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Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:19:00 - [61] Originally by: Siddy ...please stop whining, and let the devs finish they work for once, k? Agreed. My Phoon was quite pleased with the 2k batch instead of the usual 200 for the same cost - he spits them like theres no tomorrow now. bang
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Siddy ...please stop whining, and let the devs finish they work for once, k? Agreed. My Phoon was quite pleased with the 2k batch instead of the usual 200 for the same cost - he spits them like theres no tomorrow now. bang
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:40:00 - [63] "I did actually mention the megathron does very well in 1v1. I totally blows in PvE without an MWD though." It's not bad with a set of 350 mm rails. The battleship bonus means these guns will hit nearly as hard as mega beams on Apoc, and the extra tracking doesn't hurt, either...
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:40:00 - [64] "I did actually mention the megathron does very well in 1v1. I totally blows in PvE without an MWD though." It's not bad with a set of 350 mm rails. The battleship bonus means these guns will hit nearly as hard as mega beams on Apoc, and the extra tracking doesn't hurt, either...
Alexi Borizkova	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:47:00 - [65] Ok, I'm caldari, and even I will admit the Missile Boats are a bit overpowered. Hell, more than a bit, possibly. And up till now I thought the same of the Thorax's drone bay(until deadspace made that the only thing that makes thorax viable there). But that's the thing, the nerf on missile production has now only served to give the less monetarily advantaged players the ability to use missiles too, and this might be balancing in some respect. The crux of the issue however is that missiles are just too damned good, they really are. The kessie/cara/ferox/raven are some of the besst ships of the game for theri class, and at least to me seem so obviously statistically superior I would be a fool not to use them. That missiles suit my play style is beside the point. But keep in mind, missiles can be shot down, and evaded. Gunfire can only be evaded, has no in the air time, and so forth. Balance is difficult to achieve, and the feast or famine mentality I have seen thus far in eve leads me to pray to whatever dark god that will listen, that missiles are treated mercifully. But deep down, I know that if they are changed, they will have things done to them with the nerf bat that would put Bubba on cell block D to shame.
Alexi Borizkova	Posted - 2004.11.28 02:47:00 - [66] Ok, I'm caldari, and even I will admit the Missile Boats are a bit overpowered. Hell, more than a bit, possibly. And up till now I thought the same of the Thorax's drone bay(until deadspace made that the only thing that makes thorax viable there). But that's the thing, the nerf on missile production has now only served to give the less monetarily advantaged players the ability to use missiles too, and this might be balancing in some respect. The crux of the issue however is that missiles are just too damned good, they really are. The kessie/cara/ferox/raven are some of the besst ships of the game for theri class, and at least to me seem so obviously statistically superior I would be a fool not to use them. That missiles suit my play style is beside the point. But keep in mind, missiles can be shot down, and evaded. Gunfire can only be evaded, has no in the air time, and so forth. Balance is difficult to achieve, and the feast or famine mentality I have seen thus far in eve leads me to pray to whatever dark god that will listen, that missiles are treated mercifully. But deep down, I know that if they are changed, they will have things done to them with the nerf bat that would put Bubba on cell block D to shame.
