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Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.07 00:20:00 - [391] Originally by: Zhilia Mann .....Comparing the Dramiel based on its cost is stupid. Comparing it on volume is stupid. So let's try to compare it on performance and abilities instead, no? Patience my dear. Rational discussion is scheduled for page 15, we are almost there!!! /me goes back to enjoy the buzz of the nano-age discussions.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.07 01:18:00 - [392] Edited by: Darthewok on 07/02/2010 01:22:05 it goes back to the concept of what you want to determine victory or defeat of a frig vs frig battle. 1) you used a better fit 2) you flew better 3) you paid more for an iwin button ship i prefer 1) and 2). number 3) is boring. dramiel being an iwin button no matter the price changes the EVE dynamic to pay for victory. also i am not for pirate frigs being too strong. t2 partially obsolete t1 frigs already. pirate frigs in common use would utterly obsolete t1 frigs. pirate frigs not only push chance of victory in t1 from small to incredibly small. they also reduce the utility of t1 frigs in fleets to very useless. t1 tacklers already get bullied by t2. they would completely and utterly made useless by common use of pirate frigs. people often point to how in EVE, the new player can be useful from day 1 in a t1 tackler. well, if everyone is flying pirate frigs as standard, forget about this cool feature of the game anymore. supporting high strength of pirate frigs just because you pay more for them is supporting the idea of ISK being main determinant not just a partial determinant of PVP outcome. supporting pirate frigs as the new standard frig is hugely raising the ISK bar for entering PVP for new PVPers.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.07 05:16:00 - [393] Originally by: Ammy Azimuth Quote: Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. The thing is Dramiel is neither focused and niche nor is it on par or slightly above them. Theres a fat chasm between them. Dramiels don't obsolete interceptors. Interceptors, as the name suggest, are meant to tackle ** and survive. The Dramiel doesn't get the sig radius reduction, higher scan resolution, tackle cap consumption bonus nor the tackle range bonus. There's also the bonus that a handful of interceptor hulls are easily replaceable with their reasonably low price when ** does hit the fan. Sure, the Dramiel may be faster, but the interceptor's role is generally restricted to catching ships larger than itself that will be slower anyway. It's ability to kill other frigates is just a bonus. Also, good luck getting more DPS and tank out of a Dramiel than out of an Assault frigate.
crastar	Posted - 2010.02.07 05:58:00 - [394] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Ophelia Ursus A well-flown rifter can quite happily kill any combat intie even though it costs around 50x less. Is it the Rifter that's OP or the inties that are in need of a boost? It excels in all areas important in frig combat and with no clear weakness to exploit I struggle to take one out 1vs1 with any Amarr ship it will engage. Why should you be able to 1v1 a Dramiel, you listed all the area's it excels in, it's a faction frig i.e. it's a better ship than any other frig. If you want that faction km start thinking like a killer, and get a fleet together. You'd do it for a navy mega, you'd do it for any other faction ship. All I see here (in this thread) are small thinkers who want to kill an expensive ship, and don't know how. It's fast? Web it. Cant do it alone? Get a friend. /thread.
Kingwood Amarr Black Fax Attack	Posted - 2010.02.07 07:09:00 - [395] Helios with 3 ECM mods.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.07 07:38:00 - [396] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/02/2010 07:38:32 Originally by: Ammy Azimuth The thing is Dramiel is neither focused and niche nor is it on par or slightly above them. Theres a fat chasm between them. Yeah, it really is focused and niche. It very much follows the "combat inty" line of thinking, and is as focused as any of them. Eve is a game of extremes, and as such something "10% better" than something else totally obsoletes the other thing. You seem to be trying to convince me that the ship is overpowered... which I already agree to. I just remain unconvinced that anyone should be claiming that because they're having trouble solo'ing one in a t2 frigate that its unbalanced. I don't care if they nerf the Dramiel - what I care is that all of the pirate faction frigates are better than T2 frigates. You want to complain that you can't solo it in your T2 frigate - cry me a ***ing river IDC. You want to complain that it's too survivable because of Agility+Speed+MSE+Dual Prop... sure I can take that and even agree - but I don't think it's too terribly far into the land of overpoweredness. -Liang Ed: BTW, I actually went and hunted that dev blog down. I read it before making my post. I just don't think the Dramiel is 50% better than the next best ship. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum **** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.07 08:01:00 - [397] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/02/2010 07:38:32 Originally by: Ammy Azimuth The thing is Dramiel is neither focused and niche nor is it on par or slightly above them. Theres a fat chasm between them. Yeah, it really is focused and niche. It very much follows the "combat inty" line of thinking, and is as focused as any of them. Eve is a game of extremes, and as such something "10% better" than something else totally obsoletes the other thing. You seem to be trying to convince me that the ship is overpowered... which I already agree to. I just remain unconvinced that anyone should be claiming that because they're having trouble solo'ing one in a t2 frigate that its unbalanced. I don't care if they nerf the Dramiel - what I care is that all of the pirate faction frigates are better than T2 frigates. You want to complain that you can't solo it in your T2 frigate - cry me a ***ing river IDC. You want to complain that it's too survivable because of Agility+Speed+MSE+Dual Prop... sure I can take that and even agree - but I don't think it's too terribly far into the land of overpoweredness. -Liang Ed: BTW, I actually went and hunted that dev blog down. I read it before making my post*. I just don't think the Dramiel is 50% better than the next best ship. stealth boost the worm post!
