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[Proposal] 2 Ideas for Missiles in Fleets

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Jim Raynor Caldari Sinister Corporation	Posted - 2010.01.26 18:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 26/01/2010 18:44:06 Missile Re-Targeting Since we can't seem to get faster missiles without breaking the game. What if guided missiles (light/heavy/cruise/citadel cruise) were able to re-target when a ship has been destroyed or warps away? Say you are shooting at Fred in an Apocalypse from 220km away. Fred sees a ton of missiles coming, and warps away or is destroyed by turret fire. All the missiles heading towards Fred will be diverted to Ralph, who you also have targeted and flagged as a secondary target. Guided Warp Missiles Second solution, which IMO would work nice for ships without a missile velocity bonus. What if guided missiles could WARP? Example Jim Raynor in his Raven fires his cruise launchers they fly out ~20km and after 20km they warp towards the target and strike. There would still be a short flight time delay however cruise missiles would swiftly strike ships from a long distance. The only drawback to this is that cruise missiles generally do superior DPS to turret ships setup to shoot that far.. so maybe we should introduce special warp enabled guided missiles, they would still have their base range limitations that are currently implemented (would only be a factor for light/heavy really but I don't think frigates should be shooting lights 250km away) but could strike from long distance.. of course having an onboard warp engine would mean a smaller warhead and less damage output.. but if a Raven or Typhoon for example with guided warp missiles could do ~300dps from 220km that would be kinda nice and mean people can bring missile ships to fleets. ------ I'll make a sig later.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.01.26 18:46:00 - [2] 2nd proposal: what kind of use would missile range skills have then? i think the normal warp mechanics should apply here, meaning missiles should only warp if the target is 150+km away. all in all i think missiles are fine. ravens are good at killing support.
Jim Raynor Caldari Sinister Corporation	Posted - 2010.01.26 18:51:00 - [3] Originally by: darius mclever 2nd proposal: what kind of use would missile range skills have then? i think the normal warp mechanics should apply here, meaning missiles should only warp if the target is 150+km away. all in all i think missiles are fine. ravens are good at killing support. Would still be quite useful for rockets/heavy assault/torpedo/citadel torpedo and would also still increase the maximum range of all missiles. :) 150KM+ makes sense though, yes. I would still give the missile an 'arming' time, I don't think they should warp straight out of the chute, 'yanno what I mean? ------ I'll make a sig later.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.26 18:57:00 - [4] The re-targeting aspect would only be the feasible solution... but only if it requires skills... and an additional High Slot and or Mid Slot other than the launcher. Such a thing would be a bit overkill and would threaten balance if some sort of penalty wasn't in place. When I used missiles heavily I've always frowned when I wasted a salvo of Torps or Missiles when the target was destroyed or off grid. If you where getting aggro'd the missiles should retarget... what happens if you getting repped? Well thats aggro under the mechanics to a degree. So you got a few things to work out. All in all this could be a can of worms. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Jim Raynor Caldari Sinister Corporation	Posted - 2010.01.26 18:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Drake Draconis The re-targeting aspect would only be the feasible solution... but only if it requires skills... and an additional High Slot and or Mid Slot other than the launcher. Such a thing would be a bit overkill and would threaten balance if some sort of penalty wasn't in place. When I used missiles heavily I've always frowned when I wasted a salvo of Torps or Missiles when the target was destroyed or off grid. If you where getting aggro'd the missiles should retarget... what happens if you getting repped? Well thats aggro under the mechanics to a degree. So you got a few things to work out. All in all this could be a can of worms. Flag secondary targets with overview? ------ I'll make a sig later.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.26 19:10:00 - [6] Could work. :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.26 22:18:00 - [7] What if missiles were shot out from the launchers like normal turrets,but they wont reach the target only appear like 50km before the target then the missiles would travel from there to hit the target the same way as they do it now. Ofcourse the flight time would get a decrease according to target distance. So it wouldnt matter if the target is 50km away or 200km away , the missiles would have the same delay time. The re-targeting system seems too complicated and imho bad for lag.