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Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:27:00 - [1] ...but tbh I cannot see any problem with the Sin! Sin has: - better drone bay as the Dominix - same bandwidth - the same drone and hybrid bonus - better slot layout ---------------------------- = same or even better damage potential plus - no targeting delay after decloaking - great speed while cloaked (125% per level...wtf... ^^) - agility bonus - covert jump portal stuffz So, why all the Black Ops bashing? Only disadvantage I see is it's huge price tag - I'd get a Navy Dominix for the same maybe. But as said above the Sin has some unique benefits! It's a sneaky hit-and-run drone carrier with jump ability and great amount of more or less free tool highslots. Or did I miss something? - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Chestrano Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:37:00 - [2] Edited by: Chestrano on 05/02/2010 02:38:06 1.You have one lowslot less then the dominix and a lot less armor. 2.Drones arent a good primary weaponsystem for covert ops ships since you cant just cloak when needed or you lose your drones. 3. I dont know how easy it is to fit, maybe there is another problem. - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1165197&page=2
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.05 02:42:00 - [3] Originally by: Chestrano Edited by: Chestrano on 05/02/2010 02:38:06 1.You have one lowslot less then the dominix and a lot less armor. 2.Drones arent a good primary weaponsystem for covert ops ships since you cant just cloak when needed or you lose your drones. 3. I dont know how easy it is to fit, maybe there is another problem. main problem with the sin is actually the agility bonus which can be considered useless. all the other 3 have better bonuses. ..altho the sin seems like a better deepspace repair station --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
King Rothgar Imperial Slave Hunter Society	Posted - 2010.02.05 03:07:00 - [4] Load up eft and try to fit a sin. Then compare to a similarly fitted dominix. The sin is terrible in comparison. The reason is the sin has fewer turret slots, less raw armor, loses a low slot and since it's t2, lacks the third rig slot but doesn't get a major resistance bonus. End result is it has around 50% less armor EHP than a normal dominix and less dps too. It also takes a small hit in structure and shield HP. The only thing BO's have going for them is their jump drive. Overall they are closer to a t1 BC than a BS in terms of performance. And I'm completely ignoring cost here. -----------------------------------------------------
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.05 03:25:00 - [5] Originally by: King Rothgar Load up eft and try to fit a sin. Then compare to a similarly fitted dominix. The sin is terrible in comparison. The reason is the sin has fewer turret slots, less raw armor, loses a low slot and since it's t2, lacks the third rig slot but doesn't get a major resistance bonus. End result is it has around 50% less armor EHP than a normal dominix and less dps too. It also takes a small hit in structure and shield HP. The only thing BO's have going for them is their jump drive. Overall they are closer to a t1 BC than a BS in terms of performance. And I'm completely ignoring cost here. tbh using black ops as frontline is a wee bit fail. they should be used more as complement than frontline. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Dusica	Posted - 2010.02.05 03:56:00 - [6] Edited by: Dusica on 05/02/2010 03:56:41 Pro ppl use black ops to great potential in what is supposed to do :)
King Rothgar Imperial Slave Hunter Society	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Grimpak tbh using black ops as frontline is a wee bit fail. they should be used more as complement than frontline. I disagree, atm it is since they suck at it but they shouldn't. It isn't like they are that expensive. My redeemer has a bigger price tag than most of my pvp ships but is no where near the most expensive. Not even in the top 5 tbh. It's the inferior performance that keeps me from fielding it. Pretty sad that a t2 ship is inferior in basically every possible way to its t1 counterpart. I'm not saying it lacks a use, I have one cause it serves a role none of my other ships can. But ironically that's a pve role, not pvp. The BO's desperately need a buff. The role is cool as hell, but it needs frontline capability. They need more armor than their t1 counterpart, not less and they need t2 resists. A bit more jump range would be very helpful as well. Really annoying when you can stargate between two systems but can't use the jump drive cause it's too far away. -----------------------------------------------------