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2004.11.28 04:06:00 - [67] Missile boats are not overpowered.. It's been discussed 100's of times. Missiles are easiest to counter of all weapons in eve ________________________________________
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2004.11.28 04:06:00 - [68] Missile boats are not overpowered.. It's been discussed 100's of times. Missiles are easiest to counter of all weapons in eve ________________________________________
Cracken	Posted - 2004.11.28 05:33:00 - [69] Edited by: ***en on 28/11/2004 05:46:24 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Oh, look, how am I not surprised at the Caldari portraits defending their precious missiles. I was just flying alongside yet another ship that should never have been created in the first place, the Ferox. It's unbelievable that you can fit TWO oversized AB's and still have grid left (albeit with two RCU's) to fit FIVE heavy launchers AND two medium hybrids. Of course next to all this was a shield booster II and an amplifier which combined with the Ferox' ridiculous resistance bonus makes it pretty much invulnerable, all the while firing 5 heavy missile launchers at its 3317 mps orbit speed. Then again, whatever they did to battlecruiser balance is beyond me, but that wasn't the point of this post. Look, you Raven and Scorp pilots simply cannot deny that your ship is by a huge distance THE best ship for PvP. Period. Minmatar and Gallente battleships are left out of the picture totally, while you see some Amarr ones every once in a while. Deny this and you have obviously no clue what game you're playing. Now, in empire, things were pretty varied. Every ship could deal with NPC's fairly well and people just liked flying some ships. Even though a Raven makes short work of every single mission out there, let alone the hardest of lvl 4 deadspace missions, it was not very profitable. Sure, you go through rats at speeds Minmatarians and Gallentians could never dream of, but most of your profit went down the drain for as replacement for missiles. Now you no longer have a penalty for using the 450 damage torps of death, you have THE best ship for PvP and PvE. Nope, I'm definately not surprised you come here to defend them. Heck, why am I even trying to convince you, you'll just yell 'whiner' at me, even though it's pretty f-cking obvious you won't be seeing a lot of ships OTHER than Caldari missile boats within a few weeks if things are to stay as they are. I just wanted CCP to fix the stupid missiles and missile boats, but as it stands I'd be more than happy to see missiles nerfed totally into the ground like they did with projectiles. It's getting stupid. I'm gonna stick to elite frigs for now until they also nerf oversized AB's at which point 90% of the Eve community will give in an train Caldari ships. Oh ******* booh who cry me a damned river. I hear a whole lot of whinging and not a lot of suggesting ferox was created too be a stepping stone between a cruiser and a bs. what part of "battle cruiser" do you not understand, uber resistances hardly. You ever been wtfpwnd with a size 14 shoe shoved up your ass. Thats what flying s ferox is like when lvl 3 missions start giving it trouble you know something is wrong right? wrong! And don't tell me I don't know how too fit I was shield tanking long before I was ever armor tanking now quit being a whingy self absorbed school girl.
Cracken	Posted - 2004.11.28 05:33:00 - [70] Edited by: ***en on 28/11/2004 05:46:24 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Oh, look, how am I not surprised at the Caldari portraits defending their precious missiles. I was just flying alongside yet another ship that should never have been created in the first place, the Ferox. It's unbelievable that you can fit TWO oversized AB's and still have grid left (albeit with two RCU's) to fit FIVE heavy launchers AND two medium hybrids. Of course next to all this was a shield booster II and an amplifier which combined with the Ferox' ridiculous resistance bonus makes it pretty much invulnerable, all the while firing 5 heavy missile launchers at its 3317 mps orbit speed. Then again, whatever they did to battlecruiser balance is beyond me, but that wasn't the point of this post. Look, you Raven and Scorp pilots simply cannot deny that your ship is by a huge distance THE best ship for PvP. Period. Minmatar and Gallente battleships are left out of the picture totally, while you see some Amarr ones every once in a while. Deny this and you have obviously no clue what game you're playing. Now, in empire, things were pretty varied. Every ship could deal with NPC's fairly well and people just liked flying some ships. Even though a Raven makes short work of every single mission out there, let alone the hardest of lvl 4 deadspace missions, it was not very profitable. Sure, you go through rats at speeds Minmatarians and Gallentians could never dream of, but most of your profit went down the drain for as replacement for missiles. Now you no longer have a penalty for using the 450 damage torps of death, you have THE best ship for PvP and PvE. Nope, I'm definately not surprised you come here to defend them. Heck, why am I even trying to convince you, you'll just yell 'whiner' at me, even though it's pretty f-cking obvious you won't be seeing a lot of ships OTHER than Caldari missile boats within a few weeks if things are to stay as they are. I just wanted CCP to fix the stupid missiles and missile boats, but as it stands I'd be more than happy to see missiles nerfed totally into the ground like they did with projectiles. It's getting stupid. I'm gonna stick to elite frigs for now until they also nerf oversized AB's at which point 90% of the Eve community will give in an train Caldari ships. Oh ******* booh who cry me a damned river. I hear a whole lot of whinging and not a lot of suggesting ferox was created too be a stepping stone between a cruiser and a bs. what part of "battle cruiser" do you not understand, uber resistances hardly. You ever been wtfpwnd with a size 14 shoe shoved up your ass. Thats what flying s ferox is like when lvl 3 missions start giving it trouble you know something is wrong right? wrong! And don't tell me I don't know how too fit I was shield tanking long before I was ever armor tanking now quit being a whingy self absorbed school girl.
