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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 06:58:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 06:58:42
 Originally by: Darthewok
have you actually tried any of those things vs a Dramiel?
they sound good in theory only.
All I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.02.01 07:01:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 01/02/2010 07:06:04
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
State of denial
First some things you are obviously disregarding:
If you are able to web/scram it you are scrammed as well.
Dramiel travels 2k/s using a cheap as chips faction afterburner without any additional speed mods required.
Dramiel does anywhere from 110-150dps with guns
Dramiel has agility enough orbit at any and all ranges with zero dps decrease due to tracking bonus.
Only the ECM argument you made is valid, but then again the number of solo-Griffins around can be counted on one finger.
What this means:
You can not kite that which is faster than you.
You can not "neut down" that which requires minimal cap (you need 3 staggered small neuts to do what you suggest). One cycle and he is out of range.
You can not apply enough weapon dps for it to make a difference due to speed/agility.
You can not tank 100+ dps indefinitely unless you are tank focused, not that it matters since buffers are omni-present ..
Drone boats can not kill a Dramiel because a Dramiel does not engage .. he has full control due to speed/agility.
End result:
Hit a Dramiel with a neut and pray to you deity of choice that it is near/at the end of his scram cycle and make your escape.
Die.
Bring friends (preferably with ECM).
Fit your ship specifically to kill Dramiel's and die to anything else that looks at you funny.
Yea, Dramiels are fine 
Originally by: KismoAll
I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.
Errm, I kill AC/Arty Trasher's in Punisher/Slicers with minimal issues.
Dramiel's are faster, more agile, has more mids, has drones .. Trasher's are a mail waiting to happen for Dramiel's, but do keep trying I am sure the FoTM pilots appreciate the loot.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 07:09:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 07:13:11
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 07:09:35
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kismo
I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.
Errm, I kill AC/Arty Trasher's in Punisher/Slicers with minimal issues.
Dramiel's are faster, more agile, has more mids, has drones .. Trasher's are a mail waiting to happen for Dramiel's, but do keep trying I am sure the FoTM pilots appreciate the loot.
Oh Im not scared of any Dramiels... I welcome their complex loot drops in fact.
And just so you know all I can fly is minmattar only a couple mil sp though total noob dont worry
Haha even a sabre is cheaper
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.02.01 07:16:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Kismo
And just so you know all I can fly is minmattar only a couple mil sp though total noob dont worry
Haha even a sabre is cheaper
Sabres and thrashers are imbalanced to their racial counterparts. But even taking this fact into account, they're not so popular... guess why?
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 07:21:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 07:21:47
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 07:21:28
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Originally by: Kismo
And just so you know all I can fly is minmattar only a couple mil sp though total noob dont worry
Haha even a sabre is cheaper
Sabres and thrashers are imbalanced to their racial counterparts. But even taking this fact into account, they're not so popular... guess why?
The thrasher because everyone knows its a noobs ship and the sabre because it costs 50m isk. though i see lots of them in 00
Yeah thrasher is a noobs ship everyone yep all those dramiels can just come kill the noob in a thrasher whoops almost got that wrong
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.02.01 08:03:00 -
[186]
For anyone who was challenging me to a dual in a thrasher, Kismo will gladly step in for me. I trust that your Dramiel can **** his thrasher and you can think of me while you are doing so. I do not think Kismo will have any objections.
I will hold 100% responsibility for Kismo's lost thrashers to a Dramiel and will replace all of his lost thrashers to a Dramiel.
Dramiel pilots, make me go broke from killing Kismo's thrashers.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.02.01 09:56:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 01/02/2010 09:56:51
Originally by: Kismo
The thrasher because everyone knows its a noobs ship and the sabre because it costs 50m isk. though i see lots of them in 00
Thrasher is very powerful ship (capable of wiping dramiel in 1x1 imo), but lacks agility, speed and signature, so it's pretty popular in lowsecs among very skilled pilots. 'Battle' fittings of sabre are also awesome, but neither of them have such ability to break through camps and disengage in scram range - that's the reason why they're not as popular as dramiel.
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Shiroi Okami
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.01 11:03:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 01/02/2010 07:06:04
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
State of denial
First some things you are obviously disregarding:
If you are able to web/scram it you are scrammed as well.
