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Millie Clode Amarr Standards and Practices	Posted - 2010.02.20 14:57:00 - [61] AML cerb. Dram gets close, dram dies. Dram tries to kite out of range, dram dies. ---------- Sig Page 1 Snipah YOU CANT MINE SO YOU KILL
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:13:00 - [62] wtf. dudes. curse. ta. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:16:00 - [63] cBOLTSON the combat interceptor role is more deverse than it was before dominion. The (dramiel) is far from the only thing you have to worry about. In my opinion (Ranked from best to worst) this is how the class looks; 1) Dramiel 2) Daredevil 3) Firetail 4) Comet 5) Taranis 6) Claw 7) Crusader As you can see the pirate faction ships dominate this class. Then not to far away is 2 of the best faction navy frigates... Here is a list of ships destroyer class and under that can either neutralize, destroy, or force Dramiel's to disengage. Frigate - Griffin Faction Navy - Firetail Comet Faction Pirate - Dramiel Daredevil Curor Succubus Assault Ship - Ishkur Jaguar Harpy Electronic Attack Ship - Sentinel Kitsune Destroyer - Thrasher Coecer Interdictor - Sabre
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Proxyyyy ... Only you forgot to say that from ships you listed, all ships with 3 mids have to give up dualprop. And coercer lol.
Cearain Caldari ReSlavers	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 20/02/2010 14:59:41 Originally by: Cearain ... Pls, tell me, how would you play it. Because only result of this engagement i can see are 2 dead rifters. And again, you are comparing ships that dont have dualprop and are slower / = much lower tactical possibilities/ with dram. It was already said that there are ships that can kill dram, but try going to 0.0 with your ab+web+scram counter lol. I fly in low sec. Most frigs there fit an ab and a scram. Even if you have a rifter with 400 rolled tungsten plate it will be faster than a dramiel with a single web on it. (assuming the rifter overloads a tech 2 ab and uses a x5 web and assuming the dram overloads a gisti b ab or a corelli c ab) So both frigs simply web and scram it and move in and pound it with emp or phased plasma. Dead dram. If the frigs have to fit mwds becasue they are in 0.0 I couldn't really say. But it would seem to me that the dram could only turn off one of the rifters mwds with a scram. If the rifter that is scrammed has a scram too then it could trun off the mwd of the dram and web it allowing the other mwd rfiter to get right in and web it as well. So it would be double webbed and scrammed. I suppose the dram would kill one of the rifters but I would think it would die in the process. Id rather be in one of the rifters - yep even the one that died.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:47:00 - [66] Originally by: Cearain ... Take one corpmate, take rifters and wait till prozacx go out with his dram /but looks like he does ranii now/. You will get divided /maybe not on jump, since its only rifters/, faster rifter will die to 200dps of rf fusion and warriors first and second will get kited at the edge of scram range just to minimise incoming dps. Also you will learn that webbed dram is faster than plated rifter, but feel free fitting gisti ab to 400rt rifter that aligns like a whale. All that happens only if dram pilot you will engage thinks that mwd is needed in even lowsec. If not, youd end horribly demolished by armor tanked dram with td /and snakes or halos of some elite lowsec dweller/.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2010.02.20 15:52:00 - [67] I don't see how survivability makes something overpowered... Its not like it can kill... well ... much bigger than frigs tbh... Sure it can GTFO pretty well, but thats about it. Within a specific class, some ships are always gunna be better... just because thats the way things are. Assuming you don't want ships to be identical, some of them will always be better for whatever state the rest of the game is in. The dram is a great ship, and it does its job very well. But thats all it is, a very good inty. Still vulnerable to neuts, webs, scramblers, jammers, damps, light drones, painters, light missiles and bad luck. If perfectly flown, the Dram can escape almost anything. It is seldom perfectly flown. Even the best pilot can bounce off a gate/roid or screw up his escape trajectory and accidently get zero transversal at just the wrong time. All it does is do what all the other prestige frigs do, but perhaps a little better. Thats it. Its not muscling in on any other classes role and doesn't do enough DPS to worry really any active or passive tank. So basically, aside from killing other frigs, all it can do is kill buffer fit ships that didn't carry their own light drones and had no friends, and frankly ANYTHING that was too fast or too tough was going to kill them anyway.
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2010.02.20 16:40:00 - [68] How about: [Caracal, Anti Dramiel Gheyness] 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Bay Loading Accelerator I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hobgoblin II x2 ???
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.02.20 17:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Grut The best ship to kill a dram 1v1 in a non lolafit is unarguably another dram.... go figure. Nope, it's a rail Daredevil. DD cant match drams ability to avoid camps etc... so outside 1v1 - no.