Pandora Panda	Posted - 2004.11.28 05:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Diamond Dog Finally Missiles are on par with other ammo's ... It now costs me less isk per second and isk per damage to use missiles over projectiles and hybrids. Hybrids are also blessed with more cap use then lasers, and roughly equivalent damage. Its very strange, I cant understand why anyone uses hybrids anymore (projectiles have been dead for a long time). Quote: And how is the blasterthron crap ?... Because its a gankageddon with a fifth the range, and less damage with equivalent weapons and skills. -------------------------------------------- CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003
Pandora Panda	Posted - 2004.11.28 05:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Diamond Dog Finally Missiles are on par with other ammo's ... It now costs me less isk per second and isk per damage to use missiles over projectiles and hybrids. Hybrids are also blessed with more cap use then lasers, and roughly equivalent damage. Its very strange, I cant understand why anyone uses hybrids anymore (projectiles have been dead for a long time). Quote: And how is the blasterthron crap ?... Because its a gankageddon with a fifth the range, and less damage with equivalent weapons and skills. -------------------------------------------- CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003
Regall	Posted - 2004.11.28 06:35:00 - [73] god I'm so sick of whinny *****es
Regall	Posted - 2004.11.28 06:35:00 - [74] god I'm so sick of whinny *****es
LeMoose	Posted - 2004.11.28 08:15:00 - [75] There sould be one agent runner who is the ruler of all agent runners, and it would be his responsability to inform the other agent runners what ship to use and how to fitt it!!! each month... It is every agent runners driven ambition do be invinsible! CCP will ofcorse try all they can to CONTINUE ballancing the ships & modules for the Agent running community! LONG LIVE SARCASM! ps. don't tell santa I was here.
LeMoose	Posted - 2004.11.28 08:15:00 - [76] There sould be one agent runner who is the ruler of all agent runners, and it would be his responsability to inform the other agent runners what ship to use and how to fitt it!!! each month... It is every agent runners driven ambition do be invinsible! CCP will ofcorse try all they can to CONTINUE ballancing the ships & modules for the Agent running community! LONG LIVE SARCASM! ps. don't tell santa I was here.
djubrica	Posted - 2004.11.28 08:38:00 - [77] Using drones is too cheap! Make drones require ammunition!
djubrica	Posted - 2004.11.28 08:38:00 - [78] Using drones is too cheap! Make drones require ammunition!
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.28 10:17:00 - [79] Edited by: Noriath on 28/11/2004 10:21:00 Make ships that can repair themselves completly in several seconds able to repair drones. How about that? Oh yea, what ever happened to that missile nerf where they do less damage to smaller targets? Instead they have been changed to: - Cost less - Be faster - Intercept targets instead of following them (acording to a post in general discussion) This deserves a big: WTF?! I'm pretty anoyed with the fact that missiles just keep getting better and better even though even before exodus people complained about them being way to convenient a weapon. And the final insult: The only missile defense still requires a launcher hardpoint and even that is very ineffective. This is getting out of hand...
