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Calydonian Boar	Posted - 2010.03.09 14:50:00 - [541] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Calydonian Boar If you can easily kill a 70m ship in a regular frigate, then whats the purpose? Do you see where I m getting at? In other words, if I pay 70M for a regular frigate, it should have 50/50 chance to win a duel with a Dramiel? Dramiel is expensive because it's good and people are willing to pay for it. It's not good because it's expensive. In fights people like to shoot the expensive shinny stuff to win the isk fight... now that's a fact when you get in to the fight, everyone will shoot you and then eventhough they die, they will be like "hey at least we got the dramiel!" ... same goes for other faction ships... they need to have specific properties that will give them advantage... all faction ships are superior to their own classes, but it's only dramiel that sticks out because it's the cheapest class and used more often.. A cynabal is superior to a vaga, it can field same/more dps with a better tank... vigilant is superior to deimos... vindicator is superior to kronos... lets nerf all of those ships as well than... so what dramiel is superior to ceptors? they are not even superior to all t2's... AFs can take dramiels easily once they tackle them.. dramiels can never take place of light tackling ceptors because ceptors are disposable... unless you are rich or don't care about isk, you need a logi behind your dramiel to use it as tackle because it will die... I saw it happen, hell I lost one like that.. I couldn't care less about drams being nerfed however its the perception of people that bugs me
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.09 15:09:00 - [542] Originally by: Calydonian Boar when you get in to the fight, everyone will shoot you and then eventhough they die, they will be like "hey at least we got the dramiel!" Maybe in your lol gang, in competent gan ppl shoot what fc will call primary. But if someone sacrifices whole fight for one frig, its not my problem. Originally by: Calydonian Boar all faction ships are superior to their own classes Yes they are superior to t1 counterparts /and different to t2/ - only frig hulls are exception /afs vs faction frigs/. Originally by: Calydonian Boar but it's only dramiel that sticks out because it's the cheapest class and used more often Its because dramiel is arguably best and most versatile frig around and obsoletes all frig hulls /maybe except tackle inties/. Originally by: Calydonian Boar so what dramiel is superior to ceptors? they are not even superior to all t2's They are. Originally by: Calydonian Boar AFs can take dramiels easily once they tackle them Some lol ab frigs maybe. But you can fit lol ab only dram too. Originally by: Calydonian Boar dramiels can never take place of light tackling ceptors They are already doing this - they have taken the role of superfast scram tackler that can survive tackling of most ships because of dualprop and mse.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition	Posted - 2010.03.09 17:36:00 - [543] Originally by: Calydonian Boar vigilant is superior to deimos... vindicator is superior to kronos... lets nerf all of those ships as well than... This is a lot less funny as it sounds, since CCP is very good at handing out nerfs to blaster PVP every time they rebalance to fast ships since 2007. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Qadehar Killuwell FM Corp Vanguard.	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:29:00 - [544] Edited by: Qadehar Killuwell on 09/03/2010 18:35:43 [Imperial Navy Slicer, Anti-Dramiel] Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II 1MN Afterburner II Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S [empty high slot] Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I With my skills: Imperial Navy MF: 157 dps overloaded at 5km Scorch: 125 dps overloaded at 15km 10k EHP 900m/s, 1100 overloaded Implants: i use the 2 1% dmg implants, the 1% tracking and the 1% armor HP. All that is very cheap (i use the DG scram because that's where I live, but a best named will do just the same) and SHOULD (if flown properly) kill a Dramiel that wishes to engage. Byt the time it realises it has entered a fight it is unlikely to win, it will probably disengage but you have until it reaches 12.6 km to kill it with Scorch as, yes, you won't be able to tackle it for long. But this ship is a slow ****, not an interceptor after all.
Andrea Skye Caldari The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:32:00 - [545] LEAVE DRAMIEL ALONE!
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:37:00 - [546] Originally by: Qadehar Killuwell ... This will die horribly to dram.
Qadehar Killuwell FM Corp Vanguard.	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:45:00 - [547] Last Dramiel I fought with that had to run away in structure.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.09 19:02:00 - [548] Originally by: Qadehar Killuwell Last Dramiel I fought with that had to run away in structure. Good for you that you have met incompetent pilot. Btw thats another thing, dram can disengage at will from that slicer.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.09 19:19:00 - [549] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Btw thats another thing, dram can disengage at will from that slicer. Not entirely accurate, should say: anything can disengage at will from that Slicer I tried the 400 plate Slicer, and dear god .. its a tug-boat sailing in molasses. It gets locked by non-SeBo battlecruisers for Goddess sake The most reliable way of killing them so far has been blobbing, preferably with a web range bonus ship along. PS: Who the hell reanimated this thread? Show yourself and be judged!
