|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yo the blog is broken.
e: Fixed now.
Aryth wins for the largest kill, but only because he had an iteron V pilot available. http://i.imgur.com/EE02F.png is what you can...er, could...do with bestowers. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
509
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 15:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP. The graph was edited on purpose as we didn't see the value in divulging the number. The disparity is what's important.
Sorry to spoil your secrecy then . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Squizz Caphinator wrote:API or GTFO :) (no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified) Might not be as impressive on eve-kill depending on whether or not eve-kill uses the new kill value yet. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
510
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Apparent Decadence wrote:Market manipulation is par for the course for Eve. No one seems to be bothered about the other side of this scheme - pre-arranged PVP kills.
In most PVP games, this is punishable. In Eve, it's not usually worthwhile. Here it was. Should it be punished?
Eve is not "most PVP games" and CCP is mot the developer of most CCP games. The fact that we're here, posting, instead of having been banned on the spot with no questions asked is proof of that, and the game is better for it.
And look it at as a roleplay move. Think about the inferno trailer movie - "For the right price, I'll set the universe on fire." You'd have to be crazy to think that if immortal spaceship pilots found out that they could make money by blowing up their friends, repeatedly, they'd do it in a heartbeat. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value.
Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
511
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 16:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Salpun wrote:Will the LP dumped into the FW system states be reversed as well?
Seeing as Minmatar were down to something like 160 points the other day, Amarr is doing a fine job of reversing the LP dumped on their own.
e: To clarify, Minmatar had Tier 4 before we came in. At most, the effect of our actions on the course of the war was that they were able to hold onto tier 4 longer than they may have on their own. Fweddit seems to be a force to be reckoned with. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
512
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
He already said he'd pass that one around internally. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.
Meaning, no, as much as many goons would like to see Jade lose the 8b isk he bragged about from Minmatar hitting Tier 5, he won't, nor would anyone else who happened to be online at the right time. I'm sure people will ask the same question about twenty times in the thread, though...
Vincent Athena wrote:Bagehi wrote:
Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
How will it be known that they did not do the manipulations themselves? Say with an alt on a trial account always played at a different location so as to have a different IP address? The original person was asking because Jade Constantine (among many others, but he posted about it) profited when we got Minmatar really close to Tier 5 and they finished the job. It irks many goons that someone they don't like legitimately profited off of our endeavors, you see. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mechaet wrote:Kismeteer wrote:For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers.
You didn't read the thread, did you? Sreegs said they left the numbers out on purpose. I can assure you, however, that the graph is quite correct and by no means made up... . |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1
You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough.
The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
515
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:Gogela wrote:While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.
Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.
+1 You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough. The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do. Not only that, but I was already a trilloinare before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play. Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug. But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons. CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked.
Can't quote this enough. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
515
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Aryth wrote:Sometimes Emergent Gameplay means dunking so hard you break the backboard! I can't say we are happy about this decision, but we respect it. Being unwound is a good thing as it gets us our capital back, and at least shows CCP wanted to be fair here. I applaud that decision. Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT I've said it before and I'll say it again, Every single one of you dirtbags needs a big giant BAN. Every..single..one. If you're Goonswarm, your only desire is to see people quit playing Eve, and basically destroy it. You are a threat and you should be treated as one. Anyone wearing the Goonswarm tags should be permanently banned from Eve Online.
Son, you mad. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
516
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 17:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Not only that, but I was already a trillionaire before this. It's not like I am crying all the way to the poor house if CCP just unwinds me. I will remain one of the riches players in EVE. Sure, I would more like trillions, but I got many news articles, a 160 page thread or whatever, multiple blogs/news annoucements and the most hilarious graph to ever exist in the history of EVE play.
Throw in the most ISK in kills/deaths records, and goddamn. I am pretty smug.
But really. The true reward is to dunk on Stoffer. If there is one things goons love, it's trolling goons. Even Ex-goons.
CCP gets press, we get our capital back, EVE gets another hilarious footnote in history. Everyone won here. We just won less than we woulda liked.
Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. Does not compute...
