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Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:14:00 - [1] Anyone know of a counter to a dramiel in frigate size class? I can't think of anything that can beat it or any tactics. It's faster than interceptors, dual props usually for versatility, runs a passive shield buffer, does damage/tanks like an AF, even has drones. Sure it costs 70m, but I can't think of anything that can beat it in its weight class. I even thought of the daredevil with its 90% web, but the thing is the dramiel will pack a neut. capping you out in 50 seconds, making you dead in the water. Maybe a slicer and exploit its range/tank but no it still has far lower dps, and will get ****d. Dramiel seems to be able to disengage at will if situation turns dire, hell it can run around in scram range also since it has a afterburner that moves at freaking 2km/s. Even neuts don't seem to be very good wards either, since the guns dont need cap. [Dramiel, New Setup 3] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Gyrostabilizer II Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Core Defence Field Extender II Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Small Ancillary Current Router I Warrior II x3 Anyone got any ideas? Only thing I could come up with was a aml caracal using 1 heavy missile launcher to bait them into double web/scram range. Bc's, it can just disengage easy if things turn sour.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:24:00 - [2] Just theorycrafting here, but it is possible to pin a Dramiel down with a faction webs fitted Daredevil, and then just pelt it with medium range weapons. Its neuts won't reach outside of 6k, so you can just take your time to widdle down its hp.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:31:00 - [3] Dramiel is flavor of the month. There are a number of dramiel pilots littering our killboard friendly and enemy.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:40:00 - [4] Rail daredevil counters it just fine. You can take this fit as concept; cost can be decreased by using top named/t2, but some faction stuff still remains as 'a must' - it doesn't have enough cpu for cheap fittings.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 27/01/2010 07:54:28 Hmm, I never thought of a rail daredevil, clever. So basically you gotta straddle the very thin line of being outside of the 6.2km neut range ,and the 9km scram range? Anyone got a killmail using such a fit? Also thats so ridiculous you need an even more expensive ship to beat the dramiel, and a specialized daredevil fit to boot. So like this? [Daredevil, New Setup 2] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] Small Trimark Armor Pump II Small Trimark Armor Pump II Small Trimark Armor Pump II Also I looked at the dramiel again, it'll have time to switch to barrages, which it should anyhow for a blaster ship, and it still will be hurting you the whole time with only slightly reduced dps. It would end up really close again imo. And you need a daredevil with triple t2 trimarks to compete buffer wise which is kinda ridiculous.
Hrisantema	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:52:00 - [6] how about a nos to conter its neut
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.01.27 07:53:00 - [7] clearly an OP ship with little to no weaknesses compared to anything in its class. if you can't beat them join them and fly one of these horned irritants too.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.01.27 08:10:00 - [8] Worth pointing out that the slicer doesn't have "far lower dps" than a dramiel - your fit + 3 warriors deals 179, compared to a slicer's 172 with medium pulse + heat sink + faction multifreq. Slicer may or may not win depending on the range the fight starts at and fits, and it is much slower (1700+m/s slower depending on fits), but damage isn't the issue. Also for a hypothetical daredevil v. dramiel match, I doubt the neut is the problem, cuase I doubt the fight will last that long either way. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.01.27 08:31:00 - [9] Dramiel is a nerf waiting to happen. It has superior speed, drones, slot layout, ample damage, tracking .. you name it Originally by: Terianna Eri Worth pointing out that the slicer doesn't have "far lower dps" than a dramiel - your fit + 3 warriors deals 179, compared to a slicer's 172 with medium pulse + heat sink + faction multifreq. Slicer may or may not win depending on the range the fight starts at and fits, and it is much slower (1700+m/s slower depending on fits), but damage isn't the issue. Also for a hypothetical daredevil v. dramiel match, I doubt the neut is the problem, cuase I doubt the fight will last that long either way. Slicer won't win period. MPII DPS versus a Dramiel is 30-40 max once the infernal tracking formula has taken its pound of flesh, been there done that. You need DLP to even have a chance of taking it to armour, but winning is only going to happen if the Dramiel messes up. Best counter for Dramiel's is anything with high tracking like a Thrasher .. in ships with less you need dual-webs so bringing buddies is often the best alternative. PS: Yes I hate the filthy things with a vengeance, at least people get to pay through the nose for them
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet	Posted - 2010.01.27 08:51:00 - [10] Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC

Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:05:00 - [11] Faction frigate balance is really screwed up tbh. Compare the Daredevil and Dramiel with trash like the Hookbill and Worm...
