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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:40:00 -
[1]
I admit, I made a mistake.
Almost exactly 3 years ago, I was urging CCP to hire a few economists because, well, CCP seemed to be incapable of handling their own game's economy alone.
Oh boy, was I wrong about how much good that will do...
A few months later, lo and behold, they hired an economist. Coincidence ? Who knows.
Let's say it might have been a case of thinking alike, or whatever, I couldn't possibly take all the credit for that, but I will TAKE SOME OF THE BLAME either way.
What followed after "CCP Dr.EyjoG" was brought on board can best be described as a series of economic disasters, in terms of the game's economic stability.
If he had any hand in all of it, or it would have happened just as well without him being there, or if only a part of them were his ideas, I can't possibly know.
What I *do* know for sure is that at least partially, it was his personal hand that played a big role in it all.
AND ALL OF THAT WAS BECAUSE HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO TREAT THE GAME'S ECONOMY, REGARDING IT AS A SIMULATION OF A REAL ECONOMY, WITHOUT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCES.
The series of QENs that are the only visible output of this economist are full of instances where that particular ignorance of the game's economy peculiarities really shines through, in every one of them.
Not just that, but he also barely participates in forum talks (you can count his posts in 2++ years on the digits of your hands and feet), and if I am not mistaking, he doesn't even actually play the game.
How can you possibly expect such a person to ever give any "sane" feedback ?
That man does NOT belong in your team, not even as a minor advisor in anything that's related to the game's economy.
You either strap him to an office chair and force him to PLAY the side of the game he's supposed to help with, and make it mandatory for him to participate in forum discussions... OR JUST FREAKING FIRE HIM ALREADY.
He's doing more harm than good right now.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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SlayerOfArgus
Gallente
The Industrial Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:41:00 -
[2]
First
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Gunnanmon
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:43:00 -
[3]
2nd
Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Alchemist's Alt
Gallente
Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:44:00 -
[4]
You guys are mistaken im always FIRST!!
FIRST!! |
Paasio Hisokanen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:46:00 -
[5]
Agreed.
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Amanda Mor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:50:00 -
[6]
Akita, can you enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong with the economy that has you so upset? I'm genuinely curious; I thought the economy stuff pretty much took care of itself, no?
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I'm not an alt. Oh wait, yes I am. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:54:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Amanda Mor
Akita, can you enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong with the economy that has you so upset? I'm genuinely curious; I thought the economy stuff pretty much took care of itself, no?
Warning, incoming essays!
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Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.02.24 16:56:00 -
[8]
Some content would be nice with your words.
~
Soar Like a Penguin |
SlayerOfArgus
Gallente
The Industrial Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:01:00 -
[9]
I'm sure it is coming within a few minutes. Just give him time.
/makes a sandwich
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Aarin Wrath
Caldari
Dominion Strategic
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:03:00 -
[10]
Some content ... maybe? 
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:07:00 -
[11]
Boy I'm glad we have virtual economy experts like this on hand, my fake money was feeling worried for a second.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr
Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:08:00 -
[12]
Wow, a rickety furniture crafter who moonlights as an online 'pump and dump' market manipulator with a nice side scam going calling out someone with a doctorate degree in economics and access to actual real game statistics....
Gee I wonder who I would go with. Then again, akita's scamming did allow me to make mountains of isk....
Some words of advice though - you should probably learn to count and get some basic math skills first before you go challenge 'educated people'....
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Cat o'Ninetails
Rancer Defence League
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:09:00 -
[13]
I think I read somewhere that Dr.EyjoG and Hilmar were at school together or something, and when the Dr had done his degree in rhode island or somewhere - Hilmar offered him the job lol so maybe not hiring an ecomonomist and more like "hey i got a sweet gig for ya buddy, lol"
Though even i recognise the purpose in having number-crunchers, even Rancer Defence League has an admin assistant.
xx
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Epicbeardman
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:10:00 -
[14]
First page.
Also, I have no idea what's going on. |
Toraltian2
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:11:00 -
[15]
OP Fails due to:
1 - Did not actually state problem. OP may have assumed everyone agreed or is trolling.
2 - OP does not have access to all market data. The economist on CCP's side does. I'm pretty sure the person who has access to the data on every transaction in the game has a more informed opinion than the OP.
3 - OP assumes market fluctuations aren't corrections caused by other problems that were fixed (macro mission runners/miners)...
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:12:00 -
[16]
oh boy, OH BOY!
Akita T raging on the forums about CCP economist
This is one happy day, isn't it? 
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Amanda Mor
Akita, can you enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong with the economy that has you so upset? I'm genuinely curious; I thought the economy stuff pretty much took care of itself, no?
Highlighting just some of it...