Bienator II wrote:this kind of market/LP payout/whatever anomalies should have been detected by CCP long before anyone admited the exploit.
this was basically a best case scenario, a small group of people creates an exceptional LP payout anomaly. If something changes by factor 1000 repeatedly every light should blink at the monitoring tools.
you are monitoring FW, aren't you? If they weren't before, they certainly are now. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
517
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:So would manipulating the price of a ship to receive large insurance payouts also be considered an exploit? Ex/ Atrons for 200m. Insurance doesn't work that way.
e: To clarify, insurance prices are (I believe) based on mineral prices, probably in a fairly similar way as CCP arrives at the estimated price ingame. However, they update extremely slowly. The insurance payouts you're seeing now are based on mineral prices several months ago, which is why the insurance payout seems so low. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:Funny, I said this, and I got the "tinfoil hat" from you Goons. Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What is the value of LP by itself? It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters. I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false. Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!
That's not really "tinfoil". Everything from the LP store ultimately has an isk cost, and it is thus theoretically possible to drive it all down to the point where it is no longer profitable. Note that this already happens in certain circumstances - because FW pilots pay twice normal at tier 2, or 4x normal at tier 1 ("normal" is at tier 3 and is equal to what regular mission runners pay), implants are actually a negative isk/LP value at those levels. You lose money buying them, a considerable amount of it, in fact. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace You get a cookie for being the first "CCP=goons" poster in the thread. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:I just had an idea...
Currently (or well, before the fix) the average prices were defined by a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster.
How about we give transactions a different weight, depending on, for example: - The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction containing this item is weight or: - The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight
I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general. On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.
-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons (or members of any given large block), but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.
Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^
The main flaw that I see with this idea is that it would be difficult to set the number of individual trades or players involved in such a way as to prevent price games, but not exclude items that are genuinely traded, but in low volumes, such as many officer items. Set that threshold low enough and, as Aryth said, you just get around it with multiple alts. Sure they wouldn't have standings and such to minimize fees, but if you're looking at a method of making trillions of isk, do you care?
I'll also note that as the price estimate is intended to serve as an estimate of market price, excluding hubs and main regions is a poor idea no matter how it's implemented, because those hubs and main regions are the largest markets. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme.
One step further, actually. The basket would not merely average items, but cut off obvious outliers (such as a 1% implant spiking to 68.7 million in value). It wouldn't work for everything, obviously - minerals are too varied in price to apply it uniformly, for example, but then again minerals are too large a market to feasibly game the price on anyway - but it would probably do a good job of mitigating attempted manipulations in items that are actual targets for this sort of thing. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Alain Kinsella wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. You're basically asking them to work it on a 'basket' or 'item class' level, which I assume would average against the number of items in that class. I do like that idea, a lot, and as long as the baskets are sufficiently large (i.e. mineral basket, P1 basket, etc) there will be far too much 'white noise' by the average Market user like myself. Its still possible (with enough capital) to do it, but you'll start to have trend-watchers amplifying the change and profiting outside the scheme. You need a 4.5 multiplier. So that means the amount of ISK required to even attempt such a thing, while holding it there for a price update, against all of EVE might make the best content ever. As one group of guys wage a price war with all of EVE, while CCP watches and laughs watches them get burned to the ground by turning off the updater for a bit. It's a super elegant solution, and is probably easy to code for them. But yep, they just need to get the baskets to be "big" and it's fixed.
And 4.5x is the worst case, which is "Can buy the seed item from the LP store and also have high warzone control." It rapidly becomes untenable if the items aren't in the LP store, or if your faction of choice has a lower tier. . |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 19:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Aryth wrote:The fix we proposed used a commodity group concept. So that CCP doesn't do a 90 day average of an individual units price, but instead of an entire group averaged together. You have to get it right, but say, DM-801 would be averaged with all other 1% implants.
The goal being you make it so hard to manipulate the price, the trader is having to move dozens of markets at once. Which isn't practical in EVE on this scale. Not with the multipliers required to do this. Hmm... should this group average be used for the est. value of each element of this group (a) or as a means to normalize the indivual averages (b)? I assume (b), because, in case of (a), there are many groups e.g. Sleeper salvage that have huge differences within the group. But with (b) how will you account for market shifts due to expansions etc? Parts of a group could suddenly become more valuable, not for market manipulation but for naturally increased need. Is there a (c) that I missed? //Edit: oh, you got into details later, let me read that up.