HrunTheBarbarian	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:07:00 - [12] IF you managed to catch one at the right range with a sentinel you could hold it relatively still and be safe from the guns, but then you've just gotta hope the dramiel pilot doesn't just wipe out all of your drones. Seems like that ship has a huge amount of gtfo potential...
Jadokun	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel. QFT. I saw this first hand. rawr!!
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:51:00 - [14] Hmm, looking at the cruor, yea I guess this could be a good counter to the dramiel. You get the increased velocity factor on the web, and you can maintain range with lasers. However the dramiel will still be pumping you with damage since autos have pretty good range/falloff still and the drones. Not sure if the cruor will be able to tank it long enough/enough buffer but I think it will with a nos and a small repper and 400mm plate. But still the dps looks rather paltry. I guess its a race vs. time/dramiel's dps. Not entirely sure how it'll play out though.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.27 09:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/01/2010 09:55:58 Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Hmm, I never thought of a rail daredevil, clever. So basically you gotta straddle the very thin line of being outside of the 6.2km neut range ,and the 9km scram range? More like a 9km+ (if you can overheat scram/have faction one). Daredevil controls the distance, so when speeds are dropped and if you're >3-5 km away from it - most likely that you won. As for your fitting - i prefer DPS over tank, so for me t2 aerator is better choice (also it helps to break active tanks). Besides, it doesn't cost much if you manufacture it yourself. Originally by: Terianna Eri [Thrasher, solo] Yea, shield trasher (400 dps) and sabre (~500 dps) also should be able to handle it. Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel. Just like sentinel. It's capable of killing dramiel, but it will take decent time to do it. Originally by: Jadokun Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel. QFT. I saw this first hand. I saw crusader killing Dramiel with classic setup, so what? Actually, imo cruor isn't best choice vs dramiel.
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Intigo on 27/01/2010 10:12:21 Killing a Dramiel is easy enough. Finding a ship that fills the same roles as a well-flown Dramiel is, on the other hand, impossible. Edit: Also, haha - Cruor is a terrible ship. Anyone competent will never come near you and it's slow as a brick. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/01/2010 09:55:58 More like a 9km+ (if you can overheat scram/have faction one). Daredevil controls the distance, so when speeds are dropped and if you're >3-5 km away from it - most likely that you won. As for your fitting - i prefer DPS over tank, so for me t2 aerator is better choice (also it helps to break active tanks). Besides, it doesn't cost much if you manufacture it yourself. So wait, you need a 120m faction frigate, with rail fittings not standard blaster fit, and a faction scram and faction web? Thats ****ed right there if you need all that just to kill a dramiel. The 6.2 to 9km is with normal gear. If I want to operate at farther ranges to be safer and guarantee the win I need to fork out that much more just to kill the dramiel? Thats beyond ****ed. And yes, the cruor to me is a weird ship to me (I wouldn't fly one), but with the bonuses it theoretically looks like it could take out the dramiel. It's not like a sentinel who's drones can get shot down. I dunno, I think I'm just bitter mostly cause its faster than interceptors, thats not right imo. Everything else could be okay, I just want the suckers slower.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:40:00 - [18] so your saying that fastest faction frig is hard to kill? thats a supprise. perhaps its just not viable to reliably solo this ship, im sure a combo of 2 or more frigs could do it with ease. Dont start saying this ship is overpowered because you cant solo it and no i dont fly a dramiel. I tryed running some DPS graphs with tracking disrupt bonused ships, the sentinel can do it on paper. The curour also is a good choice the issue you have is that a good dramiel pilot will not engage these ships. Baiting is a good idea but again cant work every time because its up to the dramiel pilot to attack or not. Looked into the not-so-often-seen light navy cruisers and they might be able to maintain enough speed and tackling to get the job done too.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:47:00 - [19] A sentinel stops it in its tracks.