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.03.09 20:04:00 - [550] IF the Dramiel is not dual-prop and IF the Dramiel chooses to engage then A Sabre has the speed, tracking (10% per Destroyer level!), and DPS to kill a scrammed Dramiel orbiting within scram range, using 150mm AC II and faction ammo. However, it will be a close fight, since the Sabre's pathetic "tank" is not much more than the Dramiel's, and the Sabre has twice the sig. But a dual-prop Dramiel is pretty much unbeatable. Can engage and disengage at will. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.

Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:53:00 - [551] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Calydonian Boar when you get in to the fight, everyone will shoot you and then eventhough they die, they will be like "hey at least we got the dramiel!" Maybe in your lol gang, in competent gan ppl shoot what fc will call primary. But if someone sacrifices whole fight for one frig, its not my problem. Originally by: Calydonian Boar all faction ships are superior to their own classes Yes they are superior to t1 counterparts /and different to t2/ - only frig hulls are exception /afs vs faction frigs/. Originally by: Calydonian Boar but it's only dramiel that sticks out because it's the cheapest class and used more often Its because dramiel is arguably best and most versatile frig around and obsoletes all frig hulls /maybe except tackle inties/. Originally by: Calydonian Boar so what dramiel is superior to ceptors? they are not even superior to all t2's They are. Originally by: Calydonian Boar AFs can take dramiels easily once they tackle them Some lol ab frigs maybe. But you can fit lol ab only dram too. Originally by: Calydonian Boar dramiels can never take place of light tackling ceptors They are already doing this - they have taken the role of superfast scram tackler that can survive tackling of most ships because of dualprop and mse. You really hype it up a lot. One thing, it taks very little to obsoloete the already failed AFs. Thats why CCP is going to buff them (they trie teh AB speed boost, but that went bad ofc), and I hope they do it next expansion (along with rockets). So that leaves Intys. Yes, Dram beats most intys, and so what? My succubus beats mosty ints as well. So does my Daredevil. And on that point, the Daredevil will likly **** a Dram easily as well. Should we all just rally and cry nerf to the Daredevil as well? Get things a bit into perspective. Dram is good, but its not really overpowerd. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:41:00 - [552] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs So that leaves Intys. Yes, Dram beats most intys, and so what? My succubus beats mosty ints as well. So does my Daredevil. You are not reading it right, it is not about beating interceptor's in fights, it is supplanting them through superior speed/agility/sensors (S/A/S). Anything kills an interceptor, can be done in almost any T1 frigate as far as I have experienced (YMMV). If all the Dramiel had was S/A/S then there would be no problem, fact is though that it has AF tank AND damage on top of those uber-interceptor attributes .. that is why it is broken. Originally by: Sidus Isaacs And on that point, the Daredevil will likly **** a Dram easily as well. Daredevil's only desire, nay purpose, is to gank the snot out of stuff. To this end it has speed-control with a god-web and cruiser+ level damage but not much else. Tank, speed and all other attributes are mediocre (within faction domain) so it isn't OP in any normal sense of the word.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.10 11:48:00 - [553] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs ... Yes, my succubus can beat most inties too,only it will have hard time catching inty that doesnt want to engage/scram range - unlike dram. And no, dd shouldnt be nerfed - only thing it can do is wtfpwn frigs - nothing more. Its survivability cannot be compared to dram. And no, dram is overpowered. Even if there will be af boost, id still say dram should be nerfed first /just cut its speed/agility or dps/ - because its THAT good at preferred style of fight on frig level /controlling the fight against almost every other ship/.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.10 12:46:00 - [554] Dramiel has to be nerfed to be inline with the other pirate frigs. Same for cynabal.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.10 13:11:00 - [555] Originally by: Naomi Knight Dramiel has to be nerfed to be inline with the other pirate frigs. Same for cynabal. Then you would need to nerf Mach as well. Cruiser agility and speed and BS damage? Yet nobody really whines too much about it :). Making the Dram and cynabal into just another mediocre ship is not a good solution imo. If you really must do someting to the Dram, do it to its drones, and give the Worm proper drone damage bonuses. Then you got a better faction frig line more adjusted with each other. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.10 13:18:00 - [556] Originally by: Naomi Knight Dramiel has to be nerfed to be inline with the other pirate frigs. Same for cynabal. NO! Nerfing the Dramiel just makes other pirate frigs with their less subtle bonuses start glaring as way overpowered. For example, my Cruor with a 100% damage bonus, a neut bonus and a 90% web is sure to be beaten over the head with a stick to death until they are returned to a mere existence of collecting dust in a hangar. DO. NOT. NERF. THE. DRAMIEL. For the sake of ALL THE OTHER SHIPS don't do it! The Dramiel is fine. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.10 14:15:00 - [557] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 10/03/2010 14:15:25 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Naomi Knight Dramiel has to be nerfed to be inline with the other pirate frigs. Same for cynabal. Then you would need to nerf Mach as well. Cruiser agility and speed and BS damage? Yet nobody really whines too much about it :). Making the Dram and cynabal into just another mediocre ship is not a good solution imo. If you really must do someting to the Dram, do it to its drones, and give the Worm proper drone damage bonuses. Then you got a better faction frig line more adjusted with each other. No mach whine yet imho due to its cost over t1 battleships ,but it is still superior. Well if you look at the cynabal it costs 150m around ,which not much more than a simple t2 cruiser ,but it is much better. While dramiel cost much more than other t2 frigs,but it is still below 100m isk so most people can afford it easily. So here the incresed cost isnt a big issue. Just tell us what dramiel lacks? Nothing , it has no disadvantages at all. This is not the case with other pirate frigs. Those cant realy disengade at will. It should be balanced to the other pirate frigs. Siigari Kitawa I havent wrote it should be weaker than the other pirate frigs,nor that pirate frigs should be weaker some of them should be boosted, and dramiel nerfed to same lvl. Your cruor doesnt has over interceptor speed while having awesome tank+ dps like the dramiel. No the dramiel isnt fine at all.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.03.10 14:19:00 - [558] Hello
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.10 14:25:00 - [559] It isn't very hard. I'm ok with the drams because I'm making decent money off faction drops by killing them with cruisers. Example : http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=171952
Calydonian Boar	Posted - 2010.03.10 15:19:00 - [560] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 10/03/2010 14:40:12 It isn't very hard. I'm ok with the drams because I'm making decent money off faction drops by killing them with cruisers. Example : http://www.caldarimilitia.org/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=171952 The fact that all the fits here are like caracals and thrashers and other ships a dram would be stupid to engage points out to me how bad at the game you guys are. it seems like most of the comments here are about some imaginary supership that doesn't exist. "Drams have AF tank" makes me lol. Dramiel has a simple buffer tank that is not that different than a mse rifter. Dramiel has 1 more pg than a rifter so only thing rifter lacks is the damage. AFs have about twice the ehp of a dramiel, more dps than a dramiel. Only thing here in 19-paged thread that makes sense is the uberspeed of dramiel. Yes it has more speed than ceptors and eventhough it makes me said, I believe that it's the only nerf dramiel is going to get. They will probably make it slower than ceptors but any other point here like dram having an uber AF tank and dps is non-sense, and probably written by people who have never flown a dramiel, but got killed by one due their own mistake of not knowing what the opponent can do. To sum it up: - Dramiel has tank of AF ..... BS [They don't!] - Dramiel has DPS of an AF ... BS [They don't!] - Dramiel can replace ceptors. BS [They can't, its not cost effective, coz it' won't survive while tackling a cruiser... try tackling a vaga and good luck!] - Dramiel has overpowered speed... True [but that's the only way it can survive when all other kids in the ground want to shoot it, rather than shooting the poor ishkur pilot that can't move its a.ss] Take drams speed away and it will be just another faction ship in the killboard with LOL comments

Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.10 15:50:00 - [561] They whine because killing a dramiel is hard when it can disengage at will and is about impossible to catch in the first place. So a dramiel is in essential a flying middle finger for those who gate camp in null/low sec.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.03.10 15:52:00 - [562] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence I'm ok with the drams because I'm making decent money off faction drops by killing them with cruisers. What's your point? No one has said that they can't be killed, problem is at what cost. How much use is your 1600 plate, dual-web, small blaster Celestis against anything else but suicidal frigates? The fact that a pilot decides to suicide into a cruiser does says diddly squat about the ship he is flying. Originally by: Calydonian Boar To sum it up: - Dramiel has tank of AF ..... BS [They don't!] - Dramiel has DPS of an AF ... BS [They don't!] - Dramiel can replace ceptors. BS [They can't, its not cost effective, coz it' won't survive while tackling a cruiser... try tackling a vaga and good luck!] - Dramiel has overpowered speed... True [but that's the only way it can survive when all other kids in the ground want to shoot it, rather than shooting the poor ishkur pilot that can't move its a.ss] Take drams speed away and it will be just another faction ship in the killboard with LOL comments - Dramiel EHP is within 15% or so of common AF numbers, add in ludicrous speed and you have tank exceeding that of AFs. Speed and tracking is infinitely more powerful than any amount of tank/damage when it comes to frigate bouts. - Dramiel out damages the non-damage AFs (ishkur, vengeance, Jaguar, Hawk) using 'regular' fits. - Price has never been a reason not to fly a ship in a specific role, it is the isk-argument in new clothes. I have tackled a Vagabond for over 60 seconds in a crap-fit Punisher, luck does not factor in. - Dramiel is so fast that the fastest interceptors have to use two speed mods minimum to equal it. Combined with the stupidly high agility it can not be caught, ever, unless the pilots wills it. No one except the insane would remove the speed from it since it would become utterly useless compared to its brethren. Damage/tank/agilty/drones/slots however .. it needs a clear focus/niche and not excel at everything at once to be balanced.