Certain disparities within a group are a given, yes, but to some degree they are corrected for by the /10000 modifier in the formula. And, beyond that, the price disparity required when you can't buy an LP store item and blow it up again is large (I'll decline to say how large) even at tier 4, and increases by a factor of 4 each tier the faction loses.
Also as aryth noted, anything player produced can just calculate its price based on input cost. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Believe me when I say that there are more than few goons who have known Sreegs' tender touch (along with many other pilots from many other corps and alliances, nullsec & otherwise, of course), and they definitely would not say that they got off lightly.
Different scenarios, but deciding that sreegs goes lightly on goons because of this one case is really quite laughable. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Querns wrote:Dealth Striker wrote:Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers. fyi this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job they literally hire him to deal with this sort of **** he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire this is his job "group decision" Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix. Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so.
CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing.
And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time spent fixing it would be spent one way or another. . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes Agreed, proves my point. Goons are free and clear to do what ever they wish with not punishment what so ever. It's only a matter of time before the Goons reach their goal of destroying Eve. Wake up people, the goons are hackers, exploiters, and generally evil people in the real world and in Eve. They need to be removed from this game entirely before they destroy it for the rest of us.
Oh you. You're such a flatterer, I'm blushing.
(for someone who prides themselves on maturity, according to their sig, you sure are freaking out like a ten year old girl here) . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rented wrote:It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.
However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.
Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.
At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote: Eve Community - the minority
Goons - the Majority
4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.
Got it. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote::Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI! So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you? P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
CCP GingerDude wrote:Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit? This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching.
So yeah. They'd noticed, they just didn't quite get all of the implications of it right off the bat. Or something. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal! I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 23:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something That graph was generated as part of the investigation. Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE? Well, why not?
I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
520
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 00:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:ROFLMAO
I have always said that people who find exploits like this are: a) brilliant b) spend too much time in-game
I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers. I'm currently unemployed & looking for work (which is what definitely makes part B true), but even then I'm with querns - CCP can't afford me, not when I'd have to move to iceland. I'm a mechanical engineer anyway, I don't know the first thing about programming...
Besides, being unable to muck around in the markets would be no fun. Same reason I'd never run for CSM...they kinda frown on insider trading by CSM members I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
521
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:My beef is with CCP's handling of the exploiters. To say on the one hand we are following this to the letter (as an excuse) and then saying on the other hand we discussed this, and this is how we are handling it, is pretty funny.
EULA wrote:CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct Sounds like they followed this to the letter to me.
Dealth Striker wrote:So if you look at it, there will always be an excuse given - so just man up and say the old saying "Our game, our rules, so either put up with it or there is the door". Do not insult peoples' intelligence with trying to come up with a believable excuse for justifying your actions.
Also, maybe should have kept the handling of the exploiters to in-house - you got to know it looks like favoritism. I would love to know the reasoning behind releasing the punishment to the forums. Sreegs' job is dealing with this sort of thing. Granted that normally entails botters and RMTers, but hey.
As to releasing it to the forums - this is really no different than when he went all viking raider on RMT rings. Only difference is that we posted about it first, so you know our names. Had we not posted, you probably wouldn't be complaining. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:Liam Mirren wrote:Goon tears best tears. what tears? i dont see any goon tears at all
Dealth Striker, Cipher Jones (who hasn't turned up in this thread, actually) and Pr1ncess Aria or whatever his/her name was are clearly goon alts. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
523
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mighty nice of CCP to go to the trouble of sifting through all the transactions made and carefully reversing them instead of just confiscating all the ill-gotten LP or banning them. Good job though.
They did this, you know. Almost right off the bat, in fact. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
524
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 01:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:So, CCP Sreegs, if I exploit...and tell you about it, I'll get banned right? It's just because it was Goons that they get off with pretty much nothing? This person. He's also a goon alt, and is another reason why it's possible for there to be goon tears in this thread. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 18:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Stocking our war markets is largely done by private players, for a profit. Aryth will tend to backstop war critical items with either his own personal money or alliance money, though, so as to prevent excessive price gouging. We're fine with goons war profiteering, it's when they get piggish on vital equipment that things get ugly (for them).
