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Is ECM fair in pvp?

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Mara Abraham Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.23 18:56:00 - [1] Greetings: An ex corp mate challenged me to a t1 frigate dual using just t1 fittings. He went with his rifter; and I picked a griffin. I won as he ran from the field (he had enough warp core stabilizers to neutralize my warp scrambler); and he's complaining that I cheated and did not fight fair. If the dual is agreed that we can destroy the other parties ship (and that means if I lose, my ship is gone), then as long as I'm sticking to the pre-communicated rules -- t1, regular race, frigate, t1 fittings, am I cheating by using ecm? Or if you are dueling, is it one of the things everyone should know (whether communicated or not) that using ecm is unfair and cheating? Thank you. P.S. The sad part is that I made a number of mistakes in the duel. I did not chain the ecm modules (fired both off); and, thought they would last 3 minutes if overheated, and overheated from the start. Both ecm modules burnt out along with my afterburner just a second or so before he ran away (I still don't know why as he had at least 50% shields, 100% armor, and 100% structure).
Kijo Rikki Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:03:00 - [2] griffin vs rifter is a boring fight, i've found i can permajam one with one module. Sadly, your one (maybe two) missle launchers just wont break a rifter tank. Whether its fair is up to you and the other guy.Perhaps it shouldhave been discussed beforehand, but IMO its part of the game, its a t1 frig. > WHILE SIG<AWESOME DO LOOP there is no escape from my crappy sig.
ROXGenghis	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:09:00 - [3] I don't think someone who fits warp core stabs for PVP has a right to complain about anything.
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:10:00 - [4] Regarding the topic, ECM is softcore compared to what WoW labels as CC or incapacitation. ECM is not a stun and if you flee you do not lose anything but newbie pride. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude. True amarr tank shields!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:32:00 - [5] who cares what is fair. all about the winnings!
Abbot Laarkin Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Mara Abraham I won as he ran from the field (he had enough warp core stabilizers to neutralize my warp scrambler); and he's complaining that I cheated and did not fight fair. As mentioned, your friend has no right to complain tbh. Seems he deliberately fit to lose a fight, and is now surprised that he did? Originally by: Mara Abraham If the dual is agreed that we can destroy the other parties ship (and that means if I lose, my ship is gone), then as long as I'm sticking to the pre-communicated rules -- t1, regular race, frigate, t1 fittings, am I cheating by using ecm? This is as fair as it gets. You fit your chosen ship to take advantage of it's strengths and it worked. Good for you. This is more than your friend did. Griffin v rifter is unlikely to be a very interesting fight tbh, but a good learning experience for your friend as to what is likely to happen if he engages one in "real" pvp. ---- Originally by: Sir Carnage Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37? I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
Serend Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:23:00 - [7] A lot of people can't quite seem to grasp that there is more to PvP than Orbit>Scram>F1F2F3F4. And when they encounter ECM they cry foul. ECM might make for a boring fight on the Rifter pilot's part, but if you take the whole business of PvP seriously, then you have to allow for it, imho. A Griffin will pop in 2 volleys from a Rifter, at best. What's he to do? Use his strengths to protect himself, even if it means the Rifter runs away unharmed. And yes, anybody who uses WCS in PvP sounds silly when he complains about ECM (or anything else). Serend
tagen young	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:33:00 - [8] Originally by: ROXGenghis I don't think someone who fits warp core stabs for PVP has a right to complain about anything. he was complaining Thought for a second i was back in WOW with all the stealthing is cheating rogue, healing is cheating priest, OMG hunter you used your pet.
Veritaal	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:48:00 - [9] Originally by: ROXGenghis I don't think someone who fits warp core stabs for PVP has a right to complain about anything. This. Fitting WCS says to me "I don't think I can win, so I am planning my escape route ahead of time!" Fit a scrambler instead of a disruptor next time.
dtyk	Posted - 2010.02.23 20:50:00 - [10] ECM is as far as any EWAR. Neuts are countered by using capless modules or with cap boosters, ECM is countered with ECCM, FoF missiles or drones. There are viable counters against it, so it's fair.

Zetakya	Posted - 2010.02.23 23:10:00 - [11] Edited by: Zetakya on 23/02/2010 23:12:35 ECM generally makes for boring 1v1, interesting 5v5, and dead in seconds in BloBvBloB But it's not cheating. However, it is as unlikely to win a 1v1 as a WCS-fit is. In a 1v1 fight, both of you were flying "can't lose the ship" fits.
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.02.24 01:57:00 - [12] Edited by: TraininVain on 24/02/2010 01:57:01 If you didn't specify no ECM in the rules of your fight then it's not cheating. It is pretty lame and frustrating though because killing a permajammed ship is not really a fight. Most 1vs1's or tournies I have been in exclude it.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.24 09:35:00 - [13] If it's within the gamerules it's fair and you'd do well to make use of any mechanics, strategy, module or whatever that will give you an advantage. People crying foul mostly comes from them not being able to counter you. If it's a 1v1/tournament there will be the added restrictions based on rules, but if a certain strategy/module isn't actively ruled out beforehand it's fair game. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.24 11:32:00 - [14] Your friend is a scrub. Make sure to tell him that. _______________________ We come for our people!
Fastbikkel T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2010.02.24 11:59:00 - [15] In pvp there is no such thing as wondering if something is fair or not. Fight on your own terms, screw the other guy. -If the enemy is in range, so are you-
Starnap Wham.	Posted - 2010.02.24 12:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Starnap on 24/02/2010 12:39:37 he said 'fair' (giggles)
dtyk	Posted - 2010.02.24 13:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Marko Riva People crying foul mostly comes from them not being able to counter you. There are counters for everything. There's a difference between able and willing.
Vintorez Kosakami Caldari Deviance Cartel	Posted - 2010.02.24 14:05:00 - [18] Originally by: foksieloy Your friend is a scrub. Make sure to tell him that. bit offtopic, but by the notion of a scrub, would you assume that if an opponent were to use a log off tactic to draw you out against some bate, and you fell prey to such a log off tactic, would you yourself become a scrub or simply your opponent is a cheat using game mechanics against you? the tactic is not looked highly upon yet it still exists within the game. personally i would not fall prey to such a bate tactic as i would predict it. Their is no bug, its a feature!!!
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.24 14:48:00 - [19] Originally by: dtyk Originally by: Marko Riva People crying foul mostly comes from them not being able to counter you. There are counters for everything. There's a difference between able and willing. That's my point :) ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Krikx Forgotten Gods Fear Th3 Vampires	Posted - 2010.02.24 16:48:00 - [20] I say just for him ***ing...next time bring an inty with 2 scramblers and lock him down and pop him, then pod him too. I hate it when people *** about "not fair". If "t1 frigate dual using just t1 fittings" was agreed upon then anything under those categorys are fair play. Anyone that brings a WCS to a t1 frig fight is bound to fail anyways so just walk away from it knowing you saved yourself the hassel of what should have been an never ending fight.

