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Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.02 12:00:00 - [1] ITT: People who forgot that Rapiers were and still are the counter to nano***gotry.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:46:00 - [2] One of the issues, in my opinion, is that in order best the Dramiel with another frigate, said other frigate must dedicate 4 midslots (AB, dual web, scram) in order to be able to hold the Dramiel down. Unfortunately, the only frigates with enough midslots to do so are shield tankers with very few lowslots, which renders it tankless and generally unable to actually survive the Dramiel's return fire. I'll admit that my Dramiel very nearly died today to a Harpy with the above midslot configuration. I only survived the engagement because I had a buddy nearby that was able to assist in killing the Harpy. One may argue however that such a Harpy fit has no use outside of baiting and countering Dramiels and is thus moot.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.05 11:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Asuka Smith An incursus would have solod that fit bro This. For beating your chest about how everybody is "terrible" and has "terrible" fits let me be the first to say: That fit is terrible. Look how stupid you are
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 03:54:00 - [4] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 03:54:49 Originally by: Darthewok Dramiel CROWD OUT AND REPLACE virtually all other frigs. Turning a 50+ frig game into a 1 frig 49 inferiors game. That is why it should be nerfed. The Dramiel is on the same level as the other pirate frigates. Of course there's always one that gets the short stick and is considered the worst (Worm), just as there's a worst AF (Hawk) and a worst Interceptor (Raptor). Pirate Frigates are meant to be superior to the other frigate classes, as has been already pointed out several times. What you're experiencing is intended game balance.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:01:00 - [5] Originally by: Darthewok who are you kidding, mr flies only dramiels? I don't only fly Dramiels. Originally by: Darthewok superior sure but not this much superior You want to counter Dramiels? Fly a pirate frigate of your own.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Darthewok Kirzath, flies no other pirate frig but Dramiel, since Dramiel came out 95% of kills in frig in Dramiel. last time flown previously most flown ship taranis was 24th Dec your own record is a fine argument of how Dramiel is CROWDING OUT the use of other frigs. it is pretty clear how after new Dramiel came out, you like a lot of frig pilots, tossed out the use of other frigs and replaced them with Dramiel. If you had looked at our actual active killboard that I linked rather than the one we abandoned a long time ago in order to pull statistics out of your ass, you'd see that my use of frigates is still widely varied. As for flying a Dramiel of your own, please do. There's a saying, "fight fire with fire"?
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Darthewok your last 10 kills since you are concerned i am not looking at latest info. snip Excellent, you picked out all of my kills from a single roam where I happened to have been flying a Dramiel. Originally by: Darthewok i am impressed by the wide variety of frigates used by yourself and by your corpmates. wow! so many non-dramiel frigates! astounding. like i said, EXHIBIT A. Dramiels offer excellent performance, given their elevated price. We can afford them, so why wouldn't we fly them? Originally by: Darthewok once again you prove 50 frigates have been replaced with 1 winner **** GUYS, the Vindicator totally outclasses every other battleship in the game! Vindicator can beat any other BS 1v1. 20 battleships replaced with 1 winner, Vindi must be nerfed c/d?
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:05:00 - [8] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 05:05:59 Originally by: Darthewok vindi does not replace other bs as it is so expensive only a very tiny percentage of eve players can afford one. dramiel does not have that barrier and therefore is replacing other frigs. Yes it does. (Not 100% sure on the price of the Vindi, throwing it out there at 2B) Vindi to average T1 BS price ratio: 1:20 Vindi to average T2 BS price ratio: 1:2 Dramiel to average T1 frig price ratio: 1:200 Dramiel to average T2 frig price ratio: 1:4 In fact, the Frigate -> Dramiel barrier is much more prominent than the BS -> Vindi barrier.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Darthewok ABSOLUTE COST not RELATIVE COST. % of players that can afford Vindi = A % of players that can afford Dramiel = B B >>>>>>>>> A Absolute cost doesn't matter in this case since the Dramiel is only "problematic" in frig vs. frig fights. You're using the argument that the Vindi should be better than other battleships because it's more expensive. Shouldn't that mean that the Dramiel should be better than other frigates because it's more expensive as well?
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:31:00 - [10] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 05:34:35 All that means is that I (and the rest of Genos) have a suitable income to accommodate flying Dramiels so often. Also, it helps that the Dramiel is rather survivable and doesn't need replacing very often. If the Dramiel were any more expensive, why would anyone fly it over a similarly priced ship of a higher class? A Vagabond possesses similar anti-frigate capabilities and survivability at an increased price, while also offering the possibility of engaging much larger targets. If you had the ISK to afford flying fancy faction/T2 battleships with improved performance in PVP over the standard T1 variants, wouldn't you favor the Faction/T2 BSes?

Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:37:00 - [11] I'm not twisting any logic, here. The Dramiel is more expensive than any other frigate, so of course it should be one of the best in its class. You've yet to actually bring up an infallible argument as to why the Dramiel is overpowered.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:45:00 - [12] I call it "one" of the best because the Dramiel is directly countered by the Cruor and the Daredevil. Both of the latter are good at their own roles, but the Dramiel is the most popularily used frigate by Genos because it excels at what we do best: guerrilla warfare.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:14:00 - [13] Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.07 05:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Quote: Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. The thing is Dramiel is neither focused and niche nor is it on par or slightly above them. Theres a fat chasm between them. Dramiels don't obsolete interceptors. Interceptors, as the name suggest, are meant to tackle ** and survive. The Dramiel doesn't get the sig radius reduction, higher scan resolution, tackle cap consumption bonus nor the tackle range bonus. There's also the bonus that a handful of interceptor hulls are easily replaceable with their reasonably low price when ** does hit the fan. Sure, the Dramiel may be faster, but the interceptor's role is generally restricted to catching ships larger than itself that will be slower anyway. It's ability to kill other frigates is just a bonus. Also, good luck getting more DPS and tank out of a Dramiel than out of an Assault frigate.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.07 20:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 This is what you get when you try to make succubus do what dualprop dram can. Import to eft and lol: [Succubus, Suckubus] snip Your mistake is trying to get the Succubus to do what the Dramiel does. They fill different roles. [Succubus, Doing It Right] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Medium Shield Extender II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Small Nosferatu II Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I In fact, this Succubus fit would actually win versus a Dramiel if it wanders in close to commit to the fight.

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