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Dusica Edited by: Dusica on 05/02/2010 03:56:41 Pro ppl use black ops to great potential in what is supposed to do :) This, having a recon ship attack you then having a couple falcons, rapiers, stealthbombers appear ontop of you. happened around our area a few times before. Honest to god I'd think twice before engaging a recon ship around our area unless I had a decent amount of backup. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.02.05 04:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Grimpak tbh using black ops as frontline is a wee bit fail. True. But it shouldn't be because they are inferior to their T1 counterparts. It should be because they aren't cost effective to do so. Ideally BOs should be only slightly better than T1. Something where the 10x pricetag doesn't justify using them for every roaming BS gang, but enough to make them able to take on a single T1 toe-to-toe with identical fit and still most likely win. But that's pretty much the complaint from day one. Taxman VIII: Vlad in the 25th Century
Aesynil Caldari The Unit...	Posted - 2010.02.05 05:28:00 - [10] A single black-ops turns an arazu floating around in your sov system cloaked from a mild nuisance to a very real, very serious threat. All of the sudden, that one arazu turns into five, with no intel warning you, and the moment it gets any dicier, that turns into 5-10 black ops landing on top of you, ganking everything, then jumping right back out. They're mobile enough to perform in a guerrila role excellently, and against unprepared targets, are brutal. IF they did comparable damage, with equal tanks to their T1 counterparts, and were superior in all respects on that level, they would be absolutely devastating. As is, in the hands of a competent FC, they add a very real, very nasty tactical option. At least from my observations. Again, should 10 Black-ops run into 10 regular battleships, I dobut it will be pretty. But if that happens, you did something wrong. Strike when your enemy is weak, run when they're not. Watch the killmails roll in. The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry.

Footoo Rama Gallente Caldari Illuminati	Posted - 2010.02.05 10:18:00 - [11] Just because a BO is a BS hull does not mean it is a brawler. They exist to get in and get more people in system silently. They are great for that, and once there they make great rally points and repair/rearm stations once in place. Fighting a BO seems fail, sure it is boring flying one, but they excel in their niche. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!"
Prawl Blackwing	Posted - 2010.02.05 10:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Denuo Secus - no targeting delay after decloaking That only sounds nice, fitting a cloak puts a scan resolution penalty on your ship, making you lock a lot slower.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.05 11:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Footoo Rama They are great for that, and once there they make great rally points and repair/rearm stations once in place. Fighting a BO seems fail, sure it is boring flying one, but they excel in their niche. and tbh this is the best role for the sin. put a few ewar mods in the meds, light armor tank in lows, and cram the highs with RLAR's and RLHR's, and a few repair bots. when in combat just wait for the entire gang to warp in to the enemy, and then you can warp in, at range. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.02.05 11:45:00 - [14] I do really look forward to the day that black ops get a teeny boost so i'll have an excuse to fly them. As it stands, the Sin is a great ninja-ratter or so I hear, but aside from that its just filled with fail. Though it would have been an uber awesome nano-domi back in the day I guess.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.02.05 13:58:00 - [15] Black ops are newer and cooler so that means they have to completely own right? Nope. Use them for tactics other than noobishness and you would see something extremely powerful and cool. Problem is, like so many eve players, wallet and originality are important factors in determining if a ship will get used.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.05 17:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Aesynil A single black-ops turns an arazu floating around in your sov system cloaked from a mild nuisance to a very real, very serious threat. All of the sudden, that one arazu turns into five, with no intel warning you, and the moment it gets any dicier, that turns into 5-10 black ops landing on top of you, ganking everything, then jumping right back out. They're mobile enough to perform in a guerrila role excellently, and against unprepared targets, are brutal. IF they did comparable damage, with equal tanks to their T1 counterparts, and were superior in all respects on that level, they would be absolutely devastating. As is, in the hands of a competent FC, they add a very real, very nasty tactical option. At least from my observations. Again, should 10 Black-ops run into 10 regular battleships, I dobut it will be pretty. But if that happens, you did something wrong. Strike when your enemy is weak, run when they're not. Watch the killmails roll in. OMFG, this poster read "The art of war" instead of "the art of QQ'ing like a little girl with a skinned knee". -------------------------------------------------- I'm so Old I can remember when QQ was TT
