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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Alex V0X2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:06:00 -
[61]
Tbh CCP get Akita for the job! Imagine the 1GB QEN pdfs  
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King Dave
The Asha'man
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:06:00 -
[62]
The economy is working fine...
I <3 ens xox
"Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp" |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:08:00 -
[63]
 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Akita, the problem (more specifically YOUR problem) is fundamentally more inolving than what you make it seem. Before fixing these 'problems', before sending miners and PVE'ers to lo/null sec (which is pretty much the core of your rant) you need to fix the imbalances that are keeping them in hi sec. And I'm not just talking about nerfing them to hell ( ).
Considering that I _am_ one of those legendary carebears that don't bother leaving highsec anymore (this character anyway), and considering that my whole argument was (indirectly) about fixing the imbalances (i.e. risk/reward ratios) that keep characters like my main in highsec, you're kind of preaching to the choir.
Of course you don't "force" people into lowsec/0.0 - you make it so they WANT to go to lowsec/0.0 !
And how exactly do you do that ? Do you reduce the risk ? HELL NO ! You increase the rewards !
But when you increase rewards, you have to take into account how those increased rewards will affect the price of the related assets, and how rewards will naturally drop if you don't change the system so that those increased rewards DO NOT drop heavily just because they exist.
Quote:
So, provide a sensible solution that won't screw a great protion of the population and they (CCP) may actually lend you an ear :)
Nope, they wouldn't.
Mark that the linked thread is actually a much newer one, the initial form of the idea is from mid-2007.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Jonas Oneida
Caldari
Independent Galactic Network
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Arec Bardwin
Originally by: Jonas Oneida
The beauty of Eve's economy is that every aspect of it is determined and controlled by player input.
Within the framework provided by CCP, such as drop rates, npc orders, insurance and general availability of resources.
Yes Arec, that is correct.
A bucket of water would just be a puddle if it wasn't for one vital ingredient!
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Benri Konpaku
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:14:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 24/02/2010 19:15:07
Hi.
Eh... don't mind me, nothing to see here. I just wanted to leave this little link in a safe spot because I didn't want to carry it with me and risk losing it if I got ganked in the next thread.
EVE Online Fanfest 2009 - The Economy
Snipa! |
Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:17:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Kitimortoa on 24/02/2010 19:19:47
Originally by: Amanda Mor
Akita, can you enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong with the economy that has you so upset? I'm genuinely curious; I thought the economy stuff pretty much took care of itself, no?
TL;DR version of what he said is...
The economy isn't exactly how I want it to be, therefore it's all screwed up because I'm the only person living on this planet that should decide how the EVE economy should run.
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Swiftgaze
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:19:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 24/02/2010 19:21:31
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:25:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 19:26:33
Originally by: Kitimortoa
Originally by: Amanda Mor
Akita, can you enlighten me as to what exactly is wrong with the economy that has you so upset? I'm genuinely curious; I thought the economy stuff pretty much took care of itself, no?
TL;DR version of what he said is...
The economy isn't exactly how I want it to be, therefore it's all screwed up because I'm the only person living on this planet that should decide how the EVE economy should run.
No, it's more like "the economy it's not working how it's SUPPOSED to, as generally desired by CCP, because the people that should make the necessary changes are either incapable of determining what those changes should be or are incapable of implementing them".
It's no secret that CCP's desire is to have lowsec be more attractive than highsec, but that has no longer been the case for YEARS. They intended to make it better, but instead, they made it worse. Exactly the same story with 0.0. Even moreso with wormholes.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Swiftgaze
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:25:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 24/02/2010 19:25:23
Originally by: Paknac Queltel
Originally by: Swiftgaze
The question was whether you would think or not think that playing in Eve's economy or not is a binary choice or not. That is a binary question in itself, and you chose OTHER. This thread just died for the second time due to intellectual checkmate.
The question you ask is binary, while it's about something nonbinary. Therefore, your question poses a false dilemma. You're trying to bind Akita to an extreme, when the answer could've been, for example, "not sure", which doesn't match the implications of either answer. Therefore, it's also a loaded question.
Have you stopped beating your slaves yet?
...Hint: If he does NOT think that you either participate in the economy or not and that someone can participate more or less, than the tick must be set at "No".