And then as aryth noted, there are things like capital and supercapital construction as well, which is also privately run. The biggest reason for this, really, is that its a truckload of work and no one would want to do it for free. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
542
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 19:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
That's three times that Jade's name has been invoked now, shouldn't he be here by now? I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 23:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ethilia wrote:So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances. Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT?
Ethilia wrote:Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.
Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 00:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
Youli Kepain wrote:Lets see how badly I will get flamed for this...
After all this is now done(more or less), there is only one thing left to say to the 5 Gentlemen responsible: Well played, Sirs, well played. It was a common sentiment in our reveal thread, so you won't necessarily get as flamed as you think... :)
Ethilia wrote:Then my reading comprehension must be bust: Aryth wrote:Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.
News to me. I know we have an internal auditor but I can't seem to figure out where the public bit comes from. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 00:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp: I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
543
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 01:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aryth wrote:corestwo wrote:I guess I look pretty dumb now :welp: That's why he's Riker and I'm Picard. A Picard with an Eyepatch, and a black Hat. ARRRRR Better analogy? You're Kirk, I'm Spock. That is, you have all the ideas, and I do all the hard thinkin'. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.
But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.
So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service? Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.
Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks) I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 21:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Part of it, I think, is that the only thing that necessarily scales in cost with inflation is gametime in the form of plexes. Raw materials themselves tend to be driven by straight up supply & demand, and manufactured goods have their prices track raw materials relatively closely thanks to race to the bottom effects - anyone can build anything, provided they have the proper skills, so the price is dictated by those who will build for the lowest profits. Inflation, therefore, never really enters the equation. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 00:36:00 -
[43] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:[hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game I'm pretty sure line 1 is proven wrong by line 2, among other things. He can tell you that he has banned many people, he cannot tell you the details about those who he has banned.
The two lines are not mutually exclusive and neither proves the other wrong. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
545
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 05:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:corestwo wrote:Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it. LP is a currency.
Have a point there, Mr Pedant, but isk inflation is what everyone talking about inflation in Eve is concerned about. I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
546
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch. hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game Riiiiight. Of course you can't say who you've banned. If you DID name names, that would "only" show the entire player base that people that abuse the system actually ARE held accountable. That wouldn't do. We can't have CCP demonstrating that they are thinking about the entire player base here. Instead though, with ex goons working at CCP, and more and more game changes favouring big null sec alliances (like the war dec re-nerf), and then of course giving plex to exploiting null sec players, well, that shows ALL KINDS of accountability, doesn't it?
CCP has named names exactly twice in the history of the game that I can recall when they've taken punitive action, and in both cases it involved a member of the CSM where explanation was necessary anyway - Mittani with the fanfest fiasco, and dude who's name I can't remember anymore for insider trading...and I don't think he was even banned for it.
But hey man, keep raging against CCP for a policy that's been in place for approximately "forever". I fought the law, and the law won. At least the law is merciful... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Almiel wrote:In cases of exploit, I think the "Name and shame" system is a good one. I doubt most of the perpetrators would mind, in fact, I would bet they like the infamy. Meanwhile it allows the Eve player base to focus there anger or outrage and really, the consequences to the shamed players would be punishment enough i.e hate mails, convos, de-valuation of their character etc. I have received zero hate mails or convos.
I feel neglected :( . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 17:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
yay ^_____^ . |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 02:50:00 -
[48] - Quote
More correctly...
Quote:Because the players made efforts to inform us about the issue their accounts will remain in good standing.
. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
549
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 02:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
Belonger wrote:if that graph is CORRECT there were more then 1 B LP per day produced. Thoose 5 ppl claim they earn only 5 Trilions on it so where is the rest of the lp/iskies?
From the graph it looks like 5 trilions per day not in 2 weeks.
SO i have a question did u catched other ppl usign that exploit? or did the CCP decide they are on marigin bcs they got less then soem amount of isks from it?
Uh...you realize that the graph is unlabeled, so you have no idea what the amounts on it are, right? And that we did this over several days, not just on one day, right? And that the 5 trillion was isk, not LP, right? . |
|
|
|