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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.02.19 11:30:00 -
[31]
If you are in a roaming gang you are in a light, quick force. Don't expect to alpha freigthers and similar.
Or bring more forces - you know they manage to alpha the big stuff even in hi sec.
Or bring a ship with probes.
It's definitely a mirror copy of the mission forum cry threads about people not adapting to the game and screaming nerf at ninjas and can flippers and demanding the game to be changed to suit their "fairness" agenda.
Game's being unfair for both categories, that looks like EvE is balanced against both the "factions" in the end. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.02.19 12:09:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Gladys Pank on 19/02/2010 12:11:32
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/02/2010 09:24:49
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Gladys Pank Stop gate camping like a lameass and you won't have to QQ about this.
Are you suggesting he take risks and work for his killmails? You must be MAD!
Way to miss the point, or did the game change last week in a way that sitting at the same spot for hours without moving is suddenly safer than ganking something and immediately disappearing into a safespot?
Not even mentioning the fact that organized gatecamps have ways to work around the logoffski, which small roaming gangs and solo pvpers have not.
Eve is based on risk versus reward, where is the risk in jumping through a gate when you can just ctrl-q on the other side? In other words, how hypocritical does one have to be to ask for campers "working for their kills" and at the same time assume its perfectly valid for travellers to NOT work for their safety?
I don't recall actually advocating logoffskis.
Also your post implies gate camping is easy as you suggest they have workarounds, therefore negating any claim that logoffski is overpowered. By your claim it is counterable.
Your ship fittings are terrible by the way.
edit: spelling ~
Soar Like a Penguin |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.19 17:41:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/02/2010 17:41:24
Originally by: Gladys Pank
Quote:
Not even mentioning the fact that organized gatecamps have ways to work around the logoffski, which small roaming gangs and solo pvpers have not.
Also your post implies gate camping is easy as you suggest they have workarounds, therefore negating any claim that logoffski is overpowered. By your claim it is counterable.
Reading comprehension is not your strong part I take it. I never said it was easy, but there are ways to still catch the ship with a bit of luck.
These however do not apply for roaming gangs or solo players, so in most situations it is not counterable, unless you want to advocate 50-ship gatecamps as primary form of pvp.
Originally by: Gladys Pank
Your ship fittings are terrible by the way.
So are your forum posts, guess neither can be helped.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.19 22:46:00 -
[34]
Ideally, what should happen during disconnects (as opposed to graceful client exit where it sends exit message to server) is that server AI takes over your ship and either attempts to continue the fight (if there's active engagement) or get safe and disappear after log out timer.
I had my share of disconnects during battle - and believe me, when that happens, the current log out mechanics don't help at all. If you disconnect during battle, your ship has 15 aggro, it's probably scrambled anyway. I would wish that my ship could continue fighting at least with intelligence of Sleeper AI until I can reconnect and take over control
But when there's no battle, extending 1 minute log out timer to 2 minutes or doing some other changes to prevent abuse would help in much more situations than it would hurt.
The most common abuse of the current system is when people jump + log right away. The chance of that happening for real is low. And even when people have lag problems loading grid - it doesn't help them at all, because their enemies see their ships appear at the gate, there is no emergency warp, and they get killed anyways.
The current system only helps cheaters.
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Removal Tool
Space Jerks
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Posted - 2010.02.20 03:06:00 -
[35]
Hi it's vince from shamwow, you'll be saying wow everytime.
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MarieFrance Tessier
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Posted - 2010.02.22 04:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Future Mutant Edited by: Future Mutant on 17/02/2010 19:54:48 My solution is to have the second log off have him warp to a safe spot like normal- but when logged back in warp to the original location (known as x above) You should always warp to x when logged back in.
C/d?
CCP has on a few occasions said that this is their ideal solution to the problem, and that they are working on a way of implementing it.
An additional nice way to do it would be for "emergency warp" to be a command that is issuable at any time, and issued automatically by logoff/crash. It warps you you 1,000,000 KM the direction you are aligned to and activates 'distress beacon' which shows up on via onboard scanner as warpable. This removes logoffski as a valid tactic, since it is tantamount to pressing the E-warp button, makes it easier (read: trivial) to probe out for offensive PVP vessels (Which should be inescapable even in DC, there's no other fair way to decide it), plus it adds something the game lacks: If you hang out in your ewarp SS for a minute with your distress beacon up, you should be able to logoff instantly (As it is essentially picking logoff from game menu, but keeping a viewscreen up as you count down the minute in space timer).
