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Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.05 21:31:00 - [331] Originally by: Ranger 1 Stop your belly aching and read the Dev Blog that specifically describes why Navy and Pirate faction ships were balanced (in relation to T1 and T2) the way that they were. You will find it quite enlightening. You mean the same blog which states that Worm is a-ok friog wheras we repedeately told CCP its sub-par to AFs and not even close to other pirate frigs? Also that blog didnt state how much better pirate frigs should be, just that they should be step forward. Even after losing some speed or midslot dramiel still will be OP compared to most AFs, just not that much OP.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.05 21:36:00 - [332] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Ranger 1 Stop your belly aching and read the Dev Blog that specifically describes why Navy and Pirate faction ships were balanced (in relation to T1 and T2) the way that they were. You will find it quite enlightening. You mean the same blog which states that Worm is a-ok friog wheras we repedeately told CCP its sub-par to AFs and not even close to other pirate frigs? Also that blog didnt state how much better pirate frigs should be, just that they should be step forward. Even after losing some speed or midslot dramiel still will be OP compared to most AFs, just not that much OP. Deva... AFs are complete crap to start with. Please don't balance pirate frigs against ships that have been known to suck for years. If you are concerned about AF balance, ask for an AF boost. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.05 21:44:00 - [333] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Ranger 1 Stop your belly aching and read the Dev Blog that specifically describes why Navy and Pirate faction ships were balanced (in relation to T1 and T2) the way that they were. You will find it quite enlightening. You mean the same blog which states that Worm is a-ok friog wheras we repedeately told CCP its sub-par to AFs and not even close to other pirate frigs? Also that blog didnt state how much better pirate frigs should be, just that they should be step forward. Even after losing some speed or midslot dramiel still will be OP compared to most AFs, just not that much OP. Yes Deva, that blog exactly. Which is why I specifically said: Quote: The only controversy that I see is that 1 or 2 of the faction frigate may need a minor tweak here and there to bring them in line with the Dramiel and Daredevil. As was pointed out in the post above, we all know that AF's have a boost coming. Why would they balance Pirate Faction frigs against the current AF's and then have to do it all over again after the AF boost. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Deva Blackfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.05 22:42:00 - [334] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/02/2010 22:43:31 Originally by: Liang Nuren Deva... AFs are complete crap to start with. Please don't balance pirate frigs against ships that have been known to suck for years. If you are concerned about AF balance, ask for an AF boost. -Liang Im glad you totally ignored 2nd line of what i wrote. Even excluding AFs: dramiel is too good. If you drop one of its midslots OR drop speed it will STILL be the best frig out there. Thats how good it is. As for AFs, sure i want boost. But not ****ed "lets give them all some random idiot-resistant bonus like web immunity, neut immunity or uber-AB speeds". Tho i already posted this in proper sub-forum. Quote:** As was pointed out in the post above, we all know that AF's have a boost coming. Why would they balance Pirate Faction frigs against the current AF's and then have to do it all over again after the AF boost. Maybe because CCP is known for doing changes which get obsolete with next patch/expansion?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.05 23:01:00 - [335] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/02/2010 22:43:31 Originally by: Liang Nuren Deva... AFs are complete crap to start with. Please don't balance pirate frigs against ships that have been known to suck for years. If you are concerned about AF balance, ask for an AF boost. -Liang Im glad you totally ignored 2nd line of what i wrote. Even excluding AFs: dramiel is too good. If you drop one of its midslots OR drop speed it will STILL be the best frig out there. Thats how good it is. As for AFs, sure i want boost. But not ****ed "lets give them all some random idiot-resistant bonus like web immunity, neut immunity or uber-AB speeds". Tho i already posted this in proper sub-forum. Quote:** As was pointed out in the post above, we all know that AF's have a boost coming. Why would they balance Pirate Faction frigs against the current AF's and then have to do it all over again after the AF boost. Maybe because CCP is known for doing changes which get obsolete with next patch/expansion? Very true, but lets not critisize them for thinking ahead this time. In my neck of the woods we are starting to see Dramiel gangs flitting about. To be perfectly honest they are no more difficult to deal with that standard ceptor gangs, and loot is much more lucurative. I have a feeling somebody has been listening to the opinions in this thread, decided to take advantage of the ships "superiority", and is now realizing the error of their ways. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.05 23:22:00 - [336] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im glad you totally ignored 2nd line of what i wrote. I didn't ignore it at all - it was actually what prompted the post. You are talking about the Dramiel being OP next to current AFs... well no ** sherlock the current AFs are largely complete *. Again: boost AFs before complaining about Dramiel/AF balance issues. As to whether the Dramiel is "too good" ... probably a tiny* bit. I don't see it obsoleting combat inties and even giving AFs a run for their money as a bad thing at all. What I find bad is that it outclasses the other pirate frigs so well. IMO, a Dramiel nerf is inevitable - I am just hoping that they fix AFs before nerfing it so that we have a solid baseline for rebalancing it. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2010.02.06 02:25:00 - [337] What makes the Dramiel so good is the combination of speed, range, ehp. No other pirate frig out there has this combination. Many of the faction/pirate ones have 2 of them, but none have all of them. Tbh, i'm kinda glad the Dramiel was introduced. It just showed to everyone how **ing ****ed that ab bonus for af's was. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 03:49:00 - [338] Dramiel CROWD OUT AND REPLACE virtually all other frigs. Turning a 50+ frig game into a 1 frig 49 inferiors game. That is why it should be nerfed.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 03:54:00 - [339] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 03:54:49 Originally by: Darthewok Dramiel CROWD OUT AND REPLACE virtually all other frigs. Turning a 50+ frig game into a 1 frig 49 inferiors game. That is why it should be nerfed. The Dramiel is on the same level as the other pirate frigates. Of course there's always one that gets the short stick and is considered the worst (Worm), just as there's a worst AF (Hawk) and a worst Interceptor (Raptor). Pirate Frigates are meant to be superior to the other frigate classes, as has been already pointed out several times. What you're experiencing is intended game balance.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 03:57:00 - [340] Originally by: Kirzath The Dramiel is on the same level as the other pirate frigates. who are you kidding, mr flies only dramiels? Originally by: Kirzath Pirate Frigates are meant to be superior to the other frigate classes, as has been already pointed out several times. What you're experiencing is intended game balance. superior sure but not this much superior
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:01:00 - [341] Originally by: Darthewok who are you kidding, mr flies only dramiels? I don't only fly Dramiels. Originally by: Darthewok superior sure but not this much superior You want to counter Dramiels? Fly a pirate frigate of your own.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:10:00 - [342] Edited by: Darthewok on 06/02/2010 04:15:54 Originally by: Kirzath Originally by: Darthewok who are you kidding, mr flies only dramiels? I don't only fly Dramiels. You want to counter Dramiels? Fly a pirate frigate of your own. no you mean fly DRAMIEL of my own. Kirzath, flies no other pirate frig but Dramiel, since Dramiel came out 95% of kills in frig in Dramiel. last time flown previously most flown ship taranis was 24th Dec your own record is a fine argument of how Dramiel is CROWDING OUT the use of other frigs. it is pretty clear how after new Dramiel came out, you like a lot of frig pilots, tossed out the use of other frigs and replaced them with Dramiel.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:20:00 - [343] Originally by: Darthewok Kirzath, flies no other pirate frig but Dramiel, since Dramiel came out 95% of kills in frig in Dramiel. last time flown previously most flown ship taranis was 24th Dec your own record is a fine argument of how Dramiel is CROWDING OUT the use of other frigs. it is pretty clear how after new Dramiel came out, you like a lot of frig pilots, tossed out the use of other frigs and replaced them with Dramiel. If you had looked at our actual active killboard that I linked rather than the one we abandoned a long time ago in order to pull statistics out of your ass, you'd see that my use of frigates is still widely varied. As for flying a Dramiel of your own, please do. There's a saying, "fight fire with fire"?