Cearain Caldari ReSlavers	Posted - 2010.02.20 17:51:00 - [70] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Cearain ... Take one corpmate, take rifters and wait till prozacx go out with his dram /but looks like he does ranii now/. You will get divided /maybe not on jump, since its only rifters/, faster rifter will die to 200dps of rf fusion and warriors first and second will get kited at the edge of scram range just to minimise incoming dps. Also you will learn that webbed dram is faster than plated rifter, but feel free fitting gisti ab to 400rt rifter that aligns like a whale. The dram would be double webbed and it would die to pvpers of equal skill to the dram pilot. If you want to complain because dram pilots tend to be better pvpers, then I would agree. Amatures learn fast not to take out ships that cost 120 million. This, I believe, is a big reason why drams have a relatively good survival rate. Also I was not fitting a rifter with a gisti ab. I was fitting the rifter with a tech 2 ab. Even with a 400plate it is faster than a webbed dram with a gisti b. It is not a smart dram pilot that takes on 2 rifters pilotted by equal pvpers at once. If the rifters are seperated then yeah you should be able to kill one fast and move on to the next but if its at the same time... better leave them alone. Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Cearain ... All that happens only if dram pilot you will engage thinks that mwd is needed in even lowsec. If not, youd end horribly demolished by armor tanked dram with td /and snakes or halos of some elite lowsec dweller/. 1) Dual prop dram is still helpful in low sec because many t2 frigs and destroyers fit a mwd. Even if you web a mwd t2 or destroyer you won't be faster than it with only an ab. If you scram it you are still within range of its guns. 2) I have my doubts about an ab and td dram but it might be viable. I think the tds cost too much cpu and you would be better off with a web. 3) When you talk about expensive implants that is a different issue than the strength of the dram. Give the rifter pilots 400plates and slaves or snakes as well and the same results. If you want to argue implants are overpowered thats different. I would likely argue the same point though. Slaves cost allot of money. I cant afford them nor can I beat a slaved armor tanked frigate when I'm in a frigate. But I don't begrudge the pilots who can afford them and are willing to risk them in the world of smartbombs etc. Well the
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.02.20 18:57:00 - [71] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist I see dram on scan, convo pilot for 1v1, dock, change to dd, fleet him, warp to him to 0, facemelt. or Im on a solo roam in dd flying through 0.0, till i find target thats willing fight /and there is a chance to kill it without pilot being noob/ i have to travel x jumps and pass y bubblecamps with z number of seboed tacklers /x,y,z depends on region and time/. Choose scenario that matches reality more. Understand now? You have to get to your '1v1' somehow and you have better chance to survive it in dram. Also i bet neither grut and lubomir never had 'arranged 1v1' on mind. Originally by: Cearain ... Yea, my bad, i had snakes on dram fit in eft /i wonder why /, rifter would still be faster. But also im 100% sure that dram pilot will use its speed advantage to get to better position /if rifters will be 15k from each other after the jump, even 15secs is enough for dram to win the dps race, really, rifters are not such a threat to agro one and jump to kill second/. Btw 400rt rifter has really low exp ehp and after killing first, second will be already capped out, so its up to dram pilot if he stays or disengages. My isks are on the dram... And yes, mwd is always good to have, thats why dram is so good. I was talking about your ab+web+scram attitude - so fitted frigs will just die to mwd frigs, dessies and in some cases cruisers and up /there goes ab ishkur, succub, harpy...as dram killers/.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.02.20 19:05:00 - [72] Originally by: drones man Baalghorn with 2 webs and heavy neuts. Have fun instapoping any frig Right. Because you lock them all the time. --
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.02.20 19:13:00 - [73] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: drones man Baalghorn with 2 webs and heavy neuts. Have fun instapoping any frig Right. Because you lock them all the time. Then 2 minutes later the blob arrives to wtfpwn you. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
Trader20	Posted - 2010.02.20 19:44:00 - [74] I jumped into a system to find a 30+ dram camp and I got pwnd. When my corp asked if I needed any help I said don't bother because the only way to counter them is to bring ur own drams/cepters and "dogfight" which is a waste of time imo because it takes more skill and its more fun when ur playing a twitch based game.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.02.21 00:24:00 - [75] Has anyone said Discoship yet? Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Abervest	Posted - 2010.02.21 04:25:00 - [76] Edited by: Abervest on 21/02/2010 04:26:14 Originally by: Kalexander I'll take my Tech3 frig against a dramiel any day.
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2010.02.21 18:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Joe Censored regardless of what many people will say in response to that (who mostly happen to fly Dramiel's coincidentally) And coincidentally the people crying nerf are the people that don't fly drams and die to them in crows/stilettos/poorly fit cruisers.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.02.21 18:31:00 - [78] Not to mention that if they did nerf the dram then whatever ship took over the new top of the list fotm would now be op and zomg must nerf!!!111 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.02.21 20:29:00 - [79] So basically what you *gots are saying is that a smart pilot who knows what to engage and not to engage is overpowered? Are you guys ****ed or something? ___
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.02.21 20:54:00 - [80] Originally by: Grarr Dexx So basically what you *gots are saying is that a smart pilot who knows what to engage and not to engage is overpowered? Are you guys ****ed or something?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.02.21 23:13:00 - [81] Originally by: Grarr Dexx So basically what you *gots are saying is that a smart pilot who knows what to engage and not to engage is overpowered? Are you guys ****ed or something? Not really. More that usually trading off mobility/choice of engagement results in diminished capability in some way. Look at a cloaker, and tell me how many of those can go toe to toe with equivalent ship classes? How about inties? Compared to AFs, they're lower on DPS and slots, but somehow still more popular. The 'problem' is the same as it's always been - ability to disengage at will is worth a lot, and is NOT a good 'bought advantage' as it's always going to be better to spend more isk on the ability to GTFO than it is to invest in a heavier tank, or more DPS.

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