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Verdant Inquiries Public Announcement: A Blow to Sev3rance

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Punx Evangeline Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.16 13:00:00 - [61] Originally by: Archbishop Originally by: Darveses Considering Operation Black Lustrum takes place in Providence it is indeed quite unlikely to meet us there. sighs So you're saying a Star Fraction pilot... out of the blue... participated in a corp theft operation without even knowing the thief? Thats quite a confession. Archbishop Mr. Archbishop, As the Star Fraction pilot who was contacted by Mr. Breen, yes that is exactly what happened. When somebody gives you an opening in war you take it. So myself and 5 other brave Star Fraction pilots: Clovnea, Maia Demoncast, Chipmo, Sofia Roseburn and Raven Poer, bombed and killed a couple billion dollars worth of assests. -Punx
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 00:05:00 - [62] Well as I've seen no evidence to the contrary I will concede this may all be an amazing coincidence. It is certainly amazing. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.17 15:59:00 - [63] Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 17/02/2010 16:00:34 There have not only not been two incidents of the Star Fraction engaging in infiltration for the purposes of sabotage or theft, there has not even been one. Reference has been made to the Daedalus X-led assault on a -10 entity's holdings in a wormhole. The situation there is clear enough to anyone not wanting to distort the facts for their own purposes. That entity had obtained those assets through fraud and outright theft from the members of Daedalus X. They took steps to negotiate on the issue with that entity. There was no reasonable settlement. Indeed, the entity by its own diplomatic decisions became a -10 in the eyes of the Star Fraction. Daedalus X operatives accessed the stolen starbase in its wormhole anchorage and took such restitutive steps as were possible. This was not a question of two wrongs making a right. This was a question of reversing a single wrong. As for the case of these Sev3rance assets. The facts are clear. There was no Star Fraction infiltrator. There was not even an infiltrator from any other organization. There was a disgruntled Sev3rance pilot who chose to take actions that he drew to the attention of a third party and the Star Fraction. The Star Fraction, seeing -10 assets floating free in space, took the steps that can only be expected. This is war. We are not a space station lost property department. If we see enemy assets available for appropriation or destruction then we will react appropriately. We do not initiate infiltration for the purpose of sabotage or theft. And we will not do so, not against Sev3rance, not against the CVA and not against anyone else. We will respond appropriately to those who take such actions against us and we will use any information that comes into our hands from third parties as we see fit where it concerns our enemies. It is important to understand the ethical basis from which the Star Fraction takes this line. We will infiltrate for the purposes of gaining intelligence because this is both relatively low-risk for our operatives and is understood by virtually all rational and semi-rational actors in interstellar politics as a necessary part of politics, diplomacy and warfare in New Eden. We have no time for fake honour and synthetic virility contests on this question. Espionage, pure espionage, is not a question of honour or being unmanly. It is about information and information is the critical resource without which no political or military entity can function. This is why all serious political and military entities use spycraft. In contrast, the issue of infiltration for sabotage and theft is a vexed question and it is best summed up in terms of its short-term and long-term utility. In the grand scheme of things, few indeed have been the planned and executed long-range infiltration operations for sabotage and theft that have made much impact on the cluster. With one or two exceptions, most incidents of the type with lasting effect are born of opportunism in already disintegrating organizations. The efficiency of the method for effecting anything other than a short-term and relatively paltry gain is open to question. Add to this the fact that use of the method has a tendency to destroy avenues for diplomacy with otherwise reasonable people. Such people don't even have to be the target. It seems that most can put up with their mail being read, as it were, but are rather less willing to forgive the theft of their possessions and the sabotage of their installations. Believing as we do in the lasting utility of diplomacy, the dubious short-term utility and tenuous long-term utility of sabotage and theft seem a rather poor exchange for the best possible diplomatic and political basis on which to treat with other entities. We therefore choose to put the value of diplomacy before the arguable value of sabotage and theft, even where enemies are concerned. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:33:00 - [64] Quote: Reference has been made to the Daedalus X-led assault on a -10 entity's holdings in a wormhole. The situation there is clear enough to anyone not wanting to distort the facts for their own purposes. That entity had obtained those assets through fraud and outright theft from the members of Daedalus X. They took steps to negotiate on the issue with that entity. There was no reasonable settlement. Indeed, the entity by its own diplomatic decisions became a -10 in the eyes of the Star Fraction. I'm curious Cosmo... why was Star Fraction negotiating? After all this claimed fraud occured *before* the Daedalus corporation joined your alliance. I'm asking because your alliance has used "people should fend for themselves and not rely on others" as an excuse for declaring war. Does the Star Fraction now believe that third parties *should* protect and intervene on the behalf of others thus making those others dependent on them? I will also ask you if all 26 of those current corporation members besides the CEO conspired together to defraud Daetalus? If not I assume you then acknowledge that the odds are after a year of time has passed at least some of what was "appropriated" in this theft belonged to innocent victims not involved in the original fraud. It seems to be a pattern with the Star Fraction to take action against everyone and let the pieces fall as they may. In the past you have admitted you have attacked and defeated targets you shouldn't have been at war with. You've claimed you apologized and made reparations to these innocent victims. You've never answered though for the real cost of your actions in lives, of pilots who have left the pod and cluster never to return, of pilots who abandoned their homes in desparation as you steamrolled over them. I see a long trail of innocent victims in your wake. Here again I'm sure at least some of those 26 current corporation members were innocent victims thus this corp theft is just as heinous as any other. Trying to claim it's "righting a wrong" doesn't make up for the trail of innocent lives now broken you leave behind. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Darveses DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.18 00:25:00 - [65] I wasn't aware that age-related memory loss would be a problem for capsuleers, but obviously I was mistaken. You asked all those questions and made all those points before, they were answered - more than just once. --- Star Fraction Public - Follow us on YouTube!