Dramiel travels 2k/s using a cheap as chips faction afterburner without any additional speed mods required.
Dramiel does anywhere from 110-150dps with guns
Dramiel has agility enough orbit at any and all ranges with zero dps decrease due to tracking bonus.
Only the ECM argument you made is valid, but then again the number of solo-Griffins around can be counted on one finger.
What this means:
You can not kite that which is faster than you.
You can not "neut down" that which requires minimal cap (you need 3 staggered small neuts to do what you suggest). One cycle and he is out of range.
You can not apply enough weapon dps for it to make a difference due to speed/agility.
You can not tank 100+ dps indefinitely unless you are tank focused, not that it matters since buffers are omni-present ..
Drone boats can not kill a Dramiel because a Dramiel does not engage .. he has full control due to speed/agility.
End result:
Hit a Dramiel with a neut and pray to you deity of choice that it is near/at the end of his scram cycle and make your escape.
Die.
Bring friends (preferably with ECM).
Fit your ship specifically to kill Dramiel's and die to anything else that looks at you funny.
Yea, Dramiels are fine
Originally by: KismoAll
I know is that you shouted down the best and most reasonable response this thread has had. A Thrasher would WHAT THE **** OWN any Dramiel that didn't leave the field ASAP. And yes, if you drove it off you won. All your bull**** sounds like theory crafting to me.
Errm, I kill AC/Arty Trasher's in Punisher/Slicers with minimal issues.
Dramiel's are faster, more agile, has more mids, has drones .. Trasher's are a mail waiting to happen for Dramiel's, but do keep trying I am sure the FoTM pilots appreciate the loot.
if you'd read what I said, I mention AB/web/scram fits, which even when scrammed when you'd be faster than the dramiel, the rifter or ishkur, for example, can achieve this. And I've killed a dual prop dramiel with a plated claw, simply because I neuted his AB off (With one small neut), they arent hard to kill. And in response to that other guy who asked me to fight some dramiels to test my thery, I HAVE, this is talking from experience of being both on the recieving and dealing end of the tactics designed to destroy dramiels.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 12:12:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 12:12:15
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
And I've killed a dual prop dramiel with a plated claw
your evidence that Dramiel is not OP is because you killed one in an AB plated claw??
the fact that you had to fly a ship so useless in every other way to kill a Dramiel shows the ridiculous lengths to which people have to go just to fight it.
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Shiroi Okami
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.01 12:45:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Darthewok
Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 12:12:15
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
And I've killed a dual prop dramiel with a plated claw
your evidence that Dramiel is not OP is because you killed one in an AB plated claw??
the fact that you had to fly a ship so useless in every other way to kill a Dramiel shows the ridiculous lengths to which people have to go just to fight it.
It was my standard claw fit, MWD fit, with plate, scram, rep and neut. I did not fly it to kill the dramiel in question, I had been roaming for the better part of an hour in it, engaging all sorts of targets, and just happened to find a dramiel who wanted to engage me.
Your arguments are weak at worst, you continually trumpet that nothing only specific anti dramiel fits can defeat a dramiel, when many things can in fact do so. Just because the dramiel is FotM and is quite like a frigate sized vagabond (In my opinion), it doesn't make it automatically overpowered. A terrible pilot with a good fit is still a terrible pilot. A skilled pilot in a crusader, to name but one ship, can destroy a dramiel. At the end of the day the ship may be good, but in eve there is no "I win" button. All single combat in eve comes down to fitting, tactics, and pilot skill.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 13:04:00 -
[191]
we should assume equal pilot skill when comparing ships.
a good pilot in X ship killing a lousy pilot in Y ship does not mean Y ship is lousy.
the concern is good pilots in Dramiel can destroy good pilots in other ships too high a percentage of the time too easily,
not that Dramiel never ever loses.
not that lousy Dramiel pilots won't lose to good pilots in other ships.
