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Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:09:00 - [211] Originally by: Kismo Sure, its a great ship maybe even too great but to claim it has no counters and you can't kill one and it flies everywhere without a scratch is pure bull****. /Thread ____________________________________________________________
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:13:00 - [212] by your own logic since you don't fly a dramiel you don't have the merit to comment!
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:17:00 - [213] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Sig Sour Thrasher With arty, the fight will last 9.639 seconds. You can 2 shot them. Dream on noob... Originally by: Darthewok destroyer is one class up from frigate hello i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:18:00 - [214] Originally by: Sig Sour Edited by: Sig Sour on 01/02/2010 19:17:28 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Sig Sour Thrasher With arty, the fight will last 9.639 seconds. You can 2 shot them. Dream on noob... Originally by: Darthewok destroyer is one class up from frigate hello i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel foot in mouth eh? excuse me i am not lugalzagezi666!! LOL
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:19:00 - [215] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 01/02/2010 19:21:09 Originally by: Raimo Originally by: Kismo Sure, its a great ship maybe even too great but to claim it has no counters and you can't kill one and it flies everywhere without a scratch is pure bull**. Unless the dramiel pilot isnt a complete **** ofc. /Thread Fixed. I've killed quite a few dramiels by now, but every single kill was due to either severe pilot error, ridiculous failfit or both. It clearly needs to be rebalanced, unless we want to rebalance 3 entire shipclasses just to keep one overpowered ship the way it is.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:20:00 - [216] There's a difference between us. You claim that the Dramiel has no counters, while I say that it does. I fly the Thrasher and Sabre and I am confident enough to put my ships on the line to defend my point of view. You however just keep making wild claims that fly in the face of all experience, and when called out on it you try everything possible to say that you won't fight. Come on - from everything you've said you should be able to kill anything I can throw on the field. According to you the Dramiel kills everything and flies away without a scratch. Come on, I challenge you, Darthewok, to prove it to me. Fly your Dramiel on over here and kill me.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:22:00 - [217] Originally by: Darthewok excuse me i am not lugalzagezi666!! LOL Sorry I do not understand that, can you say it in English please?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:24:00 - [218] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 01/02/2010 19:26:38 Originally by: Kismo There's a difference between us. You claim that the Dramiel has no counters, while I say that it does. I fly the Thrasher and Sabre and I am confident enough to put my ships on the line to defend my point of view. You see, the problem here is you have no way to get them into engagement range, so you cannot kill it. All it takes the Dramiel pilot on the other hand is a quick "look at" your ship to tell if he can destroy it, otherwise he wont bother. A counter is only a counter if it can actually do something against the targets will, you will not find any ship smaller than a recon that can effectively do something to the Dramiel against his will. Whats more, since we seem to be discussing specifically counter-fit ships by now, it is trivial to fit out a dramiel to absolutely wipe the floor with a sabre, without even taking a scratch.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:30:00 - [219] Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 19:30:53 Originally by: Omara Otawan You see, the problem here is you have no way to get them into engagement range, so you cannot kill it. All it takes the Dramiel pilot on the other hand is a quick "look at" your ship to tell if he can destroy it, otherwise he wont bother. A counter is only a counter if it can actually do something against the targets will, you will not find any ship smaller than a recon that can effectively do something to the Dramiel against his will. Whats more, since we seem to be discussing specifically counter-fit ships by now, it is trivial to fit out a dramiel to absolutely wipe the floor with a sabre, without even taking a scratch. So basically what you're saying is that a Dramiel sees a destroyer on the field and just warps away and doesn't take part in the fight. Yes, that does in fact sound like a counter. And I am not at all talking about fitting my ship to kill Dramiels, this is just the standard fits I am talking about. But you are welcome to try your Dramiel vs my Sabre. :) Just remember to bring deadspace loot for me I mean fit.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:31:00 - [220] Originally by: Omara Otawan You see, the problem here is you have no way to get them into engagement range, so you cannot kill it. All it takes the Dramiel pilot on the other hand is a quick "look at" your ship to tell if he can destroy it, otherwise he wont bother. Meet the Interceptor

Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:36:00 - [221] Originally by: Kismo Come on - from everything you've said you should be able to kill anything I can throw on the field. i didn't say this Originally by: Kismo to you the Dramiel kills everything and flies away without a scratch. i said frigates, thrasher is not a frigate you exaggerate what i say. it is called "the straw man fallacy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man 1. Person A has position X. 2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. 3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed. good try.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:37:00 - [222] Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 19:38:45 Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 19:38:10 Originally by: Darthewok EVERYONE tries to kill them - inties, AFs, destroyers, frig blobs, even rapiers using neuts, scrambers, webs, every fit you can imagine, but nothing really works. That seems pretty damming Darthewok. Hell since even Rapiers can't catch a Dramiel maybe you'd like to try your Dramiel against my Rapier? You aren't just talking out your ass are you? Come on - Your Dramiel vs my Thrasher, Sabre, or Rapier. You say it can't be killed and doesn't have counters... PROVE IT TO ME DARTHEWOK
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:40:00 - [223] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 01/02/2010 19:42:00 Originally by: Kismo So basically what you're saying is that a Dramiel sees a destroyer on the field and just warps away and doesn't take part in the fight. Yes, that does in fact sound like a counter. No, what I'm saying is when he sees a destroyer on the grid he just stays out of his range, and continues to kill off every single frigate and interceptor that isnt hugging the destroyer. That is a failed counter, or no counter at all. Originally by: Sig Sour Meet the Interceptor Too bad interceptors cant... 1) catch up to him because he is faster 2) stay alive until the backup warped into range should they catch him due to pilot error
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:41:00 - [224] Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 18:59:27 EVERYONE tries to kill them - inties, AFs, destroyers, frig blobs, even rapiers using neuts, scrambers, webs, every fit you can imagine, but nothing really works. Wow. Look how incompetent you are. Maybe if you based your experience on people who aren't bad at PvP (ie. not RvB bads like yourself) your mileage may vary. ___________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:44:00 - [225] Originally by: Intigo Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 18:59:27 EVERYONE tries to kill them - inties, AFs, destroyers, frig blobs, even rapiers using neuts, scrambers, webs, every fit you can imagine, but nothing really works. Wow. Look how incompetent you are. Maybe if you based your experience on people who aren't bad at PvP (ie. not RvB bads like yourself) your mileage may vary. so you think Dramiel doesn't need to be nerfed?
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:50:00 - [226] Originally by: Darthewok so you think Dramiel doesn't need to be nerfed? What we are saying is that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The Dramiel is a great ship maybe even too great but to say it is without counter or that it can't be killed or all this other crap you are saying is pure bull****.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:54:00 - [227] Originally by: Darthewok so you think Dramiel doesn't need to be nerfed? People rarely ask for nerfs against the ships they fly a lot. Sorry had to do it, nothing personal.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:54:00 - [228] Why does everyone always yell to nerf the best ship in any class? Just give rails a bit of love so they can get in on the Dramiel killing.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:28:00 - [229] Originally by: Darthewok excuse me i am not lugalzagezi666 Confirming that. And to the guy that thinks arty trasher can kill properly fitted and piloted dram : .
Onin Ra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:30:00 - [230] Originally by: Sig Sour Why does everyone always yell to nerf the best ship in any class? Just give rails a bit of love so they can get in on the Dramiel killing. Maybe because its not the best ship in its class, but ship in all 4 classes? Better than inty, better than af, better than other pirate frigs, better than t1 frig. +its stupid, to nerf all nano ships and then give a ship that goes ridicilously fast without a single speed mods and implants. --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.

Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:32:00 - [231] Originally by: Onin Ra Maybe because its not the best ship in its class, but ship in all 4 classes? Fair enough.
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:36:00 - [232] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Darthewok excuse me i am not lugalzagezi666 Confirming that. And to the guy that thinks arty trasher can kill properly fitted and piloted dram : . Well then, do YOU have a deadspace fit Dramiel to kill me with? Or are you another one of these PVP posers that are making up impossible stories of how the Dramiel can kill a Thrasher/Sabre/Rapier/Whatever all without a scratch? Come on, come loot my wreck in your deadspace fit Dramiel.