The oldest (and still worsening) thing would be mining - lowsec ores have steadily dropped in relative value compared to highsec ores, to the point where now most highsec ores are worth MORE than most lowsec ores (when "normality" would have been if most lowsec ores would have been noticeably better than all highsec ores), and almost the same thing can be said about 0.0 ores vs other ores.
Each and every measure taken regarding this issue (especially those Dr.EyjoG was a big influence) have resulted in a WORSENING of the situation, each and every time.
I'm talking about his inability to comprehend something as simple as the concept of the "bottom for the mineral basket" granted by platinum insurance payouts, and the CONSEQUENCES of that bottom on one hand, and the changes to mineral sources on the other.
Pretty old too, the "thing" with rigs and salvage components. It "only" took them a couple of years to do the thing we have been suggesting from the very start, namely introduce rigs as SIZED items. However, the balancing of component drops is still sorely lacking, especially for circuits. As for the OTHER thing, the creation of T2 salvage from T1 salvage (or another source of T2 salvage, like, say, random drop chances from regular wrecks), another thing suggested from the get-go, we still don't have that.
Nobody's really complaining about this because overall, if you "work" it long enough, you get more or less the same cash from T1 salvage (and whoever works in areas with T2 salvage is overjoyed they get T2 salvage, so, meh)... except if you're shooting Guristas, then you're out of luck, most of it is worthless.
What was pre-launch hailed as a "cheap way to TWEAK your ship" is still just an expensive way to ENHANCE it.
Closer to the present, the introduction of w-space and T3... and the pathetic balancing of drops and resources required for the T3 manufacturing chains. There was basically next to zero thought put into balancing potential bottlenecks, and all adjustments made were so heavy-handed that instead of actually balancing them, you got a jerk from one bottleneck to another.
T3 was hailed as a versatile alternative to T2, less potent but requiring less skill training. Well, after a pretty long while at relatively stable prices (AFTER several heavy tweaks) it's not really a feasible alternative, financially speaking... even in some cases, performance-wise, it's actually better than some T2 alternatives.
For both of the above, the saving grace was always the fact that the initial intention was also skewed in implementation, so the added cost doesn't feel that painfully.
The point however is that, while MOST people that have any idea how the economy of EVE works (and by the way, the prediction accuracy is measured in ISK EARNED here) saw everything coming from a mile away, CCP did not, and at least partially, Dr.EyjoG was supposed to do exactly that - warn and advise them of what would happen.
He has consistently failed to do that.
The newest (and we haven't really been hit by it in full force yet) would be the T2 component reshuffle, there's a (now 34-page) thread about it over in MD, started a good while BEFORE it actually happened.
It was one of those "everybody could see it coming", but apparently, Dr.EyjoG couldn't... and still can't, if you're reading the latest QEN.
You know, just to give you an idea of what I mean.
True, you could argue that Dr.EyjoG did warn and/or advise CCP to do things better, but then why are all QENs seeping with ignorance towards things that a rookie trader/industrialist learns about fast enough on his own ?
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Thuranni
Eldjotnar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:14:00 -
[18]
This post would be more worthwhile if you stated what some of these terrible economic catastrophes which have caused you so much distress actually are.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:15:00 -
[19]
While there will always be a few kinks in the economic road, I see an economy that works very well over all. It is above all stable, something that is very difficult give the disruptive economic shocks introduced a few times each year and something very few MMOG ever achieve.
The option to
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Alchemist's Alt
Gallente
Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
Hi Cat here
I think I read somewhere that Dr.EyjoG and Hilmar were at school together or something, and when the Dr had done his degree in rhode island or somewhere - Hilmar offered him the job lol so maybe not hiring an ecomonomist and more like "hey i got a sweet gig for ya buddy, lol"
Though even i recognise the purpose in having number-crunchers, even Rancer Defence League has an admin assistant.
xx
fixed ;)
FIRST!! |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:19:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 17:23:51
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
I see an economy that works very well over all.
It can't possibly NOT work 
It's player-driven (as in, the engine and wheels, not the driver) so it will reach an equilibrium eventually either way.
The point is, Dr.EyjoG was the one responsable for making it work BETTER.
He instead did things (or just stood by while things happened) that made it work WORSE.
All of it because he has no clue how the game economy really works and thinks a RL-economist-degree is all he would ever possibly need.
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
I would like to see the economist become involved in the discussion, but I expect you to back up your position.
That's almost half of what I ask - for him to become INVOLVED in the game and in the forums, talk to us.
I don't expect him to see him post in here, nor in MD.
On the off-chance he would actually post in either this thread or anywhere in the MD forum, I seriously don't expect to see him enter a discussion.