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.28 10:17:00 - [80] Edited by: Noriath on 28/11/2004 10:21:00 Make ships that can repair themselves completly in several seconds able to repair drones. How about that? Oh yea, what ever happened to that missile nerf where they do less damage to smaller targets? Instead they have been changed to: - Cost less - Be faster - Intercept targets instead of following them (acording to a post in general discussion) This deserves a big: WTF?! I'm pretty anoyed with the fact that missiles just keep getting better and better even though even before exodus people complained about them being way to convenient a weapon. And the final insult: The only missile defense still requires a launcher hardpoint and even that is very ineffective. This is getting out of hand...
theRaptor	Posted - 2004.11.28 10:26:00 - [81] Edited by: theRaptor on 28/11/2004 10:31:28 Originally by: Diamond Dog Missile boats are not overpowered.. It's been discussed 100's of times. Missiles are easiest to counter of all weapons in eve No turrets are, you can just damp or jam them. With missiles you have defenders or smartbombs, which do work but are not as effective as damping and jamming. Otherwise please tell me why I see so many scorps and ravens in PvP? Why do I here people ordered over TS to bring scorps and ravens first and long range Geddons and Apocs if they dont have a scorp or a raven. Yes other ships can be effective, but not to the degree of the scorp and raven. When was the last time you saw a non-RP fleet of mainly minmatar ships? And no I am not a bloody missile hater, I am currently training to fly a Raven because I like the look of it (I disliked all the cald cruisers so trained for Gall ships first). But I wish people flew a more diverse selection of ships in PvP. Its similar to how the Blasterax is pretty much the best T1 cruiser so you see 10x more Blasteraxes in PvP then any other cruiser. --------------------------------------------------
theRaptor	Posted - 2004.11.28 10:26:00 - [82] Edited by: theRaptor on 28/11/2004 10:31:28 Originally by: Diamond Dog Missile boats are not overpowered.. It's been discussed 100's of times. Missiles are easiest to counter of all weapons in eve No turrets are, you can just damp or jam them. With missiles you have defenders or smartbombs, which do work but are not as effective as damping and jamming. Otherwise please tell me why I see so many scorps and ravens in PvP? Why do I here people ordered over TS to bring scorps and ravens first and long range Geddons and Apocs if they dont have a scorp or a raven. Yes other ships can be effective, but not to the degree of the scorp and raven. When was the last time you saw a non-RP fleet of mainly minmatar ships? And no I am not a bloody missile hater, I am currently training to fly a Raven because I like the look of it (I disliked all the cald cruisers so trained for Gall ships first). But I wish people flew a more diverse selection of ships in PvP. Its similar to how the Blasterax is pretty much the best T1 cruiser so you see 10x more Blasteraxes in PvP then any other cruiser. --------------------------------------------------
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:03:00 - [83] This myth of Missiles being countered by smartbombs is pretty interesting... - A torpedo moves at 750 m/s - A cruise missile moves at 1600m/s - A large smartbomb has 5000m radius. - A torpedo traverses those 5000m in about 6.7 secondds - A cruise missile traverses those 5000m in about 3.2 seconds. - A large smartbomb recycles every 10 seconds. - A large smartbomb consumes 200 Energy per cycle. Ok, let's take a look at all of those facts. - In order to have airtight defense against torpedos moving at 750m/s you need two well timed large Smartbombs. - Running them continuosly consumes more energy then running a large armor repairer - In order to have airtight defense against torpedos moving at 1600m/s you need three extremly well times large smartbombs. - Running them continuously consumes about as much energy as running two large armor repairers. - Running those smartbombs will make it impossible to fire missiles yourself. - Running those smartbombs right is hard, because they need to be well timed in order to destroy all incoming missiles. - Running those smartbombs will make it impossible for you to launch drones. - Running those smartbombs is risky in secure space. - Running those smartbombs might damage allied ships. - Running those smartbombs requires highslots, making it hard to have high damage output with guns yourself. Ok, it's possible to be pretty much invoulnerable to missiles by using smartbombs, but the disadvantages are unproportionally great. Plus if you acctually install a setup like this you won't be able to kill the missile user anymore if they don't get close enough for the smarties to acctually hit them. Also with such a setup your chances to survive against an Apoc or Geddon officially dropped to 0.
