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Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.02.06 08:41:00 - [361] Originally by: Kirzath Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it. A well-flown rifter can quite happily kill any combat intie even though it costs around 50x less. Is it the Rifter that's OP or the inties that are in need of a boost?
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 09:38:00 - [362] Originally by: Kirzath I call it "one" of the best because the Dramiel is directly countered by the Cruor and the Daredevil. Both of the latter are good at their own roles, but the Dramiel is the most popularily used frigate by Genos because it excels at what we do best: guerrilla warfare. What's the role of other pirate frigates? Eg, role of rail daredevil or cruor (you know, countering Dramiel is a bad role).
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.06 09:41:00 - [363] I wonder if Darthewok ever reads all his posts and sees how stupid they are. Buy my Jaguar, Darthewok - you can then get the ~secret fit~. Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Originally by: Kirzath Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it. A well-flown rifter can quite happily kill any combat intie even though it costs around 50x less. Is it the Rifter that's OP or the inties that are in need of a boost? You are really dumb. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
King Dave The Asha'man	Posted - 2010.02.06 09:51:00 - [364] Originally by: Intigo I wonder if Darthewok ever reads all his posts and sees how stupid they are. Buy my Jaguar, Darthewok - you can then get the ~secret fit~. Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Originally by: Kirzath Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it. A well-flown rifter can quite happily kill any combat intie even though it costs around 50x less. Is it the Rifter that's OP or the inties that are in need of a boost? You are really dumb. "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.02.06 10:02:00 - [365] Originally by: Intigo You are really dumb. ~no u~
BelonaMMX	Posted - 2010.02.06 11:58:00 - [366] Threw this together, fight outside scram range, the mwd is perma if no point needed IE gang use, but if needed u still got a hefty cap, shields tank about 3k of total dmg and yea can use OD for speed, but the purpose of this is to fight with dual prop not run away. Any ideas?? Btw cant use the MSEII yet due to need to get AWU 4 so the cpu doesnt cause an issue or buy a more expensive Aux Power unit eh just an idea.... [Dramiel, PermaMWD Dramiel] 2x 200mm AutoCannon II (Barrage S) Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I 1x Warrior II 3x Warrior II [Statistics - ] Effective HP: 6,086 Tank Ability: 16.81 DPS Damage Profile - <Omni-Damage> (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%) Shield Resists - EM: 38.75%, Ex: 56.25%, Ki: 47.50%, Th: 30.00% Armor Resists - EM: 66.00%, Ex: 23.50%, Ki: 36.25%, Th: 44.75% Capacitor: Lasts 4m 50s Volley Damage: 376.77 DPS: 112.92
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.06 12:03:00 - [367] I think you should fly that ship. And then bring it to KBP area and fight my Dramiel. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
Demolishar	Posted - 2010.02.06 12:52:00 - [368] The Dramiel is a Frigate. This means on Battleclinic you get many, many points when killing anything with one. And a Dramiel is worth exactly 9 isk on battleclinic, so it doesnt hurt your isk lost to lose one. It's great for pimpin your killboard stats
crastar	Posted - 2010.02.06 13:07:00 - [369] Originally by: Kirzath Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it. This.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 13:15:00 - [370] Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong?

Abbot Laarkin Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks	Posted - 2010.02.06 13:35:00 - [371] Edited by: Abbot Laarkin on 06/02/2010 13:41:16 Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong? You're not flying a Dramiel. On a more serious note. I have no problem with the Dram being better than inties or AF, It's the fact that it can be better than both at the same time, with the same fit, that is a little over the top. It is also far too easy to be better in the Dram, the margin of error when flying it is bigger than it should be. If you are going to have a ship that is that good I feel that it should be unforgiving of even the slightest of mistakes. As it stands the Dramiel is just too easy an Iwin button, keep it good by all means, but make it harder to be that good. ---- Originally by: Sir Carnage Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37? I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.06 17:47:00 - [372] Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong? That part. You know, the part where the Dramiel is supposed to be better. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.06 18:34:00 - [373] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong? That part. You know, the part where the Dramiel is supposed to be better. -Liang So dramiel is supposed to be better because it costs more than other frigs. At the same time it supposed to be better than more expensive ships well... because its dramiel. Lol.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 18:50:00 - [374] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 06/02/2010 18:50:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong? That part. You know, the part where the Dramiel is supposed to be better. -Liang Hey, but i spent more iskies on better fitting alone than dramiel owners spend on the fitted ship? Isn't my setup supposed to be better than t2-fit dramiel? If nope - why?
