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Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 13:18:00 - [271] Hahaha. I love seeing Darthewok on our killboard with a terrible Jaguar fit and he's in here complaining about Dramiels. You should probably learn to fly your own ships before you complain about others. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 13:34:00 - [272] nice deflection because you want to save your beloved dramiel. your vested interest is obvious. btw, ships i killed in solo fights just this week in jaguar. navy slicer. ares. crusader. i was messing about with new fits and it didn't succeed. so what. better open-minded than being such a snob.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 13:54:00 - [273] Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 04/02/2010 13:46:53 riiight. i don't know frig combat. this week alone i beat Ares Navy Slicer Crusader in a jaguar. solo. no scouts. no corp to back me up. you use the fact that i was beaten by a dramiel to back up the argument that it should not be nerfed? thank you for showing it should. sure that fit sucked i admit. i was experimenting with new fits (how fast can i make a jaguar) and it didn't succeed. so what. nothing to do with the subject at hand. better open-minded than being such a snob. Dude, I especially picked a dram as I saw it was you, for epicness ;) (And the alternative would have been a Ruppie or Cynabal so W/E) And 3 frigate hull kills "solo.no scouts.no corp to back me up" does not make you to "know frig combat", from what it looks like you're about getting started on the curriculum so to say... ____________________________________________________________
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:01:00 - [274] 3 out of 4 is not bad huh? with 4th being dramiel. i have seen dramiel perform a lot in group combat. i flew in frigs a lot in RvB and also, a lot of my losses vs blobs was due to being tackled by dramiels. the jaguar you killed i was trying to fit to reach 3500m/s just for laughs! a freaky fit i know. so like intigo to make such a mountain over a molehill. you surprised me or i would not have fought a dramiel. btw i am sympathetic to your corp and other pvp corps enjoying dramiel as it allows nano alternative to big ship blobs. HOWEVER, i think dramiel's uberness is at the cost of virtually all other frigs. thats why i support a nerf.
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:41:00 - [275] Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 04/02/2010 14:26:24 winning 3 out of 4 solo jaguar fights this week is not bad huh? with 4th being dramiel. or perhaps i should include killing kestrel and a cerb alone with a jaguar. or an arazu with a rifter. or many many t1 frigate fights. so suuure i don't know about manual flying, spiralling, tracking, webs, scrams, overheating etc. etc. etc. read back. i never based my arguments on these 4 fights. i have encountered dramiel a lot in group combat in RvB, and also regularly encounter drams wandering solo in low-sec and 0.0. 9+ regions in fact. btw gf. that was fun and somewhat amusing to me too. the jaguar you killed i was trying to fit to reach 3500m/s just for laughs! a freaky fit i know. so like intigo to make such a mountain over a molehill. you surprised me or i would not have fought a dramiel. also i am sympathetic to your corp and other pvp corps enjoying dramiel as it allows nano alternative to big ship blobs. i can imagine how fun the ship must be to go against proviblob etc. HOWEVER, i think dramiel's uberness is at the cost of virtually all other frigs. in the balance the bads outweigh the goods for dramiel. thats why i support a nerf. i am tempted to fly a dramiel, but don't want to agree with the new de facto standard frig of choice being an expensive pirate frig. thats leading towards a "pay for pvp victory" style of MMO i don't agree with. You killed a few badly fit frigs, that doesn't make you some kind of frigate mastermind, or change the fact that you are failfitting your jaguar. You would die to a competant rifter in that fit. When you do, are you going to create a rifter nerf thread?
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:44:00 - [276] so guys, what frig are you flying? could some of this resistance be vested interests?
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:55:00 - [277] Originally by: Darthewok so guys, what frig are you flying? could some of this resistance be vested interests? Don't take intigo or hydra to hart, they troll and blob just as everyone else. Form your statistics you look like a decent enough pilot.
