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Investment Security?(an idea for the high rollers)

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Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:03:00 - [1] I know a lot of you big traders are having trouble putting isk into investments, I am aware that that you all have billions already tied up in long term investments and private loans. But I come to offer a new form of investing that you may just be able to pull off and may benift all the investors in he MD. What I am here to propose is investment insurance. People pay to have there investments secured by someone with a big wallet. Investment security would be a small scale, big investments can be manipulated for a total drainage of ones wallet, security measures would be taken. I would like to see if this would work or not. Discuss
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:11:00 - [2] nice idea too complicated for internet spaceships
Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:14:00 - [3] Originally by: SetrakDark nice idea too complicated for internet spaceships hate to break it to you setrak but I think were smart enough to pull it off.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:25:00 - [4] rofl no
Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:30:00 - [5] Edited by: Lord Meltdown on 27/01/2010 05:31:11 Yes, it would require work, not saying it will be easy. Now stop trolling, add something constructive. Edit: iPhone keyboard spelling fixed
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:33:00 - [6] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 27/01/2010 05:33:11 I work in insurance and if you're interested in putting money into insurance, there are plenty of ways to do it - Break the CCP monopoly on ship insurance Insure Titans Insure POS's Offer security insurance to corporations for war-decs Insure cargo Insure pods and implants Insurance for ships in EVE is worth literally trillions of isk per year. No-one has ever tried to break into the market or challenge the CCP inefficient monopoly. Finally, the blueprint holding scheme suggested by Cista2 could be used to insure assets - making money even though it is tied up. However, insuring risky investments is a no-go area. If you want to put big money into insurance, find the safe ship pilots and insure them cheaper than the CCP price
RJ Nobel Nobel Research and Development	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:34:00 - [7] The investment market would have to be several orders of magnitude more secure before insurance of this type could have any chance at being profitable. Running the numbers for an insurance model isn't very difficult - do so and you'll see how incredibly high the insurance premiums would have to be to make a profit.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Meltdown add somethring constructive. To what? Your 1/16th baked idea?
Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.27 05:44:00 - [9] I was shooting for smaller investments, say >5 billion isk bonds/loans. Charge anywhere between 10-20% of the total investment that needs to be secured. This has nothing to do with in-game insurance, this idea can be a possible money maker for those with an excessive amount of isk.
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.27 15:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 27/01/2010 05:33:11 I work in insurance and if you're interested in putting money into insurance, there are plenty of ways to do it - Break the CCP monopoly on ship insurance The reason CCP has a monopoly on ship insurance, is because it operates at a loss. Players would give up and move on, but an NPC will hand out unlimited isk. The difference between real life and video games. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m

Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.27 15:08:00 - [11] Originally by: RJ Nobel The investment market would have to be several orders of magnitude more secure before insurance of this type could have any chance at being profitable. This. We'd need some statistics that would help to realize that the profit:loss ratio is tipped on the profit side. For example, if the majority of cars got into crashes and insurance had to pay out to all of them, then they'd be running at a loss. In Eve some of the biggest investments (EBank, DBank, etc) have failed, probably tipping the ratio heavily on the loss side (though I have no real numbers for this opinion). Now, I think people can profit individually from investments, the smart people, that choose the smart investments and are smart/lucky enough to miss the failures. But on a whole, I don't think it'd work. Not to mention that any kind of insurance in this regard would make people more willing to go after bad investments or likely scams, thinking insurance will cover it if it's a failure, and I don't think that's a place we want to go to (heck, we're too much there already). Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Mme Pinkerton Eschaton Industries	Posted - 2010.01.27 16:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Lord Meltdown hate to break it to you setrak but I think were smart enough to pull it off. then just do it. run the numbers, write a convincing business plan and secure the necessary funding. so far your posts bring absolutely nothing new or relevant to the table (and btw - cosmoray has already insured several offerings) come back when you actually have something to show for; don't expect MD to write your business plan.