And the log out button is to your left. Bai.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Akita T
...Of course you don't "force" people into lowsec/0.0 - you make it so they WANT to go to lowsec/0.0 !
And how exactly do you do that ? Do you reduce the risk ? HELL NO ! You increase the rewards !...
This is where we differ in opinions, for the most part. As it stands lo sec is a death trap. No matter how much better the rewards are in lo sec over hi sec (and by the way, THEY ARE) if you spend more time trying not to die than being productive you've completely lost the point of being in lo sec in the first place.
Because of its residents lo sec has become a punchline to a bad joke that everyone knows the ending to. Yes, the carat's been mounted on the stick and sprinkled with a bit of gold. And yes, it looks enticing, but it only leads to an isk pit. So really, you can mount a diamond on the end of the stick, but the bulk of players will not be falling for that one again. Fix the risk and we may have a better outcome.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Paknac Queltel
Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:27:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Swiftgaze
Edited by: Swiftgaze on 24/02/2010 19:25:23
Originally by: Paknac Queltel
Originally by: Swiftgaze
The question was whether you would think or not think that playing in Eve's economy or not is a binary choice or not. That is a binary question in itself, and you chose OTHER. This thread just died for the second time due to intellectual checkmate.
The question you ask is binary, while it's about something nonbinary. Therefore, your question poses a false dilemma. You're trying to bind Akita to an extreme, when the answer could've been, for example, "not sure", which doesn't match the implications of either answer. Therefore, it's also a loaded question.
Have you stopped beating your slaves yet?
...Hint: If he does NOT think that you either participate in the economy or not and that someone can participate more or less, than the tick must be set at "No".
And the log out button is to your left. Bai.
No seriously, have you stopped beating your slaves yet? Yes or no?
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:29:00 -
[72]
You can slam Akita as much as you want, the fact remains that some of the statements in the QENs reveal a huge lack of knowledge and understanding. That alone already legitimizes Akitas rant.
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Oddymandius
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Akita T
What followed after "CCP Dr.EyjoG" was brought on board can best be described as a series of economic disasters, in terms of the game's economic stability.
Icelandic economists.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:31:00 -
[74]
To me, it's a mystery why CCP hired Dr. EyjoG - the "analysis" in the QENs is 90% descriptive and could as well be done by a moderately skilled economics undergrad student (at my university very similar stuff is done by undergrads who get hired to assist the professors & PhD students in their research) - cobbling up a few chained price indices hardly requires a PhD.
The part that would warrant hiring someone with this level of qualification (which probably corresponds to a competitive level of payment) would be modeling & forecasting.
Yet in terms of "abstract" macroeconomic models all we have so far seen are a few trivial statements about "ISK sinks/faucets" (remember that "circular flow of money" graphic in the first or second chapter of most macro textbooks?).
And if there exist any (macro- and microeconomic) forecasting models they are - as Akita noticed - either pretty useless or CCP does not pay any attention to their results. In any case the community hasn't seen any sign of them so far.
Dr. EyjoG is in a position that would be a wet dream to most RL economists - he has access to near-complete information about the economic state of the game at any point of time and - if game design listens - can actually do something that would resemble experimental macro in real life.
How one can accept such a position and not write at least one single essay/paper on the economics behind the game is a mystery to me.
(you know, really basic economics/business administration stuff - comparing the transferability/comparability of results won in EVE, in traditional experimental settings and RL observations; how different incentive systems work out in EVE; risk attitudes in relation to character age/income/assets/RL info; formation/structure of production/consumption schedules; how interest rates on in-game loans are formed; if/how people react to perceived/real inflation/deflation; corporate self-organization in EVE: types of organization in large alliances (functional, divisional, matrix, ??), average levels of horizontal/vertical integration, labor compensation schemes, structure/viability of insurance in the form of ship replacement programs, how are principal-agent problems solved within corporations ("trust" is the keyword when describing EVE) ...)
I guess Dr. EyjoG has to be really good at his job as CSM nanny or something...
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Mr Domiel
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:38:00 -
[75]
I think that regardless if you agree with the OP on the subject or not, it is clear that
A) the EvE economy is player driven and B) the EvE economy is a vital part of the game. So from that perspective should there not be a seat or 2 on the CSM for an economy focused individual? just a sayin...