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.01.27 00:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Naomi Knight What if missiles were shot out from the launchers like normal turrets,but they wont reach the target only appear like 50km before the target then the missiles would travel from there to hit the target the same way as they do it now. Ofcourse the flight time would get a decrease according to target distance. So it wouldnt matter if the target is 50km away or 200km away , the missiles would have the same delay time. The re-targeting system seems too complicated and imho bad for lag. Your idea would make lag far worse than retargeting. Your asking for missiles to spawn off-grid and on-grid at a "supposed random" location and then to seek a target and hit said target provided the target is there to begin with... a target likely moving. Might want to think about that a bit. :) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Brengholl	Posted - 2010.01.27 01:54:00 - [9] Edited by: Brengholl on 27/01/2010 01:55:20 NO... what would be the drawback of missiles then compared to guns currently they do decent dps and dont worry about tracking, and most of the missiles dont worry about range either i would support this if say a BS sized cruise missile would have a speed of 300m/s so a cruiser can outrun it... just like it can outmanuver a BSs guns but that way the change would be as much of a nerf as your proposal is an unneeded boost edit... i wont eaven start about the warping missiles
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.27 08:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Brengholl Edited by: Brengholl on 27/01/2010 01:55:20 NO... what would be the drawback of missiles then compared to guns currently they do decent dps and dont worry about tracking, and most of the missiles dont worry about range either i would support this if say a BS sized cruise missile would have a speed of 300m/s so a cruiser can outrun it... just like it can outmanuver a BSs guns but that way the change would be as much of a nerf as your proposal is an unneeded boost edit... i wont eaven start about the warping missiles I see you have never used missiles then. Missiles dont have to worry about tracking? the stupidest thing I heared so far , missiles are more penalized by targets speed than guns, same with range for delay dmg. They dont do decent dps if you add on their disadvantages,thats why nobody uses missiles at long range. Drake Draconis: Why would my idea worse for lag? Missiles only spawn closer to target not at the missile ship, +1 animation between them thats all. The retarget thing would be the laggy one ,but that is an assumption as we dont know how the game is programed.
Syringe Incura	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Naomi Knight They dont do decent dps if you add on their disadvantages,thats why nobody uses missiles at long range. Nobody uses missiles because strategically they don't make sense. Can't hold a tackle at long range, and guns do instant damage at range. Why would you want to leave your snipers at a perch for the entire time it takes a missile to travel 100km so that you can hit the target that may or may not be there anymore. To say that nobody uses missiles because of their low DPS is a bit of a farce. --------- War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Syringe Originally by: Naomi Knight They dont do decent dps if you add on their disadvantages,thats why nobody uses missiles at long range. Nobody uses missiles because strategically they don't make sense. Can't hold a tackle at long range, and guns do instant damage at range. Why would you want to leave your snipers at a perch for the entire time it takes a missile to travel 100km so that you can hit the target that may or may not be there anymore. To say that nobody uses missiles because of their low DPS is a bit of a farce. I havent wrote that missiles have low dps , I wrote missiles dont have enought dps to even out their disadvantages at long range. It doesnt matter if you have a weapon which has much better dps than the other weapon if it cant realistically apply that dmg like blaster is fleets/missions.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.27 11:12:00 - [13] Warping missiles sounds extremely awesome but it would be overpowered with existing missile stats :P Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one?
Tragu	Posted - 2010.01.27 11:29:00 - [14] On trying to think of a comment to make for this, the only thing i could think of when i was about to hit post reply was: All trollish ideas, better have a serious one. So this is my actual try. The missile Re-targeting is seriously needed, for PvP and PvE, during a mission is is so annoying to see 6+ missiles just fly off into space when there are ships just next to it that i am already targeting that those 6 would really help in killing... Just as long as you don't make the AI like FOF, i don't want it randomly targeting my drones. I had another idea for the warping missiles, but that to sounded trollish...