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2010.01.27 21:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 27/01/2010 05:33:11 I work in insurance and if you're interested in putting money into insurance, there are plenty of ways to do it - Break the CCP monopoly on ship insurance I hope you're not involved in a decision-making capacity.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.01.27 22:43:00 - [14] Competing with in game insurance is crazy hard.. Hexxx and I have a fully working plan for Insurance in EVE, it's highly refined, Hexxx is programing the back end code and the front end. I developed an insurance model that according to 500 randomized slot over 18 months produces a profit off just the insurance, no need to work the ISK. As part of that design we've been thinking pretty heavily on selling securities for the policies or policy bundles. Once you live and breath thinking about how to compete with CCP's insurance you'll come to the same conclusion I did in terms of idea and concept. How to make that work is another story. Fortunately it's already done. :) A nice Excel sheet which Hexxx is converting to Code on the website (I think). While the website and EVE Insurance is still not ready because Hexxx is not going to make the same mistakes as he has in the past. The design I came up with allows you to literally pick what percentage of in-game market value you want your payout to be and it calculates a premium based off that. While at the same time making it IMPOSSIBLE for people to exploit without heavy losses to themselves well before EVE Insurance start making a loss. We're considering adding the ability to "sell" policy bundles as options if we ever get short on liquidity. So give it some time and the high-rollers will be able to gamble on risk soon enough. :) Amarr for Life
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:03:00 - [15] Originally by: SencneS While the website and EVE Insurance is still not ready because Hexxx is not going to make the same mistakes as he has in the past. How... reassuring. Quote: The design I came up with ... mak[es] it IMPOSSIBLE for people to exploit without heavy losses to themselves well before EVE Insurance start making a loss. It was pointed out to me, quite correctly, that there is no such thing as zero risk. Nothing is impossible, in caps or not. Quote: We're considering adding the ability to "sell" policy bundles as options if we ever get short on liquidity. So give it some time and the high-rollers will be able to gamble on risk soon enough. :) Do either you or Hexxx have RL operational experience in the insurance sector? Do either of you have RL financial experience in some field? If not, have you had your models thoroughly vetted by players with RL experience in those fields? If the answer to those questions is no, then you and any investors may well be heading for a very nasty fall.
Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:14:00 - [16] Edited by: Lord Meltdown on 28/01/2010 02:16:57 If you and hexXx need a fresh eye send me a mail and I'd be glad to help out/re-read/find loopholes in your plan. Though I don't quite agree with the above post, eve doesn't need a 100k a year financial expert to figure out simple insurance
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:20:00 - [17] Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 28/01/2010 02:20:44 Originally by: Varo Jan Quote: The design I came up with ... mak[es] it IMPOSSIBLE for people to exploit without heavy losses to themselves well before EVE Insurance start making a loss. It was pointed out to me, quite correctly, that there is no such thing as zero risk. Nothing is impossible, in caps or not. You're right about investments, but she was talking her design. In theory, according to the rules of her model, she's saying it's impossible. And she's saying it's impossible for their clients to abuse the system they've designed without taking heavy losses first. In practice, Hexx could run with the ISK and not payout, someone could hack their site, etc, so there is always some risk. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Dretzle Omega You're right about investments, but she was talking her design. In theory, according to the rules of her model, she's saying it's impossible. And she's saying it's impossible for their clients to abuse the system they've designed without taking heavy losses first. So system designs are infallible? You must be joking.