Note the distress beacon interferes as cloak with module activation, it is precisely considered to match the behavior of logging off, except that you can still watch what happens.
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Salen Kane
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.02.22 12:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kijo Rikki I wonder how they could fix this without screwing people who are legitimately disconnected in dire straits. Can the internets people tell if a connection has been properly closed or if it was an actual dc?
They could just put a timer on the logout-warp so it could only occur once every 5 minutes or so. That way, people who suffer an untimely disconnect is safe, but it becomes harder to exploit.
If you disconnect repeatedly you shouldn't be out PvPing anyway, and the people who would be screwed over by this change would be quite few compared to those that get screwed over by the exploiting of the mechanic as it is now. Do not try to pwn with the ship. You are only pwning yourself. Instead, realise that there is no ship, there is only you, pwning. |
Ackwell
Tiera Javelin Ltd.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 12:54:00 -
[38]
Problem 1: Mentioning elite PVP and logoffski in the same thread. If anyone thinks he/she is "elite PVPer" he/she won't play with logoffski. In PVP you sometimes lose and sometimes win. Running from battle in dire situation is ok within game mechanics and player skill but you if have to do it by "cheating" I don't see it as something so called "elite PVPer" would do. Or would you call him "elite" then?
Just my personal opinion. But if there is somebody from the feared "elite PVP" community, please share yours too. Is this so far reaching problem in "elite PVP"?
And by the way, what defines PVP as "elite"?
Ackwell Javelin Commander
P.S. Yes, I'm at work and on a really bad mood :)
Ackwell CO, Tiera Javelin Ltd. Caldari Honor! Amarr Victor!
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2010.02.22 13:53:00 -
[39]
Can someone explain the mechanic behind it for me. I would like to use it. Plz thx
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 15:22:00 -
[40]
I don't use it, but have seen it used many times. Can't say it really bothers me though.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2010.02.23 18:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ephemeron
The most common abuse of the current system is when people jump + log right away...
The current system only helps cheaters.
Strange you dislike this "system" yet are all over the cloak mwd "tactic".
Surely being able to ccp sanctioned logofski is saving "solo hauluage" in eve. According to your logic the gang should be using cunning measures to bait the pilot into a belt.
Both logofski and cloak-mwd use unintentional side effects in order to escape PVP. At least with logofski - the player is subsequently trapped out of game for a while until things cool down. With cloak-mwd he fly to the next gate to do the same thing again and again and again.
Just goes to show - people dont like cheating unless it benefits them.
SKUNK (o)
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.24 03:55:00 -
[42]
Le Skunk, that's a stawman argument.
With that kind of defense you can dismiss any meaningful discussion of game balance. Nothing would ever get done if people took that seriously. And while I could come up with counter argument, I know that it would be pointless since you can just keep them coming.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.02.24 04:23:00 -
[43]
Oh boo ****ing hoo.
Gate campers bored out of their skull miss out on a kill because he logoffskied.
Make a thread about it ffs..
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2010.02.25 02:59:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Just goes to show - people dont like cheating unless it benefits them. SKUNK
(o)
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.02.25 04:03:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/02/2010 04:03:41
Originally by: Zeba
Gate campers bored out of their skull miss out on a kill because he logoffskied.
What are you on about? I hate gates being the primary kill zone of the game as much as the next guy.
But that doesnt change anything about my opinion that someone being dumb enough to jump his unscouted freighter into a camped system deserves to get his ship popped.
By your logic I should be able to log off and survive when I get blobbed in a belt taking some random bait, I should probably be able to log off and get my isk back when buying overpriced stuff, log off when I dont like a loot drop etc
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.02.25 05:09:00 -
[46]
uh... if the logoffski person was forced to warp back to spot X after the logoff then why would they log back in?
Either way you still lose.
(I'm assuming that the 15 minute agression timer is not applied when a person logs out before being engaged Confirm/Deny?)
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.25 06:49:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Le Skunk
Just goes to show - people dont like cheating unless it benefits them. SKUNK
I'm against all cheating. When I first discovered the MWD+cloak trick I made a public forum post about it asking for guidance from EVE community and CCP. CCP confirmed it was not cheating. There were numerous other threads and statements from GMs.
Quote: (I'm assuming that the 15 minute agression timer is not applied when a person logs out before being engaged Confirm/Deny?)
Confirmed. That is one of the major flaws in current system. I asked several time to change it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.02.25 07:11:00 -
[48]
To op. Boo Mother****ing Hoo.
