Originally by: CCP Incognito

---

PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

---

Originally by: Terianna Eri

---

Worth pointing out that the slicer doesn't have "far lower dps" than a dramiel - your fit + 3 warriors deals 179, compared to a slicer's 172 with medium pulse + heat sink + faction multifreq.

Slicer may or may not win depending on the range the fight starts at and fits, and it is much slower (1700+m/s slower depending on fits), but damage isn't the issue.

Also for a hypothetical daredevil v. dramiel match, I doubt the neut is the problem, cuase I doubt the fight will last that long either way.

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

Hmm, I never thought of a rail daredevil, clever.

So basically you gotta straddle the very thin line of being outside of the 6.2km neut range ,and the 9km scram range?

---

Originally by: Terianna Eri

---

[Thrasher, solo]

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel.

---

Originally by: Jadokun

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

Cruor is easily capable of soloing a Dramiel.

---

QFT. I saw this first hand.

---

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

---

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/01/2010 09:55:58
More like a 9km+ (if you can overheat scram/have faction one). Daredevil controls the distance, so when speeds are dropped and if you're >3-5 km away from it - most likely that you won. As for your fitting - i prefer DPS over tank, so for me t2 aerator is better choice (also it helps to break active tanks). Besides, it doesn't cost much if you manufacture it yourself.

---

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

---

Dramiel is a nerf waiting to happen. It has superior speed, drones, slot layout, ample damage, tracking .. you name it

Originally by: Terianna Eri

---

Worth pointing out that the slicer doesn't have "far lower dps" than a dramiel - your fit + 3 warriors deals 179, compared to a slicer's 172 with medium pulse + heat sink + faction multifreq.

Slicer may or may not win depending on the range the fight starts at and fits, and it is much slower (1700+m/s slower depending on fits), but damage isn't the issue.

Also for a hypothetical daredevil v. dramiel match, I doubt the neut is the problem, cuase I doubt the fight will last that long either way.

---

Slicer won't win period. MPII DPS versus a Dramiel is 30-40 max once the infernal tracking formula has taken its pound of flesh, been there done that.
You need DLP to even have a chance of taking it to armour, but winning is only going to happen if the Dramiel messes up.

Best counter for Dramiel's is anything with high tracking like a Thrasher .. in ships with less you need dual-webs so bringing buddies is often the best alternative.

PS: Yes I hate the filthy things with a vengeance, at least people get to pay through the nose for them

---

Originally by: CCP Incognito

---

PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

So wait, you need a 120m faction frigate, with rail fittings not standard blaster fit

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

and a faction scram and faction web? Thats ******ed **** right there if you need all that just to kill a dramiel. The 6.2 to 9km is with normal gear. If I want to operate at farther ranges to be safer and guarantee the win I need to fork out that much more just to kill the dramiel? Thats beyond ******ed.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

It's not like a sentinel who's drones can get shot down.

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

[Wolf Fitting]...but for sure he ain't got a chance if he decides to stay and fight.

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

Other frigate sized ships that can kill a dramiel: Navy Slicer, Daredevil, Taranis, Succubus, Claw, Ishkur and why not, even the Rifter?

---

Originally by: Fearr Dorchaa

---

Might be relveant might not, engaged a dramiel at a gate there recently in 0 sec in my dual CDFE Jag, had scram and web on him and was working through his warior II's when he ****ing jammed me... ECM Dramiel? WTF?

Maybe the reason he couldnt pull away from me was that he wasnt dual prop due to the ECM (or maybe he was crap)

I deaggro'd and tanked him long enough to jump out but would have fancied my chances ECM aside

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

---

Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 27/01/2010 09:55:58
More like a 9km+ (if you can overheat scram/have faction one). Daredevil controls the distance, so when speeds are dropped and if you're >3-5 km away from it - most likely that you won. As for your fitting - i prefer DPS over tank, so for me t2 aerator is better choice (also it helps to break active tanks). Besides, it doesn't cost much if you manufacture it yourself.

---

So wait, you need a 120m faction frigate, with rail fittings not standard blaster fit, and a faction scram and faction web? Thats ******ed **** right there if you need all that just to kill a dramiel. The 6.2 to 9km is with normal gear. If I want to operate at farther ranges to be safer and guarantee the win I need to fork out that much more just to kill the dramiel? Thats beyond ******ed.

---

Originally by: CrazySpaceHobo

---

Classic AML Caracal
This will Kill it, For sure.
I've taken orbiting intys into low-armor in one volley with this, it's comedy to see them try and flee once they realise they're done for.