Orfhlaith	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:10:00 - [563] I have said it before. This is a simple fix. 1 less mid slot for the dram. It forces a dram pilot to either dual prop and no MSE or single prop and MSE. they could still run if the go dual prop, or the could tank if they go single prop and MSE. They just cant do both like they can now. Or they could do both without a scram in which case they arent as effective as they are now. Solves alot of problems and doesnt nerf the dram. Just forces choices
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.03.10 16:15:00 - [564] Originally by: Calydonian Boar ... Plain lies. Im not surprised, because you clearly have no relevant arguments. Dramiel has 7k ehp buffer /and can do dualprop unlike your mse rifter/. Standard buffer for afs is 8k. Dram can do around 220 dps with selectable damage type, excellent tracking, decent falloff and without need for cap. So - retri, vengeance, hawk are complete trash, enyo and wolf have only 2 mids - ishkur, jag and harpy left... jag has less dps than dram, harpy around same, ishkur more /at optimal/ - only that dram is 2x faster than harpy or ishkur and they cant do dualprop reliably. Dram can replace inty - its already happening, btw it has definitely better chance to tackle vaga than any inty. Dram has op speed. Take drams speed away and it will be inline with other pirate frigs /except worm, it will still be subpar/.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.03.10 17:10:00 - [565] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Calydonian Boar ... Plain lies. Im not surprised, because you clearly have no relevant arguments. Dramiel has 7k ehp buffer /and can do dualprop unlike your mse rifter/. Standard buffer for afs is 8k. Dram can do around 220 dps with selectable damage type, excellent tracking, decent falloff and without need for cap. So - retri, vengeance, hawk are complete trash, enyo and wolf have only 2 mids - ishkur, jag and harpy left... jag has less dps than dram, harpy around same, ishkur more /at optimal/ - only that dram is 2x faster than harpy or ishkur and they cant do dualprop reliably. Dram can replace inty - its already happening, btw it has definitely better chance to tackle vaga than any inty. Dram has op speed. Take drams speed away and it will be inline with other pirate frigs /except worm, it will still be subpar/. This. My raptor is completly useless compared to a dramiel :( havent used it for this reason after pirate frig patch.
Captain Nares	Posted - 2010.03.10 18:46:00 - [566] Now I fly dramiel too and don't want it to be nerfed any more. CCP, boost AF and roflkets!
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.10 19:57:00 - [567] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida What's your point? No one has said that they can't be killed, problem is at what cost. How much use is your 1600 plate, dual-web, small blaster Celestis against anything else but suicidal frigates? The fact that a pilot decides to suicide into a cruiser does says diddly squat about the ship he is flying. Actually, people are saying that. Read the rest of this thread. Look at the thread title. "What is a counter to a dramiel?" Well, a cruiser for one. If my 15 mil celestis fit can nail a 150 million isk faction fit dram why does it need any other purpose? It's purpose is to kill drams who don't realize its dual web fit and then loot their wrecks. And its good at that. And without knowing my fit the dramiels aren't "suicidal", they just think their dual prop will save them. Only it won't. That's how you kill people - you take advantage of deception. Does that mean I don't think the dram should be adjusted? Not at all, my point is that I'll make lemons into lemonade and profit on the dramiel hype.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.03.10 20:32:00 - [568] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Dramiel is so fast that the fastest interceptors have to use two speed mods minimum to equal it. Combined with the stupidly high agility it can not be caught, ever, unless the pilots wills it. It's agility is actually in line with all other frigates. But its mass is only 700,000 kg. That is why it flies so fast on a MWD. Even with the MWD mass penalty, it is still less massive than almost every interceptor, before the MWD mass penalty is added. And since the nano nerf 2 years ago no modules or implants subtract mass, so there is no way any interceptor can ever catch a Dramiel. Whatever you do to an inty to set it up to catch a Dramiel, the Dramiel can do that same thing, and then outrun the inty. -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.03.10 20:39:00 - [569] I always thought the whine was the Dramiel counter.
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.10 21:53:00 - [570] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Calydonian Boar ... Plain lies. Im not surprised, because you clearly have no relevant arguments. I find Mr. Boar's arguments to be very constructive and useful to the overall goal of getting the Dramiel rebalanced. Please do not flame him, we should encourage him to post more, not less.



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