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.02.24 18:05:00 - [21] Winning by making the opponent yawn him-self to death is not a victory I would want on my record. I am willing to bet he had exactly zero stabs fitted and simply got to 9+ km (you lost speed as your AB died, remember?) and went to take a nap after you made him drowsy with the thumb-twiddle "tactic". ECM is fair as fair things go, but its lame as nothing else .. especially as sizes (gangs and hulls) decrease.
Errtan	Posted - 2010.02.24 18:50:00 - [22] lol.. "fair".. "fair" and "EVE" dont work together, you win however you can or else the other side will.
Mara Abraham Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.24 20:59:00 - [23] Greetings: He admitted after the fight that he had a warp core stablizer. From my perspective, if I'm going into a duel where the only rule is all t1 and no podding that means anything that fits into the that criteria is fair. The sad part is that had he not ran when he was around 50% shields, he would have noticed I burnt off my afterburner, ecm is not running, etc. and could have taken me down in seconds. Thank you.
bunny foofoofoo	Posted - 2010.02.24 22:00:00 - [24] You are able to fit against ECM, correct?
caboaddict	Posted - 2010.02.25 00:32:00 - [25] tl;dr All is fair in love and war The fact that your corpmate did not prohibit ECM as a condition of the duel is his problem. The fact is he thought he had the uber fit that'd pwn you and when you foiled his plan he threw a fit and stormed off. tell him to HTFU and learn to pvp. EVE is a mean cruel ***** and if you can't hack it, give me your stuff and emo rage quit.
bellaren Caldari Maximatics Inc	Posted - 2010.02.25 01:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Vintorez Kosakami would you assume that if an opponent were to use a log off tactic to draw you out against some bate, and you fell prey to such a log off tactic, would you yourself become a scrub or simply your opponent is a cheat using game mechanics against you? Scrub wouldn't come into it. I got outplayed by a tactic that I dislike, however is still a legitimate tactic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SHH I'm pretending to be a girl, don't tell anyone. lolsig
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.25 07:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Vintorez Kosakami and you fell prey to such a log off tactic, would you yourself become a scrub or simply your opponent is a cheat using game mechanics against you? If you fell for the tactic, you are not a scrub. If you throw a tantrum and claim "NO FAIR I AS NOT EXCPECTING HALP PLIZ" then you are. If on the other hand you learn from the experience, and not fall for it the second time, no problem. Originally by: Vintorez Kosakami the tactic is not looked highly upon yet it still exists within the game. How people look at the tactic has nothing to do with who stays alive and who dies. Do note that a lot of people consider "your image" as a player more important than your K/D ration, so if you care for "your image" you will not use such tactics. Originally by: Vintorez Kosakami personally i would not fall prey to such a bate tactic as i would predict it. good for you, so you learned. _______________________ We come for our people!
Kazacy Caldari Cugir SA - Arms FACTORY	Posted - 2010.02.25 15:35:00 - [28] This is EVE. Anything is fair is wrong.
Van PokerAlho	Posted - 2010.02.25 16:13:00 - [29] ecm is as fair as anything else, when you make an agreement for a fight, everything must be specified or its ok to use. I laught when people start complaining about 1vs1 dishonoured because "he left the battle, I was winning". So if you dont bring a point or enough modules combination to avoid enemy fleeing, you are maximizing your fit for tank or whatever, so you pay it with not being capable to hold enemy in the field until it pops. Everything inside the core rules of eve is fair.
Mutnin Amarr Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.02.25 17:16:00 - [30] Edited by: Mutnin on 25/02/2010 17:17:55 ECM is fair play IMO despite the fact I really hate it. My biggest gripe with ECM is it's all chance based. This means even if I fit ECCM mods on my ship to counter ECM, I'm still likely to be jammed and very possibly still get perma jammed. A week or so ago I fought a Navy Vexor pair up with a Kitsune. I was in a BC and fitted 2 T2 ECCM's to counter the Kitsune and he still managed to perma jam me, despite the fact I had 85 sensor strength with both ECCM's over heated. The worst part was the guy was using multi spec's for ECM, so it's not like he just happened to be fitted with the proper racial ECM mods for my ship. Another example of bad usage of chance base, is ECM drones.. They are ******ly over powered. First off ECCM mods are useless against drones and 5 ECM 300's can almost perma jam a BC. This to me says that ECM with a chance based jamming system, is not really working as intended. It should be based of sensor strength, which would make fitting ECCM's all part of your strategy. Chance based is just a very dumb system IMO.



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