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

[Wolf Fitting]...but for sure he ain't got a chance if he decides to stay and fight.

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

Other frigate sized ships that can kill a dramiel: Navy Slicer, Daredevil, Taranis, Succubus, Claw, Ishkur and why not, even the Rifter?

---

You clearly have no idea what are you talking about. There are only few frig sized ships that can kill properly fitted dramiel in 1v1, and its dramiel pilot who chooses if he want to engage that ships or not...
Btw that wolf is lol, do you realize its slower than standard dominion vaga /2x poly/?

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

Get your Dramiel, I'll get my wolf and let's see who survives, if you choose to fight. But most probably you will not choose to fight.

---

Originally by: Ko Shimin

---

...clueless bull****...

---

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

---

Originally by: CrazySpaceHobo

---

Classic AML Caracal
This will Kill it, For sure.
I've taken orbiting intys into low-armor in one volley with this, it's comedy to see them try and flee once they realise they're done for.

---

Dual-prop dramiel will just escape if it's going to lose - because this caracal doesn't have enough real dps to kill it fast. That's not the case for thrasher/sabre - they can't control distance but will pop dual-prop dramiel pretty fast, most likely before dramiel notices that it's too late.

---

Originally by: Raimo

---

BTW, I too can take on the Wolf challenge

---

Originally by: James Tritanius

---

Your dramiel fit has dead-space prop mods and yet you don't allow faction items?

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

Originally by: James Tritanius

---

Your dramiel fit has dead-space prop mods and yet you don't allow faction items?

---

Do you know the prices on those modules compared to faction scram/web? Deadspace AB/mwd are like 10m a piece, its cheap stuff. Faction scram/web can range anywhere from 40m-100m each.

And this is the assault missile launcher caracal I'd try against a dramiel.

[Caracal, New Setup 1]
xxxxxxxxx


Heavy missile baits the dramiel into scram range, at which point scram and double web ruin it.

You can drop the large shield extender for a long range point to further bait them since it looks like you don't have a scram but thats riskier imo, not sure you got enough buffer, but you might.

---

Originally by: Raimo

---

OTOH

:CVA:

---

Originally by: Raimo

---

I'll spell it out:

[Caracal, Veras's Caracal]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Disruptor I,Optimal Range Disruption

Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Assault Missile Launcher II,Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II,Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II,Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II,Bloodclaw Fury Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Warrior II's

at least doesn't work


and BAWWW, Intigo

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

And td and ccc...

---

Originally by: Arrador

---

[Caracal, Speedtank this]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Target Painter II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x2

Cheap, and effective. Hardest part about this fit is, finding a frigate class pilot dumb enough to engage you. Faction and/or javelin will work. DO NOT use fury. If you meet another cruiser or BC, swap to furies.

---

Originally by: UMEE

---

if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=25651&view=losses

yes sure, dramiels are invincible.... (that also happens to be one of the best pvp'ers in eve)

---

Originally by: CCP Incognito

---

PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=25651&view=losses

yes sure, dramiels are invincible.... (that also happens to be one of the best pvp'ers in eve)

---

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=25651&view=losses

yes sure, dramiels are invincible.... (that also happens to be one of the best pvp'ers in eve)

---

note that the smallest number of ships used to kill him was 2, and the 2 ships were vagabonds. which kinda goes against the point of this thread.

---

Originally by: UMEE

---

if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

people say they couldn't be killed, that was the quickest proof i could think of. in fact dramiel lossmails are littering killboards lately. (and if you look, you will see he hardly ever looses ships to single pilots)

if people are incapable of soloing them or to figure out what to use that's hardly the ship being OP ;) (and can be done very cheaply)

---

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

people say they couldn't be killed, that was the quickest proof i could think of. in fact dramiel lossmails are littering killboards lately. (and if you look, you will see he hardly ever looses ships to single pilots)

if people are incapable of soloing them or to figure out what to use that's hardly the ship being OP ;) (and can be done very cheaply)

---

Anything can be killed, but it is like the nano-discussion or the AB-boost AF discussion; "Bring friends", "Use a Curse/Rapier/Hugginn", "Use ECM" etc., once that becomes the standard replies something is off.

Reason why I at least call it OP/FoTM is that you need very specific fits or excessive fire-/manpower to kill them. Once that happens something is off.
The only thing that keeps the Dramiel from being a critical issue is t1 resists and "only" moderate-to-high damage potential .. doesn't mean it shouldn't be toned down a tad

---

Originally by: UMEE

---

if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.