You missed out on a nub killmail so cry us a river. So did the other 20 noobs you killed at the camp who were flying t1 untanked industrials filled with their entire amassed assets not satisfy you?
LRN2PVP
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
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Van PokerAlho
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Posted - 2010.02.25 16:24:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Fumitsugu
Originally by: Gladys Pank Stop gate camping like a lameass and you won't have to QQ about this.
Agreed.
lol
is this a good answer?
do you know the game main concept is about travelling thru different systems? and do you know that gates are used for that?
There are some nice tutorials ingame and out of game(so I heard) maybe its time for you to read/make/use them? just a suggestion.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2010.02.26 18:41:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 26/02/2010 18:44:42
EMPHERMERONS ARGUMENT
1) Ephemeron states he is "against all cheating" - and continues to defend his usage of the cloak mwd tactic by saying CCP confirmed many times it was not cheating.
2) Ephemeron states that the present logging off system "helps only cheaters". This time Despite the fact the CCP have confirmed many times it is not cheating CCP declare that it is not up to them to decide when a player logs on or off.
So he quotes CCP when he uses one tactic that benefits him (he cloak mwds all around the map). Yet ignores CCP when he comes up against another tactic that he disapproves of (targets vanishing into thin air on a gate)
Which lead me once again to state (this time clearly evidenced)that it
Just goes to show - people dont like cheating unless it benefits them.
Quotes For Proof
Ephemeron referring to Logofski:
Originally by: Ephemeron
The most common abuse of the current system is when people jump + log right away. The chance of that happening for real is low. And even when people have lag problems loading grid - it doesn't help them at all, because their enemies see their ships appear at the gate, there is no emergency warp, and they get killed anyways.
The current system only helps cheaters.
Ephermeron referring to cloak mwd:
Originally by: Ephemeron I'm against all cheating. When I first discovered the MWD+cloak trick I made a public forum post about it asking for guidance from EVE community and CCP. CCP confirmed it was not cheating. There were numerous other threads and statements from GMs.
(o)
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.26 19:07:00 -
[51]
If you want to get neat picky with semantics, I haven't actually said that logging off after gate jump is cheating. Feel free to double check my posts.
I said this tactic helps cheaters. Logically, that does not imply that all people using this tactic are cheaters, nor does it imply that the use of this tactic makes one a cheater. What I do imply is that people who want to cheat are interested in using this tactic.
I consider it to be bad game design.
Anyway, again you aren't helping to further your cause by pushing the argument in current direction. The only people who can do anything are CCP, and they couldn't care less about what you think about some other player's opinion on cheating or how logically consistent some other player's forum posts are.
The target is CCP, shoot in their direction.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2010.02.26 19:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ephemeron If you want to get neat picky with semantics, I haven't actually said that logging off after gate jump is cheating. Feel free to double check my posts.
I said this tactic helps cheaters. Logically, that does not imply that all people using this tactic are cheaters, nor does it imply that the use of this tactic makes one a cheater. What I do imply is that people who want to cheat are interested in using this tactic.
I consider it to be bad game design.
Anyway, again you aren't helping to further your cause by pushing the argument in current direction. The only people who can do anything are CCP, and they couldn't care less about what you think about some other player's opinion on cheating or how logically consistent some other player's forum posts are.
The target is CCP, shoot in their direction.
Poppy****.
Ive got you bang to rights on this and you know it.
Im not interested in what CCP think - I was responding to clear hypocrisy and making the point that some of those who can be most vocal about one element of obvious bad game design (as I agree the present logofski mechanics are) are often happily "abusing" another (as you do with cloak-mwd).
Its not specifically you, I just tend to point it out when i remember a name in conjunction with a previous subject.
SKUNK (o)
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Nobani
Merch Industrial SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
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Posted - 2010.02.26 21:43:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Le Skunk Both logofski and cloak-mwd use unintentional side effects in order to escape PVP. At least with logofski - the player is subsequently trapped out of game for a while until things cool down. With cloak-mwd he fly to the next gate to do the same thing again and again and again.
In 0.0, a couple of anchorable bubbles/dictors are often enough to disrupt the cloak+mwd trick enough to allow a skilled group of gate campers to catch anything without a covops cloak. I haven't tested it, but they should also hold someone who logs in place for a minute, during > 30s of which they should be vulnerable, giving you a chance to kill them.
In low-sec, bubbles are of course not allowed. Shocking revelation: travelling solo through low-sec is safer than travelling solo through 0.0!