If there is someone currently on the CSM that is filling that role (i do not keep track sorry) has he/she brought similar concernes to light and or should the OP not take this up with that person and maybe get more real results. Or is the OP not intrested in getting results and is just venting / drawing out CCP Dr.EyjoG to have a discussion with the OP on the forums.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:39:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 19:45:33
@ Cyaxares II : well said !
Originally by: Oddymandius
Originally by: Akita T
What followed after "CCP Dr.EyjoG" was brought on board can best be described as a series of economic disasters, in terms of the game's economic stability.
Icelandic economists.
ROFL... my belly, it hurts 
Originally by: Aineko Macx
You can slam Akita as much as you want, the fact remains that some of the statements in the QENs reveal a huge lack of knowledge and understanding. That alone already legitimizes Akitas rant.
Thank you too.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Akita T
...Of course you don't "force" people into lowsec/0.0 - you make it so they WANT to go to lowsec/0.0 !
And how exactly do you do that ? Do you reduce the risk ? HELL NO ! You increase the rewards !...
This is where we differ in opinions, for the most part. As it stands lo sec is a death trap. No matter how much better the rewards are in lo sec over hi sec (and by the way, THEY ARE) if you spend more time trying not to die than being productive you've completely lost the point of being in lo sec in the first place.
PvP is _not_ always its own reward, no matter how much that excuse (that players crafted to minimize the impact of CCP's inability to maintain lowsec's profitability) has gained in popularity.
PvP should NOT only be about mindlessly beating somebody else, anybody else for that matter, that's just "gankbearing".
Proper and satisfactory PvP is achieved when you both stand to gain or lose something meaningful, the higher the stakes on both sides the better.
Yes, you can argue that once upon a time, the population of EVE was overall lower, so that more people could go there with slightly less risk than nowadays.
But they would have never really bothered to go there if the rewards were not better !
The risk might have been lower, granted, but then again... THE RISK WAS HIGHER THAN IN HIGHSEC.
If we use your logic, then nobody should have bothered to go to lowsec even then.
But they did, in greater numbers than they do now.
Obviously, your implied assumption that "higher potential rewards do not make more people take more risks" is therefore false.
Think of it like market pricing - the risk/reward pair is similar to the supply/demand pair, and the number of people that venture in those particular risky areas is analogous to the price the item will have on the market.
For every potential risk, there's a potential reward level where a particular individual WOULD go and just "risk it" - statistically speaking, the better the reward/risk ratio, the more people will go in an area with a certain risk level.
It's really not rocket science.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:52:00 -
[77]
tbh I think he has a cool name, that alone gives him major bonus points
Secure 3rd party service |
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 18:46:56
Originally by: AdmiralJohn
Really, you can go about trying to fix things in the game without coming across like an giant d-bag, because that's what you're doing.
Oh, I am sorry if I sound like a "d-bag", how exactly would YOU sound after 4+ years of (mostly) politely giving suggestions just to see (not always, but often enough) THE EXACT OPPOSITE being implemented, with the immediate effect of MAKING THINGS WORSE, the very things you warned them about ?
Is there some reason CCP should listen to you more than they listen to somebody else (e.g. an economist they *hired*).
Did you sign some other version of EULA than the rest of the player base? One that includes a right to have a certain number of suggestion implemented?
There are a number of people who see the technical situation just as critical as you appear to see the economic situation.
You know what these people get told when writing such a posting:
"It's CCP's game - so they must know best"
"It's pushing technological limits - don't try to apply your small-world-experience"
"Bugs happen!"
"Go run your own game when you think you can do it better"
Sorry, but your posting won't change a thing...
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:05:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 20:07:48
Originally by: Ban Doga
Is there some reason CCP should listen to you more than they listen to somebody else (e.g. an economist they *hired*).
Not to me, to a LOT of people of other saying more or less the same thing, people that know what they're talking about.
Or, better said, I expect the guy they hired to "do the stuff" to at least ENGAGE IN OCCASIONAL CONVERSATIONS with the people who have consistently proven to know more about the things he talks about than he does.
That, or start showing he LEARNED what he needs to know about what he's talking.
Quote:
Did you sign some other version of EULA than the rest of the player base? One that includes a right to have a certain number of suggestion implemented?
I don't recall any point where it says "thou shall never disagree with any CCP employees" nor "thou shall not voice your opinions".
