because by the time that's happened, the next expansion will be going live, and bringing its own army of new bugs.
Bug-buster patches aren't all roses and romance, remember. patches mean downloading the update, they usually mean more server downtime, they frequently cause trouble for players in their own right. Patching too frequently isn't a great idea because ultimately it's inconvenient for the players. So why do it more often than is necessary? Why have a dedicated bug-patch when you can have a patch that does things like bring in fighter-bombers AND includes all the bug fixes that are ready to go live?
Besides which, as I have pointed out, the QA team has a work pace. fixing enough bugs to make it worth one big patch takes a long time, during which time other teams within CCP can produce content that they've been working on as well. If you're going to patch the game to introduce the bug fixes, then why not include the non-QA content developed during that time as well? It's more efficient that way.
I had the opportunity to chat with QA at fanfest, and they all struck me as driven, professional and very keen to make sure that EVE is as good and as bug-free as possible. It seemed to be a matter of pride, in fact. So, I don't know where you're getting this "money-leeching uncaring corporate monolith" image from, but I just can't agree with you on it. I think they take QA far more seriously than you give them credit for, and it's only your ignorance of the realities of quality control, testing and bug-fixing that makes you feel this way.
My ú0.02 firmly given. I'm bowing out of this topic now.
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Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.26 03:12:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Spc One on 26/01/2010 03:13:40
I would like to join you but i don't know where to get the latest patch for sisi.
My current sisi installation doesn't detect a new one ( i have current tq version) [126344].
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Xavier Maroquin
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Posted - 2010.01.26 03:13:00 -
[45]
How long will this last? (Though I suppose it will depend on the lag)
Is starts at noon for me and I will be in school, will it still be going when I get home?
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Xain deSleena
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Posted - 2010.01.26 04:20:00 -
[46]
Good luck with testing. I will try and make it.
Xain |
Pharexia
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Posted - 2010.01.26 04:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Entre Envy
Edited by: Entre Envy on 26/01/2010 02:06:40
Originally by: Pharexia
-crap-
Help or GTFO
And this is why I never usually post on these boards....
Nice response didnt even bother to read it I see.
Just assumed I was another person whining about why they didnt catch it or wtf game sucks now.....
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Rho Legate
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Posted - 2010.01.26 08:34:00 -
[48]
I don't think i've ever seen so many selfish and self centered people *shakes head*
CCP have given us one of the best if not THE best MMO for people who have a brain and want to use it.
Where nearly every other mmo charges you a premium for an expansion we get them for free, the upgrades and improvements over the lifespan of eve make are amazing nothing else out there comes close and sony/ncsoft/blizzard release patches with bugs that make these ones look like a papercut...
No code is perfect and the proof of it is usually when it hits live, bots can not replicate human players even the best bots don't have the ability so its really hard in my experience to see or find this kind of bug in QA.
Having used debug code on my own little MO game I run my experience is that debug code especially detailed versions can cut performance by 70% what that means is it thus:
A)activating this debug code on live would bring the game to a grinding halt.
B)400 odd players on SISI with that code running can probably give them more useful information for 1000+ battles etc and what is causing the issues than 6 months of normal logs on Tranq.
To those asking for compensation etc and *****ing at the devs wake up,you are the ones who want this fixed as soon as possible, ccp is giving you a chance to help in a way that your FC's your teams your people can help get this sorted as quickly as possible.
Thank you CCP for all that you have given us, I remember my first day trying EVE on an account I can't even remember 5 years ago and now look what you have given us, I will personally try to be there on sisi if it isn't while im sleeping.
/Respect to CCP
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Taip
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:35:00 -
[49]
I'll certainly make an effort to be there as the current state of the game under load is highly frustrating. Lets just hope you get the information that you need from the testing. |
John Zorg
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.26 10:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Rho Legate
I don't think i've ever seen so many selfish and self centered people *shakes head*
CCP have given us one of the best if not THE best MMO for people who have a brain and want to use it.
Where nearly every other mmo charges you a premium for an expansion we get them for free, the upgrades and improvements over the lifespan of eve make are amazing nothing else out there comes close and sony/ncsoft/blizzard release patches with bugs that make these ones look like a papercut...
No code is perfect and the proof of it is usually when it hits live, bots can not replicate human players even the best bots don't have the ability so its really hard in my experience to see or find this kind of bug in QA.
Having used debug code on my own little MO game I run my experience is that debug code especially detailed versions can cut performance by 70% what that means is it thus:
A)activating this debug code on live would bring the game to a grinding halt.
B)400 odd players on SISI with that code running can probably give them more useful information for 1000+ battles etc and what is causing the issues than 6 months of normal logs on Tranq.
To those asking for compensation etc and *****ing at the devs wake up,you are the ones who want this fixed as soon as possible, ccp is giving you a chance to help in a way that your FC's your teams your people can help get this sorted as quickly as possible.
Thank you CCP for all that you have given us, I remember my first day trying EVE on an account I can't even remember 5 years ago and now look what you have given us, I will personally try to be there on sisi if it isn't while im sleeping.
/Respect to CCP
I am going to throw my opinion in here. We had a test not so long ago and it seems nothing came of it. Being a programmer, I ask this question to CCP, which I am sure I won't get a response to. Why can you not add some logging to TQ and see what happens in the actual fleet fights? From the looks of it, you have more code running now that is reducing effieciency. So saying upgrading the cluster might not be an option as you probably have the best hardware?