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.07 08:11:00 - [398] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton stealth boost the worm post! As a matter of fact... -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.07 10:04:00 - [399] Originally by: crastar It excels in all areas important in frig combat and with no clear weakness to exploit I struggle to take one out 1vs1 with any Amarr ship it will engage. Why should you be able to 1v1 a Dramiel, you listed all the area's it excels in, it's a faction frig i.e. it's a better ship than any other frig. Those areas of excellence are too many. My Crusader is a wonderful ship, but is has a number of specific weaknesses. A good pilot can exploit those in many different ships and beat me. Against a Dramiel there is no clear weakness to exploit. Even if I specifically counter-fit against a Dramiel, I still can't beat it. There is no stone to the Dramiel's scissors. The best counter to a Dramiel is another Dramiel. This has been repeated in this thread, and I mention this in the nano-age as well: the Dramiel is viral. I used to do a lot of solo Crusader roams in FW in the past, I don't do a lot now anymore: there is always a Dramiel around the corner. It is the most common frig in FW, which, for a supposedly rare pirate frigate, is saying a lot. If the Dramiel gets common and has a good counter, you would see the counter multiply. But since the best counter is another Dramiel: lotsa Dramiels in FW. Originally by: crastar If you want that faction km start thinking like a killer, and get a fleet together. You'd do it for a navy mega, you'd do it for any other faction ship. You don't seem to have any experience in small ship combat. If a fast frig size ship doesn't want to be caught, it can't. Fleets serve no purpose to take down a small fast ship. Why do you think so many people roam solo in frig-size ships and not in Navy Mega's? They do so to avoid the blob. A Dramiel is an excellent blob-avoidance tool besides its other advantages. The Navy Mega does not. In fact, I can beat a Navy Mega in any Amarr Battleship if I speficially counterfit for it. It's not viral, the best counter against a Navy Mega is not another Navy Mega. Originally by: crastar All I see here (in this thread) are small thinkers who want to kill an expensive ship, and don't know how. It's fast? Web it. Cant do it alone? Get a friend. /thread. I would prefer it if you leave the insults and personal attacks behind and focus on argument instead. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.07 10:05:00 - [400] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 07/02/2010 10:12:42 Originally by: Liang Nuren Yeah, it really is focused and niche. It very much follows the "combat inty" line of thinking, and is as focused as any of them. Eve is a game of extremes, and as such something "10% better" than something else totally obsoletes the other thing. Dramiel is 10% better when you look at its separate attributes, but as in mentioned it's "10% better" than the best combat interceptor which excels at 1-2 attributes. 120% speed of dual-OD crusader with almost no speed mods, 120% ehp of plated claw, 240% ranis' ability ability to escape/control range/angular velocity using dual-prop (i'd even call it unique), 80% crusader's ability to inflict damage at edge of scram range, 120% ranis' ability to inflict damage on hi-speed low orbit. Originally by: Liang Nuren what I care is that all of the pirate faction frigates are better than T2 frigates. Than all t2 frigs or just better than t2 frig in chosen niche (like worm can be better than ishkur if CCP will give it more DPS/tank)? Originally by: Liang Nuren BTW, I actually went and hunted that dev blog down. I read it before making my post. I just don't think the Dramiel is 50% better than the next best ship. Mkay, which ship you used to compare? Thrasher? Sabre? :D Originally by: Kirzath Dramiels don't obsolete interceptors. Interceptors, as the name suggest, are meant to tackle ** and survive. The Dramiel doesn't get the sig radius reduction, higher scan resolution, tackle cap consumption bonus nor the tackle range bonus. There's also the bonus that a handful of interceptor hulls are easily replaceable with their reasonably low price when ** does hit the fan. Sure, the Dramiel may be faster, but the interceptor's role is generally restricted to catching ships larger than itself that will be slower anyway. It's ability to kill other frigates is just a bonus. I do agree here, but only partially. Sig radius bonus is really cool, and 30km t2 disruptor on tackling inties gives them unique niche too. But dramiels in camps can be easily used to catch stuff, even if it's very fast. There you don't need to tackle your target for a long time, you need to catch it into scram and have enough hp buffer to let your gangmates catch up. In other words, even for gatecamps dramiel is perfect.