Lord Meltdown Caldari The Wraith Templar Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 02:51:00 - [19] the 2 above posts i will agree to, people will go to great lengths for virtual moneyz in seriouz internetz spaceshipz
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2010.01.28 03:42:00 - [20] Here's my fantasy idea: One of the big alliances (Goonswarm, -A-, y'know. That big) goes into the bondsman / loan shark business. Here's how it would work: 1) An established character(s) with plenty to lose - in corporations, assets, towers, etc. - wants to expand their operations. They decide to look for public investments, and they offer to get an insurance bond from MegaBondsAreUs alliance (ticker: SHARK). 2) The investment manager gives SHARK 10% of the total public investment. This is non-refundable. SHARK then guarantees the full amount of the investment. SHARK may or may not require one of their alts take possession as CEO, or at least Director. SHARK may require a full API key to perform their own initial audit of the player before approving the insurance bond. 3) SHARK then requires regular financial statements (at least monthly). 4) If the investment manager scams, SHARK then pays out the investment, and makes EVE a living hell for that player. The player's main, and all alts, are then subjected to hi-sec suicide ganks, low-sec and null-sec pursecution, possible corp infiltration of other operations, and a serious taunting. SHARK may initially balk at repaying the investment, simply to gain time before fatally screwing the player's other operations. Again, this is my fantasy. There are a number of scenarios where this arrangement would fail to protect the investment. But imagining the figurative 'jaws of hell' engulfing an incredulous scammer just warms my heart on these cold winter nights. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins

Tradell Fiasco Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.01.28 03:43:00 - [21] Edited by: Tradell Fiasco on 28/01/2010 03:45:57 I'm not a big poster so my ideas are probably not relevant, I think its a nice idea, but it just wouldn't work. Someone mentioned earlier that you can insure titans, t2 ships, pirate battleships and pos reasons why it might not work consumers who mostly use that service will be using that service are going to be mostly pvp'ers and people who have a pos in contested regions. With so many wars going on and the fact this is a space ship game, most people are not going to be worried about loosing ship. Even the most basic principle of insurance, your hoping to make money from ships not being destroyed. It works in the real world but not in a space ship game im afraid since its just going to be exploited by pvp'ers. The real world doesnt encourage you go round killing people and smashing peoples homes and cars like eve does. i'm aware you guys were talking about a system where it would be impossible for people to exploit the system without taking heavy losses. I'm guessing your going to be placing heavy premiums on ship losses first, i guess thats gonna deter pvp'ers. Hmm I think I nice thing you could do would be to target the Mission Runner Market and Faction ships and t2 battleships, since there currently uninsurable and you could add clauses where a much higher premium is paid depending on the security system the ship was lost in to deter them from taking there ships to low sec, something following the ccp model would be good, and modules being uinsurable
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Dretzle Omega You're right about investments, but she was talking her design. In theory, according to the rules of her model, she's saying it's impossible. And she's saying it's impossible for their clients to abuse the system they've designed without taking heavy losses first. So system designs are infallible? You must be joking. No, theoretical system designs can be infallible. It's the putting the into practice that carries risk of failure. You seem to be lashing out due to some hurt feelings on comments in your thread? I'm not saying that's the case, but that's what appearances look like. The main difference between her statement and yours is they're still in the theory/design stage, where less real world factors come into play, and they're not yet putting forth their proposal. You made your statements in your proposal when you were trying to put it into practice. She's making the statement about hardware and software and mechanics which, barring bugged software and unforeseen external events like hardware failure or hacking, can be infallible (in theory, of course, which is what she was talking about; there's no such thing as bug free software). You made your comments about another person, which is always fallible, and a plan which, in theory if not in practice, did have some possible flaws, however unlikely. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Dretzle Omega No, theoretical system designs can be infallible. It's the putting the into practice that carries risk of failure. You seem to be lashing out due to some hurt feelings on comments in your thread? I'm not saying that's the case, but that's what appearances look like. The main difference ... Dretzle, you¦re nitpicking now and making erroneous assumptions about my state of mind and motivation. Pointless is pointless. Shall we move on?
Professor Bunsen Optech Scientific	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Drab Cane 4) If the investment manager scams, SHARK then pays out the investment, and makes EVE a living hell for that player... and a serious taunting. That would certainly keep me on the straight and narrow!