---

Originally by: Sig Sour

---

Thrasher

With arty, the fight will last 9.639 seconds. You can 2 shot them.

---

Originally by: adriaans

---

you don't need anything above 30 mill to kill it...

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

Only thing I could come up with was a aml caracal using 1 heavy missile launcher to bait them into double web/scram range. Bc's, it can just disengage easy if things turn sour.

---

Originally by: Bungo Brown

---

The best part about that killboard link is that the only frigate-sized ship involved in those kills was another Dramiel.

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

But even double webbed dramiel is faster than scrambled cruiser.

---

Originally by: baltec1

---

A sentinel stops it in its tracks.

---

Originally by: The AEther

---

An Arbitrator with 10mn ab...

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: The AEther

---

An Arbitrator with 10mn ab...

---

You dont think that seriously...

---

Originally by: Trader20

---

[Ishkur]

---

Originally by: Sig Sour

---

Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

---

Originally by: The AEther

---

It's been already done in game. I'd post a link to km but I didn't bother to save it.

---

Originally by: MukkBarovian

---

...

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: Sig Sour

---

Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

---

Another sign you are total noob and have no idea what are you talking about.

---

Originally by: CCP Incognito

---

PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

---

Originally by: Terianna Eri

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: Sig Sour

---

Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

---

Another sign you are total noob and have no idea what are you talking about.

---

I'm pretty sure that that was sarcasm brah

---

Originally by: Sig Sour

---

Holy cow you are totally correct! A dramiel would smoke a thrasher, Id be scared of every dramiel in my thrasher. Every dramiel should not hesitate to attack a thrasher.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

Anyone know of a counter to a dramiel in frigate size class? I can't think of anything that can beat it or any tactics.

It's faster than interceptors, dual props usually for versatility, runs a passive shield buffer, does damage/tanks like an AF, even has drones.

Sure it costs 70m, but I can't think of anything that can beat it in its weight class. I even thought of the daredevil with its 90% web, but the thing is the dramiel will pack a neut. capping you out in 50 seconds, making you dead in the water. Maybe a slicer and exploit its range/tank but no it still has far lower dps, and will get ****d.

Dramiel seems to be able to disengage at will if situation turns dire, hell it can run around in scram range also since it has a afterburner that moves at freaking 2km/s. Even neuts don't seem to be very good wards either, since the guns dont need cap.

[Dramiel, New Setup 3]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Gyrostabilizer II

Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Gistii B-Type 1MN Afterburner
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Core Defence Field Extender II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x3

Anyone got any ideas?

Only thing I could come up with was a aml caracal using 1 heavy missile launcher to bait them into double web/scram range. Bc's, it can just disengage easy if things turn sour.

---

Originally by: Platoon Sergeant

---

sigh @ arty thrasher pilots.

9 seconds is a ****ing ETERNITY.

You will get one salvo off, probably taking him into armour. 2-3 seconds later the dramiel will be orbiting you at 1038957190m/s and then you will die in pretty short order.

This is of course assuming the dramiel pilot doesn't just bail instantly..

Arty thrasher works great against normal frigates, but you simply can't keep range on a dramiel long enough to get the 2nd salvo off.

Honestly, the best counter to a dramiel is to give it to a bad player.

That said, you could probably out-gay the dramiel by fitting an anti-dramiel kitsune in the same way people make anti-rifter Griffins. Hard to say if you'd do enough DPS though. Additionally, you're just playing the dice.

---

Originally by: Proxyyyy

---

Cruor, daredevil, thrasher, jaguar, and ishkur! Provided it catches u or you get a jump on it which ever, thoughs ships can kill the dram. The thrasher can do it if the dude doesnt run which they have from me atleast. Also the jag/ab with a ab can take it down fo sho! Provided you can catch it or it catches u. The iskur can also take it down provided it doesnt try to run away.

Ive seen arty drams, duel prop drams, ab drams, and mwd drams. Im sure you can take out anyone of these at some point or another. The dram cant hold down a cruor or daredevil and if it gets close it dies so i would say them! Maybe even the worm can do it with a combination of extreme tank and good dps.

But the dram is mEH and pretty last year tbh! Must be a new for the moment by now...

Also i would submit the little known armor tanked ab/dram which is hella tanky compared to the shield version with around the same dps. Got the fit from a good sir in back to yarr, but cant be bothered to find it. Its intresting how affective it is to...