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.18 12:46:00 - [66] Someone appears unable to understand the chronology. Not surprising as he talked about the restitutive action regarding Daedalus X happening within this last week, when in fact it happened several weeks ago. Daedalus X negotiated with the entity in question. They negotiated as Daedalus X corporation in a private property dispute. Something they were perfectly entitled to do. Now, the Star Fraction in fact had been asked to get involved by Daedalus X after they joined the alliance and indeed to set the other entity -10. A natural request but I was in the uncomfortable position of explaining personally to Daedalus X directors that indeed the Star Fraction could not directly involve itself in matters that occured before a member corporation joined the alliance. We certainly would not be able to take actions against the party that Daedalus X were in dispute with and would neither set them -10 or declare war on them for the actions in question. I explained that Daedalus X could leave the alliance in a perfectly amicable manner if it wished to take restorative action beyond negotiation and agreement that would conflict with the Star Fraction's rules of engagement. Daedalus X, to their great credit, decided to remain in the alliance and continued to take up the matter with the party to the dispute. Evidence then emerged that the other party had Daedalus X set to -10. At this point it became a potential alliance diplomatic matter. I would think that is comprehensible to anyone. To resolve this diplomatically, some exchanges aimed at clarifying standings and resolving disputes took place, with the Star Fraction seeking neutrality and an amicable resolution satisfactory to all. The fact that the other entity had a member corporation of the alliance set -10 was then established and all that subsequently happened essentially flowed from that fact. I do not propose to repeat all this again. I have put the position so far as the Star Fraction is concerned in terms of its diplomatic and military policies. I find it rather incomprehensible that an enemy of the Star Fraction is doing little else than give us an opportunity to show that we do indeed pursue diplomacy and hold to a quite strict standard when it comes to what cases the alliance considers it proper to act over. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Emeline Cabernet Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.02.18 13:33:00 - [67] gelo breen was a titan pilot at one point?
Mazca Lopez Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.18 13:44:00 - [68] Originally by: Emeline Cabernet gelo breen was a titan pilot at one point? Dead Titans: Continued Sev3rance: (1) Gelo Breen [IRNP] <-7-> Lev
GanSho Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.02.18 23:49:00 - [69] Edited by: GanSho on 18/02/2010 23:49:32 Originally by: The Cosmopolite [...] Do you actually believe the Nonesense you are talking!? You didn't happen to "stumble upon a few dozen ships wich their Pilots have left carelessly in Space", you used infiltration to try to steal those ships from their resonable secure location, wich you normally would have to assault directly in a day long siege, something you didn't even dare doing despite the support of Crimson, Privateers, Noir. and TLF (I wonder when Outbreak and Electus Matari will show up , how many more peons do you want to hire to inflict any kind of damage to our small industrial Alliance?) - how practical to have allies not bound to your so called "NRDS" btw. As I already said, until this incident Star Fractions war - however ill-advised and thoroughly stupid it was - was at least honorable. This is not the case anymore. You have betrayed even your own most basic principles (and you can write prose denying it as much as you wish, I actually couldn't care less) for the gain of claiming a propagandaic victory. You better pray to whatever god you may believe in that your short-term thinking pays off for you, because you can rest assured that we will never forget or forgive this. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.19 00:14:00 - [70] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Daedalus X negotiated with the entity in question. They negotiated as Daedalus X corporation in a private property dispute. Something they were perfectly entitled to do. Now, the Star Fraction in fact had been asked to get involved by Daedalus X after they joined the alliance and indeed to set the other entity -10. A natural request but I was in the uncomfortable position of explaining personally to Daedalus X directors that indeed the Star Fraction could not directly involve itself in matters that occured before a member corporation joined the alliance. We certainly would not be able to take actions against the party that Daedalus X were in dispute with and would neither set them -10 or declare war on them for the actions in question. I explained that Daedalus X could leave the alliance in a perfectly amicable manner if it wished to take restorative action beyond negotiation and agreement that would conflict with the Star Fraction's rules of engagement. So you acknowledge that you can not become involved as it happend