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 15:38:00 - [278] Edited by: Intigo on 04/02/2010 15:41:11 Your fit is a joke, Darthewok. Much like your posting. And no, I don't really care about the Dramiel. I care about correcting all the things you are saying that are just plain wrong. Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Darthewok so guys, what frig are you flying? could some of this resistance be vested interests? Don't take intigo or hydra to hart, they troll and blob just as everyone else. Form your statistics you look like a decent enough pilot. Blob? That must be a troll if I ever saw one. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 15:43:00 - [279] Originally by: Intigo And no, I don't really care about the Dramiel. and i care about how a bitter old vet like yourself is so snobbish he thinks he has some right to try to suppress younger enterprising players like myself through petty personal attacks. zzzzzz
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 15:48:00 - [280] Originally by: Darthewok Originally by: Intigo And no, I don't really care about the Dramiel. and i care about how a bitter old vet like yourself is so snobbish he thinks he has some right to try to suppress younger enterprising players like myself through petty personal attacks. zzzzzz Dude, don't mind Intigo but Kimura is a young enterprising player if I ever saw one. Kimura is 6 months younger than Darthewok so he can flame you right? (Like pointed out he also EFTed the "standard" dual prop dram fit first AFAIK ;) ) Oh, I'll join the don't care if dram is nerfed crowd but it would be a damn shame tbh. The game needs more speedy guerilla ships, not less. IMHO and all... ____________________________________________________________

Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 15:56:00 - [281] Originally by: Raimo Dude, don't mind Intigo but Kimura is a young enterprising player if I ever saw one. Kimura is 6 months younger than Darthewok so he can flame you right? (Like pointed out he also EFTed the "standard" dual prop dram fit first AFAIK ;) ) Kimura rocks. check out his vid. like i said nothing personal. only mr intigo as usual has to be petty so i responded. Originally by: Raimo Oh, I'll join the don't care if dram is nerfed crowd but it would be a damn shame tbh. The game needs more speedy guerilla ships, not less. IMHO and all... i really sympathize on wanting stuff that can do guerilla stuff vs blobs. i want that too actually but unfortunately have to oppose dramiel as it wrecks frig v frig balance.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.04 16:16:00 - [282] Edited by: Raimo on 04/02/2010 16:16:02 Originally by: Darthewok i really sympathize on wanting stuff that can do guerilla stuff vs blobs. i want that too actually but unfortunately have to oppose dramiel as it wrecks frig v frig balance. Well, here's something we can actually have a discussion about. What if a few key boats currently lacking were buffed instead to fix that frig v frig balance? Rocket boost et al, you know... Like I said, it really is the age old nanowhine/ because of falcon thing again... I'm just concerned in the direction this particular nerf would take the game (again), not that concerned about the dramiel per se. It's just the way they work the game and keep us all training for new stuff really, there always has to be new "best" and FOTM ships for the gameplay to stay fresh... ____________________________________________________________
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.04 16:44:00 - [283] Originally by: Darthewok in a game, there has to be highly diminishing returns to spending more or else it just becomes a "buy your way to victory". that's why +5 implants are so much more expensive than +3s and so forth. Hey cool fact - +5s are five times as good as +1s. Implants weren't the right thing to pick for demonstrating "diminishing returns" because the only thing that diminishes is cost/performance not performance itself. People will pay lots extra for extra performance. IMO the Dramiel will be nerfed, but I think the real culprit for everyone complaining isn't the Dramiel itself but the well acknowledged suckiness of assault frigs. Boosting AFs would make the Dramiel not as "overpowered", though it or the other faction frigs might still need some adjustment. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:04:00 - [284] yeah true there, i made a fail example. eek. maybe a better example would be 5% damage implant vs 3% damage implant more like. many many more times the cost for just 2% more DPS. or T2 vs T1 rigs. basically richer players can pay for an slight significant edge but not so huge an edge everyone needs to have them just to keep up. regarding how to balance frigs - slight nerf of the dram, slight boost of AFs is my preference. with the emphasis on slight. a little too much adjustment and balance goes out of whack so easily... CCP IMO has done a relatively cool job balancing given how many things they change together at a time.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:26:00 - [285] Originally by: Darthewok yeah true there, i made a fail example. eek. maybe a better example would be 5% damage implant vs 3% damage implant more like. many many more times the cost for just 2% more DPS. or T2 vs T1 rigs. basically richer players can pay for an slight significant edge but not so huge an edge everyone needs to have them just to keep up. FYI, this is exactly the same fail analogy. T1 Frigs = 1% damage implants, Faction frigs = 5% damage implants. T1 frig = 200K ISK, Dramiel = 100M ISK. Quote: regarding how to balance frigs - slight nerf of the dram, slight boost of AFs is my preference. with the emphasis on slight. a little too much adjustment and balance goes out of whack so easily... CCP IMO has done a relatively cool job balancing given how many things they change together at a time. I don't think AFs need a slight boost - most of them are pretty crap by pretty much any standard. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.04 19:18:00 - [286] Dramiel doesn't cost 100kk, more like 70kk. Btw, it'd be really interesting to get statistics about popularity of pirate/faction frigs - how much players tried to use certain frigs, how much kills were made, how much lost, etc.