---

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

---

AC Thrasher won't kill Dramiel's unless a mistake is made. Arty fit has no chance in hell unless it one volleys it (ie. not possible), remember that it is three times as fast as the MWD Thrasher and has similar EHP.
The AB Slicer is able to outrun a majority of AC Thrasher tracking so I doubt a Dramiel will have any problems doing the same .. an even match though, first mistake loses.

Been looking at the Daredevil vs. Dramiel kills linked earlier and it does seem to work decently enough .. caveat of course is that he fits (has to?) faction tackle and appears to have worse luck when Dramiel is bling-fitted as well.

Balancing note: Why exactly does it need to have drones?

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

But yea looking at the rail daredevil, it looks the most plausible, but look at the price needed to win. 120m hull + faction scram (40m) + faction web just in case (40m). Thats bull.

---

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

---

What you're saying is a bull****. You don't need faction stuff just to get longer hands, you need faction stuff to handle lack of CPU. Faction web and scram do not help much with that.

[Daredevil, Rail]

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
High Slot
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I
Rig Slot

302.5 DPS with standard dmg implants (5% for small hybrids and 3% to turrets)

---

Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

---

daredevil

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

And you could always drop the 150mm to 125mm's. Gains some tracking also.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

I guess if you want to know for sure ask the guy who flies rail daredevils aroud and see which is needed more, faction scram/web or faction magnetic field stabs. Cause what he flew was extremely pimped with faction scram/web and dual faction mag stabs. That thing was worth 120m for hull, 50m for scram, 50m for web, 100m for both federation navy mag stabs.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

That is a lot of money compared to dramiel 70m for 10m mwd, and 10m ab.

---

Originally by: Ammy Azimuth

---

The one thing I don't like is the fact the super expensive daredevil like you listed, has like no buffer. its 4.8k effhp. Great dps, but it looks super flimsy.

---

Originally by: D melanogaster

---

Best ship to kill a dramiel with is a revelation

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Op should add ishkur, jag and succubus /in stardard fits/ as frigs able to hold and kill dramiel. With slightly modified fitting id say harpy and hookbill would do it. Only dont forget you will need deadspace ab on these ships to counter dramiels gisti ab /and piloting error will cost you ship/.

Also 'standard' fits are ab+web fits, so you are losing alot of versatility losing mwd, dualprop, neuts etc.

---

Originally by: David Devant

---

Duel web hookbill would be cheap and effective. Don't try and engage away from station or gate ofc.

---

Originally by: David Devant

---

Because he'll kite you and you'll die.

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Only that dram cannot dictate range vs dualweb hookbill, and not even vs sinlge web when if its standard dualprop fit.
Now im thinking about web + td + crash, but im still not sure /and yes, it doesnt fit lol/.

---

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus

---

This. AB/scram/web AFs are faster than webbed dualprop Dramiels in scram range, and have more gank/tank, so should win. Again, though, a smart Dramiel pilot probably won't engage a Jag trundling towards him at AB speeds.

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

LOL @ the 1v1 frig situations in this 'nerf the Dramiel' thread.

A ship isn't overpowered when you compare it in 1v1 situations, because most pvp in eve isn't dueling 1v1s.

This is a stupid stupid thread...

---

Originally by: Artemis Rose

---

Both an Arty Thrasher and a A/C Thrasher would have a good chance in killing it.

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

LOL @ the 1v1 frig situations in this 'nerf the Dramiel' thread.

A ship isn't overpowered when you compare it in 1v1 situations, because most pvp in eve isn't dueling 1v1s.

This is a stupid stupid thread...

---

No idea where do you live, but there are still places where you can find good 1v1 in eve. ESPECIALLY in frigs.

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

Narrow scope - narrow argument.

---

Originally by: Darthewok

---

TL;DR
the existence of the new Dramiel has made frigs BORING by turning a rock paper scissors scenario to a one-horse race.
it should be nerfed to be one choice among many rather than THE choice and the rest only far inferior wannabes for the frig throne.

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

You failed to read my point which was, that its stupid to claim a ship is overpowered based on dueling 1v1 scenarios.

---

Originally by: Darthewok

---

There is absolutely no reason to fly any frigate but a Dramiel unless you cannot afford it.
And MANY people can easily afford Dramiels.
They are multiplying like rabbits everywhere.