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:38:00 - [344] Originally by: Kirzath my use of frigates is still widely varied. your last 10 kills since you are concerned i am not looking at latest info. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 i am impressed by the wide variety of frigates used by yourself and by your corpmates. wow! so many non-dramiel frigates! astounding. like i said, EXHIBIT A. Originally by: Kirzath As for flying a Dramiel of your own, please do. There's a saying, "fight fire with fire"? once again you prove 50 frigates have been replaced with 1 winner
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:45:00 - [345] Originally by: Darthewok your last 10 kills since you are concerned i am not looking at latest info. snip Excellent, you picked out all of my kills from a single roam where I happened to have been flying a Dramiel. Originally by: Darthewok i am impressed by the wide variety of frigates used by yourself and by your corpmates. wow! so many non-dramiel frigates! astounding. like i said, EXHIBIT A. Dramiels offer excellent performance, given their elevated price. We can afford them, so why wouldn't we fly them? Originally by: Darthewok once again you prove 50 frigates have been replaced with 1 winner **** GUYS, the Vindicator totally outclasses every other battleship in the game! Vindicator can beat any other BS 1v1. 20 battleships replaced with 1 winner, Vindi must be nerfed c/d?
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.06 04:58:00 - [346] Originally by: Kirzath ** GUYS, the Vindicator totally outclasses every other battleship in the game! Vindicator can beat any other BS 1v1. 20 battleships replaced with 1 winner, Vindi must be nerfed c/d? I'm training Minmatar BS on Liang for the Vindi.... LEAVE MY VINDI ALONE YOU JACKASS! -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:01:00 - [347] if you want to use genos killboard as example of use of variety of frigs, lol!!!! vindi does not replace other bs as it is so expensive only a very tiny percentage of eve players can afford one. dramiel does not have that barrier and therefore is replacing other frigs.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:05:00 - [348] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 05:05:59 Originally by: Darthewok vindi does not replace other bs as it is so expensive only a very tiny percentage of eve players can afford one. dramiel does not have that barrier and therefore is replacing other frigs. Yes it does. (Not 100% sure on the price of the Vindi, throwing it out there at 2B) Vindi to average T1 BS price ratio: 1:20 Vindi to average T2 BS price ratio: 1:2 Dramiel to average T1 frig price ratio: 1:200 Dramiel to average T2 frig price ratio: 1:4 In fact, the Frigate -> Dramiel barrier is much more prominent than the BS -> Vindi barrier.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:11:00 - [349] ABSOLUTE COST not RELATIVE COST. % of players that can afford Vindi = A % of players that can afford Dramiel = B B >>>>>>>>> A
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:14:00 - [350] Originally by: Darthewok ABSOLUTE COST not RELATIVE COST. % of players that can afford Vindi = A % of players that can afford Dramiel = B B >>>>>>>>> A Absolute cost doesn't matter in this case since the Dramiel is only "problematic" in frig vs. frig fights. You're using the argument that the Vindi should be better than other battleships because it's more expensive. Shouldn't that mean that the Dramiel should be better than other frigates because it's more expensive as well?
Shadowy Assistant	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:17:00 - [351] Edited by: Shadowy Assistant on 06/02/2010 05:17:35 Page 13 sniper. edit: fail, when did they upgrade the amount of posts per page to 30?
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:27:00 - [352] Edited by: Darthewok on 06/02/2010 05:30:32 all the while you are trying to convince people how you think dramiel is fairly balanced vs other frigs, you and virtually all your corp mates fly dramiels 90% of the time since new dramiel came out. in came new dramiel, out went all the other frigs. if all this price/ capability etc. balance you claim to believe is true, you would be flying dramiels a much lower percentage of the time. instead of such a ridiculously high percentage. your actions speak much louder than all this logic you are trying to twist. you can say all sorts of things, but your corp killboard is EXHIBIT A you don't truly believe what you are saying about frig balance but merely trying to save your fave ship.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:31:00 - [353] Edited by: Kirzath on 06/02/2010 05:34:35 All that means is that I (and the rest of Genos) have a suitable income to accommodate flying Dramiels so often. Also, it helps that the Dramiel is rather survivable and doesn't need replacing very often. If the Dramiel were any more expensive, why would anyone fly it over a similarly priced ship of a higher class? A Vagabond possesses similar anti-frigate capabilities and survivability at an increased price, while also offering the possibility of engaging much larger targets. If you had the ISK to afford flying fancy faction/T2 battleships with improved performance in PVP over the standard T1 variants, wouldn't you favor the Faction/T2 BSes?