Noriath	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:03:00 - [84] This myth of Missiles being countered by smartbombs is pretty interesting... - A torpedo moves at 750 m/s - A cruise missile moves at 1600m/s - A large smartbomb has 5000m radius. - A torpedo traverses those 5000m in about 6.7 secondds - A cruise missile traverses those 5000m in about 3.2 seconds. - A large smartbomb recycles every 10 seconds. - A large smartbomb consumes 200 Energy per cycle. Ok, let's take a look at all of those facts. - In order to have airtight defense against torpedos moving at 750m/s you need two well timed large Smartbombs. - Running them continuosly consumes more energy then running a large armor repairer - In order to have airtight defense against torpedos moving at 1600m/s you need three extremly well times large smartbombs. - Running them continuously consumes about as much energy as running two large armor repairers. - Running those smartbombs will make it impossible to fire missiles yourself. - Running those smartbombs right is hard, because they need to be well timed in order to destroy all incoming missiles. - Running those smartbombs will make it impossible for you to launch drones. - Running those smartbombs is risky in secure space. - Running those smartbombs might damage allied ships. - Running those smartbombs requires highslots, making it hard to have high damage output with guns yourself. Ok, it's possible to be pretty much invoulnerable to missiles by using smartbombs, but the disadvantages are unproportionally great. Plus if you acctually install a setup like this you won't be able to kill the missile user anymore if they don't get close enough for the smarties to acctually hit them. Also with such a setup your chances to survive against an Apoc or Geddon officially dropped to 0.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:46:00 - [85] Minus 355m-455m (ship sig radius + torp/cruise detonation prox) = 4645-4545m - it reminds me the 'ol space invaders arcade but without the lag. Btw, defenders are still bugged (ship slowdown upon launch). bang
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:46:00 - [86] Minus 355m-455m (ship sig radius + torp/cruise detonation prox) = 4645-4545m - it reminds me the 'ol space invaders arcade but without the lag. Btw, defenders are still bugged (ship slowdown upon launch). bang
JoCool	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:49:00 - [87] Edited by: JoCool on 28/11/2004 11:52:39 Finally balanced missile costs! Oh joy how long missile users waited for this. Doesn't make them better in PvP, just more cost effective for PvE. A Raven is still no proper miner though. To Noriath and your wisdom of smartbombs. Could you imagine you are not supposed to run two smartbombs continously to kill all incoming enemy missiles? Can we do the same for turrets? Can we intercept 4/6 of enemy gunshots with one single highslot module? You can do that to our Torps, with a single smartbomb.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:49:00 - [88] Edited by: JoCool on 28/11/2004 11:52:39 Finally balanced missile costs! Oh joy how long missile users waited for this. Doesn't make them better in PvP, just more cost effective for PvE. A Raven is still no proper miner though. To Noriath and your wisdom of smartbombs. Could you imagine you are not supposed to run two smartbombs continously to kill all incoming enemy missiles? Can we do the same for turrets? Can we intercept 4/6 of enemy gunshots with one single highslot module? You can do that to our Torps, with a single smartbomb.
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:54:00 - [89] Edited by: Mishi Bangbang on 28/11/2004 11:57:14 Transversal movements can reduce the ammount of damage caused by turrets. Projectiles users know this very well. bang
Mishi Bangbang	Posted - 2004.11.28 11:54:00 - [90] Edited by: Mishi Bangbang on 28/11/2004 11:57:14 Transversal movements can reduce the ammount of damage caused by turrets. Projectiles users know this very well. bang

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