---

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko

---

Wow stop whining

---

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko

---

Wow stop whining, the answer was posted right at the start; Daredevils or Cruors toast Dramiels 1vs1. Just because you fail repeatedly at trying to kill them does not mean they are unkillable.

---

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko

---

Wow stop whining, the answer was posted right at the start; Daredevils or Cruors toast Dramiels 1vs1. Just because you fail repeatedly at trying to kill them does not mean they are unkillable.

---

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko

---

Wow stop whining, the answer was posted right at the start; Daredevils or Cruors toast Dramiels 1vs1. Just because you fail repeatedly at trying to kill them does not mean they are unkillable.

---

Originally by: Kimura Masahiko

---

Wow stop whining, the answer was posted right at the start; Daredevils or Cruors toast Dramiels 1vs1. Just because you fail repeatedly at trying to kill them does not mean they are unkillable.

---

Originally by: Proxyyyy

---

[Cruor, Bum RUSHA!]

---

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

---

1. It's dps is lower than most afs/faction frigates/taranis
2. It's tank is much weaker than any AF
3. It's speed is only on par with interceptors, not hugely above.

---

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

---

People are going on and on about how OP the dramiel is, but it isnt.

1. It's dps is lower than most afs/faction frigates/taranis
2. It's tank is much weaker than any AF
3. It's speed is only on par with interceptors, not hugely above.

The reason the dramiel is so good is because while it it not the best at anything, it can do everything, the sheer versatility of the ship is what makes it excellent. It excels in no field, it is terrible in no field, it's the jack of all trades.

---

Originally by: Glarion Garnier

---

I hope I come across one of those dramiels ..

---

Originally by: Wideen

---

A destroyer will not do (least not against the way I fit my dramiel) since I'll just orbit outside of his gunrange while slowly chewing through him with drones and guns.

Another dramiel or a daredevil are your best bets tbh, setup for close range pwnage

---

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

---

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

---

1. It's dps is lower than most afs/faction frigates/taranis
2. It's tank is much weaker than any AF
3. It's speed is only on par with interceptors, not hugely above.

---

1. 195dps, selectable damage type, perfect tracking, capless weapons, falloff up to 12k...all your high dps afs/frigs are blasterboats that cant hit to 10k reliably /ofc except daredevil, succubus, ishkur and maybe cruor/
2. 7k mse buffer /afs usually have 8k, so i wouldnt say much weaker/
3. faster and more agile than every inty /for example sader with 2x od is still slower than dram with no speed mod/, comparing to afs is pointless

So basically what are you saying here its bull****.

---

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

---

...

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

If you're faster than all other frigs then you don't have the damage mods or a damage control.

---

Originally by: Omarvelous

---

Worm is a super durable frig tackler.

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

I've taken down two Dramiels on seperate occasions in different circumstances with my Cruor.

The fit isn't too far off from Proxyyyy's, but it's a tad unique and it flows well for a frigate.

[Cruor, Siigari-Style]
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
'Bastion' 400mm Reinforced Steel Plates I

1MN Digital Booster Rockets
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
True Sansha Stasis Webifier

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Dark Blood Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Dark Blood Multifrequency S
'Caltrop' Small Energy Neutralizer I
'Caltrop' Small Energy Neutralizer I

Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II

Runs with implants:

Slave Alpha
Slave Beta
Slave Gamma
Slave Delta
Slave Epsilon
Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Squire' PG8
Ogdin's Eye Coordination Enhancer
Pashan's Turret Customization Mindlink
Akemon's Modified 'Noble' ZET5000

Has over 13k EHP, goes about 2.7km/s in overload and if you aren't catching a Dramiel you are doing something wrong. That web reaches 19.5km and you should absolutely murder any Dramiel pilot that realistically wants to be in range to kill you.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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@ worm comment - 14k buffer is 2x the tank of dram - with gang bonuses its pretty nice - even if slow (still faster than cruisers with mwd). I came off as saying it was good at catching frigs - I meant it was a good tackler in that it catches bigger ships and survives long enough for your gang to finish the job.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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[Cruor, gtc-Style]

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I've taken down two Dramiels on seperate occasions in different circumstances with my Cruor.

The fit isn't too far off from Proxyyyy's, but it's a tad unique and it flows well for a frigate.

[Cruor, Siigari-Style]

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Originally by: CCP Incognito

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PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

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Quote:

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Auto thrasher, is somewhat questionable, and while yes it is a frigate mowing machine, I don't see anyway that it will be able to keep the dramiel in range. Dramiel is still faster and the auto thrasher would take some time to kill the dramiel. At least 20-30 seconds based on what I calculated. Good dramiel imo would orbit at like 15km and see if the thrasher can hit it, if it can't or does very little its prolly auto fit, and you should not engage, if it can hit its prolly artie and you can destroy it.