Terianna Eri Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.01.27 10:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Dramiel is a nerf waiting to happen. It has superior speed, drones, slot layout, ample damage, tracking .. you name it Originally by: Terianna Eri Worth pointing out that the slicer doesn't have "far lower dps" than a dramiel - your fit + 3 warriors deals 179, compared to a slicer's 172 with medium pulse + heat sink + faction multifreq. Slicer may or may not win depending on the range the fight starts at and fits, and it is much slower (1700+m/s slower depending on fits), but damage isn't the issue. Also for a hypothetical daredevil v. dramiel match, I doubt the neut is the problem, cuase I doubt the fight will last that long either way. Slicer won't win period. MPII DPS versus a Dramiel is 30-40 max once the infernal tracking formula has taken its pound of flesh, been there done that. You need DLP to even have a chance of taking it to armour, but winning is only going to happen if the Dramiel messes up. Best counter for Dramiel's is anything with high tracking like a Thrasher .. in ships with less you need dual-webs so bringing buddies is often the best alternative. PS: Yes I hate the filthy things with a vengeance, at least people get to pay through the nose for them Depends a lot (a LOT) on the dramiel fit imo since there are viable fits other than mwd/ab/scram/MSE - ones with a TD, ones with a cap booster, ones with a 24km instead of a 9km, etc, and against those the slicer might have a chance (if my experiences on sisi before Dominion went live are an indication). But yeah there's no way unbonused medium pulse are tracking something going 2km/s at 2.5km away (and similarly, no way 150mms are hitting anything at all at 20km), sorry if I implied that- the only point I wanted to make was that while the dramiel is very good its not like its a wtf dps monster. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.27 11:21:00 - [21] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth So wait, you need a 120m faction frigate, with rail fittings not standard blaster fit You can kill it with a standard blaster fitting, but it would require decent ping and awesome piloting skill - as you need to get within 3-4 kms when speeds are settled. Originally by: Ammy Azimuth and a faction scram and faction web? Thats ****ed right there if you need all that just to kill a dramiel. The 6.2 to 9km is with normal gear. If I want to operate at farther ranges to be safer and guarantee the win I need to fork out that much more just to kill the dramiel? Thats beyond **ed. You don't need faction stuff like scram/web just to kill dramiel, i mentioned 9km+ just because its safer to kill from that distance (damage on falloff is too random). 6-9 km is okay too thou. Originally by:** Ammy Azimuth It's not like a sentinel who's drones can get shot down. If dramiel shoots your drones - load tracking script, if it shoots you - load range script. Besides, some time ago me and friend of mine composed fitting to kill sabres (with 2 TDs) - it should handle dramiel too.
Wideen Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.01.27 11:29:00 - [22] A destroyer will not do (least not against the way I fit my dramiel) since I'll just orbit outside of his gunrange while slowly chewing through him with drones and guns. Another dramiel or a daredevil are your best bets tbh, setup for close range pwnage
Ko Shimin Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.01.27 12:26:00 - [23] The Dramiel is a good hit and run ship. You can easily pop t1 frigs, interceptors and some AFs. The Wolf or the Jaguar could prove a bit hard for the Dramiel to chew. [Wolf Fitting] Overdrive Injector System II 200mm Reinforced Titanium Plates I Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II 200mm AutoCannon II,Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II,Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II,Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II,Barrage S You do 119 dps with a 337 volley at a range of 2km optimal + 26 km falloff. Since you only go 2600 m/s you can't catch the Dramiel, but for sure he ain't got a chance if he decides to stay and fight. Other frigate sized ships that can kill a dramiel: Navy Slicer, Daredevil, Taranis, Succubus, Claw, Ishkur and why not, even the Rifter? My opinion is that the Dramiel does not need a nerf. It can prove a nuisance for some intys, can be very good tackle at gatecamps and during roams, but that's about it. It lacks resists and is quite fragile. If you take such a ship for a spin, you will eventually lose it. I lost one to a Taranis and another to a Manticore. Heh.. the fight against the manticore was kinda epic, i died to it after ripping apart 3 of his friends also in stealth bombers. The Taranis blasted me to oblivion as I got too close by mistake and scrammed/webbed me. The only overpowered, or should I say, state of the art frigate that is in use today, is the Rifter. It has good slot layout, good speed, good bonuses. All those at such a small price..