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.07 10:14:00 - [401] Originally by: Liang Nuren You seem to be trying to convince me that the ship is overpowered... which I already agree to. I just remain unconvinced that anyone should be claiming that because they're having trouble solo'ing one in a t2 frigate that its unbalanced. I don't care if they nerf the Dramiel - what I care is that all of the pirate faction frigates are better than T2 frigates. The complaint is that it can't be soloed even if you specifically counterfit your regular frig to beat it (and end up with a reasonable setup). All other ships can be soloed by many other frig-size ships if they counterfit. The Dramiel itself makes the best counter to a Dramiel. That makes a Dramiel viral, and that is the main problem. The more Dramiels there are, the bigger the incentive for other people to fly Dramiel too. I always consider it a challenge to find a way to beat hostiles with the specific selection of ships I have (Amarr only). I can beat nearly any frig-size ship solo in my Crusader. Some are hard, like the Sentinel, Jaguar or the Kitsune, but I can and have beaten them in a Crusader through application of specific tactics that exploit one of these ship's weaknesses. I haven't found any Dramiel weakness to exploit yet. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.07 10:25:00 - [402] Originally by: Merdaneth The complaint is that it can't be soloed even if you specifically counterfit your regular frig to beat it (and end up with a reasonable setup). All other ships can be soloed by many other frig-size ships if they counterfit. The Dramiel itself makes the best counter to a Dramiel. That makes a Dramiel viral, and that is the main problem. The more Dramiels there are, the bigger the incentive for other people to fly Dramiel too. Really, use a daredevil, it's the perfect counter and also overall better 1v1, just not as flexible in 1v many and GTFO. Also, I'm pretty confident that a Comet would stand a very good chance, though the dram might decide to disengage... (Dram would have to be kiting at around 7-9k on the very edge of it's scramrange to outdps the comet, so if the comet got a few good volleys in sub 5k it might go well) ____________________________________________________________
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.02.07 10:57:00 - [403] For god's sake people. One ship must be the fastest one in game. There is no way to avoid that. And due to how game works is impossible to solo the fastest ship unless you have a web bonuses ship or the enemy pilot is an idiot. Get real! This is a non end nerf loop.Its not as you can have many roles beyond being fast on a frigate. Therefore the fastest frigate will always be nber. Any non stupid nerf to dramiel would be reducing a bit its firepower. a BIT!! But overal I like that dramiel now can tackle and keep under BS and BC guns slowly melting them to death. Maybe that helps people to think on using active tanks again? ( a single lar can easily tank a dramiel forever) But better than nerf it would be to find a way to boost the other pirate frigates a bit, to boost AF ( give half the previous AB boost and you already have something very interesting), and reduce the LP cost of the navy frigates (otherwise they are forced to cost as much as pirate ones.. so no demand and usage). I repeat the fact that some firgates can avoid BS guns with dual props and slowly chew them is GOOD, because is the first thing against buffer tanks this game brings for a loooong time
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.07 11:11:00 - [404] Originally by: Seishi Maru I repeat the fact that some firgates can avoid BS guns with dual props and slowly chew them is GOOD, because is the first thing against buffer tanks this game brings for a loooong time Get more experiences flying frigates, this has been possible for years. A fast single-prop AB frigate can go under battleship-size guns, cruiser-size guns and even many frig-size guns. You don't need a Dramiel to do so. In fact, I usually tracking tank dual-prop blaster Ranises in my AB Sader at close range. Funny stuff, especially because the Ranis pilots usually don't realize what is happening. Additionally, that argument has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Quote: Get real! This is a non end nerf loop.Its not as you can have many roles beyond being fast on a frigate. Therefore the fastest frigate will always be nber. You get real. Frigates used to be all nano. Now many frigates actually have something besides speed tank. Some are EW fitted, some have buffers, some have active tanks. Some frigates excel at getting the tackle, some excel at maintaining the tackle, some excel at engaging at edge of disruptor range, some excel at going close in. There are many rock-paper-scissor mechanisms at work that make many choice viable. There is just one frig to rule them all. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Aka5ha Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.07 11:19:00 - [405] I got into a 1v1 with it in my retribution, and while I had a vamp fitted I last awhile. Fight went on for maybe 3 minutes, but after awhile my small armor rep couldnt keep up. I had to flee. Anyways I couldnt even break its armor tank even though I was overheating. I thought he would run outah cap soon, but I was wrong. I suggest you use a cruor since they changed it in the last patch. It gets a DPS bonus now as well as Web/Neut amount. way better then before imo...