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Quote:

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Auto thrasher, is somewhat questionable, and while yes it is a frigate mowing machine, I don't see anyway that it will be able to keep the dramiel in range. Dramiel is still faster and the auto thrasher would take some time to kill the dramiel. At least 20-30 seconds based on what I calculated. Good dramiel imo would orbit at like 15km and see if the thrasher can hit it, if it can't or does very little its prolly auto fit, and you should not engage, if it can hit its prolly artie and you can destroy it.

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Originally by: Terianna Eri

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I've taken down two Dramiels on seperate occasions in different circumstances with my Cruor.

The fit isn't too far off from Proxyyyy's, but it's a tad unique and it flows well for a frigate.

[Cruor, Siigari-Style]

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Couldn't you replace everything except the web with T2 or named and you'd still have the most important feature of the Cruor - really strong webbing - intact, and save enough isk to buy like 10 more cruors? Doesn't seem like most of the faction/storyline gear on that is really doing any good

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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@ worm comment - 14k buffer is 2x the tank of dram - with gang bonuses its pretty nice - even if slow (still faster than cruisers with mwd). I came off as saying it was good at catching frigs - I meant it was a good tackler in that it catches bigger ships and survives long enough for your gang to finish the job.

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Interceptors do this better, and Dramiel does this better than interceptors.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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It's just a tight fit is all. Also to the people who have accused me of that fit not being very good, I want to hear your ideas on a fit.

You can't accuse that of being a bad fit if you can't think up anything better. It works and I like it.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Interceptors do this better, and Dramiel does this better than interceptors.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Interceptors do this better, and Dramiel does this better than interceptors.

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Interceptors are faster but die faster.

Dramiel is probably the best inty killer in game (doesn't make it op for a frig).

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Originally by: scoutyman

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Could anyone clarify how a sentinel goes about killing a dramiel?
I honestly dont know much about the sentinel but at first glance, even when capped out, the dramiel keeps it's dps (auto's + drones ) and tank (MSE).

A fit would also be nice =p

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Originally by: CCP Incognito

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PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

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Originally by: scoutyman

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Could anyone clarify how a sentinel goes about killing a dramiel?
I honestly dont know much about the sentinel but at first glance, even when capped out, the dramiel keeps it's dps (auto's + drones ) and tank (MSE).

A fit would also be nice =p

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Originally by: Terianna Eri

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I've taken down two Dramiels on seperate occasions in different circumstances with my Cruor.

The fit isn't too far off from Proxyyyy's, but it's a tad unique and it flows well for a frigate.

[Cruor, Siigari-Style]

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Couldn't you replace everything except the web with T2 or named and you'd still have the most important feature of the Cruor - really strong webbing - intact, and save enough isk to buy like 10 more cruors? Doesn't seem like most of the faction/storyline gear on that is really doing any good

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Perhaps, however this fit optimizes the armor and gives it as much gank/tank as possible. You get two neuts instead of only one and you still go about 3km/s.

It's just a tight fit is all. Also to the people who have accused me of that fit not being very good, I want to hear your ideas on a fit.

You can't accuse that of being a bad fit if you can't think up anything better. It works and I like it.

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Originally by: z0de

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Dramiel is a vagabond of old scaled down to frig size. cpp nerfed the old vaga and will most likely nerf the new baby vaga.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I've taken down two Dramiels on seperate occasions in different circumstances with my Cruor.

The fit isn't too far off from Proxyyyy's, but it's a tad unique and it flows well for a frigate.

[Cruor, Siigari-Style]

'Caltrop' Small Energy Neutralizer I
'Caltrop' Small Energy Neutralizer I


Runs with implants:

Slave Alpha
Slave Beta
Slave Gamma
Slave Delta
Slave Epsilon
Hardwiring - Inherent Implants 'Squire' PG8
Ogdin's Eye Coordination Enhancer
Pashan's Turret Customization Mindlink
Akemon's Modified 'Noble' ZET5000

Has over 13k EHP, goes about 2.7km/s in overload and if you aren't catching a Dramiel you are doing something wrong. That web reaches 19.5km and you should absolutely murder any Dramiel pilot that realistically wants to be in range to kill you.