snake133	Posted - 2010.02.04 19:45:00 - [287] Edited by: snake133 on 04/02/2010 19:46:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Darthewok yeah true there, i made a fail example. eek. maybe a better example would be 5% damage implant vs 3% damage implant more like. many many more times the cost for just 2% more DPS. or T2 vs T1 rigs. basically richer players can pay for an slight significant edge but not so huge an edge everyone needs to have them just to keep up. FYI, this is exactly the same fail analogy. T1 Frigs = 1% damage implants, Faction frigs = 5% damage implants. T1 frig = 200K ISK, Dramiel = 100M ISK. Quote: regarding how to balance frigs - slight nerf of the dram, slight boost of AFs is my preference. with the emphasis on slight. a little too much adjustment and balance goes out of whack so easily... CCP IMO has done a relatively cool job balancing given how many things they change together at a time. I don't think AFs need a slight boost - most of them are pretty crap by pretty much any standard. -Liang ok i gotta say it i jst gotta boost rockets and hybrids. and at 100mill (Hull) for a frigate it better darn well guarantee a kill mail. compared to ishkur and other AF at 28 to 30 mill tops jst for the hull. id say its working as intended for that price tag. granted when price placed aside, the dram is OP relative to the competition within its class of frigs. but there are counters aka huggin rappier, ishtar, kitsune(ive seen it b4 was very sad) there are counters but most of them require 2 ships, so essentially i view this like if u want to solo in a frig and win constantly u gotta pay $$ for it (dram) if you want to win cheaper and constantly you have to do it in pairs or more. aka solo pay big group go cheap. but thats jst my 0.02isk and that jst is a rough explanation, there are thousands of solo kills with cheap t1 frigs but the dram is considered the guarantee. then again cost vs effectiveness of ship, dram 100 mill 2x AF 50 mill, 1x Recon 80 to 100 mill +, 2 or 3 frigs 5 mill (fitted lol) so the dram is an AF crossed with an ceptor its 2 in 1, only sounds reasonable to counter it with another dram or 2 other ships. dont use that logic towards other ships im jst using it here to explain why i think its not op, but if you do then look below. look at the gila its got the ishtar all beat to heck yet its not op. the rattlesnake is an amazing ship and if we all flew them they would be op because they are op compared to the avg BS or even marauder t2, pirate + boatloads of isk = op/win. example: (mach = win for bs warfare but mach = $$$.) if the dram is so op vs 1v1 then i guess the scorpion and widow are also op to 1v1, the curse must be op then aswell as it seems to be extremely good at 1v1, the rook must be op aswell because of its 0 chance of counters by 1 ship alone. the only exception is eccm using 3 but cripples your ships abilities in anything. i jst say hey dont shoot at it if you dont think you can take it, target acquisition/selection is very key. all of these ships and more are glass cannons with their entire ship dedicated to a single roll.. dram speed/dmg kiting awesomeness( hey hes going to fast make him stop and he hurts thats not fair(compared to most things that go fast kite and dont hurt nearly as much or go as fast). curse (woops my caps gone cant tank die and when i shoot nothing hits him dang traking disrupts) scorp/widow/rook (hey how come i cant target anymore thats not fair, how does he expect me to counter that, hint:he doesnt thats why hes using that specific ship it also costs $$) .... list goes on... but thats jst my 0.02 isk and its probably been said before.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet	Posted - 2010.02.04 23:17:00 - [288] I've been following this thread since its inception, and I have to say this: Darthewok, stop beating a dead horse. The Dramiel is a great ship, but not everybody flies it. There are tens of thousands of players in Eve, and I would suspect only a very small portion of them fly faction ships in PVP, with an even smaller pinch flying Dramiels competitively. Even if they were priced higher, people would still fly them because the ship gives them an edge in combat. But the fact remains, it is a ship and it has HP, therefore it can be blown up. No amount of complaining about how it's overpowered or how it is the best ship in multiple classes is going to get CCP to change their minds. They went in to make faction ships special and they succeeded. Do you see every ship in Eve used? When was the last time you saw somebody flying a combat Augoror around? Or how about a Breacher for PVP? You just don't see some ships come to fruition. Others however blossom into an amazing ship with multiple people who want to care for it and make it their own. I personally do not want to make the Dramiel my own, however I find it to be an intriguing ship with great tackling abilities. I enjoy other ships because I play Eve to have fun, not to be the best. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Platoon Sergeant	Posted - 2010.02.05 00:19:00 - [289] Originally by: Kismo Edited by: Kismo on 04/02/2010 08:06:10 u asum that all pvp abt solo if drml cnt sty on fld in gng thn he is cntred lol i r noob ftrll You are a noob, tbh. You assume that small gang and solo pvp is about holding space. A solo dramiel doesn't have to fight a gang because it simply can't be caught by anything other than another dramiel. Bringing friends isn't a dramiel counter, it's a solo counter. Even then, you don't even get a kill out of it so it isn't even really a counter in the proper sense since you don't even kill the dramiel. You force a draw. Still waiting on that Dram km, btw.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.05 01:30:00 - [290] no i dont assume that small gang and solo pvp is about holding space tho it can be when you are looting the field but more importantly if your enemies have their tackler or any other person not able to stay on the field then they are down a person as well as if you had killed them sure you may not have the killmail but you won the fight the only thing a super fast inty is good for against any sized skilled gang is for annoying them and hey if you want to see a dramiel killmail with my name on it how about we set it up and then you look in your character sheet under the losses tab

Platoon Sergeant	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:10:00 - [291] Originally by: Kismo no i dont assume that small gang and solo pvp is about holding space tho it can be when you are looting the field but more importantly if your enemies have their tackler or any other person not able to stay on the field then they are down a person as well as if you had killed them sure you may not have the killmail but you won the fight the only thing a super fast inty is good for against any sized skilled gang is for annoying them and hey if you want to see a dramiel killmail with my name on it how about we set it up and then you look in your character sheet under the losses tab This is the case for any tackle frigate. But for the sake of it, lets play hypotheticals on your little strawman (nobody was arguing that you couldn't chase off a dramiel. the argument was that it vastly outclasses other frigates, which it does). You have two gangs, both with similar amounts of firepower and tank, but one has a Dramiel and one has a Taranis/Jag/Crusader etc. Both gangs decide it's prudent to chase off the others tackler. Both tacklers are chased out of weapons range, and the Dramiel kills the other sides tackler because it has a superior mix of speed, tank and firepower to all of them. Now the team without the Dramiel (your team) has to switch some DPS off their primary target so long as they want to keep the Dramiel away (this isn't a good choice, but its the solution you're suggesting). End result is that you are either down DPS on the opponents DPS-heavy ships (either by sending drones on the dram or switching it to primary when it comes in range), or just let it do its thing. In either case you concede initiative to the team with the Dramiel because they have better control of the battlefield.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:46:00 - [292] One of the issues, in my opinion, is that in order best the Dramiel with another frigate, said other frigate must dedicate 4 midslots (AB, dual web, scram) in order to be able to hold the Dramiel down. Unfortunately, the only frigates with enough midslots to do so are shield tankers with very few lowslots, which renders it tankless and generally unable to actually survive the Dramiel's return fire. I'll admit that my Dramiel very nearly died today to a Harpy with the above midslot configuration. I only survived the engagement because I had a buddy nearby that was able to assist in killing the Harpy. One may argue however that such a Harpy fit has no use outside of baiting and countering Dramiels and is thus moot.