Kazang Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2010.02.07 12:14:00 - [406] Dramiel has a ton of counters, people have got soft since QR with the **** easy nano counter of a frigate with a scrambler. If nothing else all the pirate ships with 90% webs massacre them, but any competent pilot can fit a dramiel counter. Pretty sure a omen with dual webs and 150mm autocannons will beat a dramiel, and any dramiel pilot is going to lunge headfirst at a lone omen as they are normally easily solo'd by a frig. HTFU tbh Kazang
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.07 12:21:00 - [407] Originally by: Kazang ... Yes, so we should all start fly ships that are gimped in every other way other than frig killing BECAUSE OF DRAMIEL... And no, your lol dualweb 150mm ac omen wont kill dramiel, because even dualwebbed hes still faster than you /and your loltastic ship doesnt have mwd/.
Kazang Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2010.02.07 13:18:00 - [408] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Kazang ... Yes, so we should all start fly ships that are gimped in every other way other than frig killing BECAUSE OF DRAMIEL... And no, your lol dualweb 150mm ac omen wont kill dramiel, because even dualwebbed hes still faster than you /and your loltastic ship doesnt have mwd/. You see a dramiel and don't have another pirate frig to beat it with, then get in a bait cruiser pretty simple tactic. If you don't get that I can see why you have a problem. There are also these marvellous inventions called neutralizes, combined with webs and dps this is death for any frigate, despite how uber you may think it is. The problem I have is getting a dramiel to engage anything that's not a T1 frig, but I'm not going to cry nerf just becasue they can run away. It's like AFK cloaking, the dramiel can't hurt anyone but those stupid enough to get caught or engage them with a poor choice of ship. There are plenty of normal fits and ships that will kill a dramiel without issue, vexor, arbitrator, thrasher, curse, ishkur, drake, sacrilege etc. If your having trouble with dramiels just fly something that can at minimum force them to disengage. Just don't expect any decent pilots to engage you and fly to their deaths senselessly. Dramiels seem overpowered because they have the ability to only fight what they can beat but in reality are pretty easy to kill once engaged. Kazang
Van Steiza Battlestars	Posted - 2010.02.07 13:18:00 - [409] You guys are ****ed if you come up against a dual prop mse scramb dramiel. Its so easy to kill you can flipping kill it in a thrasher if you wanted too. Its all about the pilots skill im a good pilot killed alot of things in a dramiel but ive nearly been killed in one many times too i just always found a way to get out via it be my friends helping me or them **ing up some how. It is a good frig but it is no way unkillable and you dont need a specific counter to kill one. Learn to pvp people instead of crying overpowered. Same goes for the cynabal there so easy to kill people only fly them so much because of all these videos and what not but there so easy to kill god dammit stop complaining and learn to pvp. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.07 13:45:00 - [410] Originally by: Kazang another bull**** You have no idea what are you talking. Yes, lets start fitting dual /triple/ webs to bcs and med neuts to cruisers just BECAUSE OF DRAMIEL. It doesnt matter that everything else will kill you with that fit, you will get your dramiel killmail and you will prove everyone on eveo that dramiel isnt op and doesnt need nerf.
Van Steiza Battlestars	Posted - 2010.02.07 13:57:00 - [411] Way to go ignoring the good posts telling you guys how to kill them without needing to counter them directly or fly specific ships. You ignore those and find the ones that seem to point out its unkillable.. Just look at what i posted above. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.07 14:05:00 - [412] Only thing i got from your posts is, that you are dramiel /and cynabal/ pilot and you dont want it touched... Vs trasher - standard dram can easily kill arty trasher, can kill mse trasher without neut /if it has neut fitted youd need nos/, can kill 400 rt trasher if pilot makes mistake /talking about all l5s/ and can easily disengage from any trasher.