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.27 13:03:00 - [15] fof missiles could warp. not sure.. Let missiles re-target to watever you paint with a traget painter only. So whatever you yourself paint with a TP the missiles go to it if previous target vanishes.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.27 14:40:00 - [16] I will get the teleporting ability for my drones too?
Rastino	Posted - 2010.01.27 15:47:00 - [17] Edited by: Rastino on 27/01/2010 15:47:22 Sorry to say this but both suggestion one and two are awful. Missiles have no tracking penalties like turrets. The price you pay for this is that missiles some times donÆt hit target either because said target warps or gets destroyed. IÆm equally annoyed when my turrets fail to hit small fast moving targets. ThatÆs the price I pay for instant damage. Yes I know that you can fit modules to make turret tracking better but by doing that you take up some mid or low slots, witch could be used for other things.
Fengo Marr Tenacious Tendencies	Posted - 2010.01.27 15:59:00 - [18] I think people have to accept that this can be considered one of the penalties for missile use. As has been said, sometimes turrets miss completely, wasting ammo - should turret users be guaranteed a 100% hit rate as well? Not supported - missiles would become too overpowered.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.27 18:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Fengo Marr I think people have to accept that this can be considered one of the penalties for missile use. As has been said, sometimes turrets miss completely, wasting ammo - should turret users be guaranteed a 100% hit rate as well? Not supported - missiles would become too overpowered. First try out missiles in fleet then come back to tell us how usefull you were. I love when people posting about things they have no idea how they work at all.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.27 20:26:00 - [20] If you're Caldari and want to take part in a Long Range BS fight then train for a Rokh. I'm sick of people wanting to homogenise all of the races, weapons and nuances in this game. Guns are not missiles and missiles are not guns, they both have their pros and cons.
Rastino	Posted - 2010.01.27 21:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Fengo Marr I think people have to accept that this can be considered one of the penalties for missile use. As has been said, sometimes turrets miss completely, wasting ammo - should turret users be guaranteed a 100% hit rate as well? Not supported - missiles would become too overpowered. First try out missiles in fleet then come back to tell us how usefull you were. I love when people posting about things they have no idea how they work at all. Thug you where not quoting me I thing I will dignify that with an answer. I personally fly Minmatar, Caldare and Galente. If I ever brought a missile ship to at fleet fight I would ask me fleet mates to primary me just for bringing that Missiles suck in large fleet pvp. Go to DOTLAN en se the kill mails after a large 0.0 battleà I bet you most people fly Amar and Minmatar closely followed by Galente. If you want to do better in fleets my advice would be to train for Minmatar. Minmatar skips are extremely versatile and have a high DPS or ALPHA if you have just a sleight of how to fitt them.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.27 22:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Rastino Thug you where not quoting me I thing I will dignify that with an answer. I personally fly Minmatar, Caldare and Galente. If I ever brought a missile ship to at fleet fight I would ask me fleet mates to primary me just for bringing that Missiles suck in large fleet pvp. Go to DOTLAN en se the kill mails after a large 0.0 battleà I bet you most people fly Amar and Minmatar closely followed by Galente. If you want to do better in fleets my advice would be to train for Minmatar. Minmatar skips are extremely versatile and have a high DPS or ALPHA if you have just a sleight of how to fitt them. Everybody knows that fleet fights are for amarr > matar ships. This is the problem the long range missiles+ caldari missile boats were designed for fleet fights in mind. Thats why the huge range they can operate at, but because missile sux at long range these cant do their intended roles. Is there any reason to use a cerb/nighthawk/raven in fleets?Not realy. So eighter they should change those to be good at close-medium range or fix missiles at long range. Because other races were designed for the close-medium range , I would go with the fix missiles part. Oh and crosstraining is not a solution or an option.