Noskill McCheese Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.05 03:06:00 - [293] 2 rifters
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:01:00 - [294] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa No amount of complaining about how it's overpowered or how it is the best ship in multiple classes is going to get CCP to change their minds. Oh how very wrong you are the problem is when ccp does nerf the dramiel, it will be subpar at best, completely useless at worst _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.05 06:46:00 - [295] Originally by: XXSketchxx Originally by: Siigari Kitawa No amount of complaining about how it's overpowered or how it is the best ship in multiple classes is going to get CCP to change their minds. Oh how very wrong you are the problem is when ccp does nerf the dramiel, it will be subpar at best, completely useless at worst This really. When they nerfbat things they almost never settle for "enough". ____________________________________________________________
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet	Posted - 2010.02.05 08:13:00 - [296] Originally by: Raimo Originally by: XXSketchxx Originally by: Siigari Kitawa No amount of complaining about how it's overpowered or how it is the best ship in multiple classes is going to get CCP to change their minds. Oh how very wrong you are the problem is when ccp does nerf the dramiel, it will be subpar at best, completely useless at worst This really. When they nerfbat things they almost never settle for "enough". While you traditionally would be correct - both of you - in saying CCP will nerf a ship which gets complaints into the stone age, this time I think CCP is standing by their design decision. This is a frigate. This frigate is not going to cause Eve to end, and the ship is only truly viable in certain areas of the game. Due to this fact, CCP will probably not change anything simply because it's not that big of a deal. Every time a new ship comes out that is better than another ship, previous ships get put in second place. For example, it used to be a Claw or Stiletto that were suuppperrr fassttt but now there's a new kid on the block. The Taranis was the undisputed brawler of choice, and while some may disagree I believe it remains to be. Unless you're finding brawling Dramiels which in my opinion is dangerous and foolhardy. Let it go. CCP is going to leave it alone. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2010.02.05 08:14:00 - [297] Dramiel is a bit fast, but it is only overpowered if you compare to the other frigates, which happen to be super terrible. Worm for example is total garbage, Dramiel is certainly OP compared to a worm. However the Dramiel is not going to be solopwning hacs or anything.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.05 09:16:00 - [298] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ..This is a frigate. This frigate is not going to cause Eve to end, and the ship is only truly viable in certain areas of the game. Due to this fact, CCP will probably not change anything simply because it's not that big of a deal... Problem with that chain of logic is that the Dramiel is significantly better than ALL other frigates. Not just some, but all. It is faster than Interceptors, it can out-tank AFs and it can out-damage a large portion of them to boot .. "standard" fit does not do all of them at once of course, but it can be set up to do just about anything and will almost always require extremely specific fits to counter. Pirate hulls were to be "slightly" better than T2 .. Dramiel breaks that mould by a large margin. CCP chose to revamp the entire speed part of the game to get rid of just four ships being abused (Vagabond, Rapier/Hugginn, Ishtar) during the nano-age. Making a single adjustment to a single hull is far more likely than you might think. Originally by: Asuka Smith Dramiel is a bit fast, but it is only overpowered if you compare to the other frigates, which happen to be super terrible. Worm for example is total garbage, Dramiel is certainly OP compared to a worm. However the Dramiel is not going to be solopwning hacs or anything. HACs are dying in droves to them, even Vagabonds .. the supposed bane of frigates. Even BCs are being soloed by them .. still haven't seen a BS mail, but with buffer tanks being the norm I doubt the ADHD Dramiel pilots have the patience to wear one down. Worm will be godly when/if CCP gets around to buffing rockets, start stockpiling them now
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.02.05 09:19:00 - [299] Originally by: Asuka Smith Dramiel is a bit fast, but it is only overpowered if you compare to the other frigates, which happen to be super terrible. Worm for example is total garbage, Dramiel is certainly OP compared to a worm. However the Dramiel is not going to be solopwning hacs or anything. Uh, Vaga and ishtar aside, which HAC would a Dram not (eventually) kill, provided it got into scram range fast? Deimos would have to get a jam with EC-600s, arty Muninn would die if the Dram stays out of small neut range and pops the warriors. The Zealot, Eagle, and Sac would die horribly. AML cerberus (lol) would win easily, but HML cerberus would die.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.02.05 09:26:00 - [300] People need to stop trying to make the good ships that are flown to be rendered useless as a lot of ships are in eve. thatis BAD FOR THE GAME. What should be focused is on how to make the other less useful ships reahc same desirability to be used, specially iof kept with different flavors. Be it by boosting or changing bonuses or reducing/tweaking components so its price diminish (something I think t2 frigates NEED right now). Dramiel only found itself on this position because each of the pirate factions has a flavor and theme and the angel themes matches PERFECTLY the FRIGATE size combat repertorie. YOu ca see as how the gilla and machariel, while powerfull, are NOT as predominant over the other factions. Specially on BS level, where the huge speed of machariel will not keep it safe from tacklers (if you want to solo pimp pvp a bhalghorn is still more powerful). How do you make OTHER things, not speed and agility become very useful for a frigate class? Gurista bonuses are bit weirdo for frigates... blood raider ones also (specially since sentinel already covers that role). Sansha one need more oomph, the direction is ok but need a tad more of it. Serpentis have an okish one, problem its eclipsed by fact dramiel already have MORE than enough dps. The interceptors and AF could use a production cost (by components) adjustment to slightly decrease their cost. AF NEED the AB boost, even if reduced to become another interesting and useful option in battlefield.



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