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Shiroi Okami
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.01 13:17:00 -
[192]
Fair point, but this also made me think of something else. Why are people complaining only about the dramiel, considering all we're talking about is 1v1 situations, it occurs to me that ships such as the sentinel, with pilots of equivalent skills, cannot lose to any other frigate in the game. It's as fast as an interceptor, can suck any frigate dry in two cycles at most from a full rack of neuts, can field a decent tank, and can disengage at will because unless the opponent is able to get in close range (Unlikely) and is running a nos (Fit specific circumstance), the opponent will have no cap to run their point or scram, and in the case of blaster or laserboats, their guns. So why all the bleating about the dramiel and not ships such as the sentinel? I'm not trying to draw attention away from the dramiel, I'm just wondering.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 13:41:00 -
[193]
the reason is Sentinel, Daredevil, Cruor though good at 1v1 don't replace all the other frigs! Unlike the Dramiel.
the problem is you can fly ONLY the Dramiel and no other frigate EVER AGAIN because it is multi-functional as a great inty and a great AF, and can beat 90% other frigs 90% of the time.
in other words why would you ever fly any other frig ever again but a Dramiel?
the cost is too low to be a barrier to a very large percentage of PVPers.
the sky will end up with majority of good PVPers flying Dramiel BORING 1 SHIP TO RULE ALL rather than an interesting scissors rock paper variety of Taranis/Jaguar/Crusader etc. etc.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2010.02.01 14:01:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 01/02/2010 14:05:32
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
A skilled pilot in a crusader, to name but one ship, can destroy a dramiel.
Mind sharing fittings of both?
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
Fair point, but this also made me think of something else. Why are people complaining only about the dramiel, considering all we're talking about is 1v1 situations, it occurs to me that ships such as the sentinel, with pilots of equivalent skills, cannot lose to any other frigate in the game. It's as fast as an interceptor, can suck any frigate dry in two cycles at most from a full rack of neuts, can field a decent tank, and can disengage at will because unless the opponent is able to get in close range (Unlikely) and is running a nos (Fit specific circumstance), the opponent will have no cap to run their point or scram, and in the case of blaster or laserboats, their guns. So why all the bleating about the dramiel and not ships such as the sentinel? I'm not trying to draw attention away from the dramiel, I'm just wondering.
Because dramiel has similar 'bail' option and sentinel dies horribly in gatecamps? Because dramiel is even better in 1 vs many (when comparing in 1 vs 1) when compared to other ships?
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Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.02.01 14:29:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Darthewok
in other words why would you ever fly any other frig ever again but a Dramiel?
the cost is too low to be a barrier to a very large percentage of PVPers.
To get fights, for one. (Though where I mostly hang out atm that is not a problem.)
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:20:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Shiroi Okami
...
You killed some clueless noob that underestimated claw - and id say it was pretty fail fit, because standard dram fit has more ehp and more dps than claw.
Competent dram pilot would eat you from 9k with barrage with possibility to disengage in seconds.
And yes, sader can kill dram - snaked ab sader with faction scram engaging from 13k with scorch lol.
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Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:31:00 -
[197]
Darthewok posts way too much when you take into consideration how incompetent he is.
Also, Kadesh - I demand you make a PvP movie. I love watching your escapades on BC and you do some pretty ballsy stuff. Out of all the posters in the thread you're one of the few making sense as well - but then again, it is EVE-O afterall.
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HELLO! My name is Inigo Mont...oh f' it. |
Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 16:32:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 16:34:16
Intigo speaks in too arrogant a tone in all his posts.
The truly self-secure don't have to put others down.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:15:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Darthewok
Edited by: Darthewok on 01/02/2010 16:58:54
Intigo speaks in too arrogant a tone in all his posts.
The truly self-secure don't have to put others down.
By the way, I have never seen an Intigo movie.
Make one since you think you are so awesome and let us judge whether you actually are.
You are pretty much the entire driving force behind this thread and I saw that you laughed down the Thrasher killing a Dramiel and stuff can you please PVP my Thrasher in your Dramiel? I know that you wouldn't ever deny somethings ability to kill something else in such detail unless you'd flown the Dramiel extensively. Can you PVP my Thrasher? Make sure you fit deadspace loot like Gistii A-Type and Canyon MSE and K88 Vigor and IFFA and a True Sansha scrambler and Republic Fleet Gyros so that its as realistic as possible. Thansk I know Im a total noob just need you to PVP my thrasher because I am a noob
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:18:00 -
[200]
oh? and where did i say anything about thrashers?
they are destroyers by the way and out of topic.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:21:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 17:21:28
Originally by: Darthewok
oh? and where did i say anything about thrashers?
they are destroyers by the way and out of topic.