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Originally by: Stil Harkonnen

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I wish i flew around where sigari flew so that when i killed him I could loot ONE of his modules and never have to worry about isk again

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Originally by: Aurora IV

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The only way a Dramiel can kill you:
-You don't have both Caldari Frigate and Signal Suppression to V
-Dramiel pilot has Jackal Implants
-A pilot that fits ECCM mods
-Dramiel pilot remembers to bring Warriors

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Originally by: Aurora IV

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C'mon guys, whats with the 100 mil isk counters. This one is so easy.

[Griffin, LOL Rifter Bait]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Phase Inverter II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S

Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
[empty rig slot]

5 Mil isk, overheat the ECM and you will have 100% jam strengh on a Dramiel. It will take a while to chew through the MSE, but you can heat an ECM mod for like 3 minutes, so plenty of time.

I used this to kill Rifters in Amamake a while back, same process, just jam and stay close and they will die eventually. Pulse the MWD to stay close, and an AB just won't cut it since, even webbed, a Dramiel is faster than you.

The only way a Dramiel can kill you:
-You don't have both Caldari Frigate and Signal Suppression to V
-Dramiel pilot has Jackal Implants
-A pilot that fits ECCM mods

Good hunting, should make for some LOL killmails.

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Originally by: Aurora IV

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C'mon guys, whats with the 100 mil isk counters. This one is so easy.

[Griffin, LOL Rifter Bait]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

1MN MicroWarpdrive I
ECM - Phase Inverter II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S

Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
[empty rig slot]

5 Mil isk, overheat the ECM and you will have 100% jam strengh on a Dramiel. It will take a while to chew through the MSE, but you can heat an ECM mod for like 3 minutes, so plenty of time.

I used this to kill Rifters in Amamake a while back, same process, just jam and stay close and they will die eventually. Pulse the MWD to stay close, and an AB just won't cut it since, even webbed, a Dramiel is faster than you.

The only way a Dramiel can kill you:
-You don't have both Caldari Frigate and Signal Suppression to V
-Dramiel pilot has Jackal Implants
-A pilot that fits ECCM mods

Good hunting, should make for some LOL killmails.

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Originally by: W0wbagger

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Haha see you found those Caltrops then. Quite rare those but very handy.

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Originally by: Darthewok

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scrambler and web useless vs dramiel as its too fast even with AB (and webbed!)
range kiting useless because dramiel is faster than you and has drones
ecm useless because dramiel has drones
neuting useless because dramiel weapons are capless
straightforward dps and tank useless because dramiel has either more dps and tank than you or can kite you with superior speed
get the picture yet why dramiel is OP?

to those theorycrafting without experience, go actually fly against a dramiel and you will realise your theories are worth $#@$@
not talking about daredevil and cruor, those i think would work, but still it leaves dramiel to totally crush the other 99% of frigs and do their jobs better, making them obsolete
daredevil and cruor can crush dramiel but not do a better job at intercepting than interceptors, so it doesn't make the other frigs obsolete

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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Webs and scrams slow down the dramiel and make it easier to hit, just like any other frigate. Its not immune to webs.
Range kiting works with laser or droneboats who have web/scram/ab because the dramiel has no web.
All a neuted dramiel can do is shoot, it can't run its scram, ab or mwd if its totally neuted down. Which nullifies its greatest attribute, which is the dual prop.
Ecm is far from useless, the drones only work if you dropped them before you were jammed.
Straightfoward dps and tank work, because the dramiels dps and tank is average, but its just that it can disengage quite easily.
Stop your useless whining and go kill somebody. Just cause you suck doesnt mean a ship is overpowered.

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Originally by: Al Anders

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[Crusader, Hard to get]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Domination Warp Disruptor

Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S

Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Let's say. That one will be always out of range and overspeed you. Once your drones are killed - you're pinned and waiting. If it'll use some spice like a heatsinks instead of nanos - it'll kill you alone. And much cheaper
Yes' That is theorycraft.

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Originally by: Darthewok

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have you actually tried any of those things vs a Dramiel?
they sound good in theory only.

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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State of denial

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Originally by: KismoAll

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I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.

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Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

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Originally by: Kismo

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I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.

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Errm, I kill AC/Arty Trasher's in Punisher/Slicers with minimal issues.
Dramiel's are faster, more agile, has more mids, has drones .. Trasher's are a mail waiting to happen for Dramiel's, but do keep trying I am sure the FoTM pilots appreciate the loot.

