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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
That tells me all I need to know.
This game is a sandbox except when it isn't, which is determined via an arbitrary ruleset by an enforcement team who doesn't care about breaking the illusion of a sandbox.
Eve Online, 5/6/2003 - 6/28/2012, may she rest in peace. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore. Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all. I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I felt compelled to notify you about this little gem:
Quote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency
Uhm, all values in the market are artificial? Literally all of them. Sure, we divine an acceptable price based on mineral costs, but those too are artificial values, given value by the players charging X for them based on how they value their time, plus a sliding adjustment to curb demand (if they're smart). Ergo, there are no "real" values of an item because the entire economy runs on artificial value. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
So Sensational wrote:Mechaet wrote:That tells me all I need to know.
This game is a sandbox except when it isn't, which is determined via an arbitrary ruleset by an enforcement team who doesn't care about breaking the illusion of a sandbox.
Eve Online, 5/6/2003 - 6/28/2012, may she rest in peace. Devs developing their game in the way they think is best? Whodathunk! Devs breaking the sandbox to intervene when it's not required of them to do so. No harm came of this activity, no isk was generated, in fact trillions of isk were removed from the game via the isk sink that is the LP store. There literally was no reason to intervene here, except that they felt they got pantsed by some very smart players.
And they did. Because they wrote a terrible game mechanic. This should be a learning experience for them, not us. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
How about if I convert currency (ISK) to other forms, and then use a long-standing, perfectly-understood game mechanic to convert those forms back to currency at a rate higher than input?
I'm only asking because I do this literally every day I play. I've acquired Scrooge McDuck levels of isk doing it, too. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this. And they never will. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item.
I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote: I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)
Ban all PvE'ers. |
Mechaet
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Mechaet wrote:Mechael wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item. Huh. Sounds like PvE. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Converting one item (Quake L) into isk by using a built-in item->isk converter (rat bounties) at a greater rate than it cost me to acquire the original item. I do this all day. I must be a long-running exploiter. Well rat yourself out and get an award Fantastic idea. Heading over to the site now. |
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