Darthewok Perkone	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:51:00 - [233] Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 20:55:05 Originally by: Kismo Don't forget the deadspace and faction loot I mean fit on your Dramiel Freudian slip... Originally by: Kismo Well then, do YOU have a deadspace fit Dramiel to kill me with? Or are you another one of these PVP posers that are making up impossible stories of how the Dramiel can kill a Thrasher/Sabre/Rapier/Whatever all without a scratch? Come on, come loot my wreck in your deadspace fit Dramiel. ITS A TARP! Someone wants deadspace loot hehe.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.01 21:40:00 - [234] Originally by: Intigo Also, Kadesh - I demand you make a PvP movie. My laptop almost overheats and barely provides convenient fps at graphics settings i'm used to, so any video capturing thingy will melt it in few minutes :P Regarding dramiel vs thrasher/sabre - dramiel can kill sabre (and thrasher) but it will need perfect skills and some very special fitting. Active shield tank, more speed/agi modules (speed alone is not enough), some hp buffer (prefferably DC imo, even when using nanos), HG halo, strong x-instinct, little to no mods which increase your signature - then it will be able to tank both classical sabre fittings (dual MSE + 125mm or web + MSE + 200mm) at low orbit. Range-tanking is useless vs sabre, but can be used vs thrasher (some gay setup with good falloff and disruptor), although results shouln't be reliable anyway. Some guys use AB/MSE/SB dramiels, but i don't believe that good sabre won't be able to break this tank. Originally by: Kismo Come on, lets have a 3v3. You bring a Dramiel, I'll bring a Thrasher. We'll see if you accomplish anything useful on the field. You do have a Dramiel right? You aren't just talking out your ass are you Darthewok? Don't forget the deadspace and faction loot I mean fit on your Dramiel More participants of the fight - the less significance of signature tank. 1 inty can tear to shreds 1 zealot, 3 inties will be instapopped by 3 zealots. 3v3 is not like outdoor pvp where you can get into camp while roaming. Besides, it will just show that dramiel can be trapped by some destroyer-sized vessel; nobody argues that it can be killed by certain ships (i wonder why nobody mentioned frigate's nightmare - curse). The point is that it can win so many fights while being versatile and extremely fast. Oh, and by the way - "nano is back" itself is poor argument, nobody whined about RF firetail being so fast. ps Meanwhile, Jita offers nice bunch of dramiel BPCs for 67 mils each. Die, (combat) interceptors!
Kismo	Posted - 2010.02.01 21:57:00 - [235] Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 21:57:29 Originally by: Kadesh Priestess 3v3 is not like outdoor pvp where you can get into camp while roaming. You know that I respect you and your opinion very much, but you're dead wrong if you say that NvM where N and M are both more than 1 isn't normal every day PVP conditions for 95% of Eve's PVPers. 3v3 is a reasonable approximation of a small gang fight - though in reality it might be better off being 5v5 or so. This seems to be a confession from what I consider to be one of the best frig PVPers in the game that the Dramiel is Just Another Frigate in small gang PVP.
Kadesh Priestess Scalding Chill	Posted - 2010.02.01 23:28:00 - [236] Originally by: Kismo 3v3 is a reasonable approximation of a small gang fight - though in reality it might be better off being 5v5 or so. I do agree that it's one of the closest to outdoor pvp formats, but it's still an approximation which excludes roaming, encountering gatecamps, bigger gangs, single targets that try to avoid fight with you and several other aspects.
ThaDollaGenerale The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.02.01 23:36:00 - [237] Christ, please don't tell me people are *****ing about one fast ship? IS IT NANO NERF ALL OVER AGAIN?
Tae Ren	Posted - 2010.02.01 23:49:00 - [238] Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale Christ, please don't tell me people are *****ing about one fast ship? IS IT NANO NERF ALL OVER AGAIN? BUT, BUT ... I cant catch it in my plated Taranis! So its overpowered, right! Right?
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.02.01 23:53:00 - [239] Dramiel counter: fly better.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2010.02.02 03:39:00 - [240] This: Quote: I do not consider Thrashers as being able to "counter" Dramiels, as my definition (yours may vary) as catching and killing a Dramiel that does not want to be caught, which it cannot do as it cannot catch a Dramiel in the first place. Dramiels cannot be caught by what can kill them, and can kill anything that can catch them (frigs only usually). Is the crux of the issue/problem, because that kind of situation leads to: Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Dramiel counter: fly better. Sure: waiting for a screwup and taking advantage of it is perfectly viable, but, that doesn't imply any kind of balance. When the best and only proper counter is "fly better" (and Istvaan is 100% right on that), theres a problem.



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