Why is there also a need to "reinforce" nodes? Is this a cost saving exercise to give investors better dividends?
As for the "I don't think i've ever seen so many selfish and self centered people *shakes head*", this is not a Charity, I pay hundreds of dollars a year to play this game. It's advertised as a game where thousands of players can fight it out for greater glory, it's not happening...
If you go buy a car and you arrive at the show room, pay the full price, get into the car, try start it and there is no engine. You go to the salesman and he says, "Sorry the engine didn't work so we didn't bother adding it". What would your response be?
Put the logging on TQ where you have endless access to test data, if the node crashes at 400 people with logging it's not far off from the node crashing at 500 people without logging.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.26 10:56:00 -
[51]
My quote from SHC
Quote:
But I cant hide my feelings about this test, and CCP inability to handle things properly. 1st its to early for EU TZ, not to mention US TZ who cant even play cause most of the ppl are sleeping/working/in school. Also its more than optimistic to expect several hundred people to participate with only one ****ty announcement. If CCP really wants numbers, their customer support managers could just send the evemails to leaders of 30 largest alliances, with a plea/request for their members to participate on testing. I spend half of the day yesterday to convo blue/neutral/red entities to come to the test cause last time if Atlas and Morsus Mihi didn’t pushed their members there would be around 50 ppl on sisi. TBH I was on the brink of saying **** you CCP and your testing, but as I would really like to see this dominion **** solved, i will push everyone I know to come on sisi on Wednesday.
Also another idea is to start with notification popups 30m, 1h, 2h before testing so people who are not reading generally boring news could know about testing.
I just cant get off the impression CCP is approaching this problem halfheartedly.
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Kaurapa
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Posted - 2010.01.26 11:44:00 -
[52]
heres a better idea
dont play eve - your giving your money to people who dont know what their doing, so that they can break their own code and then release it as a new product.
the only group they care about are the shareholders
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Triv O'Dean
Gallente
Red White and Blue
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.01.26 11:57:00 -
[53]
Well I will most certainly be there! its 7PM South African time so its perfect for me, just hope I can wiggle through the traffic and be home in time!
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Drakescales
Celestial Asylum
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Posted - 2010.01.26 12:47:00 -
[54]
I am continually amazed at the sheer nonsense and verbal diarrhoea that comes from some people under the guise of internet anonymity. Some things cannot be comprehensively tested in QA testing, no reasonable person can expect CCP to deploy a debugging build on a production cluster like Tranquility. I find it disheartening that some people in this community would sooner sit back and post complaints than attend testing events such as this, as the poor turn out at the last event and incredible volumes of bull**** posted in GD on a daily basis can attest to.
This event falls around 4am in my neck of the woods but I will be there.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.01.26 12:59:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
[crosspost]
Crossposting is bad, mkay?
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Medarr
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:12:00 -
[56]
infiniband - Is used to connected to servers to eachother ( internal pipes ) not external pipes
Live logging on tranq - Do you really want to turn on verbose logging on a live server? No you do not. It creates an even bigger load on the server due to write operations to log file. And instead of 400 ppl doing that you want 40.000 ppl to do that?
Meh i wonder how many of you have actually ever seen a blade server rack or managed one.
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slarti fast
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Medarr
infiniband - Is used to connected to servers to eachother ( internal pipes ) not external pipes
Live logging on tranq - Do you really want to turn on verbose logging on a live server? No you do not. It creates an even bigger load on the server due to write operations to log file. And instead of 400 ppl doing that you want 40.000 ppl to do that?
Meh i wonder how many of you have actually ever seen a blade server rack or managed one.
Quite, anyone who knows anything about IT would never suggest putting debug code on a LIVE server. That's the path chaos. Likewise any REAL programmer knows how difficult it can be to track down some problems.
Give the guys a break and the help they need instead if moaning!
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Triv O'Dean
Gallente
Red White and Blue
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.01.26 13:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: slarti fast
Quite, anyone who knows anything about IT would never suggest putting debug code on a LIVE server. That's the path chaos. Likewise any REAL programmer knows how difficult it can be to track down some problems.
You hit the nail on the head there, its sad to see non-programmers telling dev's how to do their job, we don't go to their jobs and tell them how to flip the burgers ;)
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ExcellciuM
Unknown Research Ventures
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Posted - 2010.01.26 16:19:00 -
[59]
400 is fine for SiSi, it usually lags in FD with 200 as its not as strong as TQ iirc.
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BanzaiJoe
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Posted - 2010.01.26 18:27:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Xavier Maroquin
How long will this last? (Though I suppose it will depend on the lag)
Is starts at noon for me and I will be in school, will it still be going when I get home?
Last time we did two servers and even with the confusion of which server first and the like we got in many fleet fights and all told it was about 2 hours.
I, personally, had a great time. Bobby Atlas was even on MM TS and there was good spirits all around. Everything (yes, pretty much everything) on Sisi is 100 isk. Tired of POS shooting, want some pew pew? It's fight after fight after fight. Lose a ship, no big deal, refit for 2000 isk and get back in the game. PLEASE PLEASE read the sisi rules esp. NO podding, NO smartbombs.
Let's get as many people out there to create this lag so we can fix the problem and get back to pew pew on TQ.
And for those of you that have feelings against / toward CCP, you could go and do something about by being there.
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