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.02.05 17:10:00 - [17] Dude is right..totally right about using black ops ^
Von Kretschmer No Trademark	Posted - 2010.02.05 17:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Grimpak main problem with the sin is actually the agility bonus which can be considered useless. all the other 3 have better bonuses. It has an agility bonus because it can't really align while in combat like the others. You start getting to far from your drones and blaster optimal is obviously short. I have more kills in the Sin, but I traded it in for a Redeemer and won't go back.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2010.02.05 20:30:00 - [19] Ninja-gank-blobbage is indeed a very effective tactic. But so is gate and station camping. Which surprisingly enough I also consider pretty lame. Guess I'd just like to see BOs be able to stand on their own feet in a fight rather than 3+ on 1 odds to ensure victory. But I'm kinda starry-eyed and idealistic that way. Taxman VIII: Vlad in the 25th Century
Mr Ignitious The Scope	Posted - 2010.02.05 23:13:00 - [20] I'm glad everyone thinks spending 500+ mil for the bridge ship alone plus your claimed 5 other recons and 5 other bo's are worth dedicating to ganking lone ratters in 0.0 What a glorifying, satisfying niche. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?

Petra Katell Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.02.05 23:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Mr Ignitious I'm glad everyone thinks spending 500+ mil for the bridge ship alone plus your claimed 5 other recons and 5 other bo's are worth dedicating to ganking lone ratters in 0.0 What a glorifying, satisfying niche. Sucks to be poor.
Millsy1	Posted - 2010.02.06 00:29:00 - [22] It's funny, because I can bridge over 150 bombers at one time depending on the range.
Zaq Phelps Ad idem	Posted - 2010.02.06 01:10:00 - [23] /Me notes that a 150 man bomber swarm could two volley a carrier.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.06 01:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Mr Ignitious I'm glad everyone thinks spending 500+ mil for the bridge ship alone plus your claimed 5 other recons and 5 other bo's are worth dedicating to ganking lone ratters in 0.0 What a glorifying, satisfying niche. I wouldn't mind it if my Widow were on a par with say, a Raven or Scorpion. But it wouldn't really make any difference to how or when I'd use one. They're basically sub-par when compared with their T1 counterpart in a straight fight, and they pretty much always will be, unless you introduce a few hundred mil of 'overpowered sauce'. But what they can do, for which it has no competition, is bridge bombers, recons, and jump itself into a fight. If you cannot figure out how having an unscoutable rapid deploying strike force - even if it is 'undergunned' in a DPS/isk sense, then ... well, contract me your black ops, and I'll take 'em off your hands.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.02.06 03:30:00 - [25] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Mr Ignitious I'm glad everyone thinks spending 500+ mil for the bridge ship alone plus your claimed 5 other recons and 5 other bo's are worth dedicating to ganking lone ratters in 0.0 What a glorifying, satisfying niche. I wouldn't mind it if my Widow were on a par with say, a Raven or Scorpion. But it wouldn't really make any difference to how or when I'd use one. They're basically sub-par when compared with their T1 counterpart in a straight fight, and they pretty much always will be, unless you introduce a few hundred mil of 'overpowered sauce'. But what they can do, for which it has no competition, is bridge bombers, recons, and jump itself into a fight. If you cannot figure out how having an unscoutable rapid deploying strike force - even if it is 'undergunned' in a DPS/isk sense, then ... well, contract me your black ops, and I'll take 'em off your hands. The problem is not that people can't figure out how to use the portal effectively, its that people HATE that after training through cov-ops and recons, and then a bundle of capital skills, only to get to a ship that they will never fight with. Thats what sucks. You are exclusively a support ship which has a HUGE fuel bill and balls all range on its jump drives.