Quote:
There are a number of people who see the technical situation just as critical as you appear to see the economic situation. You know what these people get told when writing such a posting
Those people could have not proven they understand the technical aspects better than CCP.
On the other hand, a significant number of people HAVE proven to understand the economic situation better than CCP as a whole.
If that means the guys at CCP that know their stuff are ignored, or that CCP has nobody that knows better, I'm not sure which scenario is worse.
Quote:
Sorry, but your posting won't change a thing...
Probably not, it hasn't done much in the past either.
One can still try.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:06:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/02/2010 20:07:17
Originally by: Ban Doga
'It's pushing technological limits - don't try to apply your small-world-"experience"'
I fixed this a bit for you, because I want to point out that overwhelmingly the people making technical/code suggestions are ignorant and/or armchair coders. You get some kid that's barely out of college, or someone that's been creating a GUI interface in Visual Basic to track an IP address telling everyone that the problem is so simple. Except that it's not, and anyone that's worked on a large project can trivially tell you this.
The key difference here is that the players already have a large amount of the "raw data" for how the economy works, and have successfully predicted many trends in the economy when changes are announced. Dr E even acknowledges Akita's threadnaught in MD on the Techni price that sparked all of the speculative trading.
We know next to nothing about how the servers are coded, and quite a lot about how the economy operates - don't try to pretend that the suggestions are even close to the same in scope or accuracy.
But, I agree. This post won't change anything.
-Liang
ed: grammar
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Sacred Templars
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:09:00 -
[81]
It sounds to me like most of Akita's points are down to bad balancing by the developers rather than a faulty economic model.
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Oddymandius
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:14:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Akita T
How come he's almost never even tried to engage in discussions with the MD regulars crowd ?
No. Too easy.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:17:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Doctor Penguin
It sounds to me like most of Akita's points are down to bad balancing by the developers rather than a faulty economic model.
I suppose you meant "economic system", not "economic model".
The bad balancing is caused by a lack of understanding of the economy, which lead to an incomplete/incorrect economic model which might have been used to determine the proper tweaks.
Existing economic system + bad understanding of it -> bad economic model for forecasting purposes -> bad tweaks implemented.
Simple.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:23:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Akita T
PvP is _not_ always its own reward, no matter how much that excuse (that players crafted to minimize the impact of CCP's inability to maintain lowsec's profitability) has gained in popularity.
PvP should NOT only be about mindlessly beating somebody else, anybody else for that matter, that's just "gankbearing".
Yet this is precisely what lo sec has become. It's become the place to hang out if all you're interested in is making a killboard look pretty.
Quote:
Proper and satisfactory PvP is achieved when you both stand to gain or lose something meaningful, the higher the stakes on both sides the better.
What exactly do gankers have to lose when they encounter that miner in the belt or the PVE-fit battleship in deadspace?
Quote:
Yes, you can argue that once upon a time, the population of EVE was overall lower, so that more people could go there with slightly less risk than nowadays.
But they would have never really bothered to go there if the rewards were not better !
The risk might have been lower than it is now, granted, but then again... THE RISK WAS HIGHER THAN IT WAS IN HIGHSEC.
If we use your logic, then nobody should have bothered to go to lowsec even then.
That's not my logic and quite frankly can't understand how you even arrived to that conclusion. You said it yourself. The risk was lower when the population was lower. There were less asshats in lo sec. There was risk in lo sec, but it wasn't a signed sentence as it is today.
Quote:
Obviously, your implied assumption that "higher potential rewards do not make more people take more risks" is therefore false.
No. My assumption is that there comes a point when the risks are so high and inevitable that the rewards aren't worth it from an economic standpoint. I believe lo sec has reached that point.
Quote:
Think of it like market pricing - the risk/reward pair is similar to the supply/demand pair, and the number of people that venture in those particular risky areas is analogous to the price the item will have on the market.
For every potential risk, there's a potential reward level where a particular individual WOULD go and just "risk it" - statistically speaking, the better the reward/risk ratio, the more people will go in an area with a certain risk level.
It's really not rocket science.