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.27 22:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Rastino Thug you where not quoting me I thing I will dignify that with an answer. I personally fly Minmatar, Caldare and Galente. If I ever brought a missile ship to at fleet fight I would ask me fleet mates to primary me just for bringing that Missiles suck in large fleet pvp. Go to DOTLAN en se the kill mails after a large 0.0 battleà I bet you most people fly Amar and Minmatar closely followed by Galente. If you want to do better in fleets my advice would be to train for Minmatar. Minmatar skips are extremely versatile and have a high DPS or ALPHA if you have just a sleight of how to fitt them. Everybody knows that fleet fights are for amarr > matar ships. This is the problem the long range missiles+ caldari missile boats were designed for fleet fights in mind. Thats why the huge range they can operate at, but because missile sux at long range these cant do their intended roles. Is there any reason to use a cerb/nighthawk/raven in fleets?Not realy. So eighter they should change those to be good at close-medium range or fix missiles at long range. Because other races were designed for the close-medium range , I would go with the fix missiles part. Oh and crosstraining is not a solution or an option. Are you retired? Missile boats are particularly good at close ranges. Just because they get a range bonus doesn't mean they are 'long range' only. It also means they can utilise their close range weapon systems at longer ranges than their counterparts. And why is cross training not an option? Should all the races be able to do everything? Of course not. Please for the love of Black Jesus stop trying to dumb the game down.
Rastino	Posted - 2010.01.27 22:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Rastino Thug you where not quoting me I thing I will dignify that with an answer. I personally fly Minmatar, Caldare and Galente. If I ever brought a missile ship to at fleet fight I would ask me fleet mates to primary me just for bringing that Missiles suck in large fleet pvp. Go to DOTLAN en se the kill mails after a large 0.0 battleà I bet you most people fly Amar and Minmatar closely followed by Galente. If you want to do better in fleets my advice would be to train for Minmatar. Minmatar skips are extremely versatile and have a high DPS or ALPHA if you have just a sleight of how to fitt them. Everybody knows that fleet fights are for amarr > matar ships. This is the problem the long range missiles+ caldari missile boats were designed for fleet fights in mind. Thats why the huge range they can operate at, but because missile sux at long range these cant do their intended roles. Is there any reason to use a cerb/nighthawk/raven in fleets?Not realy. So eighter they should change those to be good at close-medium range or fix missiles at long range. Because other races were designed for the close-medium range , I would go with the fix missiles part. Oh and crosstraining is not a solution or an option. Are you retired? Missile boats are particularly good at close ranges. Just because they get a range bonus doesn't mean they are 'long range' only. It also means they can utilise their close range weapon systems at longer ranges than their counterparts. And why is cross training not an option? Should all the races be able to do everything? Of course not. Please for the love of Black Jesus stop trying to dumb the game down. Thisà and give me just one good reason why cross training is not an option?