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Commander Shag
No Trademark
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:07:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Nobani I haven't tested it, but they should also hold someone who logs in place for a minute, during > 30s of which they should be vulnerable, giving you a chance to kill them.
If someone logs off in a bubble, they agress as they try to emergency warp. They won't go anywhere, but even if they did they'd sit in space for 15 minutes.
Along the same lines, watching a cap stable heavy dictor get unintentionally disconnected with it's bubble up is... amusing.
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lil j0n
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kijo Rikki I wonder how they could fix this without screwing people who are legitimately disconnected in dire straits. Can the internets people tell if a connection has been properly closed or if it was an actual dc?
What's the matter with screwing people over who are legitimately disconnected? |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.27 03:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: lil j0n
Originally by: Kijo Rikki I wonder how they could fix this without screwing people who are legitimately disconnected in dire straits. Can the internets people tell if a connection has been properly closed or if it was an actual dc?
What's the matter with screwing people over who are legitimately disconnected?
There's 1 way that CCP could greatly help those who legitimately disconnect in battle situation while making it bad for people who abuse logging to save their ships:
When player loses connection, have Sleeper-type AI take over control of player's ship. It should be smart enough to know how to manage shield booster / armor rep, to target and attack ships within optimal range, use web/scramble if available, and to try to warp out to safe.
At same time, aggro timer should be applied to anyone who gets hit after logging. If people log without aggro, and they get hit within 60 seconds before their ship disappears, they should get 15 minute aggro timer.
This doesn't harm legitimate disconnects as much because those people actually log back in as soon as they can - within 1 minute usually. Those who can't - still take advantage of AI controlling their ship.
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Sulg
Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
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Posted - 2010.02.27 04:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: lil j0n What's the matter with screwing people over who are legitimately disconnected?
Nothing. It should be completely acceptable. Don't undock what you aren't willing to lose to a disconnect if your internet sucks. It's just that simple.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Warp speed is not fast enough. We must go straight to...ludicrous speed! |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.02.27 05:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/02/2010 04:03:41
Originally by: Zeba
Gate campers bored out of their skull miss out on a kill because he logoffskied.
What are you on about? I hate gates being the primary kill zone of the game as much as the next guy.
But that doesnt change anything about my opinion that someone being dumb enough to jump his unscouted freighter into a camped system deserves to get his ship popped.
By your logic I should be able to log off and survive when I get blobbed in a belt taking some random bait, I should probably be able to log off and get my isk back when buying overpriced stuff, log off when I dont like a loot drop etc
A ship that logoffskis is vulnerable for 60 seconds after he hits control-q. Lock him up as soon as he appears on his align for the emergency warp and make sure to have enough dps to kill him in that 60 seconds. That you failed to do that is all on you. Period.
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2010.02.27 05:43:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 27/02/2010 05:43:43
Originally by: Zeba A ship that logoffskis is vulnerable for 60 seconds after he hits control-q. Lock him up as soon as he appears on his align for the emergency warp and make sure to have enough dps to kill him in that 60 seconds. That you failed to do that is all on you. Period.
So now we have to put 15 Damage battleships on every gate to kill the log-ofski freighter. When this is done the carebears call us blobbers and complain that sentry guns are not effective against large gangs and whine for sentry guns to be boosted.
So 15 people are needed to catch one lone logofskie non-cheat. Yes very balanced.
SKUNK (o)
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.02.27 05:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Zeba on 27/02/2010 05:59:41
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 27/02/2010 05:43:43
Originally by: Zeba A ship that logoffskis is vulnerable for 60 seconds after he hits control-q. Lock him up as soon as he appears on his align for the emergency warp and make sure to have enough dps to kill him in that 60 seconds. That you failed to do that is all on you. Period.
So now we have to put 15 Damage battleships on every gate to kill the log-ofski freighter. When this is done the carebears call us blobbers and complain that sentry guns are not effective against large gangs and whine for sentry guns to be boosted.
So 15 people are needed to catch one lone logofskie non-cheat. Yes very balanced.
SKUNK
Indeed. Now count on moar fingers of one hand the number of freighter logoffskis you have missed killing. Yeah, I thought so. Cri sum moar..
edit: yeah im drunk tonite. It takes less than 15 crap t1 fit dps bs to kill a freighter in the 15ish seconds you have before concord pwns your arse in a .5 highsec system. You can't do it in the entire zomg forever 60 seconds lulz paltry gate gun dps sentry range low sec gate? U R TEH FAIL.
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
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