Millsy1	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:18:00 - [26] Ya. I use mine all the time, it's my main ratting ship. And while I might be able to rat a little faster in the typhoon, I can out-do most of the other guys ratting just because of my speed. I've used it in combat a ton. In fact every capital kill I'm on, is with the Panther. And used it on many pos shoots. (hell I even ninja'd a medium tower (no guns on it) from 50% to reinforced by myself using it, gg Sentry drones and enough cargo to hold 15k EMP-Large *note, it took 3 hours). But using it to bridge people behind enemy lines? Maybe 2 or 3 times in the last year. It just takes far too long to plan out. "What do you mean it's 15 cyno's to get where we're going?" That's a ~3 hour trip with a single covert cyno alt btw, which I only do for expensive cargo loads. "Oh you want to make a region jump? Good luck with that!" 4.5 light-years... yippy! And yes, 150+ bombers... or 5 cruisers. Oh and you probably don't have the fuel to jump back! (maybe not to even join them!) so you gotta bring a 3rd character with a covert hauler (who also uses as much fuel as the cruisers). 72X as many isotopes per Kg as a titan bridge, the ship is cheap, it's the upkeep that kills ya! Don't get me started on the number of Arazu's I've lost with my alt. Someone at CCP wants them to be used more? Give me the same jump range as a Dreadnought, cut the fuel cost by 50% minimum, (with a possible balance fix to limit the number of ships at one time that can jump, because don't need it overpowered). And then we'll talk turkey.
saango0	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:27:00 - [27] http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=74 I agree black ops are terribad. LOL, for many that are established in 0.0, the pricetag isn't a big deal considering how hard it is to lose one and the invaluable ability to bridge cov fleets into any system- if they were superior to t1 bs in gank/tank as well they would be pretty OP, the redeemer is actually a pretty effective combat BS.
Millsy1	Posted - 2010.02.06 07:38:00 - [28] Originally by: saango0 http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=74 I agree black ops are terribad. LOL, for many that are established in 0.0, the pricetag isn't a big deal considering how hard it is to lose one and the invaluable ability to bridge cov fleets into any system- if they were superior to t1 bs in gank/tank as well they would be pretty OP, the redeemer is actually a pretty effective combat BS. Oh my god... Multiple black ops... I... wow. What a concept. That would be so much fun.
King Rothgar Imperial Slave Hunter Society	Posted - 2010.02.06 08:03:00 - [29] Wow, 3 BO's to kill a lone BS, also a few recons and frigates. Yep, that's a good measure of it's capability. As has been said, sure, you can always blob the **** out of someone. You can 1 volley a titan if you just bring enough rookie ships with civilian guns on them. That's not the issue. Would making a BO outright superior to it's t1 counterpart be overpowered? No, absolutely not. A navy geddon is outright superior to the normal geddon, is that overpowered? The normal geddon isn't even close in performance. But the navy geddon also costs 10x as much, that's the balancing factor. The redeemer should probably be slightly better than the navy geddon in direct combat. Doing so is balanced by it costing 12-14x as much as a standard geddon. It's not necessarily cost effective, but it is better so if you want maximum capability with minimum pilots, then it's an option. That's what I and many others are asking for. The ship has it's uses like ninja ratting, FW missions and covert blobbing. But such limited roles are very limiting. The ship needs proper BS stats, ideally slightly above a navy geddon but clearly inferior to a bhaalgorn. The purpose of doing so is to keep it balanced with the standard line of ships. That line being T1 < Empire faction < T2 < Pirate faction. I honestly don't see why anyone would argue against making a 650M isk BS superior to a 45M isk BS. It's just silly that it would be inferior. -----------------------------------------------------
Millsy1	Posted - 2010.02.06 08:55:00 - [30] Btw.. my last post, I'm being serious. Kinda looks sarcastic now. I just find it hard to imagine getting so many people together who have a Black ops.. We have like 2 or 3 others in the whole alliance who own one, and I've only seen a widow out of station a handful of times. As for their damage capability. I'll just let the killmails speak there. DPS isn't the best short term, but long term it's just fine. And the Alpha is great since the patch. http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3096137 http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4920589 http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4957256



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