Bhug Divine Anarchy	Posted - 2010.02.06 18:54:00 - [375] I think CCP should just give all frigs the same stats, and no fitting slots like shuttles. So we all just slowboat into each others optimal,and let the one who pushes the fire button first, win. Removes the pain of thinking up strategies and such, and removes the boost this, nerf that whining. T3 frigs should have the possibility of adding a spoiler to the model, or cool racing stripes.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.06 18:55:00 - [376] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Say, i invest 300m into an interceptor for a decent fitting - i still can't kill dramiel. What i'm doing wrong? That part. You know, the part where the Dramiel is supposed to be better. -Liang So dramiel is supposed to be better because it costs more than other frigs. At the same time it supposed to be better than more expensive ships well... because its dramiel. Lol. No, because it is supposed to be better than a ceptor. I really don't know why you have a problem understanding that Deva. The only thing left is to tweak a couple of the others up to the Dramiels level. You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said about the Crow or the Taranis when they were top of the heap. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:14:00 - [377] What im saying the line of defence of unbalanced ships/weapons/whatever on EVE forums are always hilarious. Its supposed to be good coz its expensive is ALWAYS the first one. Suddenly you find worse but more expensive ship and line of defence changes drastically (because its dramiel, because its fast, because its supposed to be better anyways, because of falcon - select ones you prefer). And when it comes to dramiel i already said all that had to be. Lose midslot or lose speed.
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Genophage Remnant	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:16:00 - [378] Originally by: Bhug I think CCP should just give all frigs the same stats, and no fitting slots like shuttles. So we all just slowboat into each others optimal,and let the one who pushes the fire button first, win. Removes the pain of thinking up strategies and such, and removes the boost this, nerf that whining. T3 frigs should have the possibility of adding a spoiler to the model, or cool racing stripes. People asking for the Dramiel nerf want more diversity among frigates, not less. Prior to Dominion, you would see all sorts of frigates flying around solo in low sec. They didn't all have the same stats, but players didn't automatically default to one frigate over the others. If you wanted more speed then an AF, you would fly a interceptor. If you wanted a little more gank and tank than a ceptor, you'd fly an AF. Crusaders, Claws, Taranises, Crows, Jags, Harpies, and Ishkurs were all part of this diverse ecosystem. Then CCP dropped the new Dramiel into TQ. Now, if you want more speed than an AF, you fly a Dramiel. If you want more Gank & tank than an interceptor, you fly a Dramiel. Diversity has been cut down to nil, because everybody and their mother is flying a Dramiel. Yes, Dramiel's are more expensive than T2 frigs, but I personally found the diversity of frigates pre-dominion more exciting than the current atmosphere of "Fly a Dramiel, because everything else is outclassed." Anyways, that's my only post on this topic. I try to avoid this huge nerf threads for a reason. _________ My name is Pater!
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:22:00 - [379] Edited by: Raimo on 06/02/2010 19:23:28 Originally by: Deva Blackfire What im saying the line of defence of unbalanced ships/weapons/whatever on EVE forums are always hilarious. Its supposed to be good coz its expensive is ALWAYS the first one. Suddenly you find worse but more expensive ship and line of defence changes drastically (because its dramiel, because its fast, because its supposed to be better anyways, because of falcon - select ones you prefer). And when it comes to dramiel i already said all that had to be. Lose midslot or lose speed. Actually, IMHO CCP made the new faction ships (and pirate ships especially) "OP" by design, like they even hinted at in the devblog. They wanted to shake up gameplay, and they wanted to reward and incentisive the pirate faction mission runners (and the new epic arcs) with great LP/ ISK. They wanted to boost 0.0 iskmaking, remember? Now if the dram was nerfed its price would crash and that mission would have failed, so they really should just boost some of the less used pirate frigs and leave it at that (and IMHO they might actually do just that without doing much to the dram)... The AF and rocket boosts are hopefully coming soon as well as well as T3 frigs (I wish) so things will change yet again pretty soon anyway. ____________________________________________________________
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:23:00 - [380] Originally by: Bhug I think CCP should just give all frigs the same stats, and no fitting slots like shuttles. So we all just slowboat into each others optimal,and let the one who pushes the fire button first, win. Removes the pain of thinking up strategies and such, and removes the boost this, nerf that whining. T3 frigs should have the possibility of adding a spoiler to the model, or cool racing stripes. Yea, it's already in the direction you like. Replace all frigates with dramiels and that's it.

Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:34:00 - [381] Originally by: Raimo Actually, IMHO CCP made the new faction ships (and pirate ships especially) "OP" by design, like they even hinted at in the devblog. They wanted to shake up gameplay, and they wanted to reward and incentisive the pirate faction mission runners (and the new epic arcs) with great LP/ ISK. They wanted to boost 0.0 iskmaking, remember? Dramiel is the only ship without weaknesses at all (2nd is daredevil, but as stated it cannot escape from its optimal as fast as dramiel and that's how it dies to baiting cruisers/BSs). With huge isk/personal skill/attention investments using some not-so-popular setups i can kill 1x1 almost any other pirate frigate (it can be just ship with lots of gank/tank or some crazy kiting, depends on the enemy and his expected setup). Dramiel is cheap, and even with cheap fitting and less-than-avg-skilled pilot will kill me without applying any significant efforts. For some ppl it may be okayish, but not for me as i prefer games designed around 'easy to learn, hard to master' approach. (earning 100 mils for a dram + fitting isn't hard at all)
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.06 19:42:00 - [382] 7 more pages since i last looked . Says alot about how is dram in line with other frigs. Also looks like all genos fly drams and dont want them nerfed. Originally by: Raimo They wanted to boost 0.0 iskmaking, remember? Now if the dram was nerfed its price would crash and that mission would have failed... Do you realize how stupid argument is this? Would you leave one ship op just to make some carebears happy /not saying there are enough other things in angel lp store to get nice isk from?/.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.06 21:32:00 - [383] Really the only issue here is the ship's ability to run away. It ****es people off. I wouldn't call a ship that can escape easily "OP", however I also wouldn't say running around playing grab-ass with people so afraid to lose a ship really adds much in the way of entertainment to the game in general. I support any and all changes that keep people in the fight more often till something blows up. Cat and mouse can be fun here and there but gets old fast and usually seems like a giant waste of time afterwards. The Dramiel can stay the way it is, hell bring back nanos, I don't really care. It's just only going to improve the gameplay experience of those that like to minimize their commitment to a PVP fight. If there are more people that enjoy nano warfare than those that don't then more ships should get the same ability to dodge and pick fights due to speed, but it's not gonna get my vote. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.06 22:18:00 - [384] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus A well-flown rifter can quite happily kill any combat intie even though it costs around 50x less. Is it the Rifter that's OP or the inties that are in need of a boost? I've popped well over a 100 Rifters in my combat Inty solo. I've never ever lost an Inty to a solo Rifter. I've been popped many times by Dramiels, in fact, over 50% of my killmails the since the Dramiel upgrade have a Dramiel on them. It's rare to not come across a Dramiel in FW these days. The difference between a well-flown Rifter and a well-flown Dramiel are huge. My Crusader has come very close to killing a Dramiel several times, but either I popped myself before I could finish it, I was out of cap due to neuting before being able to finish it, or the Dramiel pulled out of range before I could land the last shot. Normally, Crusader doesn't stand a chance, and it took some extreme piloting to get even close to killing one. It has superior speed It has superior range It has superior EHP It has superior tracking It has superior DPS It is immune to neuting It has superior sensor strength It excels in all areas important in frig combat and with no clear weakness to exploit I struggle to take one out 1vs1 with any Amarr ship it will engage. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.06 22:44:00 - [385] Originally by: Merdaneth I've popped well over a 100 Rifters in my combat Inty solo. I've never ever lost an Inty to a solo Rifter. Proper ab-scram-web rifter can kill blasteranis, crusader is much harder as its effective range covers ~10 km with comparable dps/tank. It's still possible though. Originally by: Merdaneth My Crusader has come very close to killing a Dramiel several times, but either I popped myself before I could finish it, I was out of cap due to neuting before being able to finish it, or the Dramiel pulled out of range before I could land the last shot. Normally, Crusader doesn't stand a chance, and it took some extreme piloting to get even close to killing one. Correct, it's extremely stupid to engage Dramiel in 1x1 using any interceptor with any fitting. I can't imagine setup which will defeat proper dual-prop or web dramiel (i tried hard though). The only things you can rely is that pilot is total noob or doesn't have decent ingame skills.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.02.06 23:40:00 - [386] You can make a vengeance that perma tanks it.. and kills him of boredom :)