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Originally by: Kismo

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And just so you know all I can fly is minmattar only a couple mil sp though total noob dont worry

Haha even a sabre is cheaper

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Originally by: Kadesh Priestess

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Originally by: Kismo

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And just so you know all I can fly is minmattar only a couple mil sp though total noob dont worry

Haha even a sabre is cheaper

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Sabres and thrashers are imbalanced to their racial counterparts. But even taking this fact into account, they're not so popular... guess why?

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Originally by: Kismo

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The thrasher because everyone knows its a noobs ship and the sabre because it costs 50m isk. though i see lots of them in 00

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Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

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Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 01/02/2010 07:06:04

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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State of denial

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First some things you are obviously disregarding:
If you are able to web/scram it you are scrammed as well.
Dramiel travels 2k/s using a cheap as chips faction afterburner without any additional speed mods required.
Dramiel does anywhere from 110-150dps with guns
Dramiel has agility enough orbit at any and all ranges with zero dps decrease due to tracking bonus.

Only the ECM argument you made is valid, but then again the number of solo-Griffins around can be counted on one finger.

What this means:
You can not kite that which is faster than you.
You can not "neut down" that which requires minimal cap (you need 3 staggered small neuts to do what you suggest). One cycle and he is out of range.
You can not apply enough weapon dps for it to make a difference due to speed/agility.
You can not tank 100+ dps indefinitely unless you are tank focused, not that it matters since buffers are omni-present ..
Drone boats can not kill a Dramiel because a Dramiel does not engage .. he has full control due to speed/agility.

End result:
Hit a Dramiel with a neut and pray to you deity of choice that it is near/at the end of his scram cycle and make your escape.
Die.
Bring friends (preferably with ECM).
Fit your ship specifically to kill Dramiel's and die to anything else that looks at you funny.

Yea, Dramiels are fine

Originally by: KismoAll

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I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.

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Errm, I kill AC/Arty Trasher's in Punisher/Slicers with minimal issues.
Dramiel's are faster, more agile, has more mids, has drones .. Trasher's are a mail waiting to happen for Dramiel's, but do keep trying I am sure the FoTM pilots appreciate the loot.

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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And I've killed a dual prop dramiel with a plated claw

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Originally by: Darthewok

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Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 12:12:15

Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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And I've killed a dual prop dramiel with a plated claw

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your evidence that Dramiel is not OP is because you killed one in an AB plated claw??
the fact that you had to fly a ship so useless in every other way to kill a Dramiel shows the ridiculous lengths to which people have to go just to fight it.

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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A skilled pilot in a crusader, to name but one ship, can destroy a dramiel.

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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Fair point, but this also made me think of something else. Why are people complaining only about the dramiel, considering all we're talking about is 1v1 situations, it occurs to me that ships such as the sentinel, with pilots of equivalent skills, cannot lose to any other frigate in the game. It's as fast as an interceptor, can suck any frigate dry in two cycles at most from a full rack of neuts, can field a decent tank, and can disengage at will because unless the opponent is able to get in close range (Unlikely) and is running a nos (Fit specific circumstance), the opponent will have no cap to run their point or scram, and in the case of blaster or laserboats, their guns. So why all the bleating about the dramiel and not ships such as the sentinel? I'm not trying to draw attention away from the dramiel, I'm just wondering.

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Originally by: Darthewok

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in other words why would you ever fly any other frig ever again but a Dramiel?
the cost is too low to be a barrier to a very large percentage of PVPers.

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Originally by: Shiroi Okami

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...

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Originally by: Darthewok

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Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 16:58:54
Intigo speaks in too arrogant a tone in all his posts.
The truly self-secure don't have to put others down.

By the way, I have never seen an Intigo movie.
Make one since you think you are so awesome and let us judge whether you actually are.

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Originally by: Darthewok

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oh? and where did i say anything about thrashers?
they are destroyers by the way and out of topic.

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Originally by: Darthewok

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destroyer is one class up from frigate hello
i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel

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Originally by: Darthewok

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wow go spew that stuff in low-sec local not here if you are looking for a fight.
this is the wrong venue.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Sure, its a great ship maybe even too great but to claim it has no counters and you can't kill one and it flies everywhere without a scratch is pure bull****.

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Originally by: Lugalzagezi666

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Originally by: Sig Sour

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Thrasher

With arty, the fight will last 9.639 seconds. You can 2 shot them.

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Dream on noob...

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Originally by: Darthewok

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destroyer is one class up from frigate hello
i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel

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