prior to them joining the alliance. This is good for a start. Quote: Daedalus X, to their great credit, decided to remain in the alliance and continued to take up the matter with the party to the dispute. Evidence then emerged that the other party had Daedalus X set to -10. At this point it became a potential alliance diplomatic matter. They had set Daedalus X to -10 not the Star Fraction. At this point then it is still a corporation matter as you admit readily it wasn't the alliance as a whole affected. Given your earlier stance of not becoming involved I would have expected you at this point to tell Daedalus to leave the alliance and deal with their "problem" then return once it was settled. You basically reversed your position here. Quote: I would think that is comprehensible to anyone. To resolve this diplomatically, some exchanges aimed at clarifying standings and resolving disputes took place, with the Star Fraction seeking neutrality and an amicable resolution satisfactory to all. The fact that the other entity had a member corporation of the alliance set -10 was then established and all that subsequently happened essentially flowed from that fact. So the Star Fraction set their negative standings to protect a corporation that was operating as an independent group in the negotiations. I always thought it was your policy to encourage people to fight for themselves and not rely on others for protection (as in the case of Mito for example). This seems very hypocritical. Quote: I do not propose to repeat all this again. I have put the position so far as the Star Fraction is concerned in terms of its diplomatic and military policies. I find it rather incomprehensible that an enemy of the Star Fraction is doing little else than give us an opportunity to show that we do indeed pursue diplomacy and hold to a quite strict standard when it comes to what cases the alliance considers it proper to act over. The timeline is very clear as are your actions. Given your past alliance history as extortionists I have to believe you didn't attempt any meaningful "negotiation" at all. You probably threatend the other party as is your usual style. Then when they failed to answer in the manner you would have prefered you used that as an excuse to commit this corp theft operation. I notice Cosmo you haven't addressed the comment I made that it was likely at least some of what was "appropriated" belonged to innocent victims who had nothing to do with the original fraud. Or are you claiming all 27 members of that corporation were involved in a massive conspiracy to defraud together and thus all deserved to be hurt by this theft operation? You want to have your cake and eat it to. Independent corporation then alliance issue. It's clearly hypocritical. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.19 00:16:00 - [71] Originally by: GanSho you used infiltration to try to steal those ships from their resonable secure location, No my dear Gansho we used the dissatisfaction, or as you own Snakey called it a brainfart, of one of you trusted members to further our own ends. At no point was anyone directed or encouraged to infiltrate your alliance for this purpose. If we had done so, which we don't, and had a plan for it I think we could have done something a touch more spectacular than the billions of isk worth of damage. As it was your ex-member was kind enough to give us a leaving present before imploding. Quote: You better pray to whatever god you may believe in that your short-term thinking pays off for you, because you can rest assured that we will never forget or forgive this. Oh no... How will we cope? Heartstone ---
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.19 00:27:00 - [72] Originally by: Heartstone No my dear Gansho we used the dissatisfaction, or as you own Snakey called it a brainfart, of one of you trusted members to further our own ends. At no point was anyone directed or encouraged to infiltrate your alliance for this purpose. If we had done so, which we don't, and had a plan for it I think we could have done something a touch more spectacular than the billions of isk worth of damage. As it was your ex-member was kind enough to give us a leaving present before imploding. Heartstone Obviously this corp theft operation was the work of a Star Fraction agent not some "disgruntled employee". The Star Fraction is well known for their spy operations and in fact often brag about how spycraft is an important part of their operations. Seeing these denials by the Fractionists merely indicates their desperation as they fight the public condemnation of their actions and their failure to "spin" their way out of it. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.19 00:55:00 - [73] Originally by: Archbishop Obviously this corp theft operation was the work of a Star Fraction agent not some "disgruntled employee". Putting the word "obviously" in front of a pack of lies does not make it any more true. Heartstone. ---
Darveses DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.19 01:29:00 - [74] So Gelo Breen, a former -7- titan pilot, if I'm not mistaken, was a Star Fraction spy to begin with. Yes, I believe this must be correct! --- Star Fraction Public - Follow us on YouTube!