Van Steiza Battlestars	Posted - 2010.02.07 14:19:00 - [413] Your pulling out your ass now. I fly them once in a while rarely because there fun. There hardly my main ships but i know how easy it is to loose them and specialy to a thrasher its so easy. Sure you can afterburner out of range if your getting low but you may just die before your able to run away. A good pilot can always kill you mate and ive had my fair share of welps. Stop assuming that just because I dont think it needs nerfing that im a FOTM guy in one. Its so simple to kill yet you lack the effort to do so. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Caleb Fury Amarr Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2010.02.07 14:21:00 - [414] I'm a cheap-ass and I don't like to fly anything other than T1 ships, I am however, gonna have to get a Dramiel now. I missed out on training for a Falcon before the "nerf". Good thing I didn't tho. But really, I know nothing about the ship other than there are an astonishing amount of Dramiels floating around in FW for a ship that is supposedly rare. A good indicator for a NERF would seem to be a thread concerning a ship that gets over ten pages. The idea of countering a Dramiel with another Dramiel sounds a lot like the whole, "You don't like the Falcon? Well bring your own Falcon!" crowd that used to parade around before the changes to ECM went through. The Dram will get 'rebalanced', There is no doubt in my mind. Unless ofc they do something about the other pirate frigs.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.07 14:26:00 - [415] Originally by: Van Steiza Way to go ignoring the good posts telling you guys how to kill them without needing to counter them directly or fly specific ships. You ignore those and find the ones that seem to point out its unkillable.. Just look at what i posted above. If you had bothered reading the thread you would not suggest the Thrasher as a counter. I kill Thrasher's, both AC and Arty, using Slicers and Punisher's .. not that hard when you know what to expect (FW is marvellous for low-key solo fights). Dramiel's are not unkillable, no one has said so. Defenders of the iWin hull keep saying that is what we complain about, yet no one as far as I have seen have actually said that without serious caveats. Recap for your lazy arse's benefit; Dramiel's combination of tank, speed, damage, drones and agility makes it impossible to kill unless the pilot makes a mistake or you fit specifically to counter it. In case of the former, the Dramiel is probably the single most forgiving ship around .. you almost have to go AFK lose it, dipping into scramble/web range has no lasting effect and can easily be compensated for. In the latter case, the counter fits are so specialised that they will have very limited use against anything but AB frigates like a Dramiel. Dramiel in its current form quite simply lacks counters due to it being heads and shoulders above everything else, even the other pirate hulls. It has no focus like the others (damage, drones/tank, cap war) but excels at everything .. that is what is wrong with the Dramiel.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.07 14:30:00 - [416] Originally by: Van Steiza Your pulling out your ass now. I fly them once in a while rarely because there fun. There hardly my main ships but i know how easy it is to loose them and specialy to a thrasher its so easy. Sure you can afterburner out of range if your getting low but you may just die before your able to run away. A good pilot can always kill you mate and ive had my fair share of welps. Stop assuming that just because I dont think it needs nerfing that im a FOTM guy in one. Its so simple to kill yet you lack the effort to do so. If you were good pilot youd engage trasher at the edge of overheated scram range and theres no problem disengaging from that position. You are safe from small neut at 10k and you are doing more dps than thrasher at this range. And youd also know that abing dram can get even under tracking bonused acs /mse trasher without web/. And btw, maybe you didnt realize - its dram pilot who chooses engagement.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.02.07 15:40:00 - [417] it's funny how people complain that it's "nano nerf all over" again when the nanonerf was a good thing in retroperspective. If you remind yourself of 10km/s curses and sacs it's rather a question why it was even debated that heavily. the fact that ****ing everyone is flying dramiels now (this means people cash angel lp in for dramiels over cynabals, halo sets and machs (lawl)) shows how op they are.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.07 16:52:00 - [418] Lugalzagezi666 u keep say dramiel kill thrasher and ven saber well i say get ur dramie and come kill me i think ur full of ** so put up or shut up i put my money where my mouth is do u no u run and hide when i call ur bull** the dramil has coutnrs even if u dont amdit it