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.27 23:24:00 - [25] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 27/01/2010 23:24:22 Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Are you retired? Missile boats are particularly good at close ranges. Just because they get a range bonus doesn't mean they are 'long range' only. It also means they can utilise their close range weapon systems at longer ranges than their counterparts. And why is cross training not an option? Should all the races be able to do everything? Of course not. Please for the love of Black Jesus stop trying to dumb the game down. retired huh? no and you? missile boats are particularly good at close range? realy? like the cerb is good with hams+ tackle gear ? cross trainging is bad for diversity and balance everybody knows that Should all races be able to do everything? hmm what about caldari should be able do its inteded tactic which is long range , oh and put matar back to their place by nerfing arties at least they should not be able to do everything according to you Black Jesus? it is so wrong dumb the game down? so asking for balance is dumbing the game down? why? because then other races then matar/amarr would be viable? pls stop trolling
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.27 23:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 27/01/2010 23:24:22 Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Are you retired? Missile boats are particularly good at close ranges. Just because they get a range bonus doesn't mean they are 'long range' only. It also means they can utilise their close range weapon systems at longer ranges than their counterparts. And why is cross training not an option? Should all the races be able to do everything? Of course not. Please for the love of Black Jesus stop trying to dumb the game down. retired huh? no and you? missile boats are particularly good at close range? realy? like the cerb is good with hams+ tackle gear ? cross trainging is bad for diversity and balance everybody knows that Should all races be able to do everything? hmm what about caldari should be able do its inteded tactic which is long range , oh and put matar back to their place by nerfing arties at least they should not be able to do everything according to you Black Jesus? it is so wrong dumb the game down? so asking for balance is dumbing the game down? why? because then other races then matar/amarr would be viable? pls stop trolling Stop sperging out bro. Yes, a Cerb is good with HAMs and tackle gear and is also an excellent HML platform for stand off support in small to medium sized gangs. Please tell me what other HAC is capable of 500+ DPS at 40+km. If you want to fly a Caldari BS in a long range 'fleet fight' then fly a Rokh or a Scorp. You will have no problem applying instant DPS or effects. Protip: There's more to PVP than long range 0.0 slugfests and not everyone is inclined to use the traditional sniper fleets for those, in fact since joining a 0.0 entity I haven't once fitted long range guns on my BS. I happen to fly all races and I'm perfectly happy with the performance of Caldari and missile boats in general. Please learn to play, then learn to spell and then stop trolling me.
Rastino	Posted - 2010.01.28 01:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 27/01/2010 23:24:22 Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Are you retired? Missile boats are particularly good at close ranges. Just because they get a range bonus doesn't mean they are 'long range' only. It also means they can utilise their close range weapon systems at longer ranges than their counterparts. And why is cross training not an option? Should all the races be able to do everything? Of course not. Please for the love of Black Jesus stop trying to dumb the game down. retired huh? no and you? missile boats are particularly good at close range? realy? like the cerb is good with hams+ tackle gear ? cross trainging is bad for diversity and balance everybody knows that Should all races be able to do everything? hmm what about caldari should be able do its inteded tactic which is long range , oh and put matar back to their place by nerfing arties at least they should not be able to do everything according to you Black Jesus? it is so wrong dumb the game down? so asking for balance is dumbing the game down? why? because then other races then matar/amarr would be viable? pls stop trolling Cross training is bad for balance? WTFà This is EVE not WOW Cross training makes you a more versatile pilot. The more skips you can fly the tricks you have up your sleeve. To be honest it sounds like you have no clue what your talking about. The purpose of most Caldari missile boats are long range PVE (In my book) If you want a PvP sniper fleet go Amar or Minmatar. Or at stated above go for a caldari gum boat they are there you know. If you fly Caldari and only use missiles you can only use half the ships. That would be like flying Minmatar and training the following. Gunnery skills, Missile skills, Drone skills, Shield tanking skills and Armour tanking skills.
Aveng3X Caldari Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.28 01:14:00 - [28] So... what you're saying is: Remove the drawbacks of having high DPS at 200km range and the diversity of weapon systems in doing so, Make missiles act like fighters without needing to train for a carrier. You don't want to waste Caldari Navy Scourge Missiles if your target warps away. These changes would make being a Caldari player even easier, and even more boring. __________________________
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:15:00 - [29] I've always desliked the way missile spray wastes huge amounts of dps at any range. I support your first proposal. I think that any unexploded missiles ( of the firing ship ) should attack the next target you activate your launchers on as the firing ship still has control of those missiles.
Aynen	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:31:00 - [30] I was wondering if warping missles might only work for torpedos and citadel size missles, which also means they'd be only really effective against larger targets. The idea behind it is that smaller sized ship engagements are not affected. (besides, it makes sense that only really big missles/torpedos are big enough to fit a warpdrive on them anyway.) It, however, also paves the way for a person with a laser pointer to target a ship that his buddy, who is orbiting another planet in the system could then fire his missles at. The missles warp to the planet where the target is being pointed, et voilß. Your thoughts?

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