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Dretzle Omega No, theoretical system designs can be infallible. It's the putting the into practice that carries risk of failure. You seem to be lashing out due to some hurt feelings on comments in your thread? I'm not saying that's the case, but that's what appearances look like. The main difference ... Dretzle, you¦re nitpicking now and making erroneous assumptions about my state of mind and motivation. Pointless is pointless. Shall we move on? I was only commenting because I thought you were nitpicking, but yes, pointless discussion is pointless... Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:15:00 - [26] My understanding of Hexxx's ship insurance idea was to secure t2 ships that t1 insurance left largely unfulfilled (and already operates at a loss on). Its conceivable to design the system where it wouldn't be exploited by suicide, the way today's system is. IE only insure half the ship value, or have a heavy deductable. What I cannot conceive, is why a sufficient quantity of players would be interested in such a model to reach the critical mass warranting maintaining a profitable business on such an endeavor. I see month after month people come here and post "What if I launched an insurance business?!". I've never once seen "I'm looking for insurance on X, is anyone selling?" People buy insurance in the real world because they cannot afford to lose certain vital assets. In EVE, on the contrary, people tend to fly what they can afford to lose, anchor what they can afford be attacked, invest what they can afford be scammed. Since any player run insurance system runs the inherent risk of the insurance company scamming, I don't see the availability of such an enterprise empowering anyone to utilize assets they otherwise couldn't afford to lose. Thus, no market. The only people that would use this are those that figured they could make more money than they'd pay out in premiums: PVPers, PVEers in dangerous space, or the market savvy that figure they found a loophole. These are not a good market for insurance: how will you simultaneously convince them they can make isk with your system, while convincing yourself they will not? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Dzil how will you simultaneously convince them they can make isk with your system, while convincing yourself they will not? Market it to carebears? Those flying Golems and CNRs and Hulks don't get insurance, either, but they don't lose their ships nearly as often as PvPers, either. Insurance works in the real world because people want to be compensated on the chance that something might happen, and statistically something doesn't happen to everyone, so the insurance company makes their money, too. (In theory, in practice insurance companies will do whatever they can to not pay, too. ) So, I assume with that inuuring PvPers who are planning on losing their ship won't really be feasible... Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:46:00 - [28] Edited by: SencneS on 28/01/2010 19:53:04 Dzil makes the perfect point there is great concern about actual usage of any insurance system. Trust, both Hexxx who admitted failure for EBANK and myself the last surviving old BOD of EBANK. Both of us are surrounded by a mountain of troll posts and our names aren't shining beacons of trust and respect even if the inner light is pure. To answer Varo Jan - No, the only experience I have with insurance in real life is my own House and Car Insurance policies. So :p~~ The model is not infallible and the risk of utter failure is there of cause, what is IMPOSSIBLE is for people to exploit the system to turn a profit. They'll be taking MASSIVE losses. edit:- I didn't see this until I posted. "how will you simultaneously convince them they can make isk with your system, while convincing yourself they will not?" That's the big question - how do you make it attractive enough for people to want to insure with you but at the same time prevent them from exploiting. This question was one of the biggest ones we had an the reason we developed close to 30 different insurance models before finally coming up with this ONE.. Amarr for Life
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:09:00 - [29] Originally by: SencneS Trust, both Hexxx who admitted failure for EBANK and myself the last surviving old BOD of EBANK. Both of us are surrounded by a mountain of troll posts and our names aren't shining beacons of trust and respect even if the inner light is pure. I don¦t doubt your sincerity, SencneS. I do have major reservations about Hexxx¦s competence. Quote: To answer Varo Jan - No, the only experience I have with insurance in real life is my own House and Car Insurance policies. So :p~~ So take advice. There are people here with insurance backgrounds. It won¦t hurt, will it? Quote: what is IMPOSSIBLE is for people to exploit the system to turn a profit. They'll be taking MASSIVE losses. And what if they¦re not paying what you think they should for their ships?


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