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.07 16:53:00 - [419] Lol Merdaneth at first i thought you were just confirming the drams known strength and not realy whining. The rest of them on here whining doesnt surprise me at all tbh! I'm surprised to see one of the best sader pilots in game here whining about how he cannot undock his sader. Merdaneth you fly the best close range sader fit ingame imo and can take out many other ceptors and t1 frigs. So why are you engaging drams? Im sure u know your ships limitations, unless you believe engaging ships like a claw or dram would produce your desired outcome. I would also consider not gimping yourself by being in PIE inc. with the whole not being able to destroy any random ship you encounter, which limits the amout of targets available to you. The genos use to fly alot of taranis do you want to nerf thoughs? I personaly dont care what they fly or who is piloting, only about how its possibly fit and how effective my ship is against whatever. 90 precent of the frigs in null are either ceptors or cloaky ships. Pilots in null like to run and cloak! If a ship is not able to do thoughs things they cry about how theyre gimp. Af's Strength are in tank, firepower and not in overall speed. These pilots want af's to be like ceptors! Which is essentially what ccp tried to do, then reverse that decision not to make af's so overpowered they would bring back a new nano age. The dram is what all thoughs who feared the af buff would do. My concern was they would produce ships that could sig tank most incoming damage with the focus on buffing bonuses towards (Afterburners). In low sec the picture is more diverse than null and many ship types are cultivated. In low sec Af 's are seen even more than ceptors and are for the most part (omg AB fit)! This is where destroyer's where used to maximuim affect, rifters got theyre reputation and so on. The Changes to scram gimped many ceptors and boosted mainly the claw. It gimped the ranis to the point that rifters, merlins and punisher are able to defeat them with no trouble. To which duel prop ranis's tried to but failed to fix that issue atleast against ab/t1 frigs. Some quickly changed with the new way of things and started to ab fit certain frigs which now found that theyre more viable against cruisers and battlecruisers. At the time i thought af's are now overpowered, but was quickly balanced with the new way of fitting cruisers and above. It was nothing that a combo of neuts and drones couldnt fix! Even small blaster thorax's made that ship more viable to the new dangers.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.07 17:01:00 - [420] Recently one of my corpmates asked me about soloing blobs and killing ceptors! He found that he couldnt kill ceptors and how is anyone able to take out ships with their fleet on grid watching. Ceptors (he went on to say) didnt want to engage his jag and he couldnt get to them even if he wanted too. I then asked him if he wanted to gimp himself against 75% of the other frigs/destroyers in eve that are not ceptors. If you drop your ab for a mwd you will gimp yourself in combat just to be able to kill ceptors. Then why use a mwd at all? Well If you wannna solo blobs i.e. split them up on grid otherwise i dont see a reason to use mwd's on a frigs that are not ceptors in low sec. In null where most frigs are ceptors you might as well fit mwd's because the chances of you finding another af/frig/Ab is slim to none. Under scram range's ab's are superior in frig combat and the only reason this has'nt found its way to null is because of the fear of bubble/Hics. Under scram ranges the ab dram is unstoppable but the duel prop dram without duel overdrives and snakes can be held down and killed by any af with web/scram and overloaded ab. The tank on the dram is very much overstated and must mean that the dudes your fighting are to busy running away to fire back = ) or are crows. The Worm with a ab/scram/web can indeed beat a duel prop dram but not hold a ab focused dram. The worms strength is in its tank which is substantial and its balanced dps which is about 135 with a neut. The worm is more a counter to the daredevil and curor than it is to the dram in anycase. The worm can beat any ship destroyer and below be it t2 or faction. The curor is not gimp and is able to deal better with multi-ple targets than the dram could. Within its 18.9k Sphere of influence its the fastest ship and in beast mode can take alot of damage something that the dram cannot do! The diffrence between the cruor and dram is like mohamed ali and george foreman. If you get into the cruor or daredevils web range its over! The worm doesnt have that fear because its just a beast and doesnt realy need to move. The worm's only weakness is its drones! Compared that to the ishkur's active repair, shortrange/slaster's which also use's cap, speed and its drones... Ive engaged many drams and have only lost once to a armor tanked version while the rest just got away because of speedz!!!!!!!!!!! I have even engaged drams in my gank fitted firetail forcing them off grid once they feel the damage and that its not a push ovA!!! Also as far as i know the claw is the only ceptor that is not a push over for the dram because i have went after them in it tooo = ) I guess when i start dieing to them alot i'll start whining about it. Untill then i gots no issue with them... "Adapt or die"

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