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.01.27 12:43:00 - [24] Jaguar post assault frigate AB boost, tbh. ohwai....
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.01.27 13:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Ko Shimin [Wolf Fitting]...but for sure he ain't got a chance if he decides to stay and fight. Originally by: Ko Shimin Other frigate sized ships that can kill a dramiel: Navy Slicer, Daredevil, Taranis, Succubus, Claw, Ishkur and why not, even the Rifter? You clearly have no idea what are you talking about. There are only few frig sized ships that can kill properly fitted dramiel in 1v1, and its dramiel pilot who chooses if he want to engage that ships or not... Btw that wolf is lol, do you realize its slower than standard dominion vaga /2x poly/?
Fearr Dorchaa	Posted - 2010.01.27 13:40:00 - [26] Might be relveant might not, engaged a dramiel at a gate there recently in 0 sec in my dual CDFE Jag, had scram and web on him and was working through his warior II's when he ****ing jammed me... ECM Dramiel? WTF? Maybe the reason he couldnt pull away from me was that he wasnt dual prop due to the ECM (or maybe he was crap) I deaggro'd and tanked him long enough to jump out but would have fancied my chances ECM aside
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.01.27 14:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Fearr Dorchaa Might be relveant might not, engaged a dramiel at a gate there recently in 0 sec in my dual CDFE Jag, had scram and web on him and was working through his warior II's when he ****ing jammed me... ECM Dramiel? WTF? Maybe the reason he couldnt pull away from me was that he wasnt dual prop due to the ECM (or maybe he was crap) I deaggro'd and tanked him long enough to jump out but would have fancied my chances ECM aside was he not packing light ecm drones?
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.01.27 14:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/01/2010 09:55:58 More like a 9km+ (if you can overheat scram/have faction one). Daredevil controls the distance, so when speeds are dropped and if you're >3-5 km away from it - most likely that you won. As for your fitting - i prefer DPS over tank, so for me t2 aerator is better choice (also it helps to break active tanks). Besides, it doesn't cost much if you manufacture it yourself. So wait, you need a 120m faction frigate, with rail fittings not standard blaster fit, and a faction scram and faction web? Thats ****ed right there if you need all that just to kill a dramiel. The 6.2 to 9km is with normal gear. If I want to operate at farther ranges to be safer and guarantee the win I need to fork out that much more just to kill the dramiel? Thats beyond ****ed. Your dramiel fit has dead-space prop mods and yet you don't allow faction items?
CrazySpaceHobo Caldari Mysterys Inc.	Posted - 2010.01.27 14:47:00 - [29] [Caracal Navy Issue, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x3 This will Kill it, For sure. I've taken orbiting intys into low-armor in one volley with this, it's comedy to see them try and flee once they realise they're done for.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.01.27 14:51:00 - [30] Originally by: CrazySpaceHobo Classic AML Caracal This will Kill it, For sure. I've taken orbiting intys into low-armor in one volley with this, it's comedy to see them try and flee once they realise they're done for. Dual-prop dramiel will just escape if it's going to lose - because this caracal doesn't have enough real dps to kill it fast. That's not the case for thrasher/sabre - they can't control distance but will pop dual-prop dramiel pretty fast, most likely before dramiel notices that it's too late.



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