So basically you say that you are too chicken to fight a thrasher in a dramiel must not be such a powerful overpowered frigate then or you have never flown one and dont know its down sides as well as you claim which is it
remember only noobs fly thrashers i am a total noob you can kill me easy make sure to fit deadspace remember
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:25:00 -
[202]
destroyer is one class up from frigate hello
i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:28:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Kismo on 01/02/2010 17:34:31
Originally by: Darthewok
destroyer is one class up from frigate hello
i never said larger ships cannot kill dramiel
oh so u r say that dramiel has cheap counters like all other frigs rit? come on try kill my nooby thrasher in ur leet draemile i am dum and a noob and ur a pvp god and wud never talk out ur ass about how a draeiml cna kill even thrashers come on pvp my noob thrasher in ur deadspace fit drameil yu have 1 rit?
c i so dum i cant even type u can kill me EZ
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:55:00 -
[204]
wow go spew that stuff in low-sec local not here if you are looking for a fight.
this is the wrong venue.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:58:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Darthewok
wow go spew that stuff in low-sec local not here if you are looking for a fight.
this is the wrong venue.
Oh come on dude you're the one telling the whole world how every possible counter to the Dramiel Just Won't Work. Prove it to me. I've got a Thrasher, you've presumably got a pimped Dramiel and tons of PVP experience otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell us all in so much detail how all of our proposed counters are pure "theorycraft".
Wait, you do have a dramiel and tons of PVP experience with it and aren't just talking out your ass right? What, just because someone is calling your bull**** you get hostile now?
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 18:44:00 -
[206]
In RvB some people fly Dramiels.
Hordes of frigates, inties, ranises, even rapiers sometimes try in vain with neuts, scrambers, webs, every fit you can imagine to catch and kill them, but nothing works.
Observing Dramiels in upwards of 50 battles, this is why I know the counters simply don't work.
You scramble and web them, they switch on AB, overheat and escape.
While ranises, crusaders, claws get caught and die, Dramiels simply fly around ganking frigates without a scratch.
I am saying Dramiels can kill most other frigates and escape too easily and that they can do both the inty job and the AF job so well they might obsolete them.
If a destroyer approaches a Dramiel, it simply flies away.
I do not consider Thrashers as being able to "counter" Dramiels, as my definition (yours may vary) as catching and killing a Dramiel that does not want to be caught, which it cannot do as it cannot catch a Dramiel in the first place.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.02.01 18:48:00 -
[207]
FWIW only one destroyer pilot has taken my Dramiel down 1v1 and he was not flying a Thrasher... (And it was mostly my own error, like usual)
So far all the Thrashers I've met have died, both Arty and AC fit. Of course most of these have been in Providence so I wouldn't really call it a good sampling of the finest Thrasher pilots in EVE 
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 18:56:00 -
[208]
We can safely dismiss RVB as a useful measurement of real PVP since they essentially have mass total noobs and strict rules about how to engage like no ECM. Basically RVB has no real PVP merit and your whole post reeks of hyperbole "dramiel flies around without a scratch because it's so uber". Your whole post is this "theorycraft" that everyone keeps talking about because you really don't have a Dramiel and lots of PVP experience do you?
Come on, lets have a 3v3. You bring a Dramiel, I'll bring a Thrasher. We'll see if you accomplish anything useful on the field.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.01 19:00:00 -
[209]
so desperate for a fight you twist all logic just to give rationale for one..
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Kismo
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Posted - 2010.02.01 19:03:00 -
[210]
What are you talking about I'm desperate to lose my ship to a Dramiel for the way you talk about how awesome they are and how totally uncounterable they are. All that anyone is getting out of this is that you talk big about how awesome something is BUT YOU YOURSELF CANNOT MAKE IT HAPPEN. Basically you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground and don't have enough merit to whine about how uncounterable a Dramiel is.
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