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:34:00 - [354] Originally by: Kirzath All that means is that I (and the rest of Genos) have a suitable income to accommodate flying Dramiels so often. Also, it helps that the Dramiel is rather survivable and doesn't need replacing very often. If the Dramiel were any more expensive, why would anyone fly it over a similarly priced ship of a higher class? A Vagabond possesses similar anti-frigate capabilities and survivability at an increased price, while also offering the possibility of engaging much larger targets. haha on and on you will twist the logic. just look genos killboard folks. see the future pattern of frig usage if dramiel is not balanced vs other frigs. cheers.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:37:00 - [355] I'm not twisting any logic, here. The Dramiel is more expensive than any other frigate, so of course it should be one of the best in its class. You've yet to actually bring up an infallible argument as to why the Dramiel is overpowered.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:42:00 - [356] Originally by: Kirzath I'm not twisting any logic, here. The Dramiel is more expensive than any other frigate, so of course it should be one of the best in its class. You've yet to actually bring up an infallible argument as to why the Dramiel is overpowered. you would be far more credible if you actually used any other pirate frigate. EVER. one of the best in its class lol. looks like even you don't even believe your rationalization.
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:45:00 - [357] I call it "one" of the best because the Dramiel is directly countered by the Cruor and the Daredevil. Both of the latter are good at their own roles, but the Dramiel is the most popularily used frigate by Genos because it excels at what we do best: guerrilla warfare.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.02.06 05:50:00 - [358] Originally by: Kirzath The Dramiel is more expensive than any other frigate, so of course it should be one of the best in its class. ITT we have never heard of the concept of diminishing returns, nor have we considered its relevance to game balance.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:04:00 - [359] Originally by: Ranger 1 Yes Deva, that blog exactly. Which is why I specifically said: Quote: The only controversy that I see is that 1 or 2 of the faction frigate may need a minor tweak here and there to bring them in line with the Dramiel and Daredevil. Again a defender of the OP hull du jour doing his best to avoid the ugly truth. Already did it once but happy to quote it again Originally by: DevBlog705 Pirate ships have focused, niche role they excel to. Due to their high acquisition cost and rarity, it was decided they should either be on par with Tech 2 ships of the same class or even slightly above them. I highlighted the word that all the defenders seem all too eager to ignore. Dramiel is FAR better than ALL T2 hulls .. interceptors and AFs alike, not just some .. it's current "focus" is apparently everything. To further use the blog as a guide: Dramiel should be considerably worse than the Daredevil since the LP needed for it is significantly easier to obtain (evidenced by the unlimited supply of one and not the other). Originally by: Kirzath You want to counter Dramiels? Fly a pirate frigate of your own. This one line is a mirror image of the nano-age defence, "If you can't counter Nano's, fly Nano's". Just like the original nano-proponents, he happily skips over the part that even by using the same ship type as counter you will generally need specific fits to do it. No further responses to anything from that gentlemen, his stance has been abundantly clear, his only concern is for the iWin and not actual game balance. The only counter to current Dramiel's within its weight class is to fly a Dramiel (unless specifically fitting to catch them). Pilot with the best understanding of tracking mechanics and situational awareness wins. That may be fun, but it has nothing to with balance. PS: Vindicator is being used as a test-bed for the Devs to see how much blaster damage they can get away with without breaking everything, they are fishing for a blaster fix .. that is my take on it anyway .
Kirzath Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:14:00 - [360] Heavens forbid that you can't kill a 80M frigate without at least investing 80M yourself in order to destroy it.

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