There is a difference between RISK and guaranteed losses. For the PVE player lo sec is a gamble that over the years has become more and more a guaranteed loss. It used to be that you could control some of the parameters that would lead you to lose. But lo sec mechanics weigh too much in favor of the gankers. And it doesn't help much that a lot of these gankers don't really care much for anything but kills for their killboard. Unfortunately, until this mentality changes, lo sec will remain the cesspool it is today. And consequently, hi sec will seem more attractive to the casual player.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:24:00 -
[85]
Yet another excellent economic discussion thread where we won't see a post or comment from the actual economist on staff.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:25:00 -
[86]
Not touching this one. The flaws in EVE's economy are there for all to see... but we all know game balance > realism, right?
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:35:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/02/2010 20:43:55
Originally by: Wadaya
Yet another excellent economic discussion thread where we won't see a post or comment from the actual economist on staff.
Business as usual... they at least let it open and removed some spam.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
[...]My assumption is that there comes a point when the risks are so high and inevitable that the rewards aren't worth it from an economic standpoint. I believe lo sec has reached that point.
[...]
There is a difference between RISK and guaranteed losses. For the PVE player lo sec is a gamble that over the years has become more and more a guaranteed loss. It used to be that you could control some of the parameters that would lead you to lose. But lo sec mechanics weigh too much in favor of the gankers. And it doesn't help much that a lot of these gankers don't really care much for anything but kills for their killboard. Unfortunately, until this mentality changes, lo sec will remain the cesspool it is today. And consequently, hi sec will seem more attractive to the casual player.
Imagine a completely unrealistic situation, where you have "ore X" available in lowsec in abundance, and for some reason it pays 1 bil ISK/hour to mine it steadily, and even L3 missions would pay up to 5 bil ISK/hour in rewards, while the best ore in highsec would barely pay 5 mil ISK/hour, and the best mission-runners would only make around 25 mil ISK/hour in highsec running L4s.
Can you honestly tell me the lowsec regions wouldn't be CHOCK-FULL of people ?!? Really ?!?
Now if you concede that this completely unrealistic scenario (which is unrealistic for a wide variety of reasons) would result in a very high lowsec population... then you just conceeded that yes, indeed, there is some reward that would attract a lot of people in an area where their death would be all but unavoidable after a short while.
It all comes down to how long until you die, and how much of your income you can keep.
If the overall number (after subtracting all possible/expected losses, that being the number that is variable from person to person) comes up higher in lowsec than in highsec, then you WILL go to lowsec, eventually.
The more people go there, the lower the risks get, because there are a lot less predators "per prey head" all of a sudden, so the perceived risks go down even faster. The "breakeven" point for all of this is much lower than you seem to think it might be.
They could ALSO lower the risks by, say, removing penalties from shooting people with below-zero standings instead of just people with -5 or below standings, or they could implement many other mechanisms that would allow people in lowsec to mount pre-emptive strikes for defense purposes, but without an incentive to GO there in the first place, it would be quite pointless.
Originally by: Malcanis
Not touching this one. The flaws in EVE's economy are there for all to see... but we all know game balance > realism, right?
The problem being, game balance is NOT being served here either by any of the recent changes, quite the opposite.
I couldn't care less about realism, I'm all about game balance on this one.
Seems like "the Doc" is all for as much pseudo-realism as possible here though, without a smidgen of concern for game balance.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Mr Ignitious
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:38:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Wadaya
Yet another excellent economic discussion thread where we won't see a post or comment from the actual economist on staff.
We at least got CCP to get rid of the "first!" posts, that counts for something right?
I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:44:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
We know next to nothing about how the servers are coded, and quite a lot about how the economy operates - don't try to pretend that the suggestions are even close to the same in scope or accuracy.
I did not try to compare the suggestion(s) in this thread to other suggestions in other threads. Please don't read something into my postings I did not write.
BTW: the only suggestion in the OP was "force him to play the game or fire him" which sounds a lot like "... telling everyone that the problem is so simple. Except that it's not, and anyone that's worked on a large project can trivially tell you this." to me.
The fact that everyone thinks they know something - a certain thing - better than someone else is not really changing anything; and by that I don't mean Akita is wrong! (don't conclude I mean "B" just because I said "NOT A" - I could still mean "NOT B" or even "C")
My whole point was "you're just another player, you're just another opinion on the forum, get over it already - no one will get fired because you write a text on a forum"
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:46:00 -
[90]
Obviously he won't get fired, and nobody would actually force him to "learn his stuff", but one can at least hope it might hit a "pride nerve" somewhere along the road in somebody who can do something, triggering some mild attitude change or whatever.
You get the idea...
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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