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.19 14:44:00 - [75] Originally by: GanSho Do you actually believe the Nonesense you are talking!? You didn't happen to "stumble upon a few dozen ships wich their Pilots have left carelessly in Space"[...] Quite right and I believe everything I have said and not what you have erroneously quoted. I did not say the above. I said that the information as to free-floating Sev3rance assets was passed onto us. I make no claims as to 'stumbling' on anything. We received the information, confirmed it and acted against vulnerable enemy assets. Any pretence that Sev3rance would not do precisely the same thing if the positions were reversed is simply not credible. As to the accusation of infiltration, false and you know very well it is false. You are a liar, GanSho. You know, as Snakester knows, that Gelo Breen had some kind of moment of madness and acted to deactivate the starbase and thus expose the assets held there. No infiltration, no secret agent. Just a longstanding member of Sev3rance who acted unilaterally for reasons only he can really account for. You might admit this and cease flailing around and talking about honour when with the previous breath you've spouted nothing but a lie. I also wouldn't be too keen to try and lecture about NRDS when your so-called 'anti-pirate' alliance has had to resort to recruiting former self-admitted pirates and raiders against the Providence allies now magically converted to 'anti-piracy' and love of the CVA. No doubt Archbishop would have something to say about 'harbouring' pirates if he were not so hypocritical and keen to cover up anything done by his allies no matter how disreputable. We saw it with the self-confessed pirate, Merdaneth, and we saw the frantic spinning, as he might say, over No.Mercy until finally, but not until the latter entity started attacking CVA and allies be it noted, the scales fell from his eyes. Archbishop is just being an opportunist hypocrite, frantically grabbing any straw that he thinks might be useful in lighting a fire under the Star Fraction. Even with Snakester and Gelo Breen's remarks in this very thread he bizarrely claims that a Star Fraction agent was responsible. Possibly the defrocked priest, never much for getting his facts right, made an error that he will correct. You, who know better, are just telling lies and everyone can see it. If that is Sev3rance 'honour' then I think it is as well we don't see Sev3rance acting dishonourably. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Sinti Vailatti Kuomi Logistics	Posted - 2010.02.19 15:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Archbishop Tell me... were you in the same system when this occurred or were you contacted via comms by the "dissident" as you called him? I'm asking because while Star Fraction is on a campaign attacking mining barges and worrying about indices the -A- alliance is fielding the military firepower here according to all indications. Thus I assume the "dissident" would call them as they were the active military force attacking -7-. Unless you were just flying by and contacted in local? Archbishop Hi Boss! As far as we can tell, Chip was with Jade and Jasmine and about a dozen others from SF as they slunk out of low-sec and back under ConcordÆs skirts in Kamela. Chip was the one flying a Chimera and hiding at the POS at Kamela XI, Moon I. I guess this whole thread is that since my peopleÆs militia wonÆt do their dirt work for them anymore, theyÆre conning small pirate companies to do their acts of piracy for them. Ah well. Hey Boss, when the Empire kicks them out of Kamela (again) where do you think theyÆll go? IÆm hoping Tama. Let the Gallente deal with æem for a while. ôAint gonna happen chummer!ö Hehe. Ok, IÆm off to go mining. Good seeing ya here again Boss. Can I have a new collar? ThereÆs this really nice one I saw with these little emeralds in ità KUOMI LOGISTICS: The bright future, today!Ö
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.20 00:31:00 - [77] Originally by: The Cosmopolite No infiltration, no secret agent. Just a longstanding member of Sev3rance who acted unilaterally for reasons only he can really account for. You might admit this and cease flailing around and talking about honour when with the previous breath you've spouted nothing but a lie. Given your past bragging about "spycraft" and your admitted past use of longterm spies in your operations I'm sure you'll understand if no one believes you. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Jessica Ovarde Gallente Verdant Inquiries Asomat Drive Yards	Posted - 2010.02.20 00:37:00 - [78] Originally by: Archbishop Originally by: The Cosmopolite No infiltration, no secret agent. Just a longstanding member of Sev3rance who acted unilaterally for reasons only he can really account for. You might admit this and cease flailing around and talking about honour when with the previous breath you've spouted nothing but a lie. Given your past bragging about "spycraft" and your admitted past use of longterm spies in your operations I'm sure you'll understand if no one believes you. Archbishop Given your tendency to spout reams of logically inconclusive tat, I'm sure you'll understand if everything you say is taken with a fistful of salt.

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