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.06 23:42:00 - [387] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So dramiel is supposed to be better because it costs more than other frigs. At the same time it supposed to be better than more expensive ships well... because its dramiel. Lol. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Hey, but i spent more iskies on better fitting alone than dramiel owners spend on the fitted ship? Isn't my setup supposed to be better than t2-fit dramiel? If nope - why? No, you guys are totally straw manning that. The dev blog specifically stated that pirate frigates were supposed to be better than T2 frigates. They are supposed to obsolete T2 frigates. Think of it this way - what you guys are saying is that spending 300 million ISK on a Merlin should make it better than a AF than a Taranis or Ishkur or Crusader. But it doesn't... and that is by design. The real question IMO is why the Cruor and Worm are so lackluster. TL;DR: The Dramiel might be (is slightly) overpowered, but you cannot use comparisons to T2 frigates to say so since CCP intentionally and by design obsoleted T2 frigates with pirate frigates. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2010.02.06 23:51:00 - [388] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So dramiel is supposed to be better because it costs more than other frigs. At the same time it supposed to be better than more expensive ships well... because its dramiel. Lol. Quick intro to something more than basic economics: sometimes increased demand drives prices down. Especially when demand is extremely high. Suddenly more people want an item. This creates a gold-rush effect and more people start to try to acquire said item. At least some do. The few who got in early make a huge profit while the supply side of the curve is still ridiculously high while the others would have probably been better off not even chasing the item in the first place because so many others are doing the same thing. The Dramiel is now famously good. Lots of people are farming for them. Prices have gone down. In areas of luxury goods with less demand -- I haven't checked prices lately so I'm guessing -- like the Worm, no one is farming them and so it actually takes more effort to get one and hence demands a higher price. This break in the rule of supply and demand is extremely typical in EVE and is why people check both prices and volume before spending LP: conversion rates are variable, but demand is also a major factor in how quickly you can convert intangibles into ISK. Comparing the Dramiel based on its cost is stupid. Comparing it on volume is stupid. So let's try to compare it on performance and abilities instead, no?
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.07 00:09:00 - [389] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 07/02/2010 00:16:36 Originally by: Liang Nuren TL;DR: The Dramiel might be (is slightly) overpowered, but you cannot use comparisons to T2 frigates to say so since CCP intentionally and by design obsoleted T2 frigates with pirate frigates. Obsoleting 1.5 frigate-sized classes is not making pirate ships slightly more powerful: Dev blog Quote: Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. That is, pirate = t2 or slightly better - on that level where other factors can make the difference. Why vindicators and machariels do not obsolete even t1 megathrons (and any other BS) at the same degree dramiel 'obsoletes' interceptors? Why absolute price of hull and fitting is still not taken into account? Really, nobody is willing to pay bil+ for a vindicator as it will be killed almost as easily as t1 megathron due to pecularities of BS-sized combat. Frigate warfare has completely other specifics and frigates are flown by the same guys who could fly BS but prefer smaller spacecraft (while having good level of income, which is confirmed by the popularity of dramiels). I lol'ed today when FC told my friend (he has just 1.5 month old character and takes part in mid-sized roamings) to replace his rifter with dramiel, and he did it in just few hours. Even such young character can afford spending 75 mils for buying something that should be 'elite' ship, what's about older, more seasoned players? Originally by: Zhilia Mann Comparing the Dramiel based on its cost is stupid. Comparing it on volume is stupid. So let's try to compare it on performance and abilities instead, no? It should be taken into account, but as stand-alone balancing factor when frigate attributes are already balanced.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.02.07 00:13:00 - [390] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 07/02/2010 00:13:38 http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=705 Quote: Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. The thing is Dramiel is neither focused and niche nor is it on par or slightly above them. Theres a fat chasm between them. And I don't see the statement where it says they're to obsolete them. T2 were supposed to be specialized already. And the dev blog states that these guys were supposed to be even more specific focused niche roles. Dramiel ended up being a one stop shop catchall frigate that can do everything, with massive improvements compared to any t2 ship. Compared to an inty, its not slightly above it, its massively. Its way faster than inty and way more tank/gank. Compared to an AF its way faster and completely abuses them. Compared to EAS's, it has high signal strength, capless weapons and drones to boot. Not to mention tank/gank and speed. And yes compared to other faction frigates its above them as well, cause its not Niche at all. It is the swiss army knife atm of all the frigates currently available. Yes of course a very expensive swiss army knife but one that does everything. edit: haha kadesh said the same thing while I was typing this up.



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