And that's really the problem.
From a "MD regular" perspective, he SEEMS completely clueless about EVE.
We have invited him repeatedly to chat with us there, he would not even dignify that with a "no time, sorry" answer.
Figures...
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:22:00 -
[22]
How do you measure better, dearie?
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CCP Shadow
Caldari
C C P
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:24:00 -
[23]
Spam comments removed. Pls. stick to the topic rather than vying for ZOMG BEING FIRST IN A POST. Thanks.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: AdmiralJohn
How do you measure better, dearie?
Let's see...
If game design says that their intention is to make it so that "highsec ore is worth least, lowsec ore is worth a bit more, 0.0 ore is worth most", then I expect "better" to be closer to that, while "worse" to be something like we have now.
If game design says that their intention is to make it so that "there is no single huge passive income source/point in moon-mining, instead have it distributed much more evenly", then I expect "better" to be when the least valuable and most valuable moon mineral are relatively close together in price, while "worse" to be the situation we have been experiencing and WILL experience again later as stockpiles of "old worthless" materials slowly get depleted.
And so on and so forth.
That's how I measure "better".
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:41:00 -
[25]
To be honest if you're so good with economies I say you play real-life for a bit and get my savings account up to snuff.
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T
"Once upon a time, when Jaspet was quite valuable, and Veldspar nearly worthless, there were plenty of miners in lowsec."
Does that sound like a fairytale to you ? Well, it's sadly a TRUE story.
The lowsec ore value issue is the main reason lowsec is far less populated nowadays (as a percentage of the population) compared to how it used to be before any of the Doc.E.G.-assisted changes completely made lowsec mining kick the bucket profitability-wise.
OH damn, now i have to run in the battlefield naked again :(
The jaspet tale was true for a much less populated space, where encounters with other players were fairly rarer than it is nowdays. that's the whole point of "mining in low-sec in profitable no more". ok, the resource rebalance totally screwed that up, but you can't really blame it all on EG (ok you can, but you shouldn't) as that would ahve happened ANYWAY, even if in a rather smaller scale. overpopulation tends to drive people from less secure places to either end of the gaussian bell, empire or 0.0
But now this might get interesting. shall we discuss on how CCP screwed up the salvage balancing? i am very curious on your current suggestions on how to balance it
(i'm too lazy to browse MD :( )
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:44:00 -
[27]
Without having inside knowledge, you can hardly point to changes made to the game and say "it was him and he alone!", but I can definitely comment and what he has publicized in form of QENs and his video appearances. It is underwhelming, to say the least. Most of the information provided is a mere rehash of what can already be obtained in-game, there is a portion of interesting but mostly useless facts, and finally there is sliver of "good stuff", but it merely scratches the surface. That by itself does not constitute fail, it's just sad that QENs only realize a fraction of their potential, but then time and again we are faced with the complete lack of understanding about some of the most basic mechanics of the eve economy. Finally, the good Dr. himself said that he didn't play the game, and by the looks of it he also wasn't interested in filling any knowledge gap. From what he wrote on his very first blog it seems to me he has no full time employment at CCP, it sounded more like a 30% job.
In the comments for every QEN plenty of suggestions were made about how to make them much more awesome and actually useful. But that would require the Dr. to dive much deeper into eve than what he has done so far. From the top of my head I could think of a handful of MD regulars that would do a better job of making QENs and steering eves economy.
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Mr Ignitious
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: AdmiralJohn
To be honest if you're so good with economies I say you play real-life for a bit and get my savings account up to snuff.
Unfortunately IRL there are no golems/NM/CNR's and lvl 4 to summon money out of.
As I understand it anyway some of this mining issue is due to loot drops from missions. Too much ore is being procured from rats in high sec missions as opposed to mining in low sec.
I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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RJ Nobel
Nobel Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:45:00 -
[29]
We don't know what Dr. EyjoG's job duties are, so we're in no position to judge his performance. It would be much better to simply say that the QEN's are terrible and should be improved. Oddly enough, Dr. EyjoG specifically requested feedback on the latest QEN so that they could improve future versions.
As far as the economy and CCP: if it's a player-driven economy, shouldn't PLAYER analysis trump CCP analysis? As I see it, if the players are producing threadnaughts full of economic discussion, and CCP is simply along for the ride, then the market is functioning correctly. What would have happened if Dr. EyjoG had filled the QEN with detailed market theory and trend speculation? The lemmings would stampede to reinforce whatever conclusions the Dr. made.
I'd like to see more hard data from CCP in the QEN's, but please leave the economic analysis to the players.
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Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.02.24 17:49:00 -
[30]
So according to this the economy is broken because of where people